JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Industry Message Forum Do Country Music Believe In Audience Interpretations

Hell;o.. Everyone..:)


I have sooooo many Questions going through my mind right
now..about My role as a ''Lyricist...vs..Styles of Writing.


*****Is there a such thing as a corny Country Song?
*******I have read several articles and books,,regarding
different Styles of writing,,..Structures etc...

***** One major point I have learned is''that Country
Music has to be''Conversational..[Is this true]..
all the time,,or can you opt out to write with
another form..concept.. idea.. without constraints
or dictates..


....I'm very interested in hearing some
feed back..:)...I luv country Music...
every since I was a lil girl..sooooo
my fondness for'' Country Movies..songs..
The whole Persona of Country goes
far beyond..My desire to write an
good old fashion''Old traditional
Western ''Country Song,,...:)


See you all in a few;o
I can't wait to hear
from ya,,:)

Shirl;o

Corny song? Google ALL OF THE MONKEYS AIN'T IN THE ZOO. You can decide if it is corny or not.

''... ...Okay.. Ray..I will def. do that..:)
I will goggle''All Monkeys Ain't In The Zoo..
;o...thanx for stopping by to comment~~



''....:)

See you in a few;o
Shirl;o

DISCLAIMER: What follows is just my opinion.

Here is a song that I always thought was corny.

hear it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAGCFo-0LV4
lyrics: http://www.metrolyrics.com/i-love-you-drops-lyrics-bill-anderson.html

I should also say that was a huge hit and I love that song. I do think it's corny though. I wish I was brave enough and talented enough to write something that corny.

Here's a more modern song I thought was corny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpMX1OLlwq0
lyrics: http://www.cowboylyrics.com/lyrics/owen-jake/yee-haw-16921.html

I didn't like that song at all. In fact, it offended me. I thought it took pot shots at people who like country music. That may not have been the intent but that's how it struck me.

So, in my opinion, yeah, there's such a thing as a corny country song. Some are good corn, some are bad corn.

Shirley, how far back do you go? Everybody is younger than me pretty much.

Tonight I heard "I Prayed For You." From everything I hear, from reading Barnett on here to listening to Crook and Chase and TV, that's a controversial song. Tonight I thought of just how "against the rules" it is. SO WHAT? It's a cute song. Somebody had the courage to break out of the box! Hallelujah!

In the 80s Hank Jr. did an old jazz standard called "Ain't Misbehaving" and a year later followed it up with a dynamic bopper called "Born To Boogie" and followed that with perhaps the most country song he'd done in years - "Heaven Can't Be Found." He had courage! He broke out of the box!

Hank Williams wrote about a wooden indian standing by a door! Someone wrote a song about Indian Outlaws and Tim McGraw became a legend. Then there was this one about a famous encounter with the indians: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpA_X_7ktnQ&feature=related and this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9V-9dSPb_A

I'm not sure if all these could be called corny but they are unique. Some of them I like and some of them I don't. But all of them were hits.

I don't know the answer Shirley but the big part of me wants to say write what you want to write. There are so many songs that shouldn't make it but do and so many that don't make it that should that I've come to believe no one knows for sure.

I wrote a song that I thought would irk a lot of people in modern Nashville and a guy who lived in Nashville for a long time told me he thought most people there would love it.

There were two songwriting "eras" in Nashville back in the 80s. The first half was sort of ruled by a duo that wrote a lot of pop sounding stuff...you know, stuff that was country when country wasn't cool. Then in the second half there was another duo that ruled the roost. They wrote a lot of simple little ditties that were a far cry from being pop. Both groups wrote a lot of hits and sold a lot of records. One was smooth satin and the other was rough burlap.

Good luck! Have fun!

I just noticed the three folks in this thread so far all come from Georgia. God bless us!

That Billy Currington is from Georgia. He sings some corny stuff in my opinion. Then it becomes a hit!

Conversational? Absolutely

Corny? Can be.

Listen to today's country radio. The songs need to be easily understood stories with good melodies and interesting instrumentation. Which is really not a bad recipe for any genre. Listen to the radio for a few hours and you will get most of the answers you need.

At the same time I write whatever songs I feel like writing -- while still hoping they come close to songs that might be considered contemporary country.

Kevin

''..Whoa.. Ray...All Monkeys Ain;t in the zoo...
it;s a hill billy type of song..and the dude
does have some descent chops..;;;but this is corny
and comical ..I guess..but Why sing a song like
this '''when he can do better....Why settle..


