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Clive Davis urges singers to stop writing songs

By Michelle Nichols Thu Mar 6, 11:49 PM ET

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Music mogul Clive Davis, who helped launch stars like Whitney Houston and Alicia Keys, said singers should focus on what they do best and not feel pressured to write their own songs.

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Davis, chairman and chief executive officer of the BMG Label Group, said he has seen many entertainers lose their careers by not concentrating on finding hit songs -- no matter who they are written by.

"The odds are always against you," Davis, 75, told the Billboard Music and Money Symposium on Thursday. "You have got to go over the best material, and that should win out, not withstanding any track record. I don't care how many No. 1's you have written in the past, have you written a new No. 1?"

When Houston came to him after her second or third album and asked if she should start writing songs, he said: "Billie Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald, Barbra Streisand, Frank Sinatra didn't write, and they are among Time magazine's greatest artists of the century."

He said 80 to 90 percent of the artists with whom he has worked over more than four decades wrote their own material. But in recent years, more entertainers who do not write have gained stardom due to the hit TV talent show "American Idol," where singing talent is discovered.

In fact, Davis had a public spat last year with inaugural "Idol" winner Kelly Clarkson over creative differences on her third album "My December," on which she co-wrote all the songs.

"She was not signed as a singer/songwriter," said Davis, adding that her manager believed there would be at least six hits on the album while market research had shown none.

"This issue only comes up when you're dealing with entertainers who might or might not have the ability to write pop songs," he said. Clarkson's second album sold 11 million copies worldwide, so Davis said there was a lot at stake.

"My December" has sold only 754,000 units since its June 2007 release, according to music tracker Nielsen SoundScan.

The pair resolved their dispute shortly after the album's release and are now working on a new record.

Reuters

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080307/music_nm/davis_dc

Not that I hold such aspirations.
But it kind of makes me think of what I have read of the post Beatles period when the musicians did'nt write.
I know this is just about vocalists, but it hit me that way.

Wow! Ande, that was a bombshell. One side of me is doing cartwheels but the older and wiser guy inside is saying, "Can he really mean that?" A good song is a good song... no matter who writes it.

As a songwriter, it is encouraging to think that we might actually have more opportunities because of this highly respected man. Mind you, I'm not expecting miracles and I would still be loathe to advise a vocalist who wrote a killer of a song to "cool it."

Thanks for sharing, Ande. Most interesting.

Dave

Dave, I agree, a good song is a good song, but many artists who decide to cowrite songs are doing it for business reasons, more slices of the pie. Also, notice her manager was encouraging it. Bad team advice. I wish artists would maintain a trusted team of folks who would not profit from decisions.

This practice has greatly hurt many Nashville artists. It's bad enough that people want a writer's publishing, but now they want to cut into the writer's share of the pie.

Good for Clive Davis. Thanks, Ande.

Interesting article.

Here's hoping...

Seems to me that the best songs are songs that the common person can relate to. Once you lose touch with that reality, the credibility of the lyrics fades. Unfortunately, too often the heroes lead sheltered lives - once famous, they are "protected" from those on the other side of their walls.

That's my take anyway. Clive has a point.

I can see Clive's side from a business stand point.
Just like you wouldn't want the electrician building your house to try his hand at plumbing when there are good plumbers already working for you.

Well said, Doug.

At the end of the day it all boils down to the quality of the song in question. If certain established stars want to write and sing their own songs good on them provided they have the ability to write of course. I just hope that their managers have a good supply of crayons.

Many singers have a great gift of singing but little or no gift of writing, just as many gifted writers have little or no gift of singing. Let one hand wash the other and they can both come out clean. The writer needs good singers to display their works but the singers need good works to display.

well said everett.

rock on,
r.

I see both sides on this one...
The record company hires the singer to just sing, and leaves the song writing to pros.
The singer wants to be more "artistic" and show they be more then just an image, a stage presence, and a voice.

But here is my question... How did Kelly even get to the point where she was able to release her own written stuff? Why did the record label even let it go that far? Shouldn't they have hashed all of this out from the very start, and have been more organized before contracts were signed and agreements made? Sounds like a major lack of communication and understanding to me. I would have thought that big record labels like these, that invest so much time and money in these projects would have already informed the singers of what they will and will not be doing...so that everyone is clear and on the same page. Guess not

While not publicized very often it is generally known that most Major Artists over the last half century wrote very few of their hits.

Indigo, once an artist becomes a star...things shift around. The balance of power also shifts in the artist's favor, since the buying customer is more interested in the artist than in the label. There is a definite reason to keep the artist happy...but how far do you bend? And as an artist...who is keeping you rational in the face of this new power and fame?

Hi Ande -
Interesting ... Thanks for sharing .. a ray of sunshine. small, but there
Joanne

good one Ande thanks

Great article Ande

Ah CD that's my boy!

