JPF Home Page Forums Lyric and MP3 Feedback Lyric Feedback Forum 2 A curious question?

Hi folks,

I can't help but notice that most people on the lyric board 2 page have stopped posting on lyric board 1. I suppose that isn't a big deal. But what does seem a bit odd is that in addition to rarely or never posting new songs, very few seem willing to post any feedback to those songs that are posted. Is there really some magical and invisible dividing line between the two boards that keeps folks from ever crossing back and forth?

Is it too demanding to click on 2 pages? I could understand if you had to get in a car and drive 100 miles to another city to check up, but what is another click or two when you are obviously still clicking multiple pages on this single page anyway? What would happen if we changed this board back to the original only? Would folks simply stop posting?

I am really curious. I've gotten emails with theories on what is going on, but I'd rather just ask the folks here directly because it seems odd that after folks posted there for well over a year and it was down for a couple weeks and then back, what actually changed?

So please enlighten me. Is there some force field present I am unaware of? A lot of people used to complain that posts fell off the first page too quickly to catch, so with 2 boards, all the songs, including on this board, stay around longer for folks to respond to. The number of posts is actually nearly the same as it was before the lyric board problem, so it seems to be a mystery.

Thanks,

Brian

I stick with this Forum mainly to keep my work all together datewise.
And because most of the people who do me the most good are here.
I stick with one forum be it within or without of JPF because I find I spend enough time critiquing on the pne forum.
I also support songwriter, musician and of late MP3 forum.
The forums are quiet at the moment and that happens from time to time.
I do however go have a look in the old forum from time to time, and in fact have offered advice occassionaly there. Lzst couple of times I noticed the poster had not been back , or at least had not indicated they had been back.
For my part, I feel a fast forum is a happy forum.
As I see it posts only fall off the forum if they are either not much chop, or the people posting them don't do the give and tho shall recieve thing.
And yeah. I've had my share disappear with a zero. Or very little look at.
I don't do the "you looked at mine so I look at yours" thing often. I feel it bettre to critique where i feel i can offer something constructive and not just be a backpater.
Contributing to the forum is more benificial than serving the indivoidual I believe.
I do read just about everything that comes up though.
I also download every auidio of a lyric I have seen come from just that to auidio so i can critique them without the buffering streaming often gives me. I believe that is the only fair way to critique a piecs in the development stages.
On MP3 so far, I just grab titles that interest me, and do returns to them that look at mine.
Being more a word person than a musician, i feel that it best I give the most time to with I am a bit more effective in.
Regards.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/grahamhenderson_music.htm

[This message has been edited by Graham (edited 07-11-2002).]

Hey Mr. Brian,

I guess my reason is I just got in the habit of posting here when the other site went down. And probably because the forum two is my HOMEPAGE LOL, so i'm here everytime I open the dang browser.
I'll venture out to the "outback" and get back into the habit of revisiting the old stomping grounds.

Blake and Graham,

Okay, both are fair and honest replys. I'll buy them both. (I particularly find the home page thing funny...). Maybe that's why occassionally the lyric board gets more visitors than the home page, because people are coming straight here.

I do remember the debate where people wanted genre specific lyric boards, and I decided not to do that because I felt people would then abandon the other boards for 1 particular one.

My bigger fear is that the boards are quietly segmenting off between an "US" and "Them" type division and if that is actually happening, it is quite troubling. If you scan down this board, there are a lot of responses to nearly every post, on the other there's minimal or no responses to the majority of them. I can't imagine the "talent" is substantially different from one board to the next, so logically if people are objectively giving feedback to the stuff they like or find needs help they can offer, you'd expect the posts/response rate to be at least similar.

Anyone else?

Brian

Hi, Brian. Well, as for me, I just got used to posting on board 2, just like Blake. And since all my favorite writers on JPF posted here exclusively, I ended up spending all my time here.

Actually, IMO, the big mystery is, why do all the new lyricists continue posting on the original board when a quick visit to board 2 will confirm that their posts have a much better chance of being critiqued here? If I were you, I'd just incorporate boards 1 and 2 into a sort of "mega-board", or more realistically, just shut board 1 down and make board 2 the official lyric board. It's much easier just to post and critique to one board anyway.

Hope that helps clear up the mystery a bit. I've been wondering about that thing myself.

Anthony

Mornin' Brian,

Don't have time for an extended response this morning, but I'll give you my quick take.

1. I am a lazy creature of habit. Posted on board one 'til it was gone, then posted on board two. I believe you indicated you would close one board when it reached the 100K post mark. Rather than risk all that trauma again, I just stayed here.

2. A few people do post on both boards....the same lyrics.

3. I try to check the lyric board two, general message board, songwriter board, mentor board and Nashville Chapter board daily...at least to see if there have been any new posts.

4. This board is in my "favorites". I do come straight here. Never see the home page.

dawg

PS. It must be contagious.<g>

[This message has been edited by greydog (edited 07-11-2002).]

Hi Brian, before I even read your "curious question" I knew exactly what it was going to be - the subject had to come up sooner or later. I'd been wondering the same thing and have to admit to being a culprit for not commenting on both boards, even though I try to read what's on the original lyric board most days. I got into the habit of posting on the second board during the down time and although I'm not convinced there's an "us" and "them" thing happening, it's possible the gathering in June has brought some of the family closer and perhaps we feel more comfortable among friends. The segregation started before June though, so that may not be a valid point.

My honest opinion is that one board would work better.

To answer your question. I don't know why it's happened but I will make an effort to comment on both boards from now on.
Cheers, Judy

'Me too'...my answer is pretty similar to the others that have been posted. I come here out of habit...most of the writers I most enjoy reading and who have given me the strongest critiques frequent board 2...board 2 is in my 'favorite links'...yada yada. My visits usually go like this: read 5 or 6 lyrics, critique 2 lyrics from the 'regulars', critique one from a newbie member, respond on one of my lyrics or post a new one...and I can do all that right here...I'm a creature of habit, no doubt. I think one board would probably be the answer...though, you'd probably get what we used to have, again...newer writers occassionally getting mad and posting flaming messages about only getting 0-2 responses (mostly because of the high volume of posts). I'll try to drop in on board 1 more often, regardless. Just some thoughts.

