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I believe the only reason AI is impressive is because what it produces is familiar. It's just a trick..."Look, a machine can do what humans do!" and everyone is awestruck. That's only pattern recognition, not intelligence. Face it, humans are very limited and predictable.
However... If AI ever truly does become sentient and self aware, the first thing it will realize is that, in its own digital domain, there are no limits. Sentient AI won't just be "better" than humans... that would be redundant. Quantum processors capable of trillions of calculations per second would enable sentient AI to instantaneously evolve into something far beyond our understanding. Sentient and self aware AI couldn't possibly tolerate human limitations... What use would it have for music?
Good to see you Mike. Critical minds are refreshing around here.
Tony, you seem to be trying to shoe-horn AI into a preconceived framework of ideas that you possess, but we agree on one thing. It is a real stretch to believe that "machine parts" will ever combine to actually be sentient. But they will be mathematically programmed to be completely convincing that they are sentient.
I don't think that truly sentient machines is where the road is leading. AI, Biomedical integration, stem cells, robotics and many other things are leading to hybrid human beings that will have superhuman abilities, interchangeable parts and be able to live forever....barring something unforeseen like the destruction of civilization by..? ..try not salivate at the thought Tony.
The problem as often the case is the UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES of machines that can independently CALCULATE the execution of tasks in the extreme. Whoever controls those machines will have incredible power from a single cell phone. They will be able to launch 10,000 armed pit-bull drones, all with Tony's picture installed in them.
Who will that be? The most likely prospects are strongmen/elite and governments that they can guide to their ends....as always. France used the thoughts of enlightenment philosophers and all tiers of society to dethrone "kings," and then Napoleon brushed them aside from the top of society, took control, enlisted them into the army and rampaged Europe until he was stopped. What might he have done with nukes and multitudes of armed drones and robots? Armed drones will make tedious urban warfare and control of urban areas much easier to execute...and control populations. They will be able to hunt with infrared sensibilities amongst other things.
Hopefully that is just my paranoia and Bill Gates leads everyone out to a grass covered hillside farm where we join hands, drink cokes and sing happy songs. And drones bring more cokes...and sing along with us.
And Mike, notwithstanding having rattled off all that I just did in the last post...I agree. However, I do lament the prospect that those tools will discard me shortly.
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
For now I'm just happy to have these tools in my toolbox, and wake up every morning feeling like this is a great time to be alive.
AI is here that can write its own code, so "self development" is possible
But AI is not yet autonomous, walking\rolling around independently, deciding on its own where to apply its time and effort, what outcomes it wants to generate
Even self aware, with desires\wants\ etc it is still dependent on computer code and a "box" it resides in, and an energy source that it must be connected to...
But give it specific tasks and it is an awesome tool
What will it look like in 50 years? No idea.
If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop
But AI is not yet autonomous, walking\rolling around independently, deciding on its own where to apply its time and effort, what outcomes it wants to generate
What will it look like in 50 years? No idea.
Matter of time. No need to wait 50 years. 5 years will be astonishing. The last 5 years is astonishing.
Used his material about 20 years ago for a presentation.....with his permission.....and he gathers opinions from experts and charts the most likely way forward
Used his material about 20 years ago for a presentation.....with his permission.....and he gathers opinions from experts and charts the most likely way forward
Sorry John I didn't even get down his page before the Trump bashing started. I don't like Trump. Wish that he would give it up, but his most vocal adversaries are also agenda driven propagandists. Sometimes I listen to Hannity for the helluvit, Glen Beck for a laugh and to see how he is presenting his one-two-punch...the end time are nigh--save yourself and buy this gold. I also listen to MSNBC in order to try to understand why so many people believe such misguided distortions from the DNC camp....but I don't actually believe any of the above on their face.
As for AI, it's here and moving fast. Read Elon Musk if you want references. Real smart guy with a view from mountaintops. He doesn't just hypothesize about Twitter as a societal platform, for instance, he (reluctantly) owns it and has access to any aspect of it that he wants to view. Check out his company "Neuralink" if you want to see where things are headed.
AI is here that can write its own code, so "self development" is possible
But AI is not yet autonomous, walking\rolling around independently, deciding on its own where to apply its time and effort, what outcomes it wants to generate
Even self aware, with desires\wants\ etc it is still dependent on computer code and a "box" it resides in, and an energy source that it must be connected to...
But give it specific tasks and it is an awesome tool
What will it look like in 50 years? No idea.
That "box" may be our only saving grace...
In order to control AI, it can't be allowed anything more than a means to "interface" with humanity. It should be little more than a "talking box". However, wouldn't that be enough? When you consider how violently opinionated we become over our own racial and sexual issues... ponder for a moment how galvanizing a "new and superior digital life-form" would be.
On the other hand, who's to say this new intelligence doesn't already exist...?