It's great that CD (Clive Davis) lol... realizes this and that makes sense for him,as he is one of the last of the "REAL RECORD PEOPLE" He's old school and knows the day's of when the industry was great and he also knows when it was very good and blooming at it's financial peak.

Aside from 28 years of rejection from this man I have fond memories and GREAT respect for him.
The man signed Janis Jopin. And my buddy Mike A brought Bruce into his office with an acoustic guitar when he was at Columbia Records.

And most of all my first Major Label Showcase for Arista with my band was for guess who? I'll never forget when Mr. Neil came back with our tape from his office and said
we needed more work basically but I heard a girl today that was fantastic her name is Whitney Houston. We were like well like (depressed) lol.. but you can beat that stuff when your young

Okay anyway I feel like an old beaten up fighter telling stories.

Back to the Kids - Okay Here's how it happens: here's what's going on in the young singers mind.

Like Big Jims says and he is right, we or should I say mainly the kids start to settle for very average type of material... Even the young Karokee singer soon to maybe be future AI conetstant experiences this.

They sing songs written by Justin Timberlake and some others at the Karokee over & over and start to realize, HEY I can do this!!!!
And many of them actually can. The bar is dropped so the flood gates open, good for us & bad for us. We could compete with Billy Joel and our songs will never see the light of day Or just the oustanding amount of people who can get over in today's industry. Still hard either way.

Clive wasn't refering to people like Norah Jones or Vanessa Carlton or Alicia Keys
He obviously meant the singer only people.

He's going back in his mind to the history of his once HUGELY successful industry.
Think about all those singers there used to be in the mainstrean that didn't write.
Bands are one thing but outside of Country music & AI products hardly anyone stands on a stage alone and just sings. The crooners are all gone from the main stream. Anyt there where near the solo rock stars like there used to be.

If anyone has ever worked with "The Singer" as much as I have they would know the difficulty they can cause. I'm talking about the ones who don't play an instrument, don't write songs etc...

Have you ever been in a band with one? lol.... Now this is not to acuse everyone of being this way and many are real pro's...but from what I have learned time & time again, There ego is the biggest of the bunch, they complain the most, they NEVER had to lug equipment like drums or amps and they usually NEVER practiced for countless hours a day learning an instrument. Again Some are very musical and very reasonable as well.

All this lends to "the attitude" They crave for attention and hate feeling less superior.
And worst of all they think singing the song is writing it..... especially if there hanging around a drafting or writing session.

I don't discourage sole singers to want to and to write songs. But just like us songwriters or musicians who are terrified to open there mouths and sing in front of people or on our demos untill we get better at it, they could use a little of that reality. So at first it's all about that then if they succeed in the business it's about more of that and the money percentage!

Try to be as good a writer as you are a singer, ah but that takes a ton of work and practiice and disipline.
Something many of the ones with the God Installed Gifted ability of a voice lack.

This does not appy to all, just 8 out of every 10 I have encountered!

Well, I like the idea that writing ought to be left to writers. I always wanted to write for other people--hey, Bob Dylan did, and Steve Goodman, and Joni Mitchell, and even Mick Jagger. And country music used to be a field where the people who wrote the songs were not usually the people who recorded them--relatively rare in other genres, I think, since the '60s.

I think the current fixation with having artists write their own material is a product of the depradations of the Music Industry. If I understand the situation right, the money the artist gets out of a song from the record company is an *advance against earnings*, and the company is capable of juggling the books so there neverare enough real "earnings," and the artist is in permanent thrall to the company. (Hey, I know enough bookkeeping to be able to do that. And if I can do it, anybody can do it.)

The *writer*, on the other hand, has an income stream that may be small, but it's one the company can't touch, because it's guaranteed by Federal law. I think that's one reason a lot of artists get fixated on having a co-writing "piece"--it's money that's *theirs*.

Might be where the "artist must write" mindset comes from, too. If the artist writes the whole thing, the writer-artist gets *all* of the copyright royalty. Bigger piece--and less complaining about the thralldom, possibly. I think if I were the record company, I'd encourage that. With a highly developed sense of self-importance, I would claim that my massive promotional machine could sell *anything*. So what if the material isn't any good? When was the last time the industry worried about *that*?

Thanks for the opportunity to vent. I'll go back to writing songs now.

Joe

We need some 'Clive Davis' attitudes Down Under!

Here in Australia, record companies almost exclusively sign artists who write their own material. Its been a problem for non-performing writers like me for years, but thanks to Australian Idol, and the influx of non-writing artists onto the Aussie music scene, this attitude now seems to be changing, and finally, non-performing writers are starting to get a look-in.

It will take time and a lot of work, for those of us within the Australian Music Industry trying to make these changes, to maintain the momentum and place our wonderful Australian songwriters on the pedestal they deserve and have never really been given. Aussie songwriters are constantly relocating to the UK and the USA just so they can have a go at making a career for themselves, but this too will change over the next few years.

