JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Musician Message Forum Nashville song development service / work with any budget

Need a demo?
Need collaboration?
I'm an indie Nashville 20 year veteran musician/producer with a state of the art studio here in my home. I've worked with everyone from Shelby Lynne to Charlie Pride. Came to Nashville with a record deal back in the late '80s. Deal went south because of lack of money, so I stayed here and opened my own studio. Learned the biz, had a few cuts. Worked with literally hundreds of great artists and writers -- who you may never hear on the radio, but should.
I got a long history. But I love what I do, and I have the names and numbers to back my credentials.
Would love to be of service. My rates are low, but I'm willing to work with any budget, or serve in any capacity.
Here's link to my 'songwriter's service' page if you want to know more:
http://tinyurl.com/2fud5d5
I'd love to meet ya. Blessings.

Hello, welcome to the JPF.

The link -- http://tinyurl.com/2fud5d5 -- didn't work for me.

Kevin

Didn't work for me, either.
Ott

Here you go, gentlemen.

http://www.kevinwicker.com/songwriterservice.htm

Donna

Hi

This is interesting. On the webpage provided by Kevin, he quotes testimonials from a man I'm on fond of but he also quotes one from Paramount, which I think is the same Paramount spoken of in less than positive heart warming terms on most songwriter sites.

Sure does read like the same type operation as paramount -- "will put your lyrics to music". Of course, as long as they (Progress Music Nashville) delivers what they promise, then it is not a scam. It doesn't seem as if they are promising plugging services at all.

Plus it was just sort of a drive by posting, anyway.

Kevin

A music service that offers to put your lyrics to music is not at all necessarily a scam. I'm sure that many, probably a great majority of services like that are run by folks who want nothing more than to be part of a very successful song. The problem is, it's not a very good business model to begin with, from either side. For the lyricist, it doesn't provide the editing, critiquing, and the relationship benefits of a partnered cowriter. For the service, it is a business model that is generally thought of as being similar to payday loan or rent to own companies.

The lyricist usually enters into an agreement with such companies for two reasons. Either, 1.) because they cannot or will not do the networking and interacting involved in finding cowriting partners, or 2.) they find themselves flattered and have been "sold" on the service.

Don't be sold anything you don't need or want, or anything which you have not researched. The truth is, you've got to do your homework. Brush your teeth. Comb your hair. Straighten up and look me in the eye when you shake my hand.

In the meantime, Kevin is a one hit wonder, sort of like Question Mark and the Mysterians without "96 Tears." Kevin...Kevin...Kevin....?

Doesn't sound like a scam to me. Sounds like a demo producer for hire. Which is only a scam if you believe the entire Nashville "songwriter" dream machine is a scam (which maybe it is and maybe it isn't - only the dreamer can put a dollar value on a dream).

You pay the guy an agreed upon fee and in return you receive a competently produced musical demo of your song or songs.
If that's a scam, then much of the Nashville music business is a scam, since producing vanity demos for amateur songwriters is a big part of the business.

This sounds like a fee for service transaction. Only the songwriter/purchaser can decide if a hard copy recording of his song is worth what it costs.

If the songwriter believes that a competently recorded version of his song will in someway advance his career, magically lead to a publishing deal or in some other way lead to riches and fame, then he's only scamming himself.

My advice: If you think you have a song that's good enough that you want to show it off to family and friends, and if you can afford the $100-$300 bucks a demo producer will charge, go ahead and do it. But don't expect more than that from the demo.

FWIW, I will vouch for Kevin... He's above board and does a great job. I haven't used him myself yet but I have heard his work many times on songs with friends of mine. I actually contacted him myself this fall for work on a project that has since been delayed due to several factors (I owe you an email, Kevin) But I WILL be using him as soon as I get it all worked out. If you go back and listen to most of Roy Harris's songs in mp3 forum. Kevin did many of the productions on them

Here's a link to one of Roy's songs he did with Kevin.

http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthr...s&topic=0&Search=true#Post848794

Greg, you never looked better than in your new avatar!

Howdy and Welcome to JPF

I think people have to be very careful when putting labels like "Scam" on any product or service.
From what I can see the person is offering a service. If he delivers on what he offers it is not a scam.

I agree with Mike Dunbar that you can accomplish this same thing by putting in a lot of work yourself. Networking, building relationships, etc. Done right you may not need a "Demo" service.