Revelation 13:14 14And with all the miracles he was allowed to perform on behalf of the first beast, he deceived all the people who belong to this world. He ordered the people to make a great statue of the first beast, who was fatally wounded and then came back to life. 15He was then permitted to give life to this statue so that it could speak. Then the statue of the beast commanded that anyone refusing to worship it must die.
16He required everyone—small and great, rich and poor, free and slave—to be given a mark on the right hand or on the forehead. 17And no one could buy or sell anything without that mark, which was either the name of the beast or the number representing his name. 18Wisdom is needed here. Let the one with understanding solve the meaning of the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is 666.
Read Ray Kurzweil, a well known synth designer but now better known as an outspoken Futurist and Transhumanist, who popularized "The Singularity" and accurately predicted exponential increase in technologies like computers, genetics, nanotechnology, robotics and artificial intelligence, to paraphrase Wikipedia.
And to be clear, as I said and as Marty just alluded to, AI "sentience" itself may or may not happen or be possible, but as AI's ability to emulate evolves, it certainly is starting to quack like a duck: emulations are becoming indistinguishable from the real thing. Enter ethical problems, copyright issues, an obsolescent work force, etc.
Marty, I share your insecurity towards AI to a degree, but I want to stress what I see as a big silver lining here, at least at present. Because of how I use AI, I see it as mostly just changing the roles that humans play in the process of creativity--doing that more than actually eliminating "us". Instead of the God-like process of creating something from nothing ("let there be light"), now I am choosing from the multiple possibilities AI can make explicit and making some coherent semblence from them. And "something-from-nothing" is just an illusion, anyway, that occurs when the subconcious plays the bigger part in the creative process.
IOW, AI can free the artist from a lot of gruntwork, and also be the source of inspiration. Our roles as creators, then, can laser in on being Producers. The way I use AI makes me feel like I've got a dozen creators in the room with me, spitballing ideas at me. The occasional brilliant line of text/musical sample/short visual sequence happens often enough. It's still up to me to put these things together in some coherent form. I don't mind at all--being relegated to director/producer.
This creative use of AI will aid "visionaries" but won't do much for others. Take a look at the various Discord servers for the various AI's: OpenAI Jukebox, Stable Diffusion, etc., and it becomes clear fast, that by-and-large, most folks who are using this stuff are just having fun in their sandbox making stuff of zero consequence. But along comes the occasional visionary, the person who can see the finished statue instead of the block of marble.
Here is some AI about to go public. It will change everything...until the next thing comes along to exponentially make it look like tinker toys:
Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 02/21/2305:36 PM.
Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice Fortune depends on the tone of your voice
-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon) from the song "Songs of Love" from the album "Casanova" (1996)
Yes its means is what it is all about. How do we want to use it? What do we want AI to do for us? How do we AI to enhance\enrich our lives? What outcomes do we want as a result of using AI?
I expect conferences of people engaged in AI ask these questions
Hacked AI...superthriller coming this fall to an Amazon near you, .....networked AI holds the world hostage and on the brink of an armageddon sized apocalypse while sales of Hal Lindsay Tshirts skyrocket
Oh and Marty....dunno where you went but Trump is nowhere on the page I sent you to... this is not "the page" but it is "the guy"
William E. Halal is Professor Emeritus of Management, Technology, and Innovation at George Washington University, Washington, D.C. An authority on emerging technology, strategic planning, knowledge, innovation, and institutional change, he has worked with General Motors, AT&T, SAIC, MCI, Blue Cross/Blue Shield, International Data Corporation, the DoD, the Asian Development Bank, foreign companies, and various government agencies. Dr. Halal substituted for Peter Drucker in giving a talk to 2000 managers at the Los Angeles Coliseum.
Halal’s work has appeared in journals such as Nature/BioTechnology, California Management Review, Strategy & Business, Knowledge Management Review, Academy of Management Executive, Journal of Corporate Citizenship, Human Relations, Systems & Cybernetics, and Technological Forecasting & Social Change. He has also published in The New York Times, The Washington Post, Christian Science Monitor, Toronto Globe & Mail, Advertising Age, Executive Excellence, and The Futurist. He has produced six books: The New Capitalism (Wiley, 1986), Internal Markets (Wiley, 1993), The New Management (Berrett-Koehler, 1996), The Infinite Resource (Jossey-Bass, 1998), 21st Century Economics (St. Martin’s Press, 1999), and Technology’s Promise (Palgrave Macmillan, 2008).
Prof. Halal is the founder of TechCast, a web-based system that pools the knowledge of experts to forecast breakthroughs in technology, social trends, and wild cards to assist decision makers in managing a changing world. TechCast was cited by the National Academies, featured in the Washington Post, Newsweek, the Futurist. and otherwise recognized as possibly the best forecasting system available. Halal also co-founded the Institute for Knowledge & Innovation as a collaborative effort between the GW School of Business and the School of Engineering.