Corey

[This message has been edited by Corey (edited 07-11-2002).]

Hi Brian

I was thinking the exact same thing this morning. My theory is that some people like to stick to one board and that becomes the centre of their JPF universe. The same thing happens with the MP3 board, that’s why folks post audio on the lyric boards because some people seem to like the comfort of their ‘home’ board.

I noticed an interesting thing recently. There was a post on Lyric 1 that started a good discussion about critiques and I noticed a few Lyric 2ers peeping over to have a look.

I must admit that I tend to look at Lyric 2 first but I do frequent the other boards too, I’m just not the most prolific poster.

Answer to your question: creatures of habit

Cheers

Nige

Hi, Brian!
I'm really glad you brought this up.

This is why I had hoped that lyric 1 would become archives. At first, I hung out on 2 because I had gotten used to going there. I have begun posting replies to topics on 1as well, but not in my usual quantity because I am kind of busy right now. It "looks" like the more experienced and "old hands" comment on board 2 and the "newbies" and many of the Christian writers are posting on board 1. I don't like what is happening either. I also don't see a lot of the writers on board 1 visiting board 2 either, to be fair about it .

Having two boards kind of messes up the support network we build up. If I post replies to songs on 1 but post my topics on 2, the one people don't know I have a song up for critique and vice versa. I don't like posting the same song on both boards either because I think the replies should be all together.

I am kind of absent minded and I think something's gone wrong with the board when my comments don't appear where I thought I put them. LOL

It really is becoming an "us and them" situation and that makes me uncomfortable because I prefer an integrated community. I try to read all the forums and I even peek in on the individual chapter boards from time to time.

I do try to go back and check any responses to my comments or critiques. Having two boards is harder because there are two front pages and two page 2s as well.

Generally speaking, having two lyric forums is like having two page 2s. In the past, a lot of readers had the tendency to not check page two very often. If some of us won't even go to page two, it would be out of character to go to another forum.

Anyway. One board for in progress work is what I would prefer. I would like the old board visible as an archive so I can go back and see previous works and comments. AND I would like to see a showcase board for finished lyrics because that would be a good place for composers who are "shopping" for lyricists to collaborate with and would lessen the misunderstandings that occur when people want to share their lyrics but really don't want critiques.

Anyway, thanks for opening this discussion, if nothing else it serves as a reminder that there are currently two "front" pages to check.

JeanB

Brian, I'm just a bum in a rut, that's why I never went back to #1. but critiques are very cliquesh, with often a terrible lyric receiving a bunch of great replies because the writer's in the clique. I recently went to #1 and saw a ton of new names. they likely won't receive many replies until they join the clique. they will be better off with one or two honest replies than ten backslaps by lodge brothers. JMHHHO.

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HI Brian,

I usually don't even look at Forum 2 but happened to today because I got an email from Amelia Rose and I wanted to look back at some of her work. Actually, the reason I never post on Forum 2 is that I didn't feel comfortable doing so. I was new to the board and it was very obvious as a "newbie" that forum 2 is filled with people who have know each other a long time and have been posting on this board a long time. Perhaps I am waiting around till I have 1000 posts or so to crossover. An initiation ceremony would be really nice too! But that is my reason for sticking to Forum 1.

Marla

There is a difference between a clique and a mutual support network, Rob. If someone wants to be supported, he or she must support others as well. It's a simple act of courtesy.

I do think some back slapping goes on. I also think some of the positve replies are genuine opinions. Critiquing is a real art and it isn't easy to do and everyone has different standards.

When a person is receptive to critiques and is willing to look at the critique and suggestions objectively (whether or not the proposed changes are made) he or she is more likely to be read. When that person returns the favor and does likewise a "relationship" is formed. That is not a clique that is networking.

Overtime things happen sometimes between members and "nonalliances" occur. However, that shouldn't stop any of the people from forming a network with more receptive people. Especially with new people who come on board.

This is a forum where people help each other. Does that mean we interact with people who are at different levels of experience? Does that mean that sometimes we act as teachers or mentors? Yes to both questions. We are here to both learn and to teach.


JeanB

Good morning Brian!
Interesting thread! And, it's nice to see that so many have "noticed" the obvious. But, have been and, still are a little leery in addressing the issue. Groups form; human nature imo. Neither good or bad.

Personally, I agree with 99% of all that has been said. I would say 100% but, I'm just not made that way! Being myself, I like to travel. Most of you know that. You'll find me at just about all the songwriting sites on the web. So, I'm thrilled that you offer two lyric posting sites. And, have used both. I normally try to post different material at both sites though. I did make a mistake the other day and posted the same lyric at both. Tried to delete! But, as you know we (as members) are no longer allowed too.

Anyway, not much I can add to what already has been said. But I will say: "Great job!".

Cordially yours in songwriting!
Ron Boyte

there is a difference between a clique and "support", Jean. I see clique. the reason was given in my above post. poorly written work receiving good critiques. that "supports" no one. support groups only work if those involved tell each other the truth. any more on this subject here will probably detract from Brian's original theme.

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[This message has been edited by couchgrouch (edited 07-11-2002).]

The only positive critique is a genuine opinion of the work. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Regards.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/grahamhenderson_music.htm

Ya know.....it's not that hard.....

The writers on this board write for many different reasons...
Basically tho...two types...
Those that write for fun..and those that are really trying to write lyrics they can sell to someone.

Posting a reply that says "this is terrible writing" is not a critique !
It's an opinion.
It's not constructive..but delivered to the wrong person it can be destructive.
That's not what we're here for. (IMO)
I tend to be a "pat on the back" critiquer.
I will continue to be !
I think positive reinforcement is a good thing..and it's how I work best. Not one of us have the credentials to "teach" any of the others on this board.