See you in a few;o
Shirl;o

Hell;o Sasuagelink..it;s good to see ya..
lol.lo.lo..I agree ..There's good corn..
and bad corn..but I find it interesting that you
found''Yee Yaw,,offensive...hmmmmmm......
I luv'' Randy Owens..Is Jake Owens related
to''Randy Owens..:)...

you have some very good valid points..Sasuage link
just write what you wanna write..because we just don;t know
what can be a hit...;o..


****** Sausage link..I don;t know if I;m
younger than you..but lol.lol..I will be 53[I;m mighty proud]
in nov..of this year 2010..I feel like i;m
30..I still have a young spirit and soul..
so I enjoy kickin it with my grown children..
wonderful children I have been blessed..


Whoa..hmmmmmm..so Maybe one day you will
tell me your''real name..;o
it;s all good..Sausage link..


You have fun too..Sausagelink..
it;s always a joy talking to ya..;o



Shirl;o

Shirley, a couple thoughts. I should preface them with a disclaimer. I am not, never have been, nor probably will I ever be a country music star. Accordingly, plan on a big dose of salt.

I don't know about the "conversational." Maybe. I maintain my stuff ought to sound like a real person talking, but I'm not sure that's genre-specific--oughtn't it sound like that no matter what? If not, how are people going to understand you? I think the *imagery* in country music tends to be "earthier"; as the late Steve Goodman once said, "Country music songs are written about Mother, trucks, trains, farms, prison, dead dogs and Christmas." I realize the current crop of country music doesn't pay any attention to that, but I don't play or listen to the current crop of pap, either.

Corny? Well, corn is a farm product. I don't see why not. Rural folks tend to be very good at poking fun at themselves. I remember hearing Dolly Parton tell some TV talk-show host, "It costs a lot of money to look this cheap." I don't think Britney Spears or any other pop icon would be caught dead saying something like that. They all take themselves way too seriously. (And I, of course, have been accused of taking nothing seriously.)

I really don't think there are any constraints except the ones you set for yourself. The books are full of rules--rather rigid-sounding rules--and I consider them only suggestions. (True, some of them are very good suggestions.) There are a lot of big-name writers (all old ones--I mostly don't listen to the new ones) who have managed to write very good material while ignoring anywhere from some to all of those rules. The "operative question" is what they did to enable them to get away with it.

Go for it. Lots of luck, and have fun.

Joe

Hell;o.. It;s good to see you..

Yes.!!.I have moved to the head of the class..
country is conversational..:)..Hmmmmmm..

Kevin you have some interesting thoughts..
Is it safe to say that''Nashville..is like
the Motown of R&b..of course two different
genres but they both are Powerhouses...
as far as producing''mainstream successful artist..''

''..I have never been to Nashville ..but
I heard soooooo many good things about
Nashville..one dude told me that one visit
had him packing and ready to move,,..
to Nashville..'':)..He was a Musician/Lyricist


Thanx for Stopping by Kevin..
dude,,Take care,,,;o
it;s a joy talkin g to ya,,;o


See you in a few;o
Shirl;o

Whoa..Joe Hell;o...


Now youre really spinning some different thoughts
about ''the Perception Of Country Music...''...
hmmmmmmm,,I hear what youre saying Joe..
Sooooo,''Please correct me if I;m wrong..
but''did you say that some''Country folks
have a tendency to poke fun at themselves..
when they are singing Country music...


This is an interesting thought Joe,,
and;;I think when you can honestly
laugh at yourself..''you have some beautiful
attributes.. ;;I luv Dolly Parton.....
you know she really does ,,''poke fun
at herself..:) she is a classy lady
with a beautiful spirit..you can't help
but love her,,:)..


**** Thanx..Joe ..It;s a pleasure
to talk to ya,,:)



See You in a few;o
Shirl;o

Corny country? Hehe, I think 'corny' is an outsiders term for humor he/she don't really like.. but, humorous, yes. An artist like Brad Paisley is well known for humorous songs, and many country artists are. There's a lot of joking around with 'opposites' titles like "Good ways of doing bad things" or "A big tractor in a small skirt" (just my examples) :-)

Conversational country? Wellawellawella well what kind of word is that :-) Country is supposed to be the simple man's music, and therefore needs to be more Wall Mart than Hallmark, but simple people get to higher educations too these days, so things are perhaps not as black & white, I think. Who wants to be named simple these days, and who really IS?

