JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum So Where Does Your Song Rank On Ourstage?

Oooh, yay! Looking forward to it.

Awesome month. I'm really happy for my friend sgx, who won... another member of the OverClocked ReMix community taking first!

It appears another JPF member has won the 5K prize again on Ourstage. Electronic Winner SGX won the overall prize. I sent him a note and asked him to join us here, so hopefully we can learn more about him. I think it's the song that edged out Andrew Aversa's song in that category, so at least Andrew got beaten by the overall winner... if you're going to lose, might as well lose to the champion.

So now a new month starts. I spent a lot of time on the Ourstage site while waiting to move forward on our awards judging. But now that we're in full gear on that, I doubt I'll have as much time to check it out. So hopefully all of you will keep me (and everyone else) up to date about who is doing well.

We had a LOT of JPF members do well last month. I expect that trend to continue.

Brian

Mark,

Yeah.. Karma can be a friend or a real bitch. Looks like the right thing happened in this case.

Brian

My song Coactive ranks 1st in April finals.


...


Woo!


Hi! Brian sent me a very nice email congratulating me and suggested that I join the forums. So I came here and remembered that I already had a login from a while ago!

Hope you enjoyed Coactive!

Good to see you on for the first time since 2006! Hopefully you'll come and hang out. Congrats again on the win!

Brian

Congrats sgx! Very cool!

Scott

Congrats to all the winners. I think the site is going to be a good one.

Congratulations. Thanks for dropping in. Continued success!

Al

Congrats hope to see you active on the boards.

To Andrew and Marks posts earlier,

Thanks for the ongoing support and yes, it was an unexpected roller coaster ride, but a very positive one at that. I had know idea that I was even ranking until I got the quarter finals email from Ourstage. The most exciting part of it for me, was to see 10,000 views/listens/votes happen to the song in one day. We ended up taking 9th in the Music Finals! Thanks JPF.

Congratulations on the big win!
What a ride it was.
Dan

DIdn't know SGX was a JPF member too! Wow...what a lot of talent here. I was judging in the quarter-finals and SGXs track was one that I didn't want to stop listening to and thought was really a stand out. I'm pleased that it won the big Grand Prize. Not only is well deserving, but it shows that the fans DO get it right. And hats off to all JPF members in the finals and otherwise. You're helping to expand the JPF mission by supporting OurStage. Also, congrats to the JPF organization for creating such a great community of talented artists.

O.K, I'm taking the plunge and joining this thing monday. Being the simpleton that I am, anyone want to walk me through the process? I want to enter the Americana and Singer/Songwriter catagories.

Put thumb on little button. Move the little arrow on the screen til it hovers over OurStage.com (upper right hand corner of this page).
Click the little button.
Follow instructions. That's how I did it.

Hi Bob

I posted a song called "Indy" which won 3rd place for New Age/World channel in April! This song was done in collaboration with Martin Stoyonov. My contribution was some arranging, production and recording the violin parts. The song was entered on April 1st, so it did pretty well for only 30 days of contest exposure!

You can see our listing here:
http://www.ourstage.com/bestof/25-world
Look under April 2008, 3rd song down. Here's the lineup:
1. Red July by: Zircon/Jillian Goldin)
2. Cibola by: Red July
3. Indy by: Martin Stoyanov & Michael Borges

Most of the songs in the top 10 were all pretty good, for example I also enjoyed: Awakening, Lord of the Dance, Viva and Pure and divine.

Currently I'm working on some new projects to post later this month. One will go in the Cover songs channel and the other probably in the New Age/World channel.

Andrew,
Good deal... please send my congrats to your SGX friend Danny Adler! I also sent him a message at OurStage and would like to see if he'll be doing his own music publishing and licensing. I'm sure he'll do fine!

Michael

To my great surprise my song "Sour in the belly" is #4 in the indie
rock Channel!We will see how it bounces around.I had another song go as high as #9 and now it is at #509 or something.I don't really get how it works.

