JPF Home Page Forums Musician Gear and Techniques Bass and Drum Forum The human rhythm section: Man vs machine.

I feel there is a real symbiosis that occurs when the rhythm section is made up of humans who actually like the song they are playing. Lots of little subtle accents and early or late hits let the bass and drums tell a story as well as just keep place and keep time.

Some might say a program has feel because there is a human to program it. To me that is like having sex with a toy. Occasionally interesting, but it can't take the place of the real thing. If it's a program, all the players have to play to it. If it's a real rhythm section, there can be a dialogue among the musicians.

I have used drum machines and loops for demos, you can end up with some nice stuff, but once again, you've got to go with the groove they hand you. I've heard some bass programs that aren't bad, but they don't cut the note off occasionally, leaving a window for the snare, nor do they use a little fingernail occasionally to make a note "stand out". I've even heard some major label stuff that sounded real good...but:

1. I could tell it was sampled and/or synthesized.

2. It was most likely programmed by a real musician, so it didn't save money, it just kept everything sounding "even" in the mix.

Well, I guess it's obvious I come down on the side of the Human.

What are your thoughts on this?

Mike,

I think a lot of folks would prefer live drums but so few can find live drummers to perform with. I went out and bought a huge drum kit, a large latin percussion set up and a host of little hand percussion tools for my set up in the hopes it would make it easier to find live drummers to come and jam with us while we wrote songs and recorded demos in years past. But the reality is that there are FAR more guitar, keyboard, bass and singers out there than capable drummers. And average guitar player or keyboard player can still blend in with a song and keep it going. And average or below drummer who can't keep good time makes it impossible to move forward. I think that is where drum machines become a less desirable but last resort option.

Fortunately for guitar players, they still haven't found technology that can be played by a non guitarist which will sound remotely like even a bad guitarist. But in the case of drums, even a hack can program something to keep in time. It's just the nature of the beast.

There are some styles of music where a programmed drummer is desired in the first place. But often even those sound great with live percussion mixed in. I doubt many bands would decline the services of a quality drummer. I really just think it's a case of demand far outweighing supply. When I was active writer/recording, I played keys and programmed drums and my guitarist/co-writer played guitar and bass. I think that's a pretty common scenario for a lot of writers/artists. One last factor is sound control. The new electronic kits have evened things out a bit, but a lot of even basement bands can't have the live drums volume going at night because of neighbors and family. I think the electronic kits and the vast improvement of their play-a-bility have probably evened that issue out a little (plus it's a lot easier to travel with.)

So, if you have spare drummers around, tell them to post here, I bet folks will be all over them. As for bass players.. well. that's another issue.. hahahaha

Brian

I'm one of those guys who can't record live drums in my studio. Some styles I write/demo really almost require programmed drums or drum loops, but other styles really need a live human being. In those situations I've found a pretty good compromise to renting out a bigger studio and bringing in a drummer and kit. There are two REALLY excellent session drummers I know who will take your mix and record live drums as an overdub. It works pretty well since they're both very pro (one used to tour with a major label act with about 10 albums out). It still doesn't provide that human interaction that helps the groove, but you'd be hard-pressed to tell in most cases that it was an overdub. They both are in L.A., but they get tapes/CD/MP3s from all over the country to work with.


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Larry
www.audibleresponse.com

Great perspectives!

Yes, Brian, the invention of the drum machine has allowed songwriters to get drums recorded economically. I have used them, and will continue to use them myself. For years, one of Terri Lynn's and my writer's nights used a live drummer playing an electronic kit, a D4 with triggers, This way we could record the rhythm tracks for demos live at the writer's night and then go in the studio for vocals and acoustic overdubs. This was the way Terri Lynn's album was recorded. I do find modern technology useful, but I like the sound of a wooden golf club and I like to sail with windpower. I'm just an old fart.

And Larry: my buddy Steve Turner, who has played on Travis Tritt and Dolly Parton hits to name a few, is also a programmer and overdubber. He can put drum parts on with any format. Also, Jeremiah Bivens, the son of an old friend of mine,has been showing the ins and outs of programming to many of the "old dog" session drummers, as well as doing much programming himself. I first used an old Roland drum machine in the early 80's to program a set of demos for songwriter Erik Thorson which featured young demo singer, Kathy Mattea. Nashville has lived between mule power and Arthur C. Clarke for a long time.

I guess I just like a real rhythm section. Maybe I'm guilty here of some reverse form of "Argumentum ad Hominum" and am having a knee jerk reaction to "in vitro groovelization".

Finally, I have over 40 drummers in my roll-a-dex (wow, there's another outdated technology...I never thought the slide rule would join the buggy whip!), and most of them are pretty available. I'll make it a project this week to get them joining and posting.