So, you'd have to know the artists audience in order to answer the question, conversational.. for whoM? Here there are a h... of a lot difference between Faith Hill and Trace Adkins, so I think you can get away with more 'pop'ish' lyrics (metaphors'n stuff) now, but I think the general picture still is to write it like you'd say it (and mostly in the south too.. Georgia should be fine ).

Take a little time to listen to ASCAP vice president Ralph Murphy here http://www.cfmae.org/ralph-murphy-lecture-how-to-be-successful-at-songwriting-2/ . I think he's got it covered very well :-)

And remember, I'm from Norway, a million miles away, so what do I know! Certainly nocentsinvolved

Shirley,

Since I teach songwriting and approach to Nashville, I guess I can take this one with a little perspective. I missed you two weeks ago in Atlanta. I hope to go back before long, hope you can join us the next time.


Does country believe in "Corney lyrics"? Yes. If this was 1975. The term "Corney" came out of the fact that most country singers used to be right off the farm, and many came "right out of the cornfield." That is why early singers used to wear overalls in their act. They didn't have any other clothes.

It was very prevalant in the 60's and 70's with the television show "Hee Haw" which featured segments in the cornfield. That was country humor. There were songs like "If I said you have a Beautiful Body Would You Hold It against me" a lot of things like that. Now you would have your butt kicked by some feminist woman.

The lyrics of country music are most often straight forward and are presented as most people actually speak. Since over half of the songs you hear on the radio are something someone actually said in real life, it is pretty much a given that they are conversational. That is where writers get ideas, from observing real life.

The sincerest form of flattery is to do songs that people come up and say "You are writing my life." Now since the majority of our target audience is younger, 16-45, mostly female, and the artists are overall younger, we have to say things as under 30 people would, and most of those people would not say something that would make them look foolish.

The song "I Pray for you" written by a friend of mine, Joel Butlinger" is a case in point. The song, is from a guy singing about his former girlfriend and going to church takes away what the preacher says, "Pray for those who have wronged you." So he does. He Prays that "Her plane falls out of the sky, she gets hit in the head by a plant, that her breaks fail.." about every bad thing that could happen to her.

It does break about every rule and I would have never taken it that way because generally you can never make anyone look bad in a song. I would have turned it on myself and portrayed it as the girl is saying this about me." That would have been safer. But this one is VERY well written and it is all tongue in cheek.And it is something that people most definately say to ex's.

It caught fire, and reached number 34 on the charts, without a record label. Most of it's success was due to a very funny video that hit You Tube and went viral. After that it was picked up by Scott Borchetta, the president of Taylor Swift's label, Big Machine records who redid the video with super hot Hollywood actress Jaimie Preistly, and it is now on it's way either further up the ladder. Some things just happen. Can't be explained.

My mentor, Jimbeau Hinson always uses the phrase "Tag, Touch and Tickle." We are trying to write songs that "TAG" people and get and keep their attention, "TUG" which means we have an emotional componant that tugs on the heartstrings, or "TICKLE" where we either make them chuckle, smile, laugh out loud, or want to party
to.

Since artists now are as likely to come from a Chicago blues environment, New York, Detroit, LA, Kansas City, etc. the "Corney" title has been discarded for an effort of "Keeping it real."

More than anything that you can do is 'read your lyrics" out loud, as if you were in a conversation with another person. If you can say it without feeling foolish, like reciting poetry, in a Shakespearean theory class, or in some moralizing preaching configuration, you are probably alright. And if you can make people want to go "what was that? I've got to hear THAT again,"
That is exactly what you are trying to do.

Hope this makes sense. I have been traveling quite a bit over the weekend and we had a benefit concert last night to raise money for the Nashville flood victims. I have an early appointment today where I have to put into practice exactly what I just told you. I hope I can do it.


MAB

For more songs by Tommy Collins just Google him. He wrote songs that probably wouldn't be played on today's radio.

Also Google Cal Smith.
COUNTRY BUMPKIN
THE LORD KNOWS I'M DRINKIN'
Where are those type songs today???

Ray,

I played a show last night with Don Wayne, the other writer on
"Country Bumpkin." It was great. Also Jimmy Payne (Woman, Oh Woman, David Lee (1970 something, Letters from Home) and a ton of other writers, Hall of Famers, present day hit makers all over the place. There are still some pretty cool songs out there. A lot of them.

Don went with us to Washington a couple of years back. We were in a Congressman's office and asked "Do you have any favorite songs in your life?" He said "My Wife and I always loved Country Bumpkin.' We said "Well, we just happen to have the writer of that song right here." And Don stepped up and played the song.