We can make suggestions..talk about how we might do something different..things like that..but the fact is that none of us know just what it takes to make a lyric "good" or "commercial". Successful writers in New York and Nashville and Hollywood and everywhere else will agree !

If they "knew"..then they'd write nothing but hits...and NOBODY can do that !

There are songs on the charts that would be shredded on this board (and rightly so !)

I don't respond to "casual" writers in the same tone that I use with those I consider to be "serious" writers.

As far as a "clique"...well..I don't know...
It's natural for friendships to form over a period of time...I do know that I and one other member (and she knows who she is) are often the only "mature" members responding to some of our junior writers.

That's not cos' I'm a hero..it's because I look to learn from the young, as well as from the more experienced.

One of the things that comes with age (in my case, anyway) is a reluctance to accept change.
When board 1 crashed..I was traumatized and weirded out having to switch to board 2.
I know that's pathetic..but hey......

Now, when I click on board 2 I see familiar names, and I'm comfortable with that.

I guess the logical answer would be to combine the two..it is good to get new blood !

I dunno.......

I will say this...
Several of the writers on this board have (again, in my opinion) have developed their skills markedly in the time I've been observing their work....

Speaking honestly..I'm happy with my rate of growth..and would not be here if I didn't feel I was being helped.

If others of you are unhappy with the state of things..well...
Don't let that door hit you in the ass on your way out !

Bob

Amen Brotha BOb...! Preach it!

I'm not unhappy, Bob...I was just giving my opinion to a question Brian asked. which your post failed to address. I know saying something is terrible writing can be destructive, I've been told that many times. i rarely, rarely say anything about the lyrics for that very reason. for example blake's line "on the shore of my heart" is the kind of line IMHO, a 12 year old girl would write. would i normally say that? nope...I'd avoid any critique of his lyric because i can't think of a nice way to say the lyric is filled with corny lines and bad poetry. preach THAT, brotha...

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Gosh...silly me..

I thought Brian was adressing the question about reticence to post on the other board...

Gee..I though I addressed that...wait let me read my post again...

Yeah...there it is...
Must not have made it to Cochise !

Seems like the other stuff was about things that others had mentioned....

Gosh..Just shows how wrong I can be !

Just more "bad" writing.I'm afraid.

Brian,

Well shucks...let`s see...

Creatures of habit. When board #1 crashed, board #2 became home. Lazy. Not enough time. Comfort zone. On and on the reasons go, and they all apply to me!

Anthony and Jean both made excellent points about posters on the #1 board not posting or commenting on board #2. (Creatures of habit there too.)

If someone from board #1 posted a lyric on board #2, and thanked people for the comments...AND did some critiquing/commenting on the lyrics here...I think everyone would benefit from it. (Same thing for board #2 dwellers, stopping at board #1, of course.)

There`s no secret handshake for board #2. Have alot of us met each other and had fun? Sure. That surely doesn`t mean we`re some secret "Dead Poet Society lyric writers faction".

Creatures of habit, AND familiarity is all.

Sooo, mix in all the comments before mine, with mine, and your answer is clear as a bell. Isn`t it?? If not, you could combine them, or I`ll diligently try to visit Lyric Feedback Forum #1 more often...as well as the other JPF forums that I seem to neglect.

Good question...but hopefully not one causing great agony for anyone.

Regards,

Dano.

P.S.- For the life of me, I couldn`t find the Allentown, Pa. JPF Chapter listed under the chapters. You did tell me in Nashville, there was one...didn`t you??

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www.angelfire.com/music3/danolyrics

Went to town once,got hungry.
Found a lively restaurant,lots a people enjoying themselves all sitting at large tables...not much room,felt reticent about joining in...all's I had was small talk...one fellow sittin at a table by himself...didn't look like he wanted company....not wanting to eat alone,I left...found another restaurant lots of tables each with one person , each person with a hungry look...were is the waiter?...being hungry myself I knew I'd fit in went over and joined someone where we commenced to complain about the service which finally arrived,had some food...good too!...put a coin in the juke box and asked a gal name jennie to dance...cool! Ever since, thats were I go everytime I'm in town.

Bean

[This message has been edited by beancounter (edited 07-11-2002).]

That's the thing though couch. You definitely are allowed to have opinions, but your opinions are stated in such a fashion that they are fact...and they're not. The original issue was why people weren't critiquing on both boards...you got off on this tangent. I know you post on both, but do you critique...rarely. I know you have it in you do somewhere to be CONSTRUCTIVE. You can dislike something, and still be constructive. Not everyone here has the same writing abilities...everyone's at a different stage of development.
I suppose you can think there's a clique here. I see new people like Trudi, Lost and others that get plenty of responses...did they send the clique money to get posts? I think not. But they make the effort to post on other people's lyrics. Who is to say what stinks and whats commercial...you? I don't think so...none of us are. I know we've both heard stuff we think stinks on the radio, and like Bob said would get shredded here.

I just think it's important to remember these are just opinions. So if people have one, i think it serves everyone best when they are constructive. Otherwise, why would anyone be here? No one's gonna have a record company email them from a lyric that is posted wanting to cut it.

[This message has been edited by blakeh (edited 07-11-2002).]

Brian,
To clarify things, I'm editing my comments and boiling them down this:

I think it would be great if you could find some technical way to completely re-combine the two lyrics boards into ONE. Ta da!

My reasoning is simple:
If there is NO difference between the two, then it wouldn't matter if they were once again combined into ONE main lyrics "motherboard" as it always was before.

On the other hand, I've never heard of any suggestions that we should have more than one of each type of specific forum. For example, two or three MP3 Forums, or two or three Musicians Forums, etc that are all exactly the same and exisit for the same purpose!