It's does IMHO fall on the person offering such services to be at least minimally honest with a potential client.
If you send them Garbage to produce you will get Garbage back. A demo/producer service should be able to recognize this.
It should not boil down to Caveat emptor.

"It should not boil down to Caveat emptor."

So Bill, are you saying that if a demo service receives a work order for a song that is not well written, they should refuse it?

Some people love garbage :-) Some don't know the difference :-) Most experienced producers recognize garbage, but even garbage sells, and they don't get paid to evaluate the song, do they?

As a company, first you can't discriminate customers, and tell some their songs are garbage, and to some that their's are hits, and secondly you can't because there really is no way of knowing..

I would say, this is an odd business proposition if your work is worth a lick, but seems like Kevin is offering his full experience and contacts on top of his services (at least that's what I would expect when "collaboration" is mentioned).

Just remember the professional paperwork..
- what's the deal?
- who does what?
- who pays for what?
- who owns what?
- what is "what"?

Hey Magne,

I just checked out Kevin's website. I don't see anything at all that promises other than quality recording and/or adding music to lyrics. Perhaps Kevin, in his original post above, means "collaboration" to be the joint labor of the songwriter and the producer? Of course it would be good to hear from Kevin himself regarding that. (Kevin...Kevin...?) By the way, his work sounds good and his prices are in line with others.

As far as a demo service refusing someone based on poor songwriting/singing etc., I'm not a lawyer, but it is possible that this would be called illegal discrimination. Again IANAL, but I would imagine that this would depend on whether the service is open to the general public, or offered, upfront, in a limited way. Again, it would come down to communication.

Absolutely not Mike. That is not the Demo service's call.
I would just think any legit service would be able to offer some guidance to wannabee songwriters.

We all know there are demo mills out there that will tell a writer anything they want to hear to get their money.

Would you honestly say you will demo ANYTHING sent to you regardless of how bad it is. Knowing the writer is going to pitch the song to a publisher?

Put another way.
Your transmission is failing in your car. You take it to a transmission service company for a new transmission. When the mechanic checks the car he hears grinding coming from the motor. Perhaps the Crankshaft is shot or it is getting ready to throw a rod. The shop could replace the transmission knowing full well the motor is about to go. Hence the car will be "garbage". OR the shop could say to you. Hey we can do this and charge you $1000.00 but the car is a piece of crap and you would be better off not fixing it.
But we will be glad to fix the transmission if you want us to.

Bill,

There's a big difference between a transmission and a song. If the transmission doesn't work...it doesn't work.

We have members here, who have been professional musicians for years, who disagree about whether a song is good or not. No, I think if a studio offers good quality at a reasonable price without making covert promises or overt ego stroking, that they are acting ethically even when they do not offer unsolicited criticism.

Yes, without caveat emptor as a firm principle, we lose our freedom. The most important freedom we have is the freedom to fail. Without it, we are simply ruled by the elite. If studio owners stopped folks from recording things that they thought were wrong, we might have never had a Bob Dylan, or a Grateful Dead, or heard Louis Armstrong sing.

Of course, though, I agree with you that if a service is luring people, making false promises, using praise, or selling connections, they are being unethical. Just not if they are simply avoiding critiquing.

Now, having said that, there is also nothing wrong with a studio offering unsolicited opinions. But I think it is wrong if they refuse service.

Plastic surgeons perform operations daily on folk who do not need it....and probably look worse after having it. They perform the op to the best of their ability and everybody is happy.

Mike
You missed the point. Putting a new transmission in a car that is bound for the junk yard is a waste of time and money. If the repair shop doesn't tell you the car isn't worth fixing, no matter how much you love the car, I think the repair shop is acting a little shady.
If you still want the transmission, so be it. They should install it.

Putting an expensive production on a song that is badly written and has no melody, no rhyme, no structure, is also a waste of time and money. IF the sole purpose of the song is to pitch to artists.
Having said that if the song is for personal use I guess it doesn't matter.

If the person wants the song demoed then the studio should do the demo. Refusing service would be wrong.

Bill, a car can be proven to be not worth fixing (but even then, I'm sure that someone, somewhere, is restoring their Yugo). But a song is completely subjective. A song that most "experts" would agree is a bad song, may become a hit.