We went from making 8 cents per copy sold to 9.1 cents. Always pull on the heartstrings.

MAB

Marc, Don Wayne and Jimmy Payne are two wonderful fellows. I've played several times with Don, have an autographed number chart of one of his other hits "Saginaw Michigan." Jimmy Payne was the first "major" writer in Nashville to mentor me. I met him at an NSAI meeting and he invited me over to his house for a writing session. Nashville amazes me, in my experience, it's been full of helpful, friendly people always ready to lend a hand. The secret to the biz, IMO, is to be a person like that.

Shirley, Country audiences are surprising. I play a barndance whose audience is mostly older folks. They love the corny songs, the dirt road songs, the real country songs...songs often referred to as "stupid." Yet some of these folks I've met have included Air Force generals, chemical engineers, architects, and college professors. I guess they just like to hear a good story.

Well Marc, Mike,
I love those old country songs also. I am just a COUNTRY BUMPKIN.

Ray Stevens is back doing an entire CD of comedy and patriotic songs. Roger Miller made an entire career out of it. They are out there. Not always on mainstream radio but they are most definately out there.

MAB

''Hell;o.. Ray..Thanx for stopping by again..:)
I'm def. going to check '''out That'' Country Bumpkin''
Piece.. I;m diggin the title..:)....


***** Dude there are so many variables ''that
come into play''...I don;t think We will ever
be able ''to reconstruct The Times..of Yester
years,, sooooo..I don;t know where those
types of songs have vanished to..Ray,,
We are playing with very different
type of Mediums..''downloads..Remixes
etc...



Speak Soon~~

Shirl;o

Hell;o..Marc..:;o
It's A Pleasure to finally meet you..
You're def. a person of interest:)


****
I have been checking you out for days..You have a very nice''Spread..Marc..I enjoy reading your Post..
They Are very stimulating .Thanx for the smiles..I reside in The Midwest...soooo..Maybe We can hook up one day and you can ;o;tell me more about''The adventures of your journey as a teacher of Songwriting..you appear to be an excellent ''Storyteller''...I luv..Storytellers,,,,;o


You prob, have some amazing stories to tell..:)...
Marc yo u have touched on so many issues pertaining
to'''The Music Industry...Dude ''The Hee Haw TV
Program was a joy to watch..It conjures up so many
memories..:)..I love the spirit..of the People
of Hee Haw,,I truly miss this type of TV Program..
Roy Clark..and I think there '''was Junior...
Minnie Pearl''The Hee Haw Girls..etc....
That Cornfield ''represented so much to me...
Marc..As A young lady growing up in the Era
of The 1970's..[Which were my high school years]



Dude ''what amazes me about you is that
youre ''really There ''up close and
Personal with a lot of..''well known
People in The Music..Industry....
and you ''have a dignified ''way
of disclosing this information
to us,,it;s very reality based..
and I thank you kindly for
sharing informing and discussing
what your''take is about a
particular subject matter..
I luv the humor,,...:)

lol.lo.llo..Marc.. I think
you hit it right on the nail..
..by saying' And
I quote:


More than anything that you can do is 'read your lyrics" out loud, as if you were in a conversation with another person.
.....I heard that dude..and that;s an interesting concept..
I luv;o;Shakespeare and the Operas ..soooo.. perhaps this will
employ me to..''increase my level of concentration..lol.lol.
Marc...Its has been a joy talkin to you...:) My friend..
and I have a feelin that youre going to rise''up to each
and every occasion this game of life brings you...:)



Speak Soon~~
:;o
Shirl;o

Hell;o .Mike...;o
it;s good to see ya..



**AW MIke I would love To Be present
at A Barndance..Whoa..I don;t think
there's any thing corny about..this

****You have sooo much chance and opportunities
to meet''with People from all ''Walks of life..:)
''A Grass Roots.. type of Atmosphere..

**** I;m very glad Mike ;;that youre there
to continue these traditions.. ...

Thanx for stopping by..
Mike it;s a joy talking to ya..;o
And Yes I feel that;s it;s all
about ''the Storytelling...
As it relates to 'Country Music..'o


See you in a few;o
Shirl;o

Corniest songs EVER (in my opinion):

"Billy, Don't Be a Hero" recorded by Bo Donaldson and the Heywoods

"Having My Baby" (don't know who that guy was!)

"D-I-V-O-R-C-E" recorded by Tammy Wynette

Soooo many corny songs, so little time!