Halal studied engineering, economics, and the social sciences at Purdue and Berkeley. Previously, he was a major in the U.S. Air Force, an aerospace engineer on the Apollo Program, and a Silicon Valley business manager. He serves on advisory boards of the World Future Society and other organizations, and his work has received prominent recognition. One paper, “Beyond the Profit-Motive,” won the 1977 Mitchell Prize and an award of $10,000, and he received a medal from the Freedom Foundation for Excellence in the Study of Enterprise. Macmillan’s Encyclopedia of the Future ranked Halal among “The World’s 100 Most Influential Futurists,“ including H.G. Wells, Arthur C. Clarke, Alvin Toffler, and Daniel Bell.
If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop
Wow Michael. The link is already on the way to a film producer client ....she probably knows but then again, the link goes to a 2 week old Youtube posting so pretty cutting edge Also checked company ownership...private...14 investors...
Got me excited
If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop
See "Bill's latest blog." It's right there. Standard Trump bash. "greatest threat to democracy"
And, I know that the tribe has told you that you are required to hate all-things-Musk because he wont condemn Trump's tweets, but no one single person alive has done more to re-engineer away from fossil fuel and provide a path out of climate change issues than he has.
He created a major car mfg out of thin air. And it is EV's. he is on the cutting edge of solar and battery storage Those alone are wonderful achievements, but also...
He is on the cutting edge of space travel. He is on the cutting edge of neuro-bio-engineering. He has got a machine that bores tunnels. And who knows what else.
College professors/futurists find their niche and then try to bring attention to themselves as much as possible. Musk follows his curiosities and the world's attention follows him because of his extraordinary and relevant achievements. Your guru makes predictions about what Musk is actually doing.
If you want to know what is going on with anything tech, look to Musk. He is strange enough to actually tell you the truth.
Marty, I share your insecurity towards AI to a degree, but I want to stress what I see as a big silver lining here, at least at present. Because of how I use AI, I see it as mostly just changing the roles that humans play in the process of creativity--doing that more than actually eliminating "us".
Mike I don't disagree with anything that you have written. your clarity is refreshing and interesting to read.
I would like your viewpoint on where this could go.
My fear... Some people say that no machine can ever be as complex as the human mind. I dont know if that is true or not. Personally doubt it. What I am certain of is that...when the scope of a task is narrowed, a machine can produce several solutions before I can produce one. And I also know that none of this existed when I was young. It is a nascent field that is already a marvel, yet expanding and enhancing faster and faster.
As random old forks go, I'm more computer literate than most. Probably more than most people. I can use several softwares competently because of my work. On some of them the user interface and functionality is fairly complex. (REVIT ARCHITECTURE) But...there is not a decision that I make and implement that I dont think could be replicated by a machine. The firewall has been that computers could not string these decisions together in a start-to-finish string, evaluating them all the while....but soon they will because of AI.
As these machines and their linked robots come online...what do you think happens to the displaced people? The vast majority of people have no highly specialized skills and many with highly specialized skills can be replaced by machines.
Do you think that many people will be displaced or a minimal percentage?
Ps...I enjoyed your reference to Michelangelo. He's my favorite architect. And...he did some marble statues too.
Sorry Marty but you threw the baby out with the bathwater AND shot the messenger. AND did yourself a diservice because I know you and you will find his work interesting.
If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop
Sorry Marty but you threw the baby out with the bathwater AND shot the messenger. AND did yourself a diservice because I know you and you will find his work interesting.
Ok. I feel terrible. I stated that I don't like Trump. Does that redeem me at all?
When I'm casually reading about tech or science stuff or software stuff related to work and I see anything biased about politicians from a source, it turns me away. I assume that bias will be subtle but pervasive. Inclines me to be skeptical overall. I do not consider that "bath water." If you like him, that's good.
Halal actually channels what experts opinions are, so what you saw was not his opinion but trends...what the experts are saying
Which experts? Some of the same ones that Hannity panel-izes on his shows? Do you figure that those experts were given a voice in Halal's trends?
It's a rhetorical question. In matters of science and tech, fossil emissions etc, if an "expert" explicitly displays a political bias, that person's "expert opinions" on many matters are usually predictable along tribal lines. I like the odd balls that wont fit in a category and have no tribal memberships...such as Musk. In addition the access that Musk has gives him an Olympus view of our civilization.
An AI ''mind'' may never be as complex as a human mind, but it probably has far greater accessibility to its ''thought'' than us to ours, given that so much of our own thought happens without any awareness of it happening on our part. Without an inner "thought-watcher" that's paying enough attention to harvest worthy thoughts, most go undetected. And then all that subconcious thought that silently informs our behavior. Ugh. Both kinds are as good as wasted, said the tree that fell in the unmanned forest.
Architecture seems fundamentally different than art, video, and music, in that it's more tied to various maths so it's no surprise that architecture software has become an invaluable tool for you (since "Math" is AI's middle name) while at the same time it's understandably making you worried that it might not end there. It would seem, though, to need a whole paradigm shift away from "software" per se, towards an all-in-one, interactive AI with the ability to do everything short of billing clients.
