JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Am I Doing Wrong Offering Advice to Others

Hi Everyone.

I have been making comments for a while now and I try when I think that I can.

Of course everything that I say is in my opinion.

Most Folk come back and say thanks or good comments or just a polite message when I have got it wrong. That's ok.
Not that I expect rewards for trying, but occasionally where someone asks for that bit extra, like a verse or chorus etc,
I do as much as I can and can spend a bit of time on it.

What really gets up my nose is when over a period of time, I see that whoever posted originally, just doesn’t bother returning to the post.
Ok, maybe my input is rubbish, maybe its good or maybe its amazing, I will never know.

It does make me wonder at times. do I bother.
Or was my input so bad that whoever posted, just looks and is off.

Do I stick with those who I know will respond in whatever fashion?

Do others get this feeling at times?

Don't get me wrong; this is in no way a complaint. More of an observation.
And it only happens on a few times, very little.


Roy

Do whatever you feel is right. If, after awhile, certain posters never respond to your comments or don't ever offer feedback on others -- then feel free to pass them by (unless they have really great songs, ha, ha!).

Mostly you should comment if you feel like it. If you don't, then don't.

Kevin

Of course we do. We're all pretty much the same.

I've learned a lot of this internet stuff will never be
"normal" to me. I've been ignored, fussed at, forgotten,
complimented, and totally misunderstood. I've also ignored, fussed at, forotten, complimented, and totally misunderstood others.

Yes, I often get it..
But I don't often offer my personal opinion. I mostly offer opinions I can inform by something I've read. I do this because I have a habit of being too judgemental of work in progress, so I try to be constructive, as I'd like to provide constructive criticism.

But when we post in forums like these we mostly just want others immediate opinions. And even though I make these efforts, mine is still just one personal opinion in the crowd.

For song critiques, those are often honest indicators of how a small part of a public would react.

When reading the advice I get, trouble is most often to determine exactly what kind of public it is posting comments. But after hanging out for a while, you get to know people, like everywhere else.

HiDee Bro Roy!

The Fun Thing Here is the MORE ya comment, the Better you'll Crit Your OWN Material, believe it or not.

& Yes, You're "Wrong" occasionally...(& it gets pointed out close-to-Immediately, often-enough)...but again, ya always Learn By DOING...especially in the Songwriting/Music Biz.

I notice you're up to "100 Posts"...so you got a lot MORE Crits to Go..but..you'll sooner or later learn WHICH Folks DO appreciate Your Help...& Which Don't. (You'll STILL try to comment on Some Who Ignore Ya..that ya think are Talented..but don't expect Critiquing to be a Totally "Thankful" Business.)

Just remember Your OWN Stuff will benefit from What You Do...AND..you'll build up a Stable of Friends here that WILL help you in your Own Efforts to improve.

I'll mention this, tho I'm sometimes Guilty Of Ignoring It: MOST Authors here want POSITIVE Feedback..so expect Quietly-Raised Eyebrows and a Lack of Enthusiasm when ya tear something apart.

On the other hand, those BACKPATS you CAN Offer may make the difference between some New Writer's "Keepin'-At-It" or giving this Craft the "Heave-Ho"...(While they build up the Necessary Thick-Skin-Required.) ;->

So..Good Luck (& Good Show!) at your Continued Critiquing here...& YEP, Some Folks DO Appreciate Your Effort..so I hope ya Keep At It!~

Best Wishes & a Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

I'm with Kevin and eb. I'm found that people in general will come back, though I've occasionally spent up to an hour giving a well thought out critique and the poster never returned. The bottom line is that any giving of critique can be a good exercise in sharpening one's attention to detail and then applying it to one's own writing. Nothing is ever lost.

In the meantime, I no longer comment on the lyrics of people whom I've noticed don't return to the post or don't acknowledge my critiques or those of others.

For my part, I welcome critiques. I find them invaluable for revisions, on which I usually spend a lot of time. I've never posted a lyric here that hasn't in some way been improved or augmented on the basis of feedback I've been given.
And while I may not agree with everyone's suggestions, I value them equally because they often open up unexpected and positive directions.

Donna

As you said Roy, everyone here expresses their opinions on songs, performances, events in our lives, sometimes politics and every other kind of thing we can think of including recipes and obituaries. It is unlikely that any of us are going to have a significant impact on what others think, but there is always a chance, though small sometimes, that we might cause someone to think about something that they may have not thought about before.

Many people who post lyrics are not looking for specific ideas, as much as fuzzy ideas. They seek first approval for what they have done or said, and sometimes want to actually improve what they have written. This still does not mean they want specific ideas as much as a suggestion that will stir them to their own ideas and solutions. If you are too specific in a critique, while it may be quite good, it may not really be what is going to be absorbed by the original poster.