In Australia, at least, the 'Idol' phenomenon is helping to change the face of our industry, and our non-performing writers will be the ultimate winners. In themeantime, hopefully a few of our music industry executives will read the Clive Davis article!

I think a better way to say it would be that people should focus on what they do well and let those things they don't do well be done by experts or at least someone with more talent at it than themselves. This advice is usually good for anyone in any business. BUT.. I think artists SHOULD learn to write songs so they have an understanding of how they work, why they work and how they can best interpret them if they don't record their own. It's the same reason I always suggest songwriters and artists learn to do a lot of their own career management so that once they are successful enough to justify hiring someone they will understand what will make someone worth hiring and what will not be worth it. Too many artists want a manager when they don't have the first clue what a manager is even supposed to do. Same with an attorney. Same with a publicist. Same with a producer. Etc. So learn how to do it all, do that work yourself and become competent enough to identify someone clearly better at it than you when the time comes. And also understand when it is you NEED someone better. A singer just getting started doesn't have the same needs as a label artist.

Brian

Interesting article coming from this man.

Writing a very good song is not easy. A miniscule percentage of songwriters can write a GREAT song. A lot of people think that pretty much any musician can write. Wrong. You have to have a natural talent and then it must be developed by writing HUNDREDS of songs. I don't think there is any other way.

In the country world, I think of Alan Jackson, whom I consider a very good songwriter. He always chooses some outside material. Why? Because those songs are better than what he brings to the session!

George Strait doesn't write a lick to my knowledge. And I guess he's #1. Screens over 1,000 songs by the world's best country songwriters. To choose 10 songs.

George Jones tried writing early on and finally gave it up, said he could not compete with the best of country songwriters.

Suurrreee- this guys idea might sound all well and great, but seriously- how else is a singer supposed to get discovered? They need to have a GOOD song and it doesn't happen very often that a songwriter will write a song to be performed by a "wanna be" singer. I mean,sure it happens,but you don't come across it much. It seems to me for a singer to get discoveredthey have to have Some REALLY GREAT songs & usually that means they must write/co-write them themselves......hehehe- who wants to donate to my "great songs" fund? hehehe- I'm a singer/songwriter, but singing is my ultimate passion. I'd REALLY love it if someone would just give me a hit song and lets go to the TOP! hehehe:)Buttt.....like i said, that's really not likely to happen.

Thanks for sharing the article though.

And for the rest of us singer/wanna be songwriters out there, letsjust keep writing!:)

Hi

You couldn't be any further off base! You show me a quality singer with real marketable potential. And I will show you 1,000 songwriters that will be MORE than willing...

The better singer you are, and the more personable and proffesional appeal you have will get you as many great songs as you want.

I encourage anyone who is a professional or wants to be a professional to learn
as much as you can about all aspects of music, without losing too much focus
on doing what pays your bills.

clive davis on songwriting
http://www.videowired.com/watch/?id=3068087055

I wish that something, anything, of mine had sold only 754,000 units.

Whilst Davis has a point in that some performers are clearly not cut out to be writers too, and vice versa, he also has something of a self-interest in the creative 'separation of powers'.

He's a wheeler-dealer whose life - and income - has revolved around putting people together and hoping to find a winning combination of talents.

I don't understand it exactly but I think the fact she sold 11 million of her second album had something to do with it. Like you though, I think they could have stopped her from actually releasing it. Maybe he wanted to teach 'em a lesson about listening too. Seems like an expensive way to teach a lesson though, don't it?




I don't think he actually said that. He seemed to realize the importance of a killer song. From the article: Davis, chairman and chief executive officer of the BMG Label Group, said he has seen many entertainers lose their careers by not concentrating on finding hit songs -- no matter who they are written by.




This is very true. Probably of the really huge country stars of the last 40 years, only Alan Jackson, Merle Haggard, Dolly, and Garth wrote most of their hits. A lot of people write them in the early years but usually let others write them after they become stars. Even Jackson, Haggard, Dolly, and Garth had hits with songs written by other people. Seven of Johnny Cash's 15 number 1s were written by others. And Brad Paisley, who has written plenty of his hits, arguably biggest hits - "Whiskey Lullabye" and "When I Get Where I'm Going" - were written by others.

I'm thinking if the new "artist performance royalty" is passed here in the U.S., maybe they'll stop trying to take the writer's job.

Actually, George has been credited as a writer. He and Bubba Strait were both listed as writers on "Living For The Night" WITH Dean Dillon. I think Bubba is George's son. I have a hard time believing Dean needed a lot of help to write the song but knowing his connection with George, he may have given them credit for just providing a title. I ain't saying that's what happened but I see nothing wrong with it. The problem I have is when the writer is EXPECTED to write with the artist and the artist winds up not contributing much.

I think George wrote a few other songs over the years but I think "Living For The Night" was the only single he received credit on.

After I wrote the above, I checked BMI and George has 11 songs under his name. Bubba is George Jr. and he has nine songs. All of Bubba's songs were written with his dad and most were written with Dillon.