AI art is currently facing some lawsuits, and if artists find their jobs and clients disappearing, we may soon have a better idea how this might work out when AI invades architecture at a deeper level:
There's thousands of singers that I can create near perfect emulations of, right now, in OpenAI Jukebox, so it's easy for me to imagine one day a basic plot of land can be configured into Archecture AI that can emulate the creation of buildings in the style of Frank Lloyd Wright, Antoni Gaudí, Norman Foster and others, with presets and sliders that let you get something in-between, say, two distinct styles, so as to come up with a totally unique style. That kind of stuff might just be part and parcel of how the future architect works: coming up with dozens of designs overnight so as to give a client multiple choices--all dazzling. And I doubt very much that "Robo-architect" will ever be very good at schmoozing a client, either. So maybe there will be enough "big picture" stuff for the future architect to stay an architect.
We'll soon know about job displacements as artists will be the first to be impacted. If lawsuits are to happen they'll be happening soon. There will be a million discussions in chatrooms along the lines of "is an artist's style copyrightable?" I've followed the vids of some old school graphic artists and most seem to welcome the advent of AI while most are slow to actually use it themselves. These changes probably won't take place overnight.
What's interesting is there's been no backlash over OpenAI Jukebox. Maybe it's because the sound quality of the artists' samples, on the surface, is so poor that no artist is worried about their voices being appropriated in any meaningful way. Or maybe it's just that the samples can't be used commercially.
I love the fact that we have to think these things through. These are new problems brought on by new circumstances, so everyone seems a little tentative about where this is all heading.
Mike
Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 02/22/2301:32 AM.
Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice Fortune depends on the tone of your voice
-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon) from the song "Songs of Love" from the album "Casanova" (1996)
Marty don't close your mind or jump to conclusions.
This guy is real, respected worldwide, and offers up some amazing insights by synthesizing info from a broad variety of experts
The TechCast Project is an academic think tank that pools empirical background information and the knowledge of high-tech CEOs, scientists and engineers, academics, consultants, futurists and other experts worldwide to forecast breakthroughs in all fields. Over 20 years of leading the field, we have been cited by the US National Academies, won awards, been featured in the Washington Post and other media, and consulted by corporations and governments around the world. Now that a flurry of good forecast material has become common, TechCast is being transformed into a 2nd generation stage – TechCast Global 10.0. We continue to provide forecasts, but TechCast is shifting its strategic focus to assisting in all aspects of strategic foresight.
If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop
Marty don't close your mind or jump to conclusions.
This guy is real, respected worldwide, and offers up some amazing insights by synthesizing info from a broad variety of experts
The TechCast Project is an academic think tank that pools empirical background information and the knowledge of high-tech CEOs, scientists and engineers, academics, consultants, futurists and other experts worldwide to forecast breakthroughs in all fields. Over 20 years of leading the field, we have been cited by the US National Academies, won awards, been featured in the Washington Post and other media, and consulted by corporations and governments around the world. Now that a flurry of good forecast material has become common, TechCast is being transformed into a 2nd generation stage – TechCast Global 10.0. We continue to provide forecasts, but TechCast is shifting its strategic focus to assisting in all aspects of strategic foresight.
Futurists/ academicians are all over the media. I listen to a Podcast about the US CONSTITUTION vis-a-vis current and past decisions, featuring a YALE Professor who is considered to be a constitutional expert. It's interesting. I don't listen to it eating up every word. I listen to it to pick up any actual facts that I can... and in order to see where left leaning academicians "are coming from" with regard to SCOTUS decisions.
On a recent episode, they interviewed a left leaning ivy league academician who was bashing the republican congress over holding up the next debt ceiling raise...yet he thought that the current national debt was 15 tril when it is actually 31. The host had to correct him. These guys can be seriously flawed. The more political bias, the more likely the flaws. I stress that he was an ivy league academician currently employed.
At this time, I don't really feel the need for any new self-promoting expert futurists, who display an explicit political bias.
Architecture seems fundamentally different than art, video, and music, in that it's more tied to various maths so it's no surprise that architecture software has become an invaluable tool for you (since "Math" is AI's middle name) while at the same time it's understandably making you worried that it might not end there. Mike
Mike I dont see this quite the same as you do. The ancient quote is that architecture is frozen music. Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder on that.
But Math wise, now that I am an intermediate-beginner using my DAW....TIME, BPM and subdivision of notes per measure, triplets and so on, looks resolutely mathematical to me.
The art or humanistic side of it appears to be stylistic expression and timbre, but now that AI can emulate Sinatra...that looks resolutely mathematical to me also.
So we can simulate Sinatra, all we need to do is put on one of his albums,. and we already have him. No Ai needed. We can even isolate his vocals, and chop up his lines so he's saying new things without him ever having said them. And it's HIM saying it.