Thanks!
Michael Borges



[This message has been edited by Michael Borges (edited 07-12-2002).]

Actually...to further my thoughts a bit, I just visited Lyric Feedback Forum #1. Here`s a synopsis:

One "This Is Horrible" post explaining why boards like this torture writers who write from the heart, and how taking someone else`s advice to make your lyric better seems to be a bad thing.

Seven lyrics from one writer.

A good percentage of what`s left is broken into two catagories.

Lyrics with alot of replies, because the writer acknowledges the comments/critiques they`ve been given, and gives thanks for said comments.

Lyrics with few or no replies, because the writer hasn`t responded to the feedback they got, or just posted and ran, without so much as commenting on other`s lyrics.
(Or possibly, people just haven`t got around to it?)

Seems as though, the more feedback or attention you give, the more you get.

Of course, this is just an observation/opinion. Dano.

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www.angelfire.com/music3/danolyrics

Another point to consider:

Suppose you just found Just Plain Folks today. You managed to find the message boards and thought, hey, look at all these posts. I am going to post my lyric and get some feedback. Where would you likely post that first message? I think we all know the answer.. on original Lyric board. It's got more overall posts, it comes up first, and (and this is my fault for sure) there's no explanation to new folks why there are 2 boards in the first place. (I am going to fix that later today).

So being the new kid, I post my lyric on board 1 and no one responds. I see that historically, every post on the old lyric board has average over 10 replies. But mine has none. I then think..hmmm.. why doesn't anyone want to respond to my post. So I look further into what is going on and see that on lyric board 2, everyone is getting tons of responses. I ask myself.. are these the "pro" writers? I am just the new kid, so I don't want to post here when my lyrics get no responses at all... guess I am just not good enough... and I'll never get into that clique where everyone is already friends...


Lest you think this is unrealistic, it is a composite of several real life comments/emails I have gotten. Folks who are new go to the main lyric board. They aren't even aware there was ever a board crash and there's nothing to explain why the board is so big, but no one wants to comment on the new folk's lyrics, because most people don't perceive any big reason that folks wouldn't check both (or all) of the message boards on the site.

There is a very good reason right now why we haven't gone back to a single board. Circumstances prevent a detailed discussion on the topic so you'll have to take my word for it.

So both boards are here to stay for the forseeable future. And frankly, having the second board HAS resulted in more new folks posting lyrics and some feel it is much less threatening than posting it in the maelstrom of the busier board. But the difference in support of lyrics on board 1 that seem to me in general to be just as good as the lyrics on board 2 has started to create a noticeable chasm with separate groups of people i.e. the "majority old regulars" and the "new members/minority old regulars" that might continue to develop without a little open discussion.

I do understand people being creatures of habit. I am myself. I also understand people wanting to post where they feel the biggest payoff will be.

But I think as a community, we all have a responsibility to make our community what we all hope it will be. That is a place where everyone is welcome and everyone who treat others with respect get a fair amount of support and nurturing themselves. That isn't always easy to maintain, and though we can all be guilty of "being a little lazy" now and then, including myself, if we want this community to be BETTER than the run of the mill, we each need to put a little more effort into it. I've always felt we have a certain magic in this organization. The sheer and immense diversity that has come together is quite mind boggling. For the most part, it's nearly always harmonious in ways that are almost unexplainable. We do shows and events around the country that bring in people who live in the same towns and neighborhoods, but who would never come together for any other reason. We get folks from all over the world come to the website in pretty large numbers and for the most part our site is the friendliest one you can find. Even our "bad" moments are better than some sites "best" moments. Even our most heated discussions generally end with positive results. But we can't afford to always just rest on our collective laurels. Now and then, it might take a few percentage points of extra effort to prop up a potential weak spot or to close a potential division that may only widen and turn into something bad instead of just something curious.

If that situation rings a bell with anyone, and if you feel the urge to take a little community ownership and decide that you want to help make sure this community DOES continue to be the amazing thing it has become, then take an extra minute to expand your efforts. Break the rut pattern you might have formed now and then and put a little work into making this an even better place than it already is. One tiny piece of effort times the thousands of people who visit here translates into a huge huge difference every day.

Food for thought.. thanks to everyone for chiming in. That alone proves we are indeed a unique collective in an internet world where negativity and flames far out number positive efforts and true community spirit.

Brian

And I forgot to add:

There are clearly people here who go way above and beyond to make this a great community. And we all know who those folks are! This is just intended to remind all of us that our community is great, but even the healthiest and most thriving garden needs a little gardening work to keep going.

Brian

Hi, Brian. I have an easy solution to the board 1/board 2 problem-- if you don't want to make board 1 an archive, then how about simply renaming board 2 as board 1, and vice versa? That might solve a lot of future problems for newcomers right there.

Anthony

Brian,
To clarify things, I'm editing my comments and boiling them down this:

I think it would be great if you could find some technical way to completely re-combine the two lyrics boards into ONE. Ta da!

My reasoning is simple:
If there is NO difference between the two, then it wouldn't matter if they were once again combined into one main lyrics "motherboard" as it always was before.

On the other hand, I've never heard of any suggestions that we should have more than one of each type of forum. For example, two or three MP3 Forums, or two or three Musicians Forums, etc.

Thanks!
Michael Borges



[This message has been edited by Michael Borges (edited 07-12-2002).]

One thing sticks out in here at the moment.
I would have thought this question would have been asked on both forums Brian, so as to get a full picture from all users.
I for one will not be changing my tack.
If people want to think themselves not ready to go to any given forum. Maybe they aren't.
And just a little side note on the side issue.
Rob. I thought the shores of the heart line in Blake's last one was a bit wet and out of it too, I also offered a thought on it which may or may not be used.
And got thanked for thre thought too.
Something that didn't happen to the last few zeros i killed from wander in posters by the way.
Even had an email asking me to comment on a post a while ago, and I did. Still waiting to see a thanks or even a what the hell do you know anyway reply.
I also read your last one Rob and refrained from saying it had been done a whole lot better by a whole lotta others because I have gathered the opinion over the years you don't really want opinion and rarely if ever offer anything in return.
REgards.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/grahamhenderson_music.htm

Michael,

I am guessing you are trying to be helpful, but your comments are pretty far off base and defy their own logic.