Shame on you, Polly, for going after a local group like the Heywoods. What kind of Cincinnatian are you?

BTW, Having My Baby was by Paul Anka.

Closest I can think of to a corny song is "Don't Squeeze My Charmin." Don't know who wrote it, but when you hang out with elderly musicians, you can hear a lot of strange stuff. Most of it, though, I don't think is any cornier than some of the stuff I've written, so I don't feel inclined to complain. Even "Did I Shave My Legs for This?" (author also unknown).

Joe

Written by Deana Carter (who performed it) and Rhonda Hart.

Country music should hit you where you live, tell you your life, next to Gospel, it is probably the truest form of music there is. Down to earth, telling it like it is in plain language. Even corny songs can have a message in it, like laughing at ourselves, don't take yourself too serious. Country can make you laugh, sing, dance, cry and think, what else can you ask from music.

Polly,

"Having My Baby" was Paul Anka. He wrote the Tonight show theme, My Way for Elvis and Frank Sinatra and hundreds of other songs many that were huge hits. Most would not consider that a "corney" song.

I think we need to define what everyone is talking about. the term "corney" songs is pretty much a deceased term as many are.It is really not applicable any more, much like we were talking about "Dixie" Music the other day.

Corney now is a negative distinction and really not even used that much in the music industry. "Corney" would mean "overly sentamental" or "stupid".

What I think most of you are talking about here would be known as "Humorous" songs. As radio formats tightened, certain songs were dropped from the format. Those would have been people like Roger Miller, Spike Jones, Sheb Wooley, and Ray Stevens.Those were actually comedy songs, and followed a comedy record boom in the 60's with Bob Newheart, Bill Cosby, and George Carlin. It was huge and those guys had number one record too. "The Button Down Mind of Bob Newheart" was one of the biggest selling albums of around 1962. Cuts from those records were played on radio just like songs.

It all came to a crashing halt on November 22, 1963. The most popular record in the country was called "The First Family" by Vaughn Meader. It was a spoof album on the Kennedy family. When those three shots rang out in Dallas, all the comedy pretty much went out of the country.

It never really recovered. And the comedy song as a radio staple died also except for people like Ray Stevens, who did it into the 80's.

The songs with a humorous bent yet still are written as "serious" songs do pop up from time to time, but most artists take themselves so seriously, it is hard to get people to spend money on them. The exceptions are like my friend's song, "I Pray for you" Which had very little money spent on it but was a YOu Tube Sensation. The entire song cost about $5000 to record and produce the video. So it does still happen. But they are anomolies, and I wouldn't look for a lot of those songs to be out there.

My career is founded on a similar song. "The Grand Opening" which is a fairly comedic song about a guy being on stage and his zipper being open. He keeps getting notes up trying to tell him "His barn door is standing open, his "Zipper is undone", which he thinks are song requests. The final note comes up "PS: I LOVE YOU." Which he thinks is a Beatles song. It is very funny and actually happened to me. The guy who wrote the song, and later included me in on the writing because I changed two words,
became my mentor and helped me get started in my Nashville career.

That humerous song opened to the door for all my other stuff and led to us getting our song "That's Where It Hurts" in a Willie Nelson/Kris Kristofferson television movie called "Another Pair Of Aces" which launched the career of eventual Grammy winner Shelby Lynne.

Humor is a great thing to use in music. It opens doors and can get people to know you faster than just about every thing. But it can be a down side as well. Careers have been crushed by an artist doing a silly song and get knowned for that. My friend CLetus T. Judd could not get arrested as a serious singer. So he does Ray Steven's songs and parodys of hit country songs. Same with Weird Al Yankovick.

In the case of a song called "Honky Tonk Bedonky Donk" one of the writers was Jamie Johnson. He wrote it a few years before his record deal. It was cut on Trace Atkins first because he had the track record of being able to do whatever he wanted to. Because that was a big hit, Jamie was able to release his own "In Color" which became a huge hit and an award winner. Timing is everything.

So, in order to get back to this original topic. Humor can play a huge part in the overall success of a songwriter. It may not be the song that makes them famous, but it might be the one that opens the door.

MAB

HiDee Mz Shirl'!

One man's "Corn" is another's "Jim Beam"...Tastes certainly Vary. as does The Processing.

I'd sug ya listen Real-Long and Real-Hard to whatever Group or Singer you LIKE hearing on the Airwaves Today...(Unless you want to write a REAL Old-Fashioned Country Song.)