All the Best,
Mike

Mike,

I got a video from a NYC member's band that does Gothic/Industrial dark music and has a lot of naked people on stage and they incorporate buggy whips into their performance... but I digress..

You get brownie points for in-vitro groovelization... = )

I am hoping these new message boards will pump some new blood into posting pool. We still only have about 2500 registered users out of a pool of nearly 19,000 members, so perhaps if we keep this active some new folks will get interested.

If you'd like to be the "moderator" of this board Mike, let me know!

Brian

I don't even have a drum machine, LOL. I enter all my rhythm through notation and it isn't easy entering all those tiny little notes with a mouse. It really makes me appreciate drummers.
JeanB

Hey Jean,
If you are using a mac, check out virtual drummer
www.virtualdrummer.com
I think it's probably the easyest drummer program around. Plus you can export the sounds in either audio or midi.

LOL! Somehow I missed following up on this thread. "In vitro groovelization" is a good one!

I own quite a few drum loops disks but always run them through Recycle to REX-ify them if they didn't come that way. ACIDized loops are also in this same vein although I don't have ACID. Ilio has something similar called "groove control".

The idea is to slice up the groove on the hits and then trigger the slices via midi notes assigned to each "slice". At least this way you can adjust the tempo of grooves and loops to within 10-15 bpm of the original tempo.

I should add that drum loops are even making their way into some of the top country CDs. I've heard them on Jessica Andrews and, I believe Kenny Chesney's latest CDs, just to name a couple off the top of my head.

Last year I wrote a country pop tune that has a country-hiphop bridge section with a rapped vocal - even a little southern drawl in the rap...but no takers yet. All the publishers say it's a bit "too left" of country for them. Maybe I'm just ahead of my time?

Anyways, for all my "real" country (even country pop) demos, I use a REAL drummer - even if I have to import his playing. It's what the Music Row publishers expect to hear - real players. It has to be really good programming to fool 'em.


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Larry
www.audibleresponse.com

The problem that I have run into over the last several months is somewhat self inflicted. For the last couple of years I have mostly been doing studio(home)work. Learning, creating, and in general just having fun. However, being use to the strict timing of using drum machines and loops, I have suffered in the ability to play with a real drummer. Several months ago, old friends and I got back together as a band. More for the enjoyment than anything else. The drummer is not bad. But, I really have a tough time playing with him. I don't know if it is a timing problem that he has. Or, I've just grown intolerant to any variance. Anyone else suffer this problem?
AaV

Hi All,
Well I finally decided to check out the drum message board. I seem to remember a Country Band Leader back in the early 60's, down in Texas that said the Drummer sets the timing for all the musicians when playing shows. Is that how it's being done today in the studio ? I know that tracks are used but it would seem the final track may be wanting if the timing is out of sync with the vocal. I agree with Mike that if the musicians really like a song they are doing it will show in the playing. I have heard the difference in some demos I have had done. I also hear songs on the radio that it seemed nobody cared much for the song and it shows thru in the music. Comments?

I guess I have to agree with the majority, with some exception. I used to be in a rock band, our drummer was fantastic, I mean like really really good, and its amazing just how much impact a great set of drums can have on the emotional movement of a song. Unfortunately as a soloist I am now stuck with cut and paste of the 4 drum kits found on my Yamaha S03 synth. It doesn't replace the real thing, but most should hopefully agree that non human drums can still be made to give movement to music (and even to an extent emotion if you really mess with them), if you don't over do them and try to create a sythetic human behind your music. Good use of the other live percussion and rhythm instruments should compliment what your average listener is concentrating on... the overall hook of the music and the vocalist! Always keep in mind that we are mostly all musicans here, and what we hear in a song is sometimes very different to what non musicians hear in a song, they rarely pull it apart like we do. I have a collection of demo CD which I am almost disgusted with, my friends think I should release them how they are, I reckon they are all deaf! But guess what? They are sonar operators on submarines by day, very far from deaf I can assure you. Although I do think they have selective hearing sometimes...nevermind

Adam McCarthy

I agree with Mike in the fact that a person playing can pick up the rhythmic nuances of the other instruments, and embellish them or become almost invisible to compliment them. For instance, the piano can be an incredible percussion instrument, then adding an extra defining beat to, for instance a 3/4 time with a cabasa, beaded gourd or tambourine, gives a great acoustic sound, without the necessity of a loop or kit. I personally enjoy playing with a loop or kit because I see my challenge as disguising the "canned" aspect that so many listeners complain about, as well as keeping good time. While nothing compares to playing with a real live drummer who is not rhythmicly challenged, I seem to get rave reviews when I play with a loop, because they think it's me making all the rhythm. I almost feel bad taking all the praise, but have you ever given a machine a compliment? You don't even get a smile or a nod for your kind words.