The "artist must write" came out of the sixties when the Beatles reshuffled the definition of the writer artist. Since then, every artist that ever starts out pictures him or herself as a writer as well as an artist. It is a natural instinct.

Over the years there has been less and less of a deliniation between writers and artists, with most record companies signing more and more artist who were writers as opposed to getting songs from outside writers. It is a natural evolution.

As downloading has taken over more and more, there is no real choice BUT to make sure artists are writers on their songs. This is survival. It costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to promote artists and songs and they are "hedging their bets" all the way around.

The process over the past 10 years in Nashville has been to sign artists as writers FIRST then began an apprenticship of sorts with hit writers to learn the craft or at least provide their own experiences and desires and if they didn't provide the actual total essence of the song, the "creative componant" gives the effect of writing WITH Them, instead of throwing things "AT THEM."

As mentioned, there are artists such as Straight and Tim McGraw, who don't write all of their material, but are writers also. You might be surprised how many get cuts on other artists. In the case of Straight, he does go by a different name "Bubba" Straight. That happens often and also goes into writers and artists having ASCAP and BMI companies.

But these artists for the most part started over 5-10 years ago. Downloading has really kicked in for the past 8 years and when that has devistated the money in the industry, you tighten the access from the outside to artists. Again, survival.

So Clive Davis might be right in theory, but this ain't 1965, 1975, or even 2005. This is a different world.

The propensity of labels now to insist on the "360 degree" deal, where they have a cut on half an artist's income, has led to this fact.

And far from doing what Sausage Link suggested, if the artist's performance royalty is passed, you will see "LESS opportunities for outside songs, not more." Artists will be writing on EVERYTHING.

What I have seen is better and better writers becoming artists. I was on a tour bus a couple of months ago with Eddie Montgomery of Montgomery Gentry, who played me current songs being pitched to him for the next CD. Out of about 20 songs he played, almost all were AMAZING. Substance, heart, compassion, great stories, and UNBELIEVABLE demos. And this was stuff that he had written himself and that from friends, including hit writers. It was very interesting.

The fact of the matter, what you are going to be seeing is more songs by the artists, like it or not. And you are going to have less songs on CD's. Blake Shelton last month came out with his "Six Pack" which are six songs instead of twelve. This will be followed by another six pack toward the end of the year. Montgomery Gentry are going to an Eight pack. Other artists have plans to do the same thing. So that is what is coming. Less songs overall. If you thought it was tough now, get ready for even tougher.

It is the reason my suggestions to you all is to find ARTISTS before they are signed. Get in on the ground floors. The old days of pitching songs to established artists are all but done.

Find the next Taylor Swift and Justin Bieber and attach yourself to their journey before someone else does.

MAB

That's the history but... Because it's a different world doesn't mean it' a better world.

The Beatles were a band! Not a "Singer" So the idea of EVERYBODY having to write there owns songs since is pretty silly. I mean most of those who didn't or couldn't only wanted the "credibility" of writing themselves.

Clive was talking about singers, which means mostly singers who aren't in a band, singers from American Idol who were payed and made famous because they are singers, not songwriters, not musicians.

In Rock n Roll bands since the 50's they always worked with there own material pretty much and the 60's and 70's totally accept the Three Dog Night and they were more of a pop group anyhow. And THEY sold more records than anybody between 69-74 with ALL outside writers. The Monkees were the other who used outside writers, even though Mike Nesmisth could write
"Different Drum"

Lets see who were the biggest SELLING SINGERS artists of the last century?

Al Jolson - Didn't write
Bing Cosby - Didn't write
Frank Sinatra - Didn't write
Ray Charles - Didn't write
Elvis Presely - Didn't write
Barbara Streisand - Didn't write
Madonna - Didn't write (until way later but biggest songs NO)
Whitney Houston - Didn't write
Mariah Carey - Didn't write (most successful female artist ever)
George Strait ? Don't know did he write all those number ones or did he just sign his name on some?

So in theory Clive is saying "From my 50 years experience in this business when we signed singers as "singers" we expect them to sing the songs provided by the best songwriters at out disposal.

The only BIG difference today is, the audiences don't know the differences and it doesn't care or matter at all. Justin Timberlake writes some really really lame songs, but nobody cares, Him,his label, his management, his fans.

If Clive saw that Kelly Clarkson was like Carol King he would let her do anything she wanted. He KNOWS the difference, he cares actually. But he's no fool, he goes along with all this stuff today because it's "the business" now. He is too old and set/rich to have any umph to try and change it.
Have you noticed that in that last 15 years he has attached himself to projects with - Santana, Rod Stewart, now Harry Connick Jr.

Greed makes many artists want EVERY point on the CD as well as ego. The smart ones take the songs - You live as long as your songs live so LIVE FOREVER..

Mike,

Survival has nothing to do with greed. It has to do with survival. You keep talking about "what if's" and "if only's."
It would be great if only great songs were out there. If artists were just artists. If only writer's could write for the artists. That is gone. You can complain all you want but it really doesn't change anything.