Now, having said that, I've often told clients that I didn't think their songs or singing were worth expensive recordings. Right now, I can't recall one instance where the client agreed. I know of several who left me, went down the street, and hired another (often more expensive) producer.

My general question, though, is this: is it unethical for a producer to not give their unsolicited opinion on the worth or "readiness" of a song? Even though I often give my opinion (imagine that!) I don't think someone who doesn't is being unethical.

I guess that's why I'd never make a good producer or demo service. If it was crap I'd tell them so.

But you are right Mike. It really wouldn't be "unethical" or a scam. But I think what goes around comes around.
I could never imagine you taking advantage of someone. That does not mean others won't.

Bill,

I think we may be zeroing in on consensus here.

Van Gogh was never popular in his lifetime. He was largely ignored by his contemporary critics. So, were the folks who sold him paint and canvas taking advantage of him?

Is it right for a producer or engineer to tell a songwriter that their songs are bad? But then wrong for that songwriter's father to tell them that their songs are bad? At what point are we destroying potential. And, then, are the songs bad according to whom? Me? You? Big Jim?

No, the more I think about it, the more I think it becomes caveat emptor. Let the buyer beware. There's a reason why this became a famous legal principle. Discrimination? I don't want the sporting goods salesman to refuse to sell me expensive golf clubs because I suck at golf. Regulation? I don't want the Minister of Music saying I can't be a musician, or I can't help someone with their dream.

My general question, though, is this: is it unethical for a producer to not give their unsolicited opinion on the worth or "readiness" of a song? Even though I often give my opinion (imagine that!) I don't think someone who doesn't is being unethical.
_________________________

Hi Mike,

Hey I just found this thread. Very interesting topic as usual. the subject of whether a demo house should provide opinions is very interesting to me. You mentioned that after telling people their song really isn't worth sinking a ton of money into--that they didn't agree and went elsewhere. Well that is their prerogative--I would be curious to see what ever came of those songs. LOl. But here's my take on the matter. If I were to get someone that has tons of experience, been in the business for years, runs a very successful recording studio--if I were to ask them to do a collab on a song I did--it would be because I really trust what they say and also that person has a proven track record. Now if that person actually agreed to do the collab with me--why would I not want to hear their opinion on how good the song was? Why would I not respect what that person said--good or bad--being that I was the one that sought them out in the first place? I suppose there are many people out there who put a pen to a piece of paper and once they get that "song" written feel it has to be a hit. In this day and age that seems pretty naive--especially if you haven't really written that great hit. So I would hope,for me,, that if I ever sent a song for demo, or was in the process of getting to that point, that I could get an honest opinion as to whether or not it was worth pursuing--before I sunk a tom of money into it. Does that make sense? Or maybe I'm just in the minority. LOl. Or maybe I'm just stingy with my money. LOl.

I know that any good recording studio will and should give advice as to how to produce a record and an honest opinion on how good the song is.....meaning if it is a worthwhile project and how far to take it. If a client wants a song recorded then it is up to them to decide based on this advice.....Either way the studio should provide the service..... after all they are a business. They have a reputation to look after SO they should do a good production regardless of the quality of the song they are producing. Anyone knowing anything about recording can tell a good production from a bad one even if the song itself stinks.

Should a tailor refuse to make a suit because the customer wants something like lady ga ga ridiculous and the tailor knows the customer would look stupid wearing it?

Roger, now you have brought up another point. For myself, when I cowrite on a song, I never charge for any recording work I do on it, except in certain specific cases. For example, if I am hired to cowrite a song for a tv commercial, I would also expect to be paid for any recording I might do. But if I am simply cowriting a song, I never charge for any of my work. Also, I never charge for cowriting itself, except in specific cases, such as the tv commercial. Having said that, I don't think it is illegal, unethical or immoral to do such, just not what I believe to be a good business practice. To me, it creates a conflict of interest which could lead to an ethical problem (the song could start sounding better when the rent is due ). But, I don't judge others who offer such services.

Should a tailor refuse to make a suit because the customer wants something like lady ga ga ridiculous and the tailor knows the customer would look stupid wearing it?