I don't ask fans to vote for me.If they ask,I tell them to vote for the best song.

Good Luck to everyone in May!

Dave,

Early in the month especially stuff will bounce all over the place. And even late, you'll see big swings. As more and more voters and artists get on board, I think you'll see slightly more gradual changes up and down. When there's less voters, a vote makes a much bigger difference and a string of 10 votes even more. So a patch of good or bad results for your song makes a big swing.

I think as time goes folks will learn to use it for more than just the ranking or prizes, but to test out new songs, to decide which songs might be more popular for an album project, and to gauge if they've reached a general audience or not. It's clear that a better song may not always win.. but a better song won't often finish near the entire bottom of everything either.

Brian

Good luck Dave, There's no problem with asking fans to vote for you. Just don't ask them to vote down higher ranking songs to help push you up.
If you have a large fan base and they all register to vote, they will most likely have to spend a lot of time on the site just to find your song. Once they do and they think that your song is better than the other they can vote for you.
Once they find you, they can do anything they want as far as the degree of favor. But never instruct them in how to vote in degrees ex: Same, More etc. Ben

I just tried to enter a song. When I clicked on the enter button a message said that as I already had an entry in that category I could not enter another one as you can only enter one song in each category. That is fine and I can accept that. Meanwhile whilst judging I come across countless people with multiple entries in the same category. WHAT GIVES? Is it one rule for all or do some have different rules.

One other thing puzzles the hell out of me I vote a song as being better than another and over 60% agree. When I check the respective positions the "better" song that most people agree with is way below the "poorer" song and remains there. This has happened a number of times. If a song is voted better than another by the majority then why do the positions not alter accordingly?

Well Jim

I don't get it, yesterday it said my song was ranking at 273, and today it's saying it's ranking 452 in country. I think I will look into entering my songs over here in Australian competitions.

Confusing!

Michele

Michele: It's early in the month, I wouldn't get concerned about its position right now. Plus I wouldn't get down if it doesn't get the rating it deserves. It's a good song -- just let it ride.

Kevin

Michele.... Kevin is right there is a lot of jumping about early in the month and your song should settle to its proper position. However I feel that there is a big discrepancy in some of the places going by last months final positions. As I already stated some of the positions do not IMO reflect the concensus of popularity. There is a glitch in there somewhere that needs sorting. Going by my judging opinions which in the main agree with most people I fail to see how some songs are way below others or way above for that matter.

Thanks Kevin & Jim,

I just a bit confused by it all, but I am only learning, and maybe I am just not understanding it. I don't understand about the Banners & all the other things on my profile page, also the box where it says, can you do better, I've not been ranked, what does that mean? Told you I'm confused. Any way I am not really worried about where it comes now, cause I know it is a good song.

What I couldn't understand how it could go from 273 yesterday, down to 452 today, maybe I was reading it wrong, I don't know, that's what got me confused. Hmmm! Golly gosh!

I'm cool about it!

I'm off to bed now, it's my cute hubbies birthday, so I am going to spend some quality time with him. So Goodnight, and thanks for the vote of confidence.

Bye!

Michele

Big Jim
I think that little banner that pops up and says how many people agree with you might be a little misleading.
It may be more specific than that. It might be tied to which button you clicked Same..Slightly more...More....By Far

If you pick "slightly more" and 70 percent agree but the other song got "By far" and only 30 percent agree the algorithm may place the "by far' song higher even though it had less people agree.
You see 70 percent agree. That may only mean agree "Slightly more"
My guess is the algorithm that computes the standings is a lot more complex than we think. I wonder if a simpler "winner/loser" system would be easier.

Michelle
I would not worry too much about this.
My song went from 120 to 480 in less than 24 hours and only 6 people listened to it. The only thing I can figure is if half the people like it and half the people don't it must have been the don't like it bunch that heard it.
Cause I like the song. HA.... So there.