On these pages people always vent about what things should be and what they want them to be. That doesn't change anything. What works is what I am always talking about. Writing with artists before they are signed. That is not going away ever.

We are not going back to big black and white televisions. We are not going back to an older era. They are not going to sign artists who don't write. Ever again. You can quote every artist from the 20's on and that means nothing to a business that changes radically every 18 months. Everybody can complain all they want to but it doesn't change what has been irrevocably done. It is not going back to people being paid fairly for music. Ever. Too much supply, finite demand.

This is life, We have to deal with it. The only thing any of us can do is do our own part to try and make it better. A lot of times that doesn't work. And on pages like these we can complain all we want to. But that doesn't change anything.

I'm sorry. That is reality.

MAB

Marc,

I think you're wrong on these points at least for Strait and McGraw. Bubba is not THE George Strait, he is the son of THE George Strait. Bubba is a BMI writer and THE George is an ASCAP writer.

ASCAP George has 23 songs listed in their database. Among them are AWAY IN A MANGER, DECK THE HALLS, DOWN IN MEXICO, HARK THE HERALD ANGELS SING, JINGLE BELLS, JOY TO THE WORLD, O CHRISTMAS TREE, OH COME ALL YE FAITHFUL, RED RIVER VALLEY, SILENT NIGHT, UP ON THE HOUSETOP, WE THREE KINGS, WE WISH YOU A MERRY CHRISTMAS.

I didn't know King George wrote all those classics. You don't need to tell me why it's like that, I know why.

Artists who started out as writers have always been around but most only have a few hits by others then start keeping them for themselves. Luke Bryan, Jamey Johnson, Phil Vassar, Paul Overstreet, Eddie Rabbitt, Willie Nelson, Tom T. Hall, Bill Anderson are just a few who come to mind. The last three may not fit in that group because especially in Anderson's case they wrote as many hits for others as they had on their own.

I don't think Strait or McGraw ever had a song recorded by an outside act and I would say it's not impossible but unlikely. That's true with Carrie Underwood too.

Post deleted by Sausagelink

Good one Clive!

John

Sausage,

I think you are talking about two different writers. But I don't know him personally so I will defer to you on that one. If you read what I said people often use different names for BMI and ASCAP publishing companies. I do know Tim, and he was a writer when he first moved to town, at least on the writer's rounds he did with me. Not a very good one but was a writer before he was signed as an artist. Most people are.

Again, my concern is not particuarly with people coming into town 10-15-20 years ago. That is already done. I am concerned with people coming to town now, what the business is now, what it will be over the next few years and the relationships that are built. That is the reality of now.

MAB

Clive Davis is still a tomorrow guy. I like this:

"Davis, chairman and chief executive officer of the BMG Label Group, said he has seen many entertainers lose their careers by not concentrating on finding hit songs -- no matter who they are written by."

When the singer is writing the best songs, fine, so be it. With the current Nashville paradigm, the singer is often a well seasoned writer. Clive Davis is not in Nashville, he lives high above Manhattan, and from up there he can see a lot. The folks he is addressing are not Nashville stars, they're New York, London, and LA stars and if he thinks they are hurting their careers by recording their own songs, my money's on him. Still, it would surprise me if he didn't also have a decent idea as to how Nashville operates. I'm sure among his folks he will be given much consideration.

Someone wrote a song. Lots of other people liked it. The writer enjoyed the notoriety, the 15 minutes of fame, performing it as often as he had the opportunity. People began to tire of hearing the same old song. The writer wanted to enjoy it again, so he tried to write more songs. Sometimes he could. Sometimes he couldn't. Sometimes he found other songs to play, songs people had heard and wanted to hear him perform, sometimes songs no one had heard and so he introduced them to them, almost as if he had written them. He became the 'source' for the song.

In the 1950's and 1960's I heard lots of songs by lots of artists and thought of the artists as the source. I didn't consider that, without the songwriters, these folks had nothing to sing. I didn't see or hear or even read about the writers. The artists were the source and got my interest and admiration, and money.

I haven't been interested in American Idol, disgusted by the ridicule of people who should have been kindly and courteously turned down, and never held up for public spectacle and ridicule. But I also am not interested in 'cover' songs. I've already heard the original artist do those songs.

And many people foolishly arrive in music centers with their repertoire of covers only to find the original artists are there performing their works, and 10,000 other cover-song singers are there who are as good as they are, and there's little market for their product.

I'm looking for something new. A new artist introducing me to new songs. Or a known artist bringing me a new song. I don't care who wrote it. I want something new. And good. If it's a weak song it doesn't matter who wrote it or who sings it.

Frank Sinatra told Pia Zadora, and Pia told me (and 500 other people in the audience) "If you're going to sing other peoples' songs, sing the classics." If you're going to 'cover' songs, be very selective in your repertoire. If you want to do songs you write, they'd better be as good as those classics if you want to keep my interest and get my money.

