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What are your thoughts on using condenser microphones for live stage work?

I am playing solo acoustic, one voice and one guitar I am using a condenser microphone on my acoustic and a SM58 for vocals, but I want something better for vocals, something I don't feel the need to scream into or eat to get the sound out.

Thoughts? sugestions?

I see no reason not to use a condenser for vocals and guitar, depending on the venue and inherent level capabilities. I've use a pair of them more than once.
Obviously mics work better if you're sitting than if you're standing because it's easier to remain in the "field".

Go right ahead. No reason not to.



The SM58 is a fine vocal mic and has been used sucessfully by thousands of singers for decades. Why do you think you have to scream into it or eat it? Maybe yours is broken.

Hi TNS
I agree with you, you have to be right on top of the SM58 to get the right sound and tone out of it. I often have to look at my fretboard and I know the vocal suffers sometime. I just bought a new condensor mike to use. It's an electrovoice cardinal
http://www.electrovoice.com/productfamilies/34.html
it's great looking sells, between $160 and $200, and sounds great. You do NOT have to eat it to be heard. If you turn your head a little it doesn't lose tone. I love it.

Herbie

Coming back and seeing Truman's reply makes me wonder too, why you have to scream into or eat the mic to get heard. I didn't dwell on that part of your post, rather the feasability of using a condenser mic live.

It is true that a condenser, as a general rule, is going to be "hotter" than a dynamic mic but there are inherent problems that arise from that. Your problem sounds more like either a mic problem or a gain structure issue.

I primarily perform solo and, for the most part, plug my acoustic and one mic into the PA. I use a Carvin CM68 as my primary vocal mic because it does a great job on my voice. It is Carvin's version of the SM58 though I think it is closer to the Beta58, at least for my voice. That mic has the lowest output of any dynamic mic in my arsonal other than an old pair of Electro-Voice omnis. In many of the venues I perform I'm between 6" and 12" from the mic with no need to scream or eat the mic, and without feedback mind you....
That leads us back to agreeing with Truman that you have a problem with either the mic or the gain structure, not the fact that it's a dynamic mic and not a condenser.

Coming back and seeing Truman's reply makes me wonder too, why you have to scream into or eat the mic to get heard. I didn't dwell on that part of your post, rather the feasability of using a condenser mic live.

It is true that a condenser, as a general rule, is going to be "hotter" than a dynamic mic but there are inherent problems that arise from that. Your problem sounds more like either a mic problem or a gain structure issue.

I primarily perform solo and, for the most part, plug my acoustic and one mic into the PA. I use a Carvin CM68 as my primary vocal mic because it does a great job on my voice. It is Carvin's version of the SM58 though I think it is closer to the Beta58, at least for my voice. That mic has the lowest output of any dynamic mic in my arsonal other than an old pair of Electro-Voice omnis. In many of the venues I perform I'm between 6" and 12" from the mic with no need to scream or eat the mic, and without feedback mind you....
That leads us back to agreeing with Truman that you have a problem with either the mic or the gain structure, not the fact that it's a dynamic mic and not a condenser.

Herbie Gaines hit the nail on the head. If I look "off mic" it's gone, I do not really have to scream at the mic as much as I have to eat it, and I want to be a bit "More free"

Part of the "gain structure" problem I feel is I have a condencer that is super hot and a 58 that is...well a 58. Because the condencer is so hot, to get the mix right I have the gains down so as not to feed back. With out the condencer I can bring the 58 into play but I like the sound I get from the condencer on the guitar, that is why I was thinking go with another condencer for the vocals...or get an out board EQ, which would be another piece to carry around so I thought changing mic's would make more sense

My set up.
SM 58 and CAD GXL 1200 Condenser mic to...
Behringer MX802A ( great board...don't bash the behringer)
3 ch. on board eq.to...
Peavey Ecoustic 112 with a 5 band on board eq

The SM58 is a good mic, but it might not be the right mic for your voice, or style. Among my favorite handheld condensor mics:

AKG C535EB- A very well behaved cardioid, handheld. It has a switchable pad, and two position high filter. Very clean souding top end.

Shure Beta 87- Another well behaved vocal condensor.