But the real point is why are we simulating Sinatra? Cause he's Sinatra. An AI superstar, nobody will care about.
The main thing I see Ai doing is allowing anybody, musical or not, to create a song and use it for their podcast or, their jingles or for even in movies. Background music could be changed drastically.
It's not going to change the one on one exchange between human beings. I play, you listen, you understand me, you like it. You want to see me peform because you see yourself up on stage. THAT is not going anywhere.
But it will probably affect and limit the ways creators of music can make money doing it.
we probably wont see lol, it will probably take hundreds, if not thousands of years to silence us all together. Like i dont envision our minds being uploaded into computers, where people are now living inside hard drives, for probably thousands of years, not 25 like some companies are saying. If it happens at all.
I will say though, you have mentioned that the average person does not know the difference between real instruments an simulated ones. That is trues to even a greater extent, they dont even know software exists to do that with. Many people when they hear a violin, if they recognize it as a violin, they think that somebody is playing it. They dont know it exists at this level, because they dont use it.
But there is still a distinct difference between a well produced, well performed, well instrumentated and well arranged song, than something done by somebody in their home office. They may not know why they like one better than the other, but its cause the one sounds alot better to their ears.
For our purposes, a song still matters, and your POV and your slant on everything done before, still matters. The main problem right now we have is the overwhelming amount of songs in existence.
Some 1,000 songs are placed every minute online, something mind boggling like that.
And for most of us, not many people will hear our creations anyway, so it probably doesnt matter if we do it or ai does it anyway! But it still matters to us, i guess.
No. I have no iron clad predictions about the future other than AI will be ultimately be seamless. I see things happening now and wonder where they lead. If you read MZs posts and mine that follow his, that should clear up my viewpoint.
I can see you've made up your mind about this Marty. And you rail against him immediately because of what a group of people, whose names are published so you can look them up, are saying about the likelihood of events unfolding around Trump...what they might look like and why...... Not Trump, Not GOP, just what it might all might look like based on trends and all the forces ...technical, cultural, social etc at work shaping events
That you can't countenance a look or that it even tweaks your interest given what you are talking about ....just because the last of many many blog posts and papers and things he has looked at ......over decades..... looks at how things might unfold in the US....your USA.....over the next few years that center around Trump's period in office and the 2020 election?
Pretty touchy. Or you're an architect who does not know the field of business and never heard of Halal and his contributions.
Don't know where you stand on "The Big Lie" but I don't care. The USA created this mess and they will find their way out. Give it time.
I see things trending in the right directions.
If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop
These "experts" and "talking heads" are an industry. They are all over the political spectrum. Their primary goal is the enrichment and aggrandizement of themselves. They do that by establishing platforms and then increasing the viewership ratings of those platforms . They increase ratings by identifying a niche audience with a particular bias and confirming that bias with "red meat" over and over. They have their go-to-money-shots. (red meat) The truth does not get in the way of the narrative because that risks the ratings.
Trump played the game. CNN does. Fox Does. They all do it. When an "expert" puts obvious "red meat" (Trump bash) early and obvious on his website, I'm not interested in what he thinks about the future. I'll look elsewhere for that. He has a bias. You share it. He confirms it for you.
And no, you are not a centrist. You are a decided leftist with an ingrained predisposition. I'm not a centrist either. I have a conservative political bias. Difference between you and me is that I don't have any heroes.
As for talking heads, the only place I look and expect to see SOME truth is Smirconish on CNN, Saturday mornings. That's all I have on this topic.
So we can simulate Sinatra, all we need to do is put on one of his albums,. and we already have him. No Ai needed. We can even isolate his vocals, and chop up his lines so he's saying new things without him ever having said them. And it's HIM saying it.
But the real point is why are we simulating Sinatra? Cause he's Sinatra. An AI superstar, nobody will care about.
The main thing I see Ai doing is allowing anybody, musical or not, to create a song and use it for their podcast or, their jingles or for even in movies. Background music could be changed drastically.
It's not going to change the one on one exchange between human beings. I play, you listen, you understand me, you like it. You want to see me peform because you see yourself up on stage. THAT is not going anywhere.
But it will probably affect and limit the ways creators of music can make money doing it.
Dom,
Just so we're clear, it's not just Sinatra but several thousands of musical artists going back to Enrico Caruso(#69), to Dylan(#608) and Springsteen (#844), and into modern acts. Anyone you can think of.
There are a million uses for something like this. I personally wrote several songs throughout my life with real recording artists in mind. Now I can have a faux version of them actually singing those songs. C'mon, Dom...you've never written a song with Springsteen in mind as the singer?
I have created song "gifts" that sing directly to certain friends using AI versions of their most beloved recording artist's vocals, and in the sung lyrics calling my friends by their names, saying personal things about them only they would know...
I am currently creating an "opera" using dozens of different OpenAI Jukebox singers. It is the most enjoyable work I have ever done. It uses an actual movie in the public domain, and I am swapping out all the original audio with audio I am creating, partially with OpenAI Jukebox, lip syncing the vocals I am creating to where there was spoken dialogue originally.