I have never visited the site but I have a question. Does a rise up the "charts" there have any relationship to the quality of the song or songwriting? Soundclick seems just as likely to push a bad song to the top as a good or mediocre one.

Sam
I don't think there is any comparison to soundclick. It is pretty easy to manipulate the charts there. I have never paid much attention to them.

Ourstage seems to be more difficult to manipulate it. You do not choose what you listen to when judging.
Judging is what determines the charts. It is random.
If you have 1000 songs in a genre you would have to spend a lot of time waiting for a specific song to come up to judge because you have no control over the playlist.

I have a song called "These old Shoes" in the Newport contest. There is another song with the same title in the same contest. The other is Bluesy and mine is more upbeat. I like the other song as well. Would love to see them paired. Ben

Bill I think you may be right I have said that the same should be abolished. It is a cop out and can be used easier to manipulate results. I think there should just be a straight choice as to which one you think is better. Degrees should not come into the reckoning.
Here is a typical example to illustrate why. Take two bad songs but one is miles better than the other. Why should you be allowed to place then the same. Brian A Whitney freely admits that he votes this way. Is this fair on the song that is better AND how much is this song's RIGHTFUL place devalued by?
I have done a lot of judgements and can say with confidence that songs voted by the majority according to the stats as better are often placed well below. If 70% or more vote the same as you I would hope that the song actually places higher.

I think their logic is that if someone is not going to vote honest in the first place, it's better to have a tie where neither song gets an advantage than have them randomly pick a dishonest winner and damage the better song while helping the worse song.

WHY DO OUR SONGS JUMP SO MUCH?

Here's what I think. In these first days, when there are 1000 or so songs...remember that a great deal of these songs have not yet been judged, so they likely are placed in the order they were posted. Your song at #200 goes up against a song at #800, and if #800 wins...they're both gonna jump...drastically!

But after a couple weeks, things begin to stabilize more, and by the end of the month, I think it all gets very close to an accurate picture of public opinion.

I see your point BUT if someone is going to be dishonest then they can go for the worst song all the time. Either way it makes little difference if they are gonna cheat they need a lot of people working for them. I think it would be fairer to honest judging if there is only a vote for which song is preferred. The temptation for voting same all the time is removed.

I think you can easily vote honestly for a tie. I do it. There are clearly really bad songs that have no advantage over the other. If two songs are sung badly, recorded badly and written badly, I don't feel I owe either of them the excruciating time it would take to find some minor reason to vote one over the other. Now, if they gave me an option to say "both songs are terrible and don't deserve positive feedback" then I'd check that.. but I think that might hurt some feelings.. so I vote tie instead.

I don't think someone who spends little or no effort on their craft and offers nothing of value in their work deserves special attention. I'd rather spend that same time on songs that show some merit and deserve legit boosts.

If you were voting on the best painter and you had 2 people who turned in blank canvases, or two people who turned in canvases they'd simply dumped a can of paint on with no other effort, it would be pointless to say "that blank is better than that blank" or "that dumped can of paint is better than that dumped can of paint." The same goes for music. If it were photos and both photographers had not bothered to take off the lens cap, I don't think I owe it to them to determine which black photo was better.

Really bad music doesn't deserve people's time. Music with some effort and demonstrated craft deserves that time. It's not like there's a shortage of deserving music.. why spend a lot of time on the stuff that hasn't deserved it. When I first started writing songs before I knew anything about craft or writing or recording something well, I don't think that work deserved equal attention with excellent recordings where people have worked hard to improve their talent and demonstrate it via the recording and writing.

So I guess we'll have to differ on this. But I think forcing me to pick a winner among two very bad songs would result in my clicking one slightly better over the other in a fairly random fashion.