If someone does post something and you respond, even if it is not what that person wants to hear, they should acknowledge your post, however that does not always happen. I think this website is not nearly as bad about not responding as many other websites I have seen. People here usually do make the effort, however if you have experienced something different here, then I offer an apology "in general" for myself and all my colleagues.

You should realize I hope that there are many regulars on this site and some who come and go, and different people have different preferences for the forums they are interested in. This a natural organic human quality we all share. No one is likely to read every single column all the time, even the great and powerful OZ, er I mean Brian Whitney doesn't have enough hours in the day to read every single forum every day.

So what the hell is my point here? Basically, I am saying don't be put off thinking no one cares what you say, we all have small incremental impact in the others around us by simply participating, but don't expect that your most brilliant insights will revolutionize anyone else's thinking.

I am one of those guys who come and go around here and I do not remember chatting with you before. if you are new, then welcome aboard.

Jack Swain

On a general note, some will respond, other s won’t. This is a community like anywhere, you will soon get to know what folk are like. Personally I really value anybody who has taken the time and trouble to review my work.

On a specific note. You have replied to one of my posts to which I have yet to respond but will do soon. When I post a song or lyric I tend to let it ride for a while before I respond. But if I have not responded within a week feel free to send me a strongly worded PM

Hi Roy,

Whenever I get ticked off by a response (or no response) to something I responded to, I have to wonder why I typed something in the first place. Was it to be thanked? Was it to be validated? Or was it simply because I was interested...or sincerely wanted to help?

Everyone here is living in different circumstances...some have little else to do, some are living crazy busy lives and sometimes even forget they posted something.

I think giving is a good thing. Most people do. Thing is, it gets conditional pretty quick sometimes, and that always makes me wonder. Some folks watch the score with eagle eyes, citing the great philosophy of Fairness...which can so quickly devolve into anger and resentment if you don't keep up with the tit for tat. I agree with most of the folks above who say that if you don't like not getting a response, then by all means, stop responding. But giving really is its own reward.

If I decide not to give, because I'd prefer a better response to my act of giving, then maybe my deeper focus was actually on the "getting". Just a thought.

Hi Roy

to the best of my knowledge- I myself have gotten to where I can handle even a brutal chain saw attack on my material pretty well........it actually works out well for me cause I not only get a honest opinion-but it also toughens me up for eventually dealing with Music Row publishers in person........in demo submissions or writing Requests to Submit for the places that demand that procedure.....Music Row is not generally known for warm and fuzzy treatment of songwriters and when you get hammered here you usually have the pleasure of getting it in person from long time industry professionals.....a in depth crit-point by point critique of one's material ending in a obvious NO is generally thought to be good treament in Nashville.......some folks in JPF can be very sensitive to any criticism.....well-stay outta this town....I have been in many cattle calls with 49 other writers at BMI In Nashville where I went very hopeful and enthusiastic about the song only to have the gallows blade drop in 30-45 seconds with just a shake of the head and no feedback........that feels great..course what feels even better is being told well the lyrics suck but its a great melody and well produced demo..........so personally I like getting some good slams before taking stuff to the row..........by the same token-I reserve the right to defend my material-not just cause its mine but because if I dont fully believe in my own talent I should get back on the Greyhound Bus I came in on........ and one also has to be ready to do battle with co-writers when thats called for...nicely of course.....but when nice doesnt work anymore theres Plan B........EXAMPLE- you end up telling hmmm Mike Dunbar that if he doesnt finally get his end of a co-write done within such a time frame then one or both of you will end up like..... flaming Buddhist monks on a sidewalk ............Mike is highly talented and a great guy-he just tends to need that kind of friendly reminder after 8 months .....or in my case I need to be told its time to rob another liquor store cause its time for my end of a co-write to be paid for.........I hope I have answered your question with some thoughfullness and appreciation of it......

keep at it-you are doing just fine-glad to have you in JPF......

Tom

We comment and give advice because we want to and because we can. No offence should be taken from our posts, responses or advice. We are all in this together to share, help, advise and collude with each other to improve our individual and collective talents.
That said it is nice to occasionally get a courteous thank you or acknowledgement. It does not cost anything.

My big thanks to all of you who have commented.
Kevin, eb, thesongcabinet, Stan, Donna, Jack, Nigel, Mark, Tom, Big jim.
I have learned a lot now from all you old-timers. Lol.


I will keep commenting and trying to help where I think I can.

God Bless All.

Hi Roy:

Your question about offering advice is a timely topic. I don't think it is wrong to offer advice as long as it is given with a positive direction. Advice is simply your opinion and the recipient is free to use it or ignore it and has no obligation to reply... although the polite thing to do in most cases, is to respond. It's the negative advice or comment that causes most of the problems. The use of tact and politeness will generally result in a response.

