Who's Online Now
10 members (Travis david, MFB III, Gary E. Andrews, Roy Cooper, VNORTH2, Michael W. Brown, Sunset Poet, couchgrouch, 2 invisible), 350 guests, and 52 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Register Today!
Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.

By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
What's Going On
Newport Music Hall, Columbus, Ohio
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/27/22 11:07 PM
Summit Music Hall, Columbus, Ohio
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/27/22 11:01 PM
Before The Fall
by IronKnee - 09/27/22 07:35 PM
Aux Meadows
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/27/22 02:27 PM
As December Falls
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/27/22 01:59 PM
Kemba Live
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/27/22 01:40 PM
Note About Site Being Down...
by cecileemusic - 09/27/22 01:28 PM
Angel's Falling
by cecileemusic - 09/27/22 01:25 PM
Prophecy anyone?
by Sunset Poet - 09/27/22 11:54 AM
lyricwriter looking for songwriter/musician
by segarlyrics - 09/27/22 11:49 AM
No Where Else To Go
by IronKnee - 09/27/22 09:43 AM
Gallows Pole
by Sam Wilson - 09/27/22 09:10 AM
What Value in a Mortal Soul
by Sam Wilson - 09/27/22 09:05 AM
Common Questions
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/27/22 07:51 AM
Club44 Records
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/27/22 06:54 AM
The Dark Room @ The Grandel, St. Louis, Missouri
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/27/22 06:47 AM
Waterfire Arts Center, Providence, Rhode Island
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/27/22 06:27 AM
The Belle Mehus Auditorium, Bismarck, North Dakota
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/27/22 06:19 AM
Black Dog Social Club, Green Valley, California
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/27/22 06:15 AM
We never made it all the way
by Travis david - 09/27/22 05:47 AM
Maluhia Maluhia
by Travis david - 09/27/22 05:39 AM
Music Under Bombing
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/26/22 11:53 PM
Reunion Song-Pop
by E Swartz - 09/26/22 07:14 PM
Modern Lovers
by Deej56 - 09/26/22 05:03 PM
Fire and Ice
by Deej56 - 09/26/22 05:02 PM
Homestead Bow & The X Bar, Cupertino, CA
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/26/22 03:10 PM
YouTube Strategies
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/26/22 02:18 PM
Moorestown Music Collective, Moorestown, NJ
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/26/22 02:05 PM
Boot Barn Hall, Colorado Springs
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/26/22 12:43 PM
Lee's Green Frog, Sheridan, Oregon
by Gary E. Andrews - 09/26/22 12:21 PM
Top Posters
Calvin 19,853
Travis david 12,195
Kevin Emmrich 10,938
Jean Bullock 10,330
Kaley Willow 10,240
Two Singers 9,649
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 8,991
glynda 8,683
Mike Dunbar 8,574
Tricia Baker 8,318
couchgrouch 8,070
Colin Ward 7,909
Corey 7,357
Vicarn 6,811
Mark Kaufman 6,588
Wyman Lloyd 6,578
ben willis 6,113
niteshift 5,827
Lynn Orloff 5,788
Louis 5,725
Linda Sings 5,608
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Neil Cotton 4,909
Derek Hines 4,893
DonnaMarilyn 4,667
Blake Hill 4,528
Bob Cushing 4,389
Roy Cooper 4,268
Fdemetrio 4,260
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Tom Shea 4,195
Cindy Miller 4,178
TamsNumber4 4,130
nightengale 4,096
MFB III 4,042
Caroline 3,865
beechnut79 3,845
Kolstad 3,844
E Swartz 3,730
Dan Sullivan 3,710
Dottie 3,427
Sunset Poet 3,414
joewatt 3,411
Bill Cooper 3,279
John Hoffman 3,199
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
PopTodd 2,890
Harriet Ames 2,870
Nigel Quin 2,868
MidniteBob 2,761
Nelson 2,616
Tom Tracy 2,558
Polly Hager 2,526
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Eric Thome 2,448
Hummingbird 2,401
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,246
Judy Hollier 2,232
Wendy D 2,226
JAPOV 2,202
Erica Ellis 2,202
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Marty Helly 2,041
maccharles 2,014
DukeWill 1,988
floyd jane 1,985
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Iggy 1,652
Noel Downs 1,633
Rick Heenan 1,608
Cal 1,574
GocartMoz 1,559
Jack Swain 1,554
Pete Larsen 1,537
Ann Tygart 1,529
Tom Breshers 1,487
RogerS 1,473
Tom Franz 1,473
Chuck Crowe 1,441
Ralph Blight 1,440
Rick Norton 1,429
Kenneth Cade 1,429
bholt 1,411
Letha Allen 1,409
in2piano 1,404
Stan Simons 1,402
mattbanx 1,384
Deej56 1,383
Jen Shaner 1,373
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Tom W. 1,313
Jan Petter 1,301
scottandrew 1,294
Gerry 1,268
DakLander 1,265
lane1777 1,260
PeteG 1,242
Ian Ferrin 1,235
Glen King 1,214
IdeaGuy 1,209
AaronAuthier 1,177
summeoyo 1,174
Diane Ewing 1,158
IronKnee 1,155
joro 1,082
BobbyJoe 1,075
S.DEE 1,040
yann 1,037
Tony A 1,016
9ne 1,015
argo 986
peaden 984
90 dB 964
Wolvman 960
ckiphen 925
Jak Kelly 912
krtinberg 890
Drifter 886
Petra 883
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 829
ant 798
Juan 797
TKO 784
Dayson 781
frahmes 781
teletwang 762
Andy K 750
Andy Kemp 741
tbryson 737
Jackie444 731
3daveyO3 704
Dixie 701
Irwin 697
Joy Boy 695
Knute 686
Lee Arten 678
Moosesong 668
Pat Hardy 667
Katziis 652
R.T.MOORE 638
quality 637
CG King 622
douglas 621
Mel 614
R&M 612
NaomiSue 601
Shandy 589
Ria 587
TAMERA64 583
qbaum 570
nitepiano 566
pRISCILLA 556
Tink2 553
musica 539
deanbell 528
RobertK 527
BonzaiWag 523
Roderic 522
BB Wilbur 513
goodfolks 499
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
fanito 448
trush48 448
dmk 442
Rob L 439
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
VNORTH 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 399
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
VNORTH2 390
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Ezt 384
tone 380
Marla 380
Ann_F 379
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
java 374
spidey 371
Alek 370
sweetsong 370
danny 367
Jim Ryan 360
papaG 353
Z - man 350
JamesDF5 348
John K 348
Jaden 344
ddreuter 341
TheBaz 340
Steggy 339
leif 339
tonedeaf 336
rickwork 334
Eddie Ray 332
Johnboy 328
Bob Lever 328
Helicon1 327
lucian 326
Muskie 321
kc 319
Z. Mulls 318
ptondreau 313
ONOFFON 312
Chris B. 310
trush 304
ed323 297
Ellen M 294
markus-ky 292
lizzorn 291
nicnac49 290
Char 286
ktunes 285
mastrose 280
pammie 279
Top Likes Received
JAPOV 14
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,403
Top 40 Poster
OP Offline
Top 40 Poster
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,403
Ran across the following on Portland (OR) Craigslist, where there's been a running discussion among musicians about how hard it is to get paying gigs. liked the sentiments. Posting it here because Craigslist makes post disappear entirely after 30 days (and sometimes faster).