Neumann KMS 105- Wonderfull mic. Bring cash, it isn't cheap.


Don't rule out dynamic mics though. There are a lot of good ones out there that may suit you. Audix has a few nice mics,like the OM5. I've heard good about the OM7. The Sennheiser MD 431 is another terrific dynamic, though like the Neumann it isn't cheap.

Do your best to audtion any replacement. It might be worthile rening an assortment of mics from a local sound company, so that ou cnas really know if your replacement is better than your current mic.

Good luck

Tns
I had a behringer 2024 dspro virtualizer..it just broke after only using it maybe a dozen times.....gggggrrrrrrrrr....I hope your board holds up for you.....

Herbie

If your condenser is over-riding the system to the point you can't get the dynamic working another condenser will be worse.

Your setup is basically similar to what I run though I run direct to a PA/powered mixier rather than an acoustic amp. What is your signal chain? I'm presuming you are running your mics into the mixer and then to the instrument input on the amp. Yes?
If so, leave your amp eq flat, set your tone with the mixer channel controls. If you have a particular frequency that feeds back here and there is when you'll use the on-board eq to cut that frequency range. Set the volume to a reasonable level for the venue and then go to the mixer. Set that output to a reasonable level, (I'm not familiar with that mixer) and then each individual channel to bring up the volume to where you need it. You should be able to get your volume on both mics and not resort to eating the mic. Keep in mind that any mic will lose you if you turn your head away from the mic.
Oh, make sure the amp is out front, or beside you, not behind you.


If you really want to be able to move around you'll really need to use a pickup on the guitar and a headset mic.
When you mic a guitar and a vocal you are locked into a small zone.

Part of my problem is the mixer just has a 3 band eq so I am forced to use the eq on the amp. Most of my venues are small, some I do not even take the amp along. My thinking with two condensers I would/could be more balanced in the mix.

I like the mic on the guitar over a pick up because I can change the volume by steping in or out, some songs I strum/use a pick, others I finger pick (use just fingers, no pick).

I loose it when I look at the neck (i know don't look at the neck, been doing it to long to stop now) or when I back away from the mic with the guitar on a "Harder driven" song

In the small venues I am not going for "LOUD" I am going for Ambiance.

I can "Belt out" a song and get the job done, but I want to be able to do it with feeling.

I am using the mixer for the phantom power for the condenser. My amp has two ch. one has an XLR for the mic and the other a 1/4,
(this is where I plug the mixer in) I can use an adapter on the 1/4 and run a 57 for the guitar and use the other input for the 58...I am just looking for more

Simply put, you're asking for the impossible with what you have. There is no way you're going to keep vocal volume on a consistent level when you turn away from the mic.
That said, and I mentioned above, at many of my gigs I'm 6" to 12" away from the vocal mic so if I look off to the side, or up and down a bit, including the fretboard, it doesn't lose all that much.
The more mics open the more chance for feedback.

Now, I often set up my system in my living room with multiple mics and can easily get a nice mic to guitar mix with no feedback, and at, if needed, fairly loud levels. That leads me to believe it's more likely your signal chain and settings.

Now, this ain't exactly right but will get you going better, I think....

Get the amp off the floor. Make sure it is NOT behind you.
Plug the mixer out/s into the amp's input/s. Set the amp volume to, say, 30% as a start. Leave the amp's eqs flat. Plug both mics into the mixer and set channel eq, gain and levels there. You may have to pan one channel hard right and the other hard left, they'll combine in the mixer and go to the amp as one. Start with the top knob, gain, at 50% on both channels. Turn the bottom, level, knob up as needed. Re-adjust the gain to bring up one mic or the other as needed.
Essentially you want the gain set to bring the mic signal just to the point where you start hearing it bring in noise, then back it off just a bit. Then, with your amp volume set where you want it, adjust the individual channel output levels to get out of that channel what you want and into the amp.
With a dynamic mic your gain may be up at 75% or more and a condenser may be below 50% and have the same relative volume going out. That does't always hold true however. I have a beyerdynamics condenser mic that is low in output, similar to many dynamics.

It still looks to me like a signal chain/gain structure problem, not an equipment problem.