Great stuff, everybody.

Larry, thanks for the info. I'll be moving from exclusively ADAT to a combo with hard disc and midi sometime this decade and I'll be messing with loops.

Loops can be an interface between digital and bio-generated percussion. I work with one drummer who sets loops of percussion instruments, sometimes changing tempos slightly in parts, and uses them as a click-track. Some producers even keep parts of these loops in the mix.

Ray, yes, the drummer (human or digital) is what you play to. Being percussive is exciting, triggering alarm and attention. This is what the average listener uses to guage the time of the piece. As a result,the drummer is always right--even when wrong. The whole band playing to the drummer's time makes the performance "tight". This is related to the dilemna Aav is talking about

When someone gets used to playing to a mechanical or digital click, it "spoils" them, much like karaoke "spoils" singers. I find a common problem among young singers is that they've learned songs with one recording of one performance of the accompaniment. All or most of the vibrations come out of one or two speakers. When a band plays, the vibrations come from all around you. Freaky. Plus, a band can adjust any of the four elements of music (time, tone, pitch, and/or volume), to the singers performance. The singer now exerts some control, and here personality rears its head.

It's the same with playing to machines and loops. I'd recommend getting a drummer friend to play with you for practice, you might even record it so you have a human metronome to practice with. Listen to the hi-hat. A great drummer named Mac Elsonsohn (Cornelius Bros.,Lonnie Mack, John Hartford), taught me to do that. The hi-hat along with the other cymbals give you the drummer's "clock" or "clave". Listen to the hat and anticipate the beat. It's not something that's natural to do because you're giving yourself up to someone else's rhythm. It requires trust, faith, and concentration. You'll find you can lock in with some drummers better than others. Remember. The drummer is always right. Just because you know, or think you know where the beat should be, if you don't follow the drummer it sounds loose and amateurish. To get tight with a drummer you need to work on it. By the way, in bluegrass the banjo is the clock.

Adam, your demos are probably better than you think. When I listen to old recordings I've done, I remember the experience of recording them. This affects me emotionally. It's like when you listen to songs you first heard in your puberty...wow. Your freinds are hearing their friend's songs which adds to their emotional reaction, but that's what music is all about. Their obvious sensitivity makes their opinions more valid.

And hey lady tambourine, ma'am, lot's of musical instruments utilize machinery. Some are machines, some are made by machines. I use a hydroelectric dam here in Nashville everytime I play My G&L 5-string bass or mic up my upright. Performance is the key. Playing to a loop you are often playing to a performance or program of one or two measures. Whether it's been performed or programmed, it was designed by a human. So when you compliment the machine, you compliment the maker. When you compliment the maker you compliment the Maker. You were the one who chose the loop to use. You did this with your talents.

Art is the lie that represents truth. Music represents emotion through imitating laughing, crying, heartbeat; and moving from consonance to dissonance which takes one on a journey of attraction and aversion.

George Burns told Jack Lemmon the secret to acting was honesty. If you can fake that, you've got it made. The secret to music is the emotional response that it elicits. If, (and this can only done by human design), you move people's emotions, you've got it made.

I would agree with you. Regardless of what instrument you play, music is a human, emotional endeavor. From a practical standpoint, programmed music often sounds lifeless and robotic. From a soul standpoint, using a machine in place of a human being in a musical situation is disgusting. Machines don't care about your music. They just run a program. It's about as soulful as your utility bill.

I always used the finger drum method, (using good keyboards), which enables a human, hands on feel, while being able to put percussion tracks on our demos in our non drum friendly home studio/office, (12' X 10' room). I don't set anything, and just play the bass drum and snare at the same time, (fingers), along to the song, with fills, then adding symbol parts and other percussion on later tracks. I know have real drums, (old Rogers), but without a proper setup and mics for the drums, it sounds like a porch band, nevermind a garge band sound! So, until we get the right mics, mixer, and sound control, it's finger drumming. I'd prefer real drums of course, as in everything else, but you got to go with what works at the time.