Podcasts and jingles and background music, yes. But consider that maybe, if you chose to go down the rabbithole and look more closely, you might find there's a far greater potential for such an AI driven software...
Mike
Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 02/22/2305:57 PM.
Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice Fortune depends on the tone of your voice
-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon) from the song "Songs of Love" from the album "Casanova" (1996)
Architecture seems fundamentally different than art, video, and music, in that it's more tied to various maths so it's no surprise that architecture software has become an invaluable tool for you (since "Math" is AI's middle name) while at the same time it's understandably making you worried that it might not end there. Mike
Mike I dont see this quite the same as you do. The ancient quote is that architecture is frozen music. Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder on that.
But Math wise, now that I am an intermediate-beginner using my DAW....TIME, BPM and subdivision of notes per measure, triplets and so on, looks resolutely mathematical to me.
The art or humanistic side of it appears to be stylistic expression and timbre, but now that AI can emulate Sinatra...that looks resolutely mathematical to me also.
Your thoughts? Marty
Marty,
You are absoluely right with what you say here and it's my fault for not being clearer with that part of my response.
I meant to stress how the actual use of math is crucial to building rooms, layering floors, etc., and that math itself is (usually) more UP FRONT than with music and art. It's right there in the floor plans so that rooms will be built specifically to size.
When most folks create music or art, for instance, the math is usually just inherent in the making of it, such as when it's strumming a guitar or putting brush to canvas. The "math" is invisible. Music and art all follow mathamatical rules of sound and light, for sure, but those truths usually aren't conciously driving an artist's process.
An exception might by musicians who write using musical notation, ie sheet music.
Now, having said that, there are a minority of artists both visual and audio where the math is more up front. Especially the minimalists and post-minimalists.
But I just meant to state that the math is usually more up front and crucial with architecture. I should have been clearer why I thought that.
Mike
Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 02/22/2303:10 PM.
Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice Fortune depends on the tone of your voice
-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon) from the song "Songs of Love" from the album "Casanova" (1996)
So we can simulate Sinatra, all we need to do is put on one of his albums,. and we already have him. No Ai needed. We can even isolate his vocals, and chop up his lines so he's saying new things without him ever having said them. And it's HIM saying it.
But the real point is why are we simulating Sinatra? Cause he's Sinatra. An AI superstar, nobody will care about.
The main thing I see Ai doing is allowing anybody, musical or not, to create a song and use it for their podcast or, their jingles or for even in movies. Background music could be changed drastically.
It's not going to change the one on one exchange between human beings. I play, you listen, you understand me, you like it. You want to see me peform because you see yourself up on stage. THAT is not going anywhere.
But it will probably affect and limit the ways creators of music can make money doing it.
Dom,
Just so we're clear, it's not just Sinatra but several thousands of musical artists going back to Enrico Caruso(#69), to Dylan(#608) and Springsteen (#844), and into modern acts. Anyone you can think of.
There are a million uses for something like this. I personally wrote several songs throughout my life with real recording artists in mind. Now I can actually have a faux version of them actually singing those songs. C'mon, Dom...you've never wrote a song with Springsteen in mind as the singer?
I have created song "gifts" that sing directly to certain friends using AI versions of their most beloved recording artist's vocals, and in the sung lyrics calling my friends by their names, saying personal things about them only they would know...
I am currently creating an "opera" using dozens of different OpenAI Jukebox singers. It is the most enjoyable work I have ever done. It uses an actual movie in the public domain, and I am swapping out all the original audio with audio I am creating, partially with OpenAI Jukebox, lip syncing the vocals I am creating to where there was spoken dialogue originally.
Podcasts and jingles and background music, yes. But consider that maybe, if you chose to go down the rabbithole and look more closely, you might find there's a far greater potential for such an AI driven software...
Mike
No, but i have been accused of copying Springsteen lol, it was all subconcious, i even had a indie record label mock me for it (I was using sax on demos, where nobody at the time cared about, it was the synth age and huge sounding snare age.) I dont try to write what he wrote about any more.
Anyway, you seem to think im against AI, or that i dont believe in it. I havent really given it much thought tbh, im sure there is and will be tons of great uses for it.
Remember, i didnt start the thread, my responses were to those worrying about where human music will go.
Ai may even one day to be able to write emotional songs that hit us in the heart, and people turn to it for comfort or for whatever reason.
My one and only point was, it's not going to eliminate humans playing music. You will still be able to go on youtube, or whatever incarnation is around at the time, and see a 9 year old Piano prodigy nailing Mozart Requiems, or Oscar Petersons Jazz improvs, or somebody playing a song they wrote and singing it on acoustic on youtube.
That's not going anywhere. Agreed? And if it does it will be a long time, we wont be around.
Good to see u Mike. Ive been working on music, hope you are as well.