joe

No-pay gigs and exploitation by venues (Hollywood, PDX)
Reply to: comm-dbztg-1217063127@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]
Date: 2009-06-11, 3:13PM PDT


*******************
TO POST FLAGGERS: This musician's forum is for discussions related to the Portland Musical Community. This includes ads for musicians, venues AND DISCUSSING MUSICAL TOPICS. Please read the posting guidelines before you flag.
*******************

Yesterday I posted a list of venues that pay well for gigs. It's still floating around this board, so check it out.

I'm still seeing posts, however, from people complaining about being "exploited" by venues. This is bunk. I don't really care about people complaining that they aren't getting paid as much as they'd like, but I do feel an obligation to help educate and support my fellow musicians, just as I received help and support when I started playing this scene.

I now play in a gigging band that makes enough money to support ourselves (meagerly). I have never owned or worked in a club, but I do understand basic economics and the music venue business model.

I love Portland. I love the people here. I love how much support and guidence I received from other musicians when I first got to town, and I want to give something back. So in that spirit, I offer some lessons I've learned from playing this scene:

1. If you are trying to make it as a paid musician, you need to treat your music like a business.

If you play music as a hobby or purely for art, that's fine, but expect to get paid as much as a club would pay somebody to put their model train set on display. For many musicians, this is more satisfying than trying to make money. Playing for art's sake can also lead to a financially successful project, but that's not guaranteed. Just recognize why you are playing and learn to be satisfied with the non-material benefits.

If you want to make money, you need to have a product, which brings me to my next point...

2. As a band or performer, your product is fans.

It doesn't matter how good you are, or think you are, or a review said you are. It doesn't matter how much you spent on gear or how much gas cost you to drive to the venue. Venues will pay you money because you bring them fans.