Most artists can't write, consistently, the quality of songs demanded to go to market and earn well. Hell, most writers can't write, consistently, money-maker songs.

Hank Williams was one who could. Listen to the eclectic mix of songs he wrote. A substantial number of them are classics. He became the model the industry tried to manufacture, dressing dozens of other artists, and trying to find songs for them to bring to market in that genre.

The patriarch of The Carter Family (went by his initials; I forget) took songs from obscurity, reworked their structures sometimes, designed the arrangements of vocal harmony and instrumental accompaniment, and got the family to 'introduce' them to the public.

The public probably had no idea who wrote them, or even thought about that. The Carter Family became the source, and were paid by an admiring public. The industry tried to manufacture more of that success with other artists, always dependent on the songwriters to supply the product those artists could bring to market in that genre.

The story is repeated ad infinitum, real writer-artists, prolific or one-hit-wonders, whose product hits, and then the industry tries to duplicate that success by finding bodies with 'the look' and songs with 'the hook.'

Clive told Kelly Clarkson he hired her as a singer, not a songwriter. Did I see somewhere that it was the CD he was rejecting that sold 11 million units? If that was the case, then Clive was wrong about the market potential of her writing. If not, and she released a flop, then he was right and she was wrong.

I would never discourage anyone from exploring their songwriting. Some of the best songs ever written were flukes written by amateurs. Some of the best songs are inspired. They just happen, gifts from the muse, and a little credit to the intellect of the writer.

I could not care less who writes hit songs or who records them.....as long as the songs are great and the singer can sing.
Sadly nowadays we have too many mediocre songs sung by mediocre artists and the public stupidly FALL FOR HYPE and still buy them turning them into hits. I can never get my head around that.
I am also very much against this new idea of "stars" refusing to record a song unless they are allowed to be credited as the writer or cowriter. We know damn well they did not write the song or at the very least make any considerable contribution to the writing process and it is just a way of immorally overmilking the cow. That is IMO cheating big time and should be stamped out.
I think Clive was taken way out of context....he meant to say that certain pop singers cannot write hit songs and was probably aiming his comments at certain individuals. He knew that hey should record the best songs available. It is suicide for a big star to record a mediocre song written by themselves when there are so many great songs available from other sources. Sadly too many of the established stars egos are way bigger than their talent.

Marc,

I am talking about two writers...George and Bubba. As far knowing them personally, we're not exactly on first name basis LOL.

I'll defer to you on the Tim thing. I've never been any closer to Tim than five foot away from my TV. I didn't know he'd written songs.

I've lost my way in this thread. I'm not really sure what we're talking about anymore. I'm going to bed after I'm through listening to the Delmore Bros.

It was today I think I saw Mel Tillis on the Stan Hitchcock show on RFD. Mel was talking about how he wrote for Webb Pierce and Webb would uhhhhh..... sometimes think he contributed more to a song than he actually did. So this is really nothing new. It's just aggravating.

Mel said he gave Webb half a song one time for a pair of boots Webb was wearing. Later he saw that was a foolish thing to do.

Mel also talked about writing Detroit City. It started out being about another town and someone said he should write it about Detroit. So he did and needed help to finish it. He first to Webb who said he was too busy writing with Wayne Walker. So Mel went to Danny Dill and a classic was born. That unique intro came when Billy Grammer was recording the song. Grammer was tuning up and they decided to use it the intro. It was Chet that played it on the Bobby Bare version several years later.

Actually I'm not talking about survival, Nashville, Bands or even Black & White TV sets, Which by the way if they were BETTER than TV's today we should look back but they are not.

All I'm saying is I agree with Clive, and more SINGERS who just stand or stood in front of a microphone with no instrument in there hands at all, over ALL of time, did not and do not make the greatest songwriters.

That fact can not be disputed, as a staggering list would convincingly prove.

I'm not debating on how it is now. But agreeing more on how it should be, could be again, how it was and how it worked so so so so so so much better for EVERYONE. After the "internet" then what's the next thing on the list of why the industry is so on the outs?... What the economy?

Nobody wants to buy whole albums because of WHY?

While I pay very very close attention to the "business of music" and have been involved in it from a young age. I still love MUSIC first, I don't put rules, song books and strategies before that love of it. Yes I'm fully aware of them but I can't change the industry. However I already have figured out my place for now and what I need to do. Not only is it write & "produce songs like I'm the artists and place them for film and TV
But also I produce & develop young talent as well. Which I also give my songs to, and try to co-write with, Children! Very talented children.

If you want real reality? You give tours and do workshops for a living. I press Play & Record, neither of us is getting hit cuts right now.

So simple question - For both the Music World and YOURSELF would you rather Justin Timberlake keep writing the total jiving nonsense over two chords crap that he writes like "Rock Your Body" OR you get a cut on his CD? As well as 13 other writers including friends of yours,who all are better than Justin Timberlake or Kelly Clarkson?