Lol,

Jim you are correct. The final decision is with the customer, I would like to know up front though, if they thought it was a waste of time and money. maybe I trust people too much. LOL. If an industry expert says my song probably won't go anywhere--then it's s still my decision, but I would probably back off figuring they have been there many more times than me. LOl. FWIW,
Roger

Mike,

You bring up another point as well. So lets say you co-write with another person and after the two of you get a worktape you're both really thinking it has further legs. how do you approach that? Being that you have a recording studio, I would think that you would expect some type of money to further the recording process?/ Would you not? Only makes sense to me. Again seems like it would be a decision between all the parties involved at that point and I would think you should charge something for the recording time,etc. I've always wondered about that type of thing. Not too many people have your experience and setups. LOl. gotta fly for now,
Roger

Roger,

My policy is, unless I'm cowriting a song for a specific purpose, such as a tv commercial, for an organization's theme song etc., I never charge for any work I do, that includes my studio.

Again, it's not that folks who have other policies are being unethical. It's just that there are so many services in the music business that are thought to be scams...even if they are not...that I find it much easier to do everything way over on the safe side of the line. That way there are no questions. And, it leads me not into temptation.

And, it leads me not into temptation

Mike,

Someone wrote a book about that. LOl. You obviously are a person with high integrity--wish more people in the world were like that. Thanks again for your input on this topic--as well as everyone else's. Have A Happy New Year,
Roger

How about this scenario.....

Your friend is dating someone and they cheat on your friend. It's not the first time but your friend kept believing in and dating the cheating lying conniving dog. Would you be wrong to not tell your friend about the new indiscretion? Do you think your friend would ever say "why didn't you tell me?"

I'm not sure there's anything wrong with being silent.

How about this scenario......

A guy with some crappy lyrics goes to a reputeable studio and asks them to do a demo....he is treated fairly and the guys there do the best job they can and charge him a fair price for their labours.... Is it their fault that the material they had to work with was not worth recording? To be fair 99.99% of all stuff recorded in studios makes dollar zip so what is the diff...the customer is happy and is always right.

Hi Jim,

How bout this scenario. LOl

A guy with some crappy lyrics goes to a reputeable studio and asks them to do a demo.

The studio says we'll be glad to do the demo but for what it's worth it may not do very well.

he is treated fairly and the guys there do the best job they can and charge him a fair price for their labours....

The song goes nowhere--but at least the studio told the guy what they felt so he was prepared. LOl. I still say if it's me and I brought a song to the studio I would like to hear their opinion up front before I sunk a lot of money into it.

HAppy New Year,
Roger

Before you go to any studio, talk to your team to determine if the song is ready to be recorded. You do have a team, don't you? (Yes, I stole the phrase from Mike Dunbar!)

Seriously, get the advice of some trusted people (not just friends and family) before spending a dime on a demo or recording. Paying a studio to record a song that is not ready is just throwing your money away. If you have money to do that, then send some my way!

Of course, if it is a vanity project, go for it. There's nothing wrong on spending money for something like that if you go into it with your eyes open.

Any songwriter should do homework before taking a song to a studio. Studios are not nursemaids and cannot be held responsible if the song itself is not much good. They can only do the best job they can with the material they are given. When all is said and done how can they predict how good a song is going to be or cast an opinion on its merit. Imagine a studio being asked if these lyrics were any good.......and worth making into a song. The studio should give advice and help but NOT be asked to be judge and jury over the potential of the song.
Any studio who could make such predictions would be billionaires.


Womanizer, woman-womanizer, you're a womanizer,
Oh womanizer, oh you're a womanizer, baby
You you you are, you you you are
Womanizer, womanizer, womanizer (womanizer)


Nobody in their right mind could call these words any good or worth turning into a song but the song was a huge hit.......so what is worth making into a song and what is not? That is an impossible call. As I said before 99.99% of songs produced by any studio statistically will get nowhere...so to ask if a song is WORTH doing is pointless in the first place.
It is up to the songwriter to determine what he wants recorded and how much he is willing spend on it to back it.

Jim,

You make a good point. My only thought on this was that studios see and make thousands of songs a year. For many years. you can't tell me they don't have a clue as to what's better than others. lol. As to predicting what will be a hit--then I agree with you--that's a toss up. Feedback would still be nice but it is what it is. LOl.

Roger I can only comment about the studios I have used and feedback from others.....most decent studios I know of have talented guys who are experienced and clever at what they do. They should give help and advice to any client who asks for it and answer any questions frankly and honestly......I do think it is finally up to the client to provide good material to work with in the first place and to ask the right questions.