Brian

You know Brian you are onto something there. I do not think we differ on opinion, maybe just about the degree of what is not very good or what really sucks. I am of the opinion that if somebody is really bad then they deserve to be told it is really bad and to some extent know how it compares to other bad stuff. I think it is a valuable part of their music education. As somebody once said how can you fix it if you do not know it is broken.
I think all people of all levels should be encouraged but there are some people who should think first and actually listen to what they are going to enter before they do. I have heard some hum dingers. I often wonder is it a bad joke or are they really that bad and just do not realise it. I listened to ninteen seconds that is all it lasted of some blond drunk bimbo saying, not singing happy birthday la la la several times over. I reported it as off topic and offensive. I said it offends and is an insult to anyone who appreciates music in any shape or form. My biggest bug is the people who send in an unlistenable recording of what is actually a fairly good song and performance.
All that effort gone to waste. Perhaps with the Ourstage tie in some of these people will join JPF and better themselves.

I am sure there must be something that makes one entry choosable over the other even if it is ONLY the photo or artwork. As I say pity some people spend more time on photos or artwork than on writing performing and recording a song. LOL

Nice chatting we should do it more often. I would really like to meet you and shake your hand. Maybe if I win the lottery or sell one of my songs to Rod Stewart. LOL

Jim,

Sadly, I suspect a lot of people DO vote for (or even against) the photo supplied. That's a pretty terrible reason as it's not relevent to the song or recording. It's exactly what labels learned long ago.. i.e. most of the challenge is the quality of the marketing, not the quality of the music. Oddly enough, I'd have thought you of all people would be vehemently against the notion of someone voting based on the photo.

Brian

What's an EPK?

Electronic Press Kit

Case in point regarding my last post: an hour ago, "The Graveyard of Songs" was at #11 on the Newport Folk Festival channel, after debuting at #2. It is now #99. D'Oh!

Thanks Brian.
I've got one at 147 in New Age/World and one at 170 in Reggae.

Are you folks registering through the JPF link? I want to make sure they understand how many of our members are joining, but I get a feeling that many are just going to the site domain instead.

I didn't register through the JPF link (didn't see any link).

Hey Brian have you seen my avatar? LOL
At the end of the day artwork is part of the package. I remember people buying albums in the seventies just for the cover. I never did that (says he lying)
Seriously though if everything alse cannot be separated then yeah go vote on a photo of a busty blond.

Brian, I tried to get to the ourstage site via your link but it takes me to their registration page. I'm already registered. If it brought me to my home page then I wouldn't have a problem. maybe you should talk to them about the landing page. Ben

My one photo is pretty obscure there. I posted a song titled, "The Fields (of Balbriggan)" in New Age/World - an instrumental based on a short visit to the small fishing community centered between Dublin and Belfast. I spent a lot of time with kids there. One of the things I did was "clowning," so I posted a pic of me putting my makeup on. Has nothing to do with the song really, but it's from the trip.

Hi All

My song today, is ranking 385, I will keep checking on it, to see how it goes.

Bad songs, I just vote the same, if one is a little better to me, I vote little more, some I have voted more as I think its a good song, but not quiet there yet, and the songs I really think deserves it, I vote by far.

I think they need to sift out the worst songs, cut back the songs, cause it takes ages to vote, there is no way I have the time to keep voting all day. It is very frustrating to keep listening to bad songs, and it detours me away from voting, cause of how long it takes.

Thanks

Michele

Brian,

Reference you comment about voting based on graphics.:

I have about half a dozen times. Why? When the songs are equally bad or equally good musically, I look to see if there is anything else that might separtae the two enough to avoid the "Same" vote. Why the graphics? It suggests to me the pride and attention they pay to both their music and their careers. No, it does not make their music any better, but it strongly suggests to me that these are folks who truly are seriously interested in furthering their careers. I am inclined to favor someone who takes his/her career more seriously than someone whom appears to not be as attentive to the details of their musical career. Those who take pride in their overall presentation in every way deserve the benefit of the doubt, as far as I am concerned. But, as I said, I have done this but half a dozen times or so out of over 2,000 judgings.

Al

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