For The Latter...study "I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry"..Hank Sr..& an Update: "A Country Boy Can Survive" by Hank Jr.

Good Luck with your Studies!

Best Wishes/Big Hugs,
Stan

Whoa''..Hell;o.. Stan,,:)


Thanx,,,for stopping by..and inspiring me:)..I luv the sentiments..:) I will continue my studies....:)



Stan,,and Yes..I used to listen To''Hank Williams all the time
When I was a lil girl..Advertisements''..on Tv always..had a
Nice''Spread of Hank Williams..I;m not sure was it the dad
that''sings Your Cheatin Heart will Tell on you''..:)..
I still hum that song,,lol.lol..Whoa.. Stan..The Music
Industry is constantly Changing..The rebel in me will....;o
always be on the back burner,,,As it relates to my Songwriting
I;m open to new fresh ways to Write.. I'm not trying to Buck
the system..Stan..I have a whole lot of''Respect for People
Who''Write Country Lyrics..period..''It's a natural ability
for people..It's an experience that''reflects..True life
in most instances...Stan I get that.. It appears that''
certain areas..of Country lyrics are ''Taboo''..especially
as it relates ''to ones sexuality..''There are a lot of
Implied REferences..inferred ''etc..''which has A Tendency
to clash with my mindset''Because I;m very comfortable
with my sexuality..:)..sooooo Writing Country Lyrics..
kinda ;0;gives me..that challenge I need ..I thrive
on challenge..:)..It def. keeps my neurons fired up..
..''Dude I ;m not trying to ''break into Nashville
with the next big hit..Most of my Country Lyrics are
inspired by ''Childhood memories that are very sacred
to me..My Dad Married''a Very Rural Country gal..
From North Carolina..My roots will always be country:)
My Dad Is A City Boy..soooooo..I have the experiences
of both worlds..:)..,,;o



Stan,,I love your imput,,I can;t imagine..'
you not being around..even When We agree
to disagree ''about certain subject matters,:)
You always,,,remained''a perfect Gentleman
Thanx,,Stan from the bottom of my heart..:)
it;s been a joy talkin to your..Stan..
take care..:)

See you in a few;o

**** R,I. P. To Jimmy Bean..Whoa..
he lived an interesting life..:)

*********

...hmmmmmm.. I just wanna ''say That The Piece''Having MY Baby..''was a very touching loving Piece''..Written By Paul Anka..;o


It kinda..Revolutionized''A New Beginning..for woman during
the early seventies..''It Was like a special tribute to
woman ''who were giving birth,,'':)..and finally society
seem more comfortable with ''The idea of A man being present
during the ''birth of a child..''The Natural Childbirth Syndrome
was kickin in real tough..:),,and Men were basically participating in''that Process..Etc.:)


so..Paul Anka..Thanx,:)
I love the sentiments..
Of ''Having My baby...;o

Hi Pol

Most of those songs aren't Country songs

Just some old style pop songs. There were loads of those kinds of songs in the 70's but right along with them were the best popular songs ever as well.
---------

Are certain Country songs "corny"? you best believe it, and in many cases it has nothing to do with trying to be funny.

First I say this from the this perspective, I love many many Country songs and there are so many more things I like,admire and respect than not about the music and the people who make it.

When I say this, it's not just "some rock guy" I'm much more than that, and can never be pinned down musically.

And it's NOT just the "way of life" in one area to another or geographics..
It's about "Forcing Songs" which is another thing I'll explain,

To many people on the East Coast and some other cities it is very corny/hokey is another word. To give you a clearer way to see it, think of the opposite of corny or hokey as being "Cool"

Around lots of the rest of the country, to kids in many places "Rock" has been considered cool since it began!
Now that has been replaced by hip hop & rap, That is what the cool kids or the kids who think they are cool listen to.
They listen to it, dress it, talk it. and act it!!

Why do you think part of the reason Modern Country is SO Rock
orientated and Pop orientated, Rock & Various Pop is about "Style" And Country's absolute biggest selling star Taylor Swift is POP... IF you listen Taylor you'd pick this up right away.
Use your ears and you will Avril Lavine inside music more than you;'ll here Loretta Lynn, trust me!

Lady Antebellum is POP POP POP POP 80's straight pop to boot.
And the Rock approach is in many cases much like "Bon Jovi"
Hootie had #1 hit in Country Music what does that tell you?