John

I don't see anything wrong w/ using my Alesis SR-16 for drum loops. It kicks butt. Real drummers can't play the patterns. It gets the job done. I won't depend on inexperienced drummers that can't play @ tempo or drag the beat and drop sticks. I agree, finding a qualified drummer is hard. But, the important thing is the song....the big picture, not a small part of the picture like a drum loop. It's the groove or vibe that's important. Yeh, a real drum set can really make a song sound better, I'll agree.. but, loops are the next best thing for me... www.curciomusic.com

[This message has been edited by Curcio (edited 01-17-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brian Austin Whitney:
[b]Mike,

I think a lot of folks would prefer live drums but so few can find live drummers to perform with. I went out and bought a huge drum kit, a large latin percussion set up and a host of little hand percussion tools for my set up in the hopes it would make it easier to find live drummers to come and jam with us while we wrote songs and recorded demos in years past. But the reality is that there are FAR more guitar, keyboard, bass and singers out there than capable drummers. And average guitar player or keyboard player can still blend in with a song and keep it going. And average or below drummer who can't keep good time makes it impossible to move forward ---------------------------------------------

Hey If I am ever in your area I would like to stop in and play your drum kit. I don't have to be in your area. Just let me know if I can help. Just For Poor Folks.

The Little Drummer boy.







[This message has been edited by Yanko (edited 02-11-2004).]

Right now I kow more drummers than anything. My problem is the good ones are too busy and the others aren't worth the aggravation. I've been in two bands with the same guy. he claims to have been a drummer since high school but you couldn't tell it. I prefer a drum machine to this particular individual. I play very well with programmed drums, especially when recording.

Just like everybody I prefer to play with a live section, but what's the point if the guy can't keep time or insists on throwing in fills at ridiculously odd moments? Could it be me? Nah, I've played with real pros. When I was a beginner I was often aware of little things the experienced drummers I played with did to push or pull me into the pocket. As a Bass player I've learned lots of little inside things to throw at a drummer who's drifting or missing the pocket. These tricks go from pumping straight 1/16's or 1/8's to playing the simplest of lines to meet on the one. But this cat just doesn't listen. Yet his feelings are always hurt when he finds I did a project without him.

Sorry about the rant. It's been building up for awhile. I guess I'm spoiled because the first drummer i ever played with was a jazz trained gospel drummer. I learned more about playing bass from him than from any bass player. He no longer plays secular music. Sigh

What a hard subject. Being a Drummer myself.{I play the other typical string instruments as well} I am somewhat biased when it comes to drums. While I do own a drum machine myself. It's rare that I use it other than for a scratch track or click. The sampled sounds for me always fall just a little short of what I want. It's not real enough. I'm used to using a click when recording. It's not a must have. It just makes changing things or fixing things easier.

It is true that good drummers are getting more and more difficult to find. I rarely gig on drums nowadays myself due to becoming a guitar player. I am one of those drummers that likes to drive the pocket. I'm more interested in reinforcing the song than doing a bunch of fills. So the groove is what is most important to me.

Loops and machines are here to stay though. They are too easy to use. Drums on the other hand, require a firm & steady hand by the player along with a very good set of mics. There are numbers of ways in which to mic them and track them. It's 100% labor intensive and time consuming to make it happen. And I wouldn't blame anyone for using loops and drum machines instead. Unlike most folks, I am just lucky enough to own and be able to play various instruments well enough {debatable yes}to put some solid recordings together. Along with some recording gear.

I do hope that drummers wont be completely replaced in the future. Drums are the very first instrument known to humans,yes? And they are fun. There's nothing like a real drum kit. Electronic kits for live performances do nothing for me. Like I said, I'm biased.

For me, the music played with others is all about communication. That is something I learned early on from some good drum instructors and years of live playing. I learned to listen to what each player is saying with his or her instrument. We communicate back and forth. Knowing when the guitar player is about to take a lead, anticipating the build-up to a bridge, with out communication, the song just lays there.

Good topic.

Kris Karr

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/kriskarrmusic.htm

Good points Kris. A good live drummer contributes much more than just the drum part: feel, groove, dialog with the other players, the ability to move around in the song. The band I'm in now is primarily a classic rock cover band, so the songs have been played a bazillion times and everyone knows them. But everytime we play them, they're a little different because we have "conversations". We're not reading the book nor reciting it from memory; we're discussing it. And the dialogs work so well because we listen more than we "talk". A drum machine can't participate in such a dialog. I've been with these guys for about a year and a half, and we've had a grand total of 5 practices! We have over 100 songs in our repertoire, and we nail every one every time. By contrast, the last band I was in was simply a collection of 5 guys all playing their instruments at the same time - no listening, no conversing. They had to practice twice a week just to remember the songs. If the singer came back in one measure late, the whole thing would crumble.

On a parting note, if anyone in the South-Central PA / Northern MD areas needs a good steady conversationalist on the drums, whether it's live last-minute fill-in or studio collaboration, give me a shout. I'm not nearly as busy as I'd like to be.