1. If having 2 boards is 1 too many, how would having several boards with different topics improve the problem we are discussing? Answer: It wouldn't. It would simply exaggerate it even more. If folks are saying (which the clearly are here) that they are creatures of habit and only want to visit a single board.. period... your statement is totally illogical.

2. The problem being discussed here has more to do with the social aspect of the board than the technical aspect. We've read a lot of posts here so far, but I've gotten even more private emails since this message started where folks have expressed concerns about about issues like cliques (or worried that they are being perceived as one) and there is no technical solution to that phenomena (and in truth, everything you do in life has cliques and it's only if those develop into negative things that it's a problem.) I don't think it's really a negative problem here, but communication and understanding is always the best safeguard to quelling concerns people have that there is some underlying secret handshake (as someone put it earlier) type of collective here. There isn't. It's really a case of people naturally becoming friends like you would in any community, and also spending what little time they have free with those they are friends with. It's perfectly reasonable and understandable. But if you don't openly discuss issues like this, peoples imaginations and natural paranoia can develop into something more than that. Thus, the friendly discussion here. Almost all social problems in the world can be improved or prevented by open communication and understanding of people's concerns.

3. It takes exactly the same amount of work to critique a song on one lyric board as another. Your "double work" statement defies common sense. Unless you truly believe that 1 extra mouse click constitutes a harrowing amount of work. If so, I am sorry, but I can't help you. I remember an old episode of the Jetson's where George was complaining about how brutal his job was because he had to push 2 buttons on days instead of his normal 1. That always stuck with me and darned if that absurb comical statement hasn't crept into reality.

4. As for taking responsibility, I think that's exactly what I am doing here. Bringing the issue out. Remember, I don't post lyrics here for feedback. But I try to address as many issues simultaneously both here and away from the "internet" portion of our group as I can. Not only do I take responsibility, I also try as often as possible to take proactive action.

I also must remind you once again that the message boards now comprise about 13% of our member base, which some folks, like yourself, seem to think is where the world begins and ends. It isn't. I think some of the folks who made it to the gathering in Nashville got to see 1 example of the types of things that happen at chapters every month, and the types of things that happen during roadtrips throughout the year. Ask Jean Bullock is there is more to this group than the Lyric message board? And even she is still new to some of the other professional opportunities that exist. There's a lot more than just the message boards. I don't think you have any perspective on that at all based on your comments above.

5. Compressed music files space would be a major waste of resources. There are TONS of free places to post files. And folks can easily link a file here. Why spend money on that "service" when it's so readily available in so many places. Now, if you want to write a donation check for say 10K dollars a year, I will be happy to create that type of service for you and everyone else. If not, you'll have to let us decide where to put the resources we have available to best use. I think the fact that we've created the largest music org. in the world and kept if FREE for our members means we're doing something right.

6. As for your comment about adding "serious music industry features" to the group. Well, beyond just being offensive, it simply shows how out of touch you are with the things we do and that you lack much understanding of what constitutes serious music industry features. And I haven't even touched on the fact that you seem to want us to change and become just like everything else out there you apparently think is better. But if all those other places ARE better, I have to wonder why you came here in the first place? If they offer all those great things, apparently it wasn't enough to keep you there right? Do other sites offer different things than we do? Yes. Do other sites do cool things or some things better than we do? Yes. We even endorse several of them on our home page. Muses Muse, Indie-Music, CDBaby, Future of Music, Music Dish, Star Polish, Indiegrrl, TAXI and many others have their own "bent" to the way they do things and I encourage you to check out all of them. They're all good people like us. But making us all the same wouldn't help anyone. I think there are things that we do that are better than anyone else. Hopefully the folks that use those other sites will come here as well for the things we do the best.

It's all well and fine to offer suggestions or requests, or even complain about things you don't like. But lecturing me as if you really understand all the issues you are discussing isn't particularly productive, especially when you are so far off base. Telling me I need to take responsibility for what I have created here is just plain offensive.

Brian

Brian: thanks for the discussion...all have apoint to a point....I had tried to "keep up" with both boards for a while....there was very little activity on the first board....I felt I was "wasting" my time going back and forth....so I quit for a while....I went back not long ago to check it out again...mainly looking for a song that'd been posted about the time of the breakdown...still saw very little activity...I did stop and "critiqued" a song or two...went back a couple days later and had had no response to my critique...so I quit again going back to board 1.
Now, I think most people have come to "know" me as the biggest "support" for the Newer writers....I've even used "private emails" to keep them coming back....
Recently I haven't done a whole lot of any activity on the boards...for I don't feel much like it healthwise, soon I'll be gone a long while and can't....but I still intend to return one day and pick up being one of the Older members to try my best to keep the Newbies coming back....Now if they don't answer my critique how can I know that I've encouraged or discouraged them?????
I DO NOT like having two boards...it makes it twice as hard for me to "know" who the newbies are plus be able to keep up with the lyricists that are "ready" for "composer" work......

Gosh, I am really late on this one! I have to agree with everyone before me as far as being more comfortable with board 2, mainly because most (if not all) of the original people from board 1 are here. I don't have much time to spend when I check the board, so I only post and respond on board 2. That's not to say that I haven't ventured over to board 1 out of curiousity, but my time is pretty limited, so that has not been very often. I do understand your point, Brian, about someone new checking out the site and I'm sure I would go to board 1 first. But I would have to say that, since I have only been a member since Feb 02, being new is not easy no matter what board you post on! It takes time to get a "feel" for the other people and establish a relationship -- as others have said before, it is a matter of "give" and "take". Respond to others and they will respond to you, most of the time anyway. There are a few that I have posted comments on their lyrics, and don't think I have ever had a response from them on any of mine. But that's the way it goes -- I'm not losing any sleep over it! Anyway, unless the 2 boards are combined, or board 2 crashes and we have to go back to board 1, I will probably just stay on this one.