It has changed in the mainstream alot. You can slip pedal steels' into the background along with, some fiddle and what have you but "I Need You Now" is "Eye In The Sky" by Alan Parsons 80's and it's lyric is just as regular Pop Rock as "I need You Now" by the Canadian rock band "Firehouse"

What I love about Country Music is -

1- The honesty and purity of it.
2- The consistency of it over all these years, to always be a great source of music and a force in the industry.
3- Actually #1 It uses SONGWRITERS!! and so many GREAT musicians.
4- The inner workings, the community that surrounds it.

That said back to the "corny" aspect.

Corny to me and many others is - Trying too hard to sell you on something. This can get lame at times as well.

1- Mentioning EVERY EXACT OBVIOUS THING, In one verse a song will mention
"Facebook, My Space, Twitter, Ebay etc... Like your just looking down at whatever's in front of you and popular at that minute and cramming it into your song. That is the #1 no no for me. It makes me quiver and actually feel embarrassed for the singer.

2- Going Lame or too soft. Beautiful is one thing, "I'll Still Be Loving You" by Restless Heart is one of all time favorites, "Witcita Lineman" may many others old and new.
But "Old Blue Chair"? I was thinking about throwing and old sofa out and saw this video with Kenny Chesnney and thought.
Instead I would take my chair down to beach and sing to it
Maybe out to dinner to..
It's all about his Dad and they used the chair as the example, I SO appreciate the work in thinking this up and getting it done. But during the song I turned to my wife and said "Well"?
She said 'That is the corniest thing i ever saw or heard" It's almost like a skit on SNL it would be funny...

Without Mike D getting to upset with me lol The Brad Paisley song
"Ticks" is cringingly corny I couldn't believe it when I heard it and it was really literally about the lime diseased ridden bug... And it's supposed to be sexy. Again my wife's expression did all the talking, she was shocked..
Not COOL... Not what James Dean would do to get a girls shirt off or Snoop Dog! So ya see how that works. Opposite of corny? Cool.

NOW! let me explain why those and countless other songs take this approach. They have too,,, again can you imagine sitting down as a songwriter having to come up with "Literal Songs" which also means (the only kind that can be hits) every single day? Next to you is thousands of other writers trying to think of new ways to talk about the same things. And the race is on...
"Titles" alone could kill you over there.

I envy and don't envy anyone who has to look out the window everyday spot something, then try to make a re-latable, or relationship song out of it. This is HARD, That is exactly what a song like "Big Green Tractor" does.
All this thrown in with the constant attempts of being clever gives off the hokey vibe.. "we need new ideas EVERY single day and you got to beat the guys next door as well, this is how you "force songs" it makes total sense. I couldn't do it!

Constant name dropping, 5 times in one song, Not just a soda but a coke a cola, so all the brand names, Ford, Budweiser, etc..
etc.. So many products and famous names.

Yes there are the in-between FUN Toby Keith songs and I like those alot, it's the ones that are trying to be serious and saying things were you think "they can't be serious" that's the difference and it's easy as pie to spot.

YET! it is FUN to do as a writer and very rewarding.
It makes you smile, and forces you to think HARD.. Like a TV show writer. Also it makes your co-writers go "yeah yeah that's GREAT how perfect, great fit.

Regardless of what my "typing" sounds like, I have much respect and sympathy for any writer, writing and pitching in Country Music!!

There you go Shirley that's how it is from New York..

I don't want to argue with the New York view on Country, that's fair enough, but I'd like to add that there are such a thing as a 'parody'.

Many who comes from outside country, who's interested in writing country songs, starts out with writing parodies, because they don't really get the essentials of country (myself included). Forcing things, trying to be too clever, is exactly the recepy for churning out parody type of songs.

But that's NOT good songwriting, that's examples of bad.. I think that's why MAB repeatedly advocates that country songs needs to be reality based as well as conversational.

Like Mike, I think the percieved 'cornyness' comes from forced lyrics, maybe due to the appointment system of (co)writing, maybe due to the competitive songwriting culture where you HAVE to find what MAB calls 'elbow moments' - which is new catchy ways of saying things. But most of all, from lack of craft!

I think in country there's often a fine line between a really good 'elbow moment' and a corny phrase.

Country records are full of great songs that aren't forced, yet have great 'elbow moments' too. Those are the great ones to use as significant examples on what country 'really' is, or should be like IMO.

Songs like (sorry didn't have time to look up the writers):

You're gonna miss this - Trace Adkins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igm2iGvo-us

When I get where I'm going - Brad Paisley
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xtn-x_5d61w

All the things we've never done - Martina McBride
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yodgM2N4VN8

The grass is blue - Dolly Parton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JStm6QyLcw

Just another day in paradise - Phil Vassar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdlsefxltuI

.. all has great 'elbow moments' without getting 'corny'.