Rick Taormino

I'll be the first to agree that talented live musicians playing all at once (not overdubbed) is what usually produces the best sound. But after over 20 years of trying to find compatible musicians with compatible schedules and goals and monetary issues, I realized that unless I did it myself, it wasn't going to happen. Then you have to add in the other factors mentioned, such as sound level, equipment quality, crosstalk between mics, need for overdubs, etc., rhythm machines start looking pretty good.

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Stone Marmot
www.stonemarmot.com
Stone Marmot on Soundclick
Alternative pop-rock music:
Definitely rock, somewhat pop, but a bit more experimental.

Oh, this is so long winded on my part. The variables are these:

1. The drummers ability and sound. These two things are hand in hand. I have never met any musician who plays any instrument where the two factors are separate. Usually the player as far as drummers go can make a set of keys sound good if they have the ability. The player makes the instrument. Not the other way around.

2. Drums cost twice what a good guitar and amp usually do. And take either a lot of microphones or a few really good ones. Again though, it all goes back to the ability & sound factor. The old saying "Garbage in, Garbage out" on a recorded track is solid as stone. When we have to use a bad track and mix it with every possible fix known to modern times we call it; "Polishing a Turd".
And it's futile in the end. It just plain stinks.

The bottom line is; the line between art and economics has become a fine line due to the advances in electronic technology. As it has replaced so many workers here in the United States. Music technology is starting to replace "people" as well. Those are more of our jobs and culture lost. It's a shame really. Even today, a drum machine or electronic drum kit simply cannot do some of the things a real drummer can. And vice versa.

I've heard smooth Jazz tracks with drum machines on them. Carlos Santana's last album. It's so obvious. I couldn't listen to it. And all the latest virtual kits I've played on are mediocre at best. I am the minority though. A solid drummer with an ever shrinking job market. That's why I learned to play guitar. Just look at the over crowded flood of guitarists. No one stands out anymore. That's economics in a capitalist system though, or evolution, or both.

What is truely sad to me, is our ever speeding path away from physical social interaction as musicians and people to the singular "me and my way" culture that we are surely becoming.

It's in everything we do now. I used to pump gasoline and work on cars at my fathers service station when I was young. I knew every single customer he had and met someone new every day because we all talked. Then thanks to Nixon, the first 7-11 came to town. Within a period of 7 years all of the service stations with our local mechanics were closed. People had to pump their own gas and wash their own windows. There conversation was no more, as well as the jobs of countless people.

Like your DJs, you don't get to talk to your mechanic anymore. They put you in a room with magazines and XM radio to keep you out of their hair. And they charge you double for it. The work they do is not better either. It's assembly line mechanics manufactured by share holders at the big three and others. And if you don't watch them like a hawk, the car won't get fixed, you'll still get charged, and you'll be told it's something else.

I find the same true of the music on commercial radio. They aren't talking to us anymore. They are simply feeding us noise 98% of the time because they can. If I am going to listen, it's going to be to real people. Not Clear Channel.

As far as developing a song goes for songwriters. I totally understand the need for these advances in technology and the cost factors involved. It simply makes sense to use them.

I may ironicly see the day when asked by a future grandchild. Grandpa, what was your first instrument? I'll say "drums". They'll point to the musical interface in their modern home and say; "I can play drums too"! The look on their faces will be 100% puzzlement when I tell them that "no", you don't understand. I actually hit "real drums" like in the museum with sticks and it was "my job". They'll think I'm nuts. Much like now,{that's not what I meant} when I've told my son that I used to pump gas and work on cars at my Fathers service station and that there were no computers or video games when I was his age. He just scratches his head in disbelief and says; "Whatever Dad". "Wanna play Nintendo"?

In closing, if you are a drummer reading this. Learn to play to a click. It is a great ability to have. It does "not" make you or the song more mechanical. It opens up new doors in playing and will teach you what solid tempo, pushing the beat, and driving a band is all about. It's a great way to practice fills as well. Eventually you won't even notice it's there.

Have a great day.

P.S. Drum machines and their pulsating counters can't flip sticks, drool, or fling beads of sweat on everyone in a live performance......"yet". Scary huh?
Talk to people while there are still people to talk to. It's your only chance!

Likewise if you are needing Twin Cities based solid studio drummer for funk, rock, or country, or the occasional fill in gig, check me out here. I am a multi-instrumentalist.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/kriskarrmusic.htm

Kriss,

Your point about less human interaction is becoming the norm in every walk of life. The most the net and cable become ways to get info, entertainment and to communicate, the less reason anyone has to meet someone face to face. That's a big reason we started doing Roadtrips to get people off their butts and out into a venue together, if only for 1 night a year during a JPF Roadtrip tour. It's amazing how hard it is to get together face to face even with nearby friends anymore.. we're being trained through repetition to put technology between us and everyone else.