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Mary Lou

Ok folks,

I already said I am a lazy creature of habit, but I would hate to think that I was so lazy or hide-bound that I couldn't encourage a few new folks. I can, and will, at lease make the effort to alternate days between boards and try to make some of the new folks feel welcome.

I don't have to change names when I change boards, do I?<g>

dawg

HI Brian, and "KUDOS" for Bringin' this Up!

I STILL Start out on Board One...IF they have an INTERESTING Title (And I got Time) I critique THERE First. THEN I scoot over to Board 2, where, YES, Most of My Friends/Acquaintences seem to be Posting.

When I'm on a Roll, lyrically, I'll post on BOTH Boards. Lately, I've been near-Blocked (But with PLENTY of Next-CD-Production-Stuff to Deal With) so I'm Posting very little on EITHER Board.

In an Unexpected Way, Board One lets the NEW Writers "Connect" with the New Writers...sort of the Same Way many of us "Old" Writers connected a year-or-Two-(or More)-Ago. Most of us "Old" Posters made the Trek to Pineyfest and REALLY "Bonded"...SORRY if that seems "Cliquish"
to some of Those who Never Made the Effort, but ya Reap what Ya Sow, N'est-ce pas?

As I go thru the Steps of Formin' a Local Band (Which is sorta the NEXT Logical Songwriting STEP, when ya have an Overabundance of "Marketable Lyrics" & Noone but YOU is Recording Them) and don a Producer's Cap, I'm gettin' less & Less "Free Time" for Either Board...but am Really GLAD you've provided them BOTH.

Yes, Board One IS "Less-Professional"... but there ARE Some Board 2-ers who DO Peek In from Time to Time. (My OWN Regret is there's Rarely, if EVER, been a Nice Visit from one of the MANY JPF "Mentors" to critique a few of Our Wares on EITHER Board. An Occasional "Peek" by any of those Many Kind Mentor Folks would REALLY Perk Things Up here. (JMO, Natch...) ;-)>

That'd be my Sole Suggestion... I have no Problem with the "Status Quo." Just Wish I had more time to Spend Here...LOTS of Talent on Both Boards.

Big Guy-Hug,
& THANKS AGAIN for BOTH these Babies!
Stan

Hmmmm........ Interesting.
So far I have treeted the entire forum as a deversified comodity. I start form the top, and work my way down (general, lyric1, mp3 and so on). It is true that most of my time is spent on the mp3 side of things, and find that it takes a great deal of time.
I feel It is very important for me to give a look at every thing.. I get a great deal of info covering topics of all sorts. Some times I stick my foot in my mouth (part of the learning prossess). I did find it destressing when every one moved to lyric 2, and find it kinda funny that the lyric writers almost never stop in on the mp3 forum. I know if I were shopping for a musician that could possibly put my words to music, that would be the place. As a musician, I stop in on both lyric forums for ideas. Seems it could work the other way around. Gram once said so himself, and now takes part in the mp3 forum. Smart move if I do say so myself.
So basically what I'm trying to say is, This is a big forum, take a look around. Sticking with one part of the grater picture is silly. It would be like looking out the same windo all your life. You'd miss quite a bit. Take a look around folks, it's a big world out there.

I go now to remove foot from mouth!

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www.besonic.com/kaboombahchuck

Stan,

The reason that mentors are less likely to post on the message boards is because often in the past, whenever they do, people generally latch on to them and start asking for "free" services etc. beyond their posts. This has happened in the past with legal experts, PR experts, songwriting educators, publishers, producers etc. That isn't neccessarily bad in and of itself (the communication part), but the problem gets far worse when 1 of the folks who make this contact act unproffesionally towards the mentor when they say they can't continue to help for free, or simply because they don't have the time. This sadly has happened on more than one occassion in the past.

Because we ask our mentors to do a lot for the group for free, it's unfair to subject them to unneccessary abuse from a couple malcontents. Even when Michael Laskow attempted to address questions/concerns that folks had about TAXI, and even offered to fly the two most vocal detractors to LA at his expense, introduce them to real A&R execs and give them carte blanche to see how TAXI does their thing, instead of accepting his offer or at least appreciating it, one (and others not involved in the offer) chose to attack him for it. That type of response doesn't make other mentors or friendly industry experts want to jump in. In the past, other mentors have made comments to try and help folks and those who disagreed have attacked them. This has happened very recently and I was disappointed that a few people unwilling to see reality choose to spoil it for everyone.

The worst fear I have is that if a mentor came here and honestly critiqued a song and found problems with it, that someone would tee off on them. To most reasonable participants here, that wouldn't happen, but again, it seems like real experts tend to bring a few malcontents out of the wordwork sometimes.

I've long wanted more direct mentor interaction via the message boards. For the most part, our mentors regularly attend chapter meetings and workshop events around the US. I may try for a test run to get some of them to do some open critiques here. Perhaps we could do it as a reward system starting with the folks who have made the most posts in a given time period to help others, will get a pro-critique themselves from a mentor on the open message boards. Anyone have any thoughts on that type of idea? That way, it pays back those who take the time from their own work to help others here.

I am always open to those types of contructive suggestions. Thanks to Stan for bringing the topic up.