I once worked on a horse stud, that bred race horses, anyways they employ vets to surgically correct leg faults and blacksmiths to do a similar thing with horse shoes and wedges... the truth of the matter is that neither process will actually change how the fast the horse will run, if anything both processes can potentially weaken the leg... so the only thing it does is cosmetic... Now ethically both should probobly tell the owners they are wasting money... but for the most part the owners don't want to know... if these guys don't do their thing and try to advise against it the owners will find someone else...

People have a right to earn a living and as long as they are not telling lies to rip off their clients ... Good luck to them.

Cheers

So I suppose all this is like American Idol.
Don't tell the idiots they will be ridiculed on public television with a few million people watching because they have no talent and look stupid.
Pass them on through the audition process just so Simon and company have some silly auditions to air to promote the program.
American Idol has a right to earn a living.

I see very few comparisons between a television contest and a recording service.

Better comparisons would be independent film crews, independent book publishers, theaters for rent, etc.

For that matter, never mind indie folks, how about folks who work with the majors. So, as a session musician, producer or studio owner, if I am hired by a record company, and I don't think the project they are asking me to work with is very good, is it my duty to tell the company unless they ask me? I don't think it is. It is my duty to do the best job I can for them. Suppose they had brought me "I Want to Kiss You All Over?" I thought that was very flawed. But it became a hit, to my surprise. How about "Achey Breaky Heart?" I'm sure there are many recording services full of folks who thought that song was terrible.

So, should a service have a different standard for an indie writer or artist? Why?

I did a recording for a guy, about ten years ago. The song was ridiculous and his singing was poor. I had done demos for him previously, good songs, using good demo singers...but he wanted to sing this one and it was never going to get anywhere. So we went in and gave it everything we had. He sold it as an ad for a business in his home town and made good money on it. If he had listened to me, he wouldn't have done the song.

Years ago, I played guitar on some songs for a songwriter. I was just the hired guitar player, so I didn't say anything, but I thought her songs were way to "folky" for Nashville. She ended up getting several Garth Brooks cuts. Good thing I didn't say anything.

But still, I can't help myself. Sometimes I just question people's readiness to invest money in their songs. As I've said, I can't think of one instance where they've agreed with me. Usually what happens then is they don't use me, but go ahead and use more expensive services LOL. I sure helped them, didn't I?

But here's another problem. Most of the work I do are on songs that I like. Most of the work I do gets indie releases. It's good stuff, you can hear a lot of it on my website. But I'm not sure how much of it has made even enough in sales to recoup the expense. So, let's not even consider if a song is good. Is it unethical for me, as a musician and producer, to work on music that I know has very little chance at success? If not, what's the difference? Why does it become, then, unethical to work something I might think is poor, even knowing that there's a chance it might buck the odds and have some success.

I am not even sure if a "good" (in my opinion) song has a much greater chance of becoming a hit than a "bad" (in my opinion) song. Let's ask Big Jim.

I just got off the phone with a buddy of mine who is in the music business. He said that he wouldn't trust the opinion of the average demo service concerning the quality of a song. They'd be shooting down good songs and giving passes to bad ones.

So, my advice is, Listen to Kevin Edward Rose:



And my advice if you're in the demo service business:

Do the absolute best job you can do on anything, no matter how you feel personally about it. Don't make promises that you can't keep. Don't use flattery tricks to get work.

As I said earlier studios are not and should not be used as judges of quality...they are there to provide a service to musicians and songwriters. In the main they provide a great service. There are of course some poor studios and scam merchants.....but MOST do an honest job of work at very reasonable rates. In fact very few studios make big bucks and most people are in it for the love of music rather than any other reason.
It is up to the people who use studios to do their homework. They should make sure that the song is worth spending money on and the studio is reputeable and will produce the kind of product they want.

Re Bills AI comments...well they are pretty irrelevant in the context of this thread. This type of program might be seen as entertainment....but to me it is abhorant...it exploits people with "problems" and it certainly does not produce much talent that I can see.

Mike and Jim,

Lol--this is a very subjective business is it not? Thanks again for your informative posts. you as well as everyone else make sense. I guess all you can do is your best and see what happens--and hopefully most people are in it for the fun and love of it. I know I am. i hope your holidays were great. Take care,
Roger

Well it looks like I lost this debate
I bow to my adversaries. Y'all done a fine job of presenting your case.