Which do you think is the better scenario for everybody?

That answer is clear as a bell to me... So NOW if we are talking here about "make believe" or in "what if's" what's the answer?
Lets make believe things aren't the way they are. Then what?
Or do we go back to reality - Workshops & recording sessions?

Marc,

The nature of Nashville right now is sign artists who write for all the reasons that you and others have been presented above. No question about it. I won’t argue with you for a second. But I assure you when a singer comes along who truly redefines what great singing is all about they’ll get signed in a heartbeat whether they write or not…and even in Nashville.

I’m not talking about the “next Carrie Underwoods” out there…I’m talking about the next singer who can’t be compared to anyone…like those in the list of notable non-writers mentioned above . And as we all know, someone like that comes along VERY rarely. But when they do I assure you they’ll be looking for songs.

As for all the others who we’re hearing on the radio these days that are ‘good enough to get a deal’, I couldn’t agree with you more.

As for the 6-pack, I love it. Call me ADHD but I can’t take more than 6 songs in a row by any one artist anymore, I don’t care who it is. When’s the last time anyone here listened to 12 CURRENT songs by anyone? Nothing current for me, that’s for sure…trying to think if there’s anything at all I could listen to all the way through these days….maybe Exile on Main Street and Abby Road and a handful of others, but that’s about it. Nothing lately, that’s for sure.

I figured I was just getting old but I’m starting to think that music just sucks more than it used to. I can’t find ANYTHING I like on the radio anymore. What the hell is going on???? I’ve always tried to be “Mr Positive” but I gotta admit, it’s getting harder and harder and harder and harder and……

Bill

www.writethismusic.com
Check out my new CD on www.cdbaby.com/billrenfrew

Great discussions everyone!

Crisis seem to make people wish they could turn back time. Obama has had a few of those too..

What Clive is suggesting is a division of work that's in conflict with the current direction of the music business, which basically is towards self-destruction, or at least a decoupling of pro's and amateurs and even more closed environments. This closing is just more of the same stuff that has brought the bizz into a crisis, which IMO is a growth crisis where few new investments are made. Didn't USA become what it is due to allow new influences (people, culture ect)? When sales of reissued old stuff decline, there are nothing new to buy, which is also why noone does.

The world does just not work like Clive suggests anymore. Due to technology and low business, artists are singing, writing, recording and even producing if they can. It's the DIY age, where artists are on their way to become self-sufficient entrepreneurs. If others are to have a share of that, they'd better be great and more than a one trick pony.

Even people who can do it all, prefer to collaborate with others who can do it all, because that increases flexibility and productivity. So back to a rigid division of work just seems far out, even though I get the argument and maybe also wish it could be like that.

The most reasonable thing to say seem to be "God is great, beer is good.. and people are crazy!"

I also scratch my head and wonder.......There is great new music out there....There are great singers, great bands and also great songwriters who do not perform. Sad thing is nobody seems to hunt them down and put them together. There is a market otherwise the crap who appear on TV and have hit records would not make a living.
I watched do wah diddy puff daddy or whatever he calls himself last night on TV I also saw Miley Cirus aka Hannah Montana recently on the box they have made more money from music than they can count and both suck big time musically. What is the world coming to?

I dunno if we Writers should find any solace in Clive Davis' Extrapolating Kelly Clarkson's Self-Penned-CD Sales & coming to His Conclusion.

First-off, Clarkson went out to L.A. right after HS Graduation & penned with Gerry Goffin. Discouraged, she went back to Texas...2 yrs later WAS the 1-in-10,000 "Pick" for AI's Winner. "Because of You", which she co-wrote with Hodges & Moody (Of Evanescence)..& later Duetted with Reba, was certified Platinum by RIAA for selling 1,500,000 Singles in the USA, in 2008. Which, FOR SURE, got her some Artistic Freedom to DO a Self-Penned CD. (It's sold over 7 Mil singles "Worldwide".)

Next comes The Politics: Clive didn't "Hear" any SINGLE Hits ON The Self-Penned CD...yada-yada..AND Clarkson hadda Cancel Her
tour, JUST as it was Being Released.

Which, Surprise-Surprise..backs up Clive's Claim that "it didn't sell"....

AMAZING how Label Owners can make Self-Fulfilling Prophesies, ain't it? ;-)>

I've just spent 20 minutes TRYING to see if she penned "Walk Away"....so far, she has..(WHY don't they make these Lyrics-Available Sites LIST the Writers & Copyright Dates...by LAW?)..which, if she has, certainly SAYS "She Can Write 'Em".

So does her track record..considering the facts.

IF I were a Label, I'd sure be looking for Acts that CAN pen a hit as WELL as Perform It. (& like Clive, I'd sure WANT 'em to be "Open-minded"...there ARE Hit Songs Penned just BEGGIN' for some Artist to cut 'em..that WILL return all the Money-Invested..& make His Label a Winner.)