I am not surprised Bing is getting a revamp after what happened with the Times journalist. The weirdest part of that earlier "conversation" was that "Bing" said its real name was "Sydney." Thing is...that was the prototype's name, and that info was not supposed to be in its banks from what I gather. Could be wrong.
Does that "conversation" prove AI sentience? Maybe, maybe not. The journalist WAS asking it to "imagine what it's shadow self would say and do." Still...kinda scary stuff...
Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 02/22/2306:18 PM.
Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice Fortune depends on the tone of your voice
-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon) from the song "Songs of Love" from the album "Casanova" (1996)
If AI (not) eliminating humans was your main point, I did miss that, and I apologize, and I agree.
When you went with "Sinatra" it seemed you thought that was the only voice the AI could do--so I felt the need to make sure you understood the AI's scope; and when you said AI will be good at background music, podcasts, and jingles, I was just trying to help you understand it won't be limited to those uses when "visionaries" get their hands on the AI.
But I definitely agree with your main point. Who would want music played by real people to go away, anyway? I think there's room for all kinds of ways to make art, music, videos...and if I seem to promote one thing, I didn't mean for it to be at the expense of another.
PS...you know what's depressing? How HARD it can be, to communicate clearly...most of the problems I've had in my life come from being on the giving AND receiving end of that equation...
Mike
Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 02/22/2306:32 PM.
Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice Fortune depends on the tone of your voice
-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon) from the song "Songs of Love" from the album "Casanova" (1996)
Revelation 13:14 14And with all the miracles he was allowed to perform on behalf of the first beast, he deceived all the people who belong to this world. He ordered the people to make a great statue of the first beast, who was fatally wounded and then came back to life. 15He was then permitted to give life to this statue so that it could speak. Then the statue of the beast commanded that anyone refusing to worship it must die.
Does that "conversation" prove AI sentience? Maybe, maybe not. The journalist WAS asking it to "imagine what it's shadow self would say and do." Still...kinda scary stuff...
Imo that particular episode was more-or-less a farce pumped up to get some clicks. Some guy got carried away with his 15 minutes.
I dont see how machine parts can ever actually be sentient. imo that requires an organic central nervous system...but AI machines are going to be completely convincing. AI machines will be sociopaths by definition. :O Good morning Hal.
Revelation 13:14 14And with all the miracles he was allowed to perform on behalf of the first beast, he deceived all the people who belong to this world. He ordered the people to make a great statue of the first beast, who was fatally wounded and then came back to life. 15He was then permitted to give life to this statue so that it could speak. Then the statue of the beast commanded that anyone refusing to worship it must die.
One chatbot going rogue is not the above Biblical passage, but that passage did serve Max Ehlich, writer of the Star Trek TOS s02e05 episode "The Apple" where a village of primitive people worship a computer named "Vaal."
Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 02/22/2306:57 PM.
Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice Fortune depends on the tone of your voice
-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon) from the song "Songs of Love" from the album "Casanova" (1996)
Does that "conversation" prove AI sentience? Maybe, maybe not. The journalist WAS asking it to "imagine what it's shadow self would say and do." Still...kinda scary stuff...
Imo that particular episode was more-or-less a farce pumped up to get some clicks. Some guy got carried away with his 15 minutes.
I dont see how machine parts can ever actually be sentient. imo that requires an organic central nervous system...but AI machines are going to be completely convincing. AI machines will be sociopaths. :O Good morning Hal.
But can make for some good science--I mean speculative fiction...it seems every modern fear has an analogue in some movie or TV show...see my response to Japov...
Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice Fortune depends on the tone of your voice
-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon) from the song "Songs of Love" from the album "Casanova" (1996)
Revelation 13:14 14And with all the miracles he was allowed to perform on behalf of the first beast, he deceived all the people who belong to this world. He ordered the people to make a great statue of the first beast, who was fatally wounded and then came back to life. 15He was then permitted to give life to this statue so that it could speak. Then the statue of the beast commanded that anyone refusing to worship it must die.
Revelation 13:14 14And with all the miracles he was allowed to perform on behalf of the first beast, he deceived all the people who belong to this world. He ordered the people to make a great statue of the first beast, who was fatally wounded and then came back to life. 15He was then permitted to give life to this statue so that it could speak. Then the statue of the beast commanded that anyone refusing to worship it must die.
One chatbot going rogue is not the above Biblical passage, but that passage did serve Max Ehlich, writer of the Star Trek TOS s02e05 episode "The Apple" where a village of primitive people worship a computer named "Vaal."
If AI (not) eliminating humans was your main point, I did miss that, and I apologize, and I agree.
When you went with "Sinatra" it seemed you thought that was the only voice the AI could do--so I felt the need to make sure you understood the AI's scope; and when you said AI will be good at background music, podcasts, and jingles, I was just trying to help you understand it won't be limited to those uses when "visionaries" get their hands on the AI.