I think all genres has songs that makes one cringe, a lot of EMO rock songs does that to me

Here's corny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0mGFjAySTw&feature=related

But I doubt there are many here that can come close to their musicianship.

Homer and Jethro had a Kellog's commercial where they would play and tell silly jokes then sing, "Oooh, that's corny...corny as Kellog's Cornflakes."

Corny is also my buddy Gerald Smith. Gerry was the Georgia Quacker on Hee Haw...he made that duck sound. Gerry's also had cuts by George Strait, Lorrie Morgan, and George Jones to name a few. Here's a link to his cdbaby album, "You Play Like Chet." http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/geraldsmith

Well Mike,
I was just going to mention Homer and Jethro but you beat me to it. However you can also Google Lonzo and Oscar for more comedy/Corny tunes.

Ray, Lonzo and Oscar were brilliant. And again, excellent musicianship. Here's the original Lonzo and Oscar doing "There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0I1gVqnGqM

Here they are direct from the bar .....HOMER AND JETHRO!!

"Don't let the stars get in your eyes when you've got water on the brain!!!"

"Her hair was fair, she laid it on a chair because I seen it laying there,I cocked an eye at her, she cocked an eye at me, and we just sat there cockeyed as could be..."

Smoke Coca Cola Cigarette, drink Wrigley's Spearment beer
Kenel Ration dog food makes your wife's complexion clear
Chew chocolate covered mothballs they always satisfy
Brush your teeth with lifeboy soap and watch them float away.

"Oh the yellow rose of Texas,the Sweetest song this earth.
Her right eye looks a Dallas, her left one at Fort Worth."



Yeah, my Dad had all those records too. I learned about everyone of them. Great memories Mike.

MAB

Marc, I got to play with Homer a few times, produced a session with him playing mandolin on "Lady Be Good" and "Corrina Corrina." He was one of the all-time great mandolin players, could play swing jazz with the best of them. One gig I got to be "Homer" playing rhythm guitar while Mr. Jethro insulted me, it was an amazing honor. Have you ever heard the album that Chet Atkins did with Homer and Jethro? Incredible playing. Yeah, those corny Nashville hicks LOL. Jethro Burns was a virtuoso.

I do remember that album. The one I am quoting from was "Homer and Jethro at the Country club."

M

Hi Sausagelink ... the second song is blocked in England due to copywrite ...WOW

Hi Kevin, i don't know if it is the same songs that you mention but Billy don't be a hero was a massive hit in the 1970's in England by Paper Lace and it was "supposedly" about the 'war' in Northern Ireland and it was very prevelant in it's emotions, a lot of people on both sides got killed and even though it was a little corny people cried when they heard it.
Having my baby was written and performed by Neil Sedaka (spelt wrong) and I think it is a beautiful love song not corny at all.

For some reason, there are two songs that everyone seems to get confused as to who performed them. They were both out at the same time back in the 70's. "Billy, Don't Be a Hero" was performed by Bo Donaldson and the Heywoods, and "The Night Chicago Died" was performed by Paper Lace.

Also, "Having My Baby" was written and performed by Paul Anka.

Heya Puddleglum,

In that post from above, I was responding to Polly who had mentioned those songs. I wasn't offering the opinion that they are corny... even though they are.

Also, I'm pretty sure that "Billy" wasn't about the Troubles, but I'm sure it resonated with those who were touched by that tragic conflict.

Oops... Puddleglum was correct and I offer my apologies. Paper Lace did do a version of Billy Don't be a Hero that went to #1 in the UK. Their version of it only went to #96 in the United States, while Bo Donaldson and the Heywoods took it to #1.

I'd say there are the occasional corny songs, sure. Luke Bryan's "Rain is a Good Thing" comes to mind! And it's been quite successful. More than that though, it seems modern country music is going two very separate ways - the stuff you hear on the radio has a hefty mix of pop and rock thrown in, and many of those songs, though certainly not all, seem to resonate less and less with people living a true country lifestyle. Some of the most successful "country" artists today are country by Nashville standards, but not by Westerners'. Then you have the folk, bluegrass and Americana sections, which get much less airplay but are often regarded by Westerners as truer to "country's" roots.

So write corny if you want. It can work out well. Just recognize that "country" has changed dramatically in the past 10-15 years.