Brian

I've only read the first post of this thread, not all the replies, but I'll just weigh in saying I think drums loops, bass loops, and loops in general stink. I don't play drums or bass, but I can tell almost instantly when I'm listening to them even on a recording. I have the same negative opinion of programmed keyboard parts and synthesized guitars.

I am fortunate in that I usually have a band to play with, but when I don't, I have chosen to play my piano by myself rather than use a machine to play "with" me. (More like I play along with a machine!) I have opted for someone to play bongos or handheld percussion instruments when a drum set was not possible.

I realize some people use the loops for demos and stuff, but to me it always sounds cheezy and boring, no matter how hard they work at getting it to sound good or how fancy the program is.

Why do people spend money on machines to "play" instruments with them, instead of finding real live people to play with? It's a heck of a lot more fun to play with another person, they bring their own musicianship into the song, and you don't have to pay to jam with them.

I don't mean to be offensive. I realize not everybody is able to find good people to play with. I just think it's better to invest time/money/energy in making real live music than to spend money on second-rate canned stuf--if you have any choice at all about it.

There is no substitute for a real live musician. Even a mediocre drummer is better than a loop, and a real drummer can get better and better over time. Machines can't cut it. --Jean

I agree with Jean's sentiments except for the comment above. In my estimation, the only thing worse than a mediocre drummer is a lousy drummer. I would prefer a drum machine to a middling drummer any day. Drummers, like all other musicians, are great when they know what they are doing. But a guy who can't keep time, lacks dynamics, plays too loud, ignores the other players, yada, yada....THAT guy needs to be replaced by a machine. Or a better drummer.



[This message has been edited by TrumanCoyote (edited 06-18-2004).]

I used to work with a really good drummer. He would have been a great drummer, but everything had to be his way. If we were playing an improvised section, everyone had to work with his groove, he wouldn't follow...only lead. He might as well have been a drum machine.

Mike

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Mike Dunbar Music

Okay, let me define "mediocre." I didn't mean "can't keep time." I just meant a drummer who has a good sense of rhythm, knows good music when she hears it, keeps steady time, but may not have the "palate" of choices that a more experienced drummer has, so stays out or plays more simply where a more seasoned drummer would be doing more interesting stuff. That's what I meant by mediocre. What you describe is what I'd call a really bad (maybe useless) drummer. Some people only play drums because they think it's cool or fun, not because they have any talent. What you describe I would say is WAY worse than a drum machine. I'd still choose no drummer at all over a drum machine, but that's just me. --Jean

I can't play drums for anything. But I ALWAYS hear them a particular way in my head. How do I get a real drummer to hear what I hear? I use the machine to help the man.
When I'm preparing a song for recording, if I want the drums to sound a particular way, I program them on my old trusty ENSONIQ keyboard. Then, I make a demo tape of the song for a real drummer to listen to. He'll get a better feel for what I want, then when we go into the studio, he can play it "his way" with the feel I'm after. To me, it's the best of both worlds.

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Tom Tracy
www.soundclick.com/tomtracy

Fascinating thread, folks. Here's another two cents for the Beer Fund:

After the Dodson Drifters broke up, our bass player went to work for a country-rock band. 4 pieces--lead, rhythm, bass, and Sam The Electric Drummer. Sam was cool. Always kept time, always followed directions, never had to be sobered up--all those things you wish you could find in a live drummer (sorry)--plus Sam never complained when the rest of the band split the take 3 ways.

I figured Sam was the wave of the future--being able to split the take 3 ways instead of 4 was a powerful motivator--but I still missed the drummer being a Real Human Bean. There's a creativity and an intuitive interaction I can't describe but can *feel* that you just can't get out of a machine--even if you do have to live with them not being able to keep time and having occasionally to sober 'em up.

When I was a freshly-landed-in-Oregon hippie, one of our roommates was a rock 'n' roll drummer just starting to get noticed and in demand. He couldn't keep time worth [expletive deleted], but he was the only drummer I ever heard who wasn't making tons of money who could play a drum solo for 15 minutes straight that was actually interesting to listen to for the entire 15 minutes. Sam The Electric Drummer could never do that. Sam may have been predictable, but he was also damn boring.

These days, I play mostly acoustic music on Fridays, and with a rock 'n' roll band Sunday nights at the local tavern. The Sunday night drummer is a person, and he's not bad, and if I stand 20 or 30 feet away, I can even sometimes hear myself think. (That's the other problem I see with live drummers. They're waydam loud.)

The Friday Night Group mostly doesn't have a drummer; oh, a couple have showed up to play with the group on occasion, but most of 'em will lose most of the percussion section pretty quick if they're smart--as an acoustic group, nearly any drumming will drown everybody out, unless it's the real quiet, kinda swishy jazz stuff. One drummer who came down quite a bit eventually ended up bringing only a set of spoons--and that was really all the percussion we needed.