Brian

Well. While all this was going on, ,and because it is raining cats and dogs herre, I did a wander around to see what other forums were doing. Not a lot.
Musicisn's forum has had only nine shifts since my last comment there on the 28th of June. And the reply I gave that post has not been acknowledged. That's OK. I won't bother going through all my referance books to try to help that guy again in a hurry.
Songwriters has had 18 post changes since my last comments there o the 18th of june. And i told three of my very favourite jokes there too.
That's OK too. I got other jokes.
MP3 forum I didn't bother checking the dates but there are only a few poast above the last one I replied on.
It was acknowledged by the bloke but I do notice it is sitting on top of my last one still with a zero on it.
Seems to me this forum here works better than all the rest put together. And most have good manners as well.
Even now when we have been going through a drop the baby and run era for reasons only those dropping and running can know.
Maybe the idea is to see what dan be done to get the other less active forums alive and kicking.
Hey.Maybe that is why it works so well. What an original thought.
A bloke could write a lyric about that I bet.
Regards
Graham



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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/grahamhenderson_music.htm

Graham,

I wish I knew what you are trying to say so I could respond, but your last few sentences lost me.

In general:

If the overall sentiment of this post is taken into account, we should actually remove ALL the other boards and have 1 singular message board for all topics and discussion. That would keep anyone from having to make an extra dreaded click, and it would force everyone to view at least the most recent 50 posts made, even if they were on 50 different types of topics.

Okay.. so that was a Rhetorical statement.. don't reply to it because I'm not going to actually do it.

I think most would agree that it's good to have multiple boards for different types of topics. Though it's unfortunate that a lot of the other boards get much less discussion from lyric board posters. it's really not an issue that bothers me because I don't expect the lyric board folks to post on the Musician board for example. I also don't expect Graham to post on the Phoenix message board for the same reason.

But the 2 lyrics boards are the same subject, the same thing that drives 12 responses on average to every post made here. We KNOW there is an interest in the subject. We know there is a desire for the exchange of feedback. There is a valid reason there is a need to keep both boards going. If you can accept that factor on good faith, my goal is to find a way to keep the mood positive for everyone.

If some folks are feeling a weird "tension" between the two boards, it's important to nip that in the butt before it turns into something real. To most folks, it's obviously an issue they've sensed, or most wouldn't have posted here acknowledging the issue and others wouldn't have sent me email about it (by the way, I always welcome private email.. don't let people make you feel bad if you choose to discuss issues in private...that is totally your right and I welcome discussion with folks.)

So, I think a lot of the air in that tension balloon has already been released for some folks. Perhaps there are new issues, and if there are, then I am glad they are coming up. I can't possibly say it too much.. communication solves most problems. The more you do it, the earlier you solve them. Just as this topic has branched out into other areas and may help shed light on other things to focus on, like productive ways to get the mentors to do critiques here. (In fact, I sent a note out to 12 of them a few minutes ago to discuss how we might be able to do this).

If Grahams point was that the Lyric 2 boards is already perfect and should be left alone and no discussion should take place suggesting changes (which sort of seemed like where he was going), then that means we rest on our Laurels and don't work to make things better. Hopefully that wasn't his point at all. Hopefully it was, hey, we have all this action here, lets try to build that same participation level everywhere else as well.

Brian

My last sentance was meant to be a bit of a joke I still think it was funny but maybe not.
All along I have said having two lyric boards working was not a too bright idea and when you stated you wanted to retire the old one when it hit the all zeros mark, I suggested we all get in anf get that happening so we were back to the one forum That did not eventuate and i got sick of posting on the old one to no avail so came back here. It was only a few days and i was more involved in music than words at the time anyway.
If I had time to or inclination to do two boards i would be more inclined to give some of my time to Shayne Vayghan's TWS which got me , and a lot of us here started on this critiquing for self improvement kick.
I take the opposite tack to yiurself anfd have oftewn suggested all lyricists would serve themselves a whole lot better if they spent some time on the Music and songwriter's forums.
After all scribling a few words on a page don't make anybody a lyricist.
Seeing folk like Dawg and Bobbie starting to improve their music side is great.
Seeing a musician/performer/wntertainer like Bob Young in here working o his lyrics is also great.
That sort of thing can only make a person better at whatever they lean toward.
Yow. My Piney Fest Tee shirt Just came. Ye Haw. Thanks John where ever ya are Cobber.
Back to the subject sitting here in my Piney Fest Treasure.
I now look at the first forum as a spare to be used if this one ever falls over like the first one did for a time.
Reading your comments again Brian, it seems my point was missed.
I am saying it seems the people who put the most effort into keeping their forum running are now being asked to go inject some life into another forum, that in my opinion should be read only for the time being, where that enthusiasm is lacking.
There is already too much get the workers to work harder so the loafers and less giving people can loaf harder in this world for me to contribute to it.
Regards.
Graham





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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/grahamhenderson_music.htm

Brian,
I suppose I am guilty as well, of just staying where I am the most comfortable. When I started posting a few years ago, it was with the writers that are now on #2. Is it a clique? Perhaps... but in all fairness, anyone can be a part of it. All you have to do is Constructively critique others' work and be willing to try and do it as often as you can. Most people here are more than ready to accept new writers and try to help them however they can. As far as the other part about the mentor critiques, I think it'd be a really nice thing to have. We all want to know how we'd stack up when it matters and their feedback on a regular basis would be appreciated. There could be a "no more critiques from the mentor" penalty if someone tries to glom onto one of them for free. Thanks for all you do,
Tony

Well that settles it, everybody posts on lyric board 2 then. Correct? LOL I am kidding.

I wanted to jump in here in reference to life after the lyric board. Another person who will back me up is Marla. If you think our lyric board is great, get involved in your local chapter and show up (and also sign up) for the roadshow showcases and workshops, you will be even more impressed.

Already we are creating a community in Orange County. The people there are like here. Wonderful and supportive and not only that, the doors will be opening soon for many of us. I can't even describe how neat it is. How many meetings do you go to where the people stay and keep networking and sharing long after the meeting's over. Not only that, sometimes you get hugs! That is how neat it is. And the music we get to hear. Fabulous. There are so many opportunities even just in the chapter. I do admit we are extra lucky because we have JPF mentor, Joey Arreguin guiding us. Oh the wealth of knowledge this man shares with us!