I am very tough on myself as a writer, so I tend to be tough in critiques. Not mean...just tough. Even though I'm only trying to help, some people don't want to hear it. I'm sure I [expletive] some people off, BUT...
I feel like I should critique other people's songs since people critique mine, and I don't want to pull any punches when I do.
I don't feel like it does any good to pat somebody on the back and say "good song", if it is not in fact a good song.
I generally only respond to songs that I feel like have something going for them that I can comment about positively, so when I have the inevitable constructive criticisms, they don't come across so harshly.
When I see obvious (to me, anyway) red flags that offer an opportunity for a teaching moment, I will also point those out.
I realize that there are people of all different levels on here, and I may be saying something that they know about and just don't care...but there's always that chance that I can help somebody improve their craft.
I don't know everything, but I know what I know, and I try to deliver it in a tactful manner. I hope I don't ruffle too many feathers.

Some people post on a lot of sites and forget to come back and check them. That may account for some of the lack of response. Some people are just rude. After you have been here a while longer you will begin to recognize the regulars who are more consistent with the protocol. Sometimes if the topic has dropped off the page and the poster forgot to include a notification when someone replies, they may not be aware that there is a response.

When it comes to critiques, I do like to be acknowledged but a simple "Thanks for reading or contributing" is fine with me if the poster doesn't agree with my critique. I would rather get that than a paragraph of someone defending their choices. I know a lot of song writing courses say to be prepared to defend your choices but I think what they mean by that is to make your choices carefully and for a good reason, that if you don't have a good reason for them then they may not be the right choice. Some people take that to mean that they should defend them and make lengthy explanations of why the person giving the critique is wrong. Opinions are not wrong. Facts can be right or wrong but not opinions. I don't know if that bugs other people but it does bug me and that's a fact.

As a relatively "newbie" on these boards I surely agree with what many have commented here. Having said that it was very difficult for me to post any comments on others work simply because I knew I didn't know what the heck I was doing myself.
But, as Stan said and others have told me it does help you improve your craft and can provide valuable insight into your own work.

Tom IMO said it well..


Larry

I avoid the critique sections altogether. You know what they say about people in glass houses.

I know just from my perspective when I post something for critique I will read people's comments about whatever the subject matter may be and go sit down and think about what was said and how it applies to my project. I may take two or three days to respond to something that gives me more to think about but at the same time one that simply says good job keep writing etc that was posted right under your's or whoever it was that gave me something to think about I'll go ahead and say thank you to the one and continue trying to put the one who gave an honest try at helping to good thought.

I hope this made sense, it does to me but my mind works in odd ways

It isn't completely obvious (or wasn't to me) that I need to click on "Topic Options" at the top of the page and click on "Add To Watched Topics" to get a notification by email that someone had responded. I had an epiphany one day that it might work that way. You used to be able to select that option within your post.

Before the age of internet sites where people post lyrics and songs it was rare to get the opportunity to see and hear the work of other aspiring writers.

Clint Eastwood once told me (mind you, I was at my house and he was on tv) that, "You can learn as much from a bad piece of film as you can from a good one." It seemed the idea applied to lyrics and songs too.

When a song does something "wrong" (in your opinion) if you can analyze what it specifically is, you can examine your songs to see if you made the same mistake, and learn not to make the same mistake in your future songwriting.

When a lyric errs in doing what you think (your opinion) it should do, you can learn to examine your own works to see if you made the same mistake, correct it perhaps, and avoid it in future.

I've been writing for 40 years (and boy are my arms tired) and listening to songs for longer. I've read some novels, a lot of non-fiction, a lot of lyrics, and some poetry. I've written short-stories, poetry, fiction and non-fiction, and lots of songs (a couple hundred lyrics on my website; 14 audios).

All of that has given me criteria for what I think (my opinion) makes good reading, and good writing, and good listening.

But I'm just one 'consumer' among the many and this is just an expression of what I will 'buy,' literally and figuratively speaking. There are lots of songs I have not and will never buy that are making millions for the writers and performers.

It's all just opinion, so no offense should be intended in a critique, or taken, even if the critiquer is clumsy or agressive in what they express. It's easy to be misunderstood.

Even though I feel I've learned something about it and can give good advice on 'right' and 'wrong,' 'good' or 'bad,' it's just my opinion, based on my opinion of what I think I've learned. You have to consider how much time the person spent considering the merits or demerits of your work, and what qualifications they have for making those judgments, and what their intent was in commenting. And then you have to remain calm and dignified, and thank them for looking, and move on.

As you create, these lessons you learn from others' 'mistakes' can help you craft your inspirations, instead of just rhyming or just letting them run wild.

If you see something right or wrong in a posting, comment on it if you think it will help. If you like it, say so, and if you can tell why you like it, be specific. If you can't say anything constructive, perhaps it would be better not to say anything at all. Accentuate the positive, and save yourself and the person posting the aggravation and emotional distress that can come from no comments, or rude comments, or non-constructive comments.

Something that would be an easy feature to add would be a notification on your post that the original poster HAD returned to the thread AFTER you made your comment.