Anyway. I mostly don't have any use for a drummer (sorry, all drummers)--but when I want one, I'd rather have the human kind, even with all their human limitations. (And I know Sam ain't gonna have any feelings hurt by my saying that, 'cause he ain't *got* any feelings.)

Joe

I agree with you because as a bassist myself,
I tend to prefer live drummers over drum machines because of the communication we have. Live interaction is very important to
me because it forces you to listen to your
bandmates,(i.e. time,rhythm,dynamics,etc.)
to let the music breath and make it more human instead of being a slave to a loop or a drum machine that you can't control on the fly. Communication is the key to making great
music. That's why I tend to listen to the good music of yesterday, but learn from the music of today in order to make it better.


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Levelle Allen

Just like to chime in on this ever never ending debate on man versus machine. I have played in bands for years and had a lot of fun. Problem now is finding drummers who are willing to go out and practice at any one time and also play private parties and such that might have a problem with room or having to be low on the volume (within reason). My area (Battle Creek Mi)has a low low supply of drummers willing to go out and do this kind of stuff. Most are in it for the sit down and nail down your equipment for the duration kind of gig. I tried that and it got to be very boring sitting in one place for too long. I then decided to take my laptop and add commercial MIDI files stripped down to just the drum part. I then add the Bass part myself and then sing and play guitar to that live. It took some time to get the nerve up to go out like that but I just took the plunge and did it. I have not looked back since. I strive to get the song as close to the original as possible so playing to a virtual drummer makes sense to me. I have had very good feedback on my solo act and have stayed busy. Like we all say "nothing like a good live drummer anytime" but I am tired of waiting for the drummer to show up when needed. Sorry for the rant but just had to explain my side.

Banditt

Hi guys. The last reply was 8-11-2005. I've read about 75% of the replies and will be back some time this week to post another reply.

Here's an idea. Why not include a sample of what you are speaking about. If it's a live session with machine and/or human, or even a session with machine and/or human.

My music discipline background is symphonic/orchestral ensemble, though Jazz, Latin, Afro, Funk, and other generes find their way into the mix. So for the most part, I write out exactly what I wish the drummenr(s) to play either notated or with rhythm slashes and discriptive notes indicating a stlye, or mallets or brushes or whatever. My charts for the most part are numbered with call letters. It's my symphonic upbringing :-)

Any way, I'll be back with examples of my drum machine tracks. I don't use prefab drum patterns. I program (use my fingers to play the different drum pads). There are some repeating patterns with a few differences added (like fills and stuff). But for the most part, I use my fingers to create the trap set sound and accents to give it a realistic feel. It takes a long time to program, but hey what's time?

Other than musicians used for theatrical performances (musicals or dramatic productions)I have never had a consistantly great bunch of people all in the same room and at the same level except for the musicians I borrowed from the Navy (stationed in New Orleans 1992). They were awesome. They not only read the charts, but were able to play with my synth with out the benefit of a really great monitor system.

When I come back I will post a few selections and invite your feedback. I hope you all will do the same. This is great fun and I can sure learn alot from you pro drummers out there.

Peace,
Tee (flutist/composer)
http://www.latteta.com


[This message has been edited by Latteta Theresa (edited 01-19-2006).]

Hi Tee,

That's a great idea. My solo album has percussion instruments which I played, that's on my cd baby site: www.cdbaby.com/cd/mikedunbar

Also, through my website you can hear Steve Turner on Dakota's link. Steve played on most of Travis Tritt's hits and many of Dolly Parton's cds. Through the Bob Frank link, you can hear the drummer for the North Mississippi Allstars, as well as some players from the Squirrel Nut Zippers. On JPF Nashville Co-ordinator Terri Lynn's link, you'll hear d-drums played live with a Drum Cat by either Peter Young or Steve Holland. Margie Cumbie's stuff is live drumming by Ed Glass or Terri Lynn's drummer, Kevin Kathey.

I don't have anything online with sequenced drums, though I've been playing with Proteus and an LM9 here at home. There's a nice analog kit sound on the Proteus.

All the Best,
Mike



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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

Hi Guys,
I didn't have much time to upload the others, but there's always a tomorrow. :-) I would appreciate your feed back on this tune.

UPDATE: I've decided to come back with these tunes and remixes with updated sounds and equipment. I am enjoying reading your feed back.

Tee,
http://www.latteta.com

[This message has been edited by Latteta Theresa (edited 01-19-2006).]