So let's do a demo.

Interesting read here folks!
I've been out of pocket lately. Just had a baby over the holidays! (Lauren Elizabeth Wicker / Dec. 7th). You can imagine I had a Merry Christmas indeed! No sleep, but so worth it!

Looking over the previous entries, needless to say I found it interesting how we went from a songwriter service to transmissions! HAHA That's to be expected with creative folk.

If I may I 'd like to elaborate a bit here:
I am a credited writer and demo producer in Nashville. Haven't been hugely successful, but I rub shoulders with those who have been.
I've served the Nashville writer's community for 21 years. I have a few credentials and some successful folk who can vouch for me. Some you've heard of. Some you haven't. I'd be more than happy to provide you with e-mail addresses and such, just in case you're interested but shy. I certainly understand!
My services have been moderately successful, and I've demoed songs that became big hits. I've done countless independent projects for a variety of artists, which were responsible for taking them to the next level. So...

Scam artist? No.
Have I earned money for my services from scam artists? Yes. I have to pay my bills. But that doesn't make me a scam artist or an unprofessional.
Hey, I survived. Being in and around the Nashville scene, I know what is expected with what I do.
And Nashville can be a tough town, although there's so many wonderful and talented people here from all over!

And I don't have to tell you the horror stories. Being successful here depends solely depends on one's knowledge: not just what you know, and WHO you know, but WHO KNOWS YOU and what they want from you for the moment. That's it in a nutshell!
That's street logic from the Row. I had a studio on the Row for 10 years.
I've had the privileged to hear some incredible songs and artists over the years that the world will never hear -- but should have. So I'm not putting in my hat for the next hit song from anyone -- especially if they're not here in Nashville getting to know people.
:))

My angle is very simple.
I offer a service to songwriters, making demos -- or I'd like to call it 'song development'. I simply do my best to make each tune as pitchable and marketable as I can. I'm not really in it to get any songwriter credits, per se. If I see a line that needs to be vamped -- or hear something that will compliment the song -- I will offer a suggestion. If the writer likes the idea, we use it. I don't necessarily want any credit as co-writer. And although it sounds cheesy, I enjoy seeing people get happy about their music because of my efforts and contributions.

I make my money producing the demos.
How?
I play all the instruments -- and occasionally hire a fiddle player or steel man (depends on what the song/client calls for).
There are writers/producers all over this town who have their own studios, who produce outside projects, so I'm nothing out of the ordinary.

What I do find that is unique about my services is that I am more interested in how I can make the song commercial for the client, instead of just making money. I'm in it to make money to support my family. I'm not rich by no means. But I do better doing this than working in a warehouse (which is all you get in Nashville when all you've done is play music).

I remember the days of the Music Row scams. I was around them -- they were my neighbors. Hell, I WORKED for some of them. They preyed on people's ignorance and ego. They were flourishing until the Majors, and the advent of technology, drowned them out. I watched it happen! I stayed in business because I give folk what they pay for.

Well, I could go on and on. What you want to know about me is always available. I'm legit, experienced -- and i feel I do pretty good work. I certainly take pride in my work. I won't let it leave the studio if I don't like it.

I'm new to forums, because I've always worked in Nashville one on one with the writers. Now that everyone has a studio and a CD, it affected my business..

It all boils down to an invitation. Give me a try, and see for yourself. And just for being interested enough in replying, I'm giving everyone who participated here a discount for your next demo. $200 Full Blown Demo -- no strings attached. Sound like a plan?

I'm looking forward to getting to know some of ya. Sorry I was late getting back. I won't be such a stranger now...

Blessings.
Kevin Wicker

Welcome to JPF Kevin.....it is refreshing to hear a frank and honest take on the biz in Nashville.....I wish you well and hope you continue your work....I am sure that some of the JPF folk will take you up on your kind offer and await to hear the results.
From my own experience MOST studios are like yourself straight up guys with an honest up front manner who will do their best to produce great music at a fair price and not rip off clients. Sadly there are SOME who are not so HONEST......they give us ALL a bad name.

Interesting read there, Kevin and welcome to the JPF. I hope folks who need demos take a peek at your services. Besides, we seem to running low on Kevin's around here.