I see a lot of posts about offered "free" gigs that complain about how little venues value all the time and money they have spent getting their band together. Do you value the cost of kitchen equipment when you buy a $1 cheeseburger from McDonalds? Or do you think, "wow, that's a pretty crappy cheeseburger, even for $1."

Just as you only care about the cheeseburger when you spend your buck, venues only care about your product, fans. They get the same value from an a cappella group with 50 fans as a electronic group with 50 fans, even though the electronic group has sunk way more into their gear. I know this seems unfair, but that's because...

3. Venues are businesses too.

I know everybody "knows" this, but performers seem to forget it when they are trying to get their own paying gigs. Just like your band has gas and equipment costs, the venues have their costs as well. PAs, sound guys, and door guys -- not to mention the operating costs of the non-musical portion of the venue -- all cost money. If your project is not bringing in enough fan revenue to offset those costs, then it isn't profitable to have you play, even for free.

Keep in mind that for venues that aren't dedicated to music, like coffee shops and bars, your band is going to drive away some customers. Some people won't like your genre, some people just don't want to hear live music. For the dedicated music venues, you probably won't make customers leave, but you have to work extra hard to offset the costs of the PA and sound guy.

What's that you say? You have a killer band but no fans? That's because you need to...

4. Promote, promote, promote.

Putting up flyers and handouts is OK, but I've seen almost no effect from these tactics. One of the best ways you can promote your band is by word of mouth. Tell your friends. Tell your friends to tell your friends. Tell your boss and your crazy uncle and that weird guy you met at the bar last night. Meet as many new people as you can after every show and tell them. If you meet anybody in any way related to the music industry, make them repeat your band name 5 times before they leave your sight.

You need to be approachable and likeable after a show. Being a dark and brooding guitar player may be cool when you're established, but people are much more likely to go to your shows if they like you. I used to play in a band where the guitar player acted aloof after each show. Yeah, he was a technical wizard on the guitar, but people aren't going to support somebody who acts like a dick to them.

What's that you say? You have a ton of fans but still no paying gigs? Well the best thing you can do now is to...

5. Play free shows.

"No!" I hear you say. "We're beyond that. We have fans." Yes, but you don't have paying gigs. That's because the venues that pay aren't aware of you yet. But they will be. Just like girls are more attracted to guys that already have girlfriends, venues are attracted to bands that are already playing other venues.

Everytime you play a show, put it up on Jambase. Send it to the Portland Mercury. Promoters and bookers scan these listings to see who's hot right now. If your name comes up week after week, they will notice you. It may take time: my current band played nothing but free shows for a year before we got attention from the bigger venues. But everytime you see a Craigslist post for a free gig and pass it up, you are passing up free publicity.

It's not like you aren't getting something from the free shows. You are getting better at your instrument, you are getting new fans, and you are getting exposure to the local music scene -- all these things lead to paying gigs. If you do well, the venue will contact you again. If you think you're good enough, tell them you won't play without compensation.

I'm sure that some of you feel like you already know all of this. You've got the fans, you've played the free gigs, and the only reason you're not making big money on gigs right now is because greedy club owners are exploiting bands in this town. They know you'll play for any price, and are hogging all of those fat profits themselves.

Sound familiar?

Time to put up or shut up.

If you really think you aren't getting paid because the venues are stealing the profit, then cut out the middleman. Rent out one of the many available venues/warehouses/dance studios in town, rent or buy a PA, and put on a show yourself.

Times are tough right now for everybody, especially musicians. But let's stop taking out our frustration on each other. We need to support each other -- not just the musicians, but the venues, the promoters, the managers, the fans. It's all interconnected. The more that musicians rip on venues, or fans rip on bands, the less success and fun we will all have.

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 13
Casual Observer
Offline
Casual Observer
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 13


All SO very true & well written.


...You can't always get what you want; but if you try sometimes you get what you need......Rolling Stones

Link Copied to Clipboard
Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.


Newest Members
Sixth_Sense, kieranmartin6223, idadalton, cecileemusic, uwehuber1988
21,364 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums116
Topics122,758
Posts1,149,243
Members21,364
Most Online37,523
Jan 25th, 2020
Just Plain Quotes
"If you are stuck in your musical composing, be unreasonable. Change your environment. If you are stuck in your lyrical efforts, instead of forcing the same old words out, force yourself to do unreasonable things." -Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
Karen Bentley (2022), Nathan Calvert (30), Raymond de Leur Jr (45), WriterTomYeager (70)
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5