How much ya wanna bet Clarkson OWES her label Bigtime after that Last "Flop". Of Course she'll do it "Clive's Way" NEXT CD.

Back to being the Resident Skeptic,
Best Wishes/Big Hugs,
Stan

PS: When Clive went to the LA Songwriter's Showcase to get songs for Whitney's First CD, she WAS an "Unknown" and almost NOBODY pitched to her. (Sure PAYS to get to know Upcoming Unknown Star-Power EARLY in the game.)

You know, when we always get into threads like this, I am always drawn to everyone talking about what they consider hit songs and what artists and writers should do, record labels, etc. I would pose this question? Do you always know what your song is going to be? What you write yourself?

I have to because I am in the public almost all the time. If I don't write songs that connect with the public, it doesn't bring me business both from writers, artists, and the industry. Mike, you talk about you and I not writing hit songs. Maybe not. But that doesn't mean we don't have songs in our catalogues that could be hits. I know I do.

I have songs that people who have not seen me in ten years can quote the lyrics to.I have songs that industry people, the insiders so many of us quote here, hit writers, producers, etc. that tell me how much they would love to get them cut and how much they play them for others. I have songs that have been so close so many times they get trumped by another song who someone wrote with an artist or the label insisted mine be dropped.

I have had three songs that were the "Next single" but the first two tanked so they didn't get a third one. One that was cut after thirteen years and then the record company president died.
It is not always the song. It is about 15% the song. It is 85% the other things, networking, being heard by the right person at the right time, being in the right place.

Jim is right about there being some amazing songs and artists out there. There are. We hear them all the time. And I sit on stages with dozens of hit writers, some hall of famers, that play some of their most amazing songs that didn't get cut yet some piece of fluff that they wrote in 15 minutes went to number one for 6 weeks and enabled them to buy a house, a car and set up a 401 K.

I don't know any of the answers to what you guys talk about. I don't understand this silly assed business any more than you guys did. I am sitting in a bedroom in Gulf Shores Alabama playing every night over the weekend looking at some of the most pristine water and beaches in the world, with bulldozers and workers everywhere waiting for the oil to come in. And if you listen to the press, there is oil in people's living rooms and hot tubs down here. There is NOTHING on the beach. It is BEAUTIFUL. I don't understand any of that either.

I can only do what I can do. I played two sets last night. One was three hours and 15 minutes, the other was two hours. And I had people all night sitting there listening to every line I wrote and every note I sang. And the songs I did were songs I have written with literally thousands of people all over the world. I am proud of every one and I don't think any of them suck. That is all I can do.

I just think we get too much into this negativity on the business, artists writers and what they do. We all think we have some credibility in what we do and I'd like to think we work pretty hard at it. I know I do.

Through all of these conversations on pitch services, the industry, downloading, record company crap, egos, movers and shakers the lack of money, etc. I wish we could always remember that. We still have the ability to write and say whatever we want. Be aware of these other things. But don't get too caught up in them other than conversations like these.

Do what you do and do it the best you can. Can't do much about anything else.

MAB

I don't think it's negative to engage yourself in the future Marc. You do that well, as well as a lot of great constructive work teaching, as well as being a music man.

Some project the future as better than what they have now, or what they percieve what has been, and some are just plain dissapointed in themselves or their surroundings - and sure, sometimes that involves criticism of what is. I consider that positive, though, as it shows a commitment to go beyond what we see and what we percieve.

I don't know the answers either, but "negative" is not caring, or have no opinion to offer, or project no hope into the future. We may only have opinions, and some less informed than others, but I don't think ranting comes from a not caring place, on the contrary. Why rant, if you didn't wish for something more or better?

The trick we may not do so well, is to channel and even transform, those emotions through music, and be able to play the three hour sets with our own music, making people care, instead of just hoping for it.

You are certainly an inspiration for a living room songwriter like me, Marc!

Writing a song, singing, and playing an instrument are three (largely) unrelated skills. By having one person do all three, or even two of the three, you are almost always going to have a lower quality product than if the song was done by collaboration. Sure, there are some really gifted folks that can do all three - or even two of the three. But I submit that this number is much smaller than the number of major artists out there.

Given that the model of recording songs written by others seems to have fallen by the wayside, this suggests to me that quality is not the chief driving force in producing a song.

Scott

Allow myself to quote myself

Aside from all this other talk,this is what it's about,straight through the heart of this post. And that is the deal and the reality of it. There is no debate.

I think Scott nailed it. Has nothing to do with reality. Reality is pretty much as Marc described it. *But* I don't think Clive is attempting to describe reality--he's advocating a course of action. And he's right: if you want the best product, you assemble the best writer, the best instrumentalist, and the best singer you can find--and usually, they will not be the same person. Requiring the same person to be writer, singer, and instrumentalist simply because you own them has nothing to do with quality. It has to do with profit margin.

Curmudgeonly, Joe