There's a big difference in programmed drums verses performed drums. Dynamics! Pure and simple. You cannot program dynamics with realtime performance by tapping, moving quantizing or anything the like. Like any other instrument, there are the finer points that can't replace human emotion, feel, elements of style and uniqueness. When you are swinging drum sticks against the drum head, cymbals or anything on the set, there is a feel, know-how, and an enegy handling the sticks that all gets invested into the entire drumset as a whole instrument. You can use the tip of a nylon tipped stick to play the top of the Hi Hats or the wood against the side of the Hi Hats. if you breath the hi hat, you might want to watch and play the hi hat where it counts when breathing it. On a ride cymbal, you can use the tip of a nylon stick to ride on top of the cymbal or more on the wood to play the cone to get a different sound. See, we don't just bang at one velocity on one spot of our instruments. Even if we have the fanciest of drum machines their variables will never add up to all the variables that a human player can give. True there are players that are at different ends of the spectrum when it comes to this point, but thats just the difference between a good drummer and a great drummer. If I decide to change velocity on an instrument it is done in realtime not as an afterthought or forethought. A drummer has the unique ability to let his or her mind go while playing and slow down time so to speak and allow for variables in realtime that cannot be programmed. When you program drum machines, you tend to think of each individual instrument (which is fine) but to make the next leap and treat the individual intruments as a whole entity working together to create a feel and movement, is not something you cannot program. One very tall tale sign that drums are programmed is that there are certain beats, fills or patterns that are un-natural by the very basic natur of playing. I have a guitar player friend that told me once, that he knows when drums are programmed right away because after years of playing with drummers, he knows what a natural fill will be and a very unatural one. He tells me "there is no way a real drummer would do that". That usually means it is outside the realm of normal to the listener. It is bas enough when a drummer programs drums, it is even worse when someone who doesn't play drums tries to program them. I do drum tracks for artists over internet collaborations. My favorite thing to do is listen to a song idea from someone and break down the parts on paper. I write my drum parts based on the song's parts and what the song lends itself to. Which brings up another thing. If you cannot provide a drum chart or a drum beat of some sort, then you did not write the entire song. Writing drum rhythms is part of song writing. There is an exception to this. I have had songs that have such a strong bass pattern, that I was fornced into certain rhythm patterns. I believe this gave me enough idea where I knew where to go with the drums.
For whatever its worth.
Tommy

I could'nt agree more that the programmed drum or any programmed sound being different. I originally wanted to play bass.
But then I found it limiting with what I wanted to play with just the bass.
My father bought me a keyboard. Then I bought another. Then I bought an acoustic guitar. And soon after an electric.
I have used the guitars to play bass along with the bass sound on my keyboard.

I saw a documentary about Genesis to where Mike Rutherford used some kind of kit onstage to program bass.
Can't think of the name of it, but it looked like some kind of foot pedal.

As far as looped drums, it's so easy to alter a sound, it's hard to tell if the drum sound and drumming is real, at least to me.
But if I really listen, one sounds a bit more artificial and less emotive.

I always like to play by hand, with the excepiton of a couple of tracks where I repeat the rythmn I create and repeat through a media player.
I have a keyboard with all kinds of percussion sounds and I finger tap the keys.
Although I would like to get percussion instruments.
As silly as it sounds, I have even taped coffee cans together and used the lids for cymbles.
I can't feel very bluesy or jazzy with a programmed rythmn.

Interesting topic.

Matt

Boy Howdy Mike!

Great question.

Here's the truth.

The drum loop and sample has lent itself to some great writing, but very little great music. Unless you like rap, the modern version of disco drug dealing, there is very little real music which is complemented by a mechanical groove.

Take a minute or two, and go through your favorite Cd's (you like the Beatles don't you?) with metronome in hand. If you can find the BPMs of your fav songs, you will note that real drummers play imperfect time. Even when they use click tracks.

That is where the groove comes from.


Blessings,


Johnboy

Well what better way to prove human feel and emotion than to provide a sample. The link is to a song that is in process. IT IS A SAMPLE, but I did the drums for this song a couple days ago and sent it back to the writer for further development. The drums are mixed higher than the guitar so that I can hear them more intently to critique the drum track. Anyway enough said! I will put it out there and let you decide. These are live recorded drums and percussion. The drums come in much later in the song, you'll have to listen to at least 1 minute and 50 seconds before the drums come in.
www.soundclick.com/pro/view/01/default.cfm?bandID=634414&content=lyrics&songID=4931417
In addition there has been some talk on this board regarding the quality of drums tracks one can be provided for internet exchange and music production. The sample track is an MP3. Of course you should hear the WAV. I sent the WAV to the writer via dropload.com.
Enjoy,
Tommy