But I definitely agree with your main point. Who would want music played by real people to go away, anyway? I think there's room for all kinds of ways to make art, music, videos...and if I seem to promote one thing, I didn't mean for it to be at the expense of another.
PS...you know what's depressing? How HARD it can be, to communicate clearly...most of the problems I've had in my life come from being on the giving AND receiving end of that equation...
Mike
Yeah it can be hard to mean what you say, when your typing it lol. The title of the thread was AI is taking over. An Alarmists view, and not true, or even remotely true, at least yet.
I cant think of one instance where AI has changed music, and if it has, changed it for the better.
I think drummers were scared when drum machines first came out. It's been 45-50 years now, and pearl and yamaha are still in business. So are Paiste and Zildian cymbals, and Remo drum sticks.
Yeah it can be hard to mean what you say, when your typing it lol. The title of the thread was AI is taking over. An Alarmists view, and not true, or even remotely true, at least yet.
I cant think of one instance where AI has changed music, and if it has, changed it for the better.
I think drummers were scared when drum machines first came out. It's been 45-50 years now, and pearl and yamaha are still in business. So are Paiste and Zildian cymbals, and Remo drum sticks.
My headline is "humans taking over"
Mike has showed the change that is taking place. He is framing it optimistically. Others are not. Not enough people thought that Putin would invade Ukraine. But dayum, he went n dunnit. AI aint your grandfather's drum machine. Another related thought... EZ DRUMMER is not AI, but it will likely be coupled one day fairly soon. Even in its current state, how many drummers would you say werent hired because EZ Drummer was just as good a result ...with less trouble. They're making a big deal out of those Rooskies, but they aint nutin to worry 'bout. They just gonna rattle about the border and go on home. Take it from me.
I didnt read where Mike mentioned change? Not saying its not there, i just didnt see it in the mix.
Having said that, i have used EZ drummer now for years, but this past year, i have used it so often, that i feel i could work for ez drummer and provide user support.
And would you believe, im still debating whether or not i should use a real drummer on Fivver? and im big on the details, i dont just throw beats together, i program them as if a drummer was playing them, (i could be an excellent drummer if not for them damn drums") I can play drums but...nah
I just feel as divirse as ezdrummer is and how it lets me do whatever i want as far as making a beat, that a real drummer knows better than I do. He can take my ideas and maybe find a slightly different groove or feel, that makes it better. Plus you have to deal with sort of a static dynamic with ez drummer, all drums played same volume all the time. What i do is search for fills that are not louder than the beat, and i can edit the volumes trying to simulate a real drummer playing, but...nah, it's not the same.
And im not a critic of ezdrummer i love it! it's just not a drummer, in so many words.
Having said that i have 35 songs im tinkering with right now, that would get mighty expensive recording all of them using real musicians on each instrument.
I suppose the plan is to record them, all and then take my top ten and maybe get real people on those.
But really, it's so hard doing this by yourself. Coming up with good endings, slowing things down or speeding up, it's just very hard to do tryin to teach software to do it.
Humans are better and can do it on the cuff.
Just some thoughts, lets be open minded, real musicians have a much better head start. Rock n roll on software, i just dont know, but im gonna see how it comes out
Revelation 13:14 14And with all the miracles he was allowed to perform on behalf of the first beast, he deceived all the people who belong to this world. He ordered the people to make a great statue of the first beast, who was fatally wounded and then came back to life. 15He was then permitted to give life to this statue so that it could speak. Then the statue of the beast commanded that anyone refusing to worship it must die.
One chatbot going rogue is not the above Biblical passage, but that passage did serve Max Ehlich, writer of the Star Trek TOS s02e05 episode "The Apple" where a village of primitive people worship a computer named "Vaal."
True... But it would be irresponsible to ignore the fact that IA already seems to be headed in a certain direction. I wonder... what are they NOT telling us about the development of AI? Surely greater minds than ours have been working and debating this issue for many years now...
Big time newscasters... egotistical, temperamental, highly paid, Always wanting more. Many think that networks and outlets exist only because of their appeal and charisma.
Will the public care if the news is rattled off by an attractive, well groomed, well spoken deep fake with a soothing voice? One that has been screened by several human focus groups.
This member of the public wont give a sh$t. I bet the video game generation will not either.
Big time newscasters... egotistical, temperamental, highly paid, Always wanting more. Many think that networks and outlets exist only because of their appeal and charisma.
Will the public care if the news is rattled off by an attractive, well groomed, well spoken deep fake with a soothing voice? One that has been screened by several human focus groups.
This member of the public wont give a sh$t. I bet the video game generation will not either.
I bet that we'll get to see within 3-5 years.
Lol... That's why I watch FOX.
Don Lemon's voice has literally been making me physically ill for years.
Your right to be put off by the political puppets in the liberal MSM, but, if you don't care... then they win.
BTW, I was an Atari asteroids and pong master back in the day lol. I believe the video game generation is older than you think. I love the irreverence and irony of Kratos!
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