This is only the beginning. Great things will come of JPF. (Great things are beginning to happen already) All it takes is a little effort and communication.

Anyway, join and support your local chapter if you have one near you. A chapter meeting is an especially good opportunity for lyricists to meet composers and performing musicians. And if you don't have a chapter near you. Guess what? Gather people together and get one started. Whatever you do, if you can, get to any of the roadshow showcases or workshops. You will be glad you did.

JeanB

HI Again, Brian, and Thanks for the Further Thought on Mentors' Critiquin'...

IF you got, say, 7 of them Willing to Critique ONE Song of their Choosing, each on a Different Day of the Week, the "Duties" wouldn't be TOO "Time Consuming"...

AND, if maybe, they'd ALTERNATE "Boards" from Day-to-Day, ya might just find LOTS of Posters Alternating Boards a Lot More, TOO! (Whether to Inform us or Not of their "Itinerary"'d be up to you.)

Think this'd perk things up a bit for BOTH Boards, Properly-Done. JMO, Again, and yeah, I been Wrong Before..heh!

Big Guy-Hug & Again, Big Thanks!
Stan

Brian,
To clarify things, I have edited my comments and boiled them down this:

I think it would be great if you could find some technical way to completely re-combine the two lyrics boards into ONE. Ta da!

My reasoning is simple:
If there is NO difference between the two, then it wouldn't matter if they were once again re-combined back into one main lyrics "motherboard" as it always was before.

On the other hand, I've never heard of any suggestions that we should have more than one of each type of forum. For example, two or three "MP3 Forums", or two or three "Musicians Forums", etc.

Thanks!
Michael Borges



[This message has been edited by Michael Borges (edited 07-12-2002).]

PS..I Really need to Shaddup...it's 3:40 AM...but HAD to add that the "Snipers" that Michael Laskow Replied To so WELL here at JPF DID Have an Effect on Me:

I bought a TAXI Membership August a Year Ago..got SO Busy (Postin' on The Sole Board we had was a Big Factor) That I never USED the Membership...(The Paperwork Involved per-Submission/$5-per-Song Submitted were Big Factors in My Procrastination)

...'Till AFTER I read Michael's Response.
The Man frankly Impressed-the-Hell outta me! I'm on my 10th TAXI Submission this Month--(One of the Many Reasons I'm NOT Posting so frequently on Either Board..Preparin' These Takes TIME) and have about 5-6 MORE I'll be sendin' in over the next week. {Hopefully, I'll
send something Good Enough In, that I'll get Something Signed/be in a Position to REALLY Sing His Praises...but even if I Don't, I find I truly BELIEVE in What He's Tryin' to DO for me & My Fellow Would-Be Successful Writers.}

DO let Michael KNOW that Yeah, a few JPF'ers may have "Savaged Him a Bit"..& Yeah, This HAPPENS Occasionally, but the MAJORITY of Us Here thought he did a MAGNIFICENT Job of "Settin' the Record Straight". Doubt ANYBODY coulda answered a Critic BETTER! I plan on Scrapin' ANOTHER $300 together & really USING My TAXI Membership Next Year---& he can THANK this little Forum here for Making up MY Mind..heh-heh!

Thanks and "BRAVO" again for Both of Ya..
G'nighty, As Well!
Stan

G'day Brian, I have just lifted my head above water, so to speak and saw your message. I have got in the habit of coming to this board, I guess its 'FEAR', YES -'FEAR' of what happened before when the original board went down and two things happened to me. First, I had great problems/delays and disappoints too in TRYING TO ACCESS the original board and when I did, I found that my sequence of posts and responses to other JPFolks posts was broken, so interrupted in fact to cause me not to go back there. I don't know if other JPFolks had the same difficulties in Australia as I did. I am not adverse to posting or reponding on the original board, I guess I just got out of the habit of doing so. I rather think that ONE BOARD is the only way to go. Hope this helps you. best wishes, Ray in Australia.

Ray,

Just to set the record straight, the reason the original board stopped working is that someone intentionally sabotaged it. Plain and simple. It was intentional. The same people could come to lyric board 2 and do the same thing. Thus, because of the demand and the traffic, we'll likely have 2 lyric boards to provide protective redundancy from now on. If we combined the two, either here or back on the first board, it could happen again on either one.

I hope that is enough info to quell that aspect of the discussion. Believe me, it would be easier for us to just have one. But circumstances simply don't allow that, at least for the time being. Because there was no "mechanical" problem with board 1 (at least nothing that isn't equally a risk with board 2 and all the others), switching to just lyric board 2 wouldn't offer any protection. And it isn't the "size" of the board either (though we thought that was it before we learned the truth). Some of these UBB board sizes have grown to far more posts that ours on other non music industry sites which use them.

Thanks,

Brian

Brian,
Now that you brought up that item about the sabatoge, that makes it very understandable why you would want to keep both posts going.
Hey, that really clears up a lot of things and gives me a better perspective on the issues.

I hope I wasn't completely misunderstood by
my initial comments which have since been edited and "boiled down" for simplicity's sake.

I don't think anyone minds having a variety of "specialty" boards, for example:
A Lyrics board, an MP3 board, a Musician's Board, various Chapter boards, etc.

I was only trying to point out that (at the time) it didn't make much sense to me to have duplications of the same board.

Again, not having know the "true" reason for the lyrics board split , I was just voicing my opinion in terms of what would normally have been the "ideal" way to go.

So, bottom line, I agree with your point that it is easier to run and manage a board that doesn't have duplicate forums running in parallel. But, under the circumstances, it does seem logical to keep both as "back up" insurance.

Please accept my apologies for having "sounded off" before I had a chance to fully understand the details behind this whole phenomena!

You've got a great concept going here, and I hope we can all continue to do our part to help keep it going and from time to time contribute helpful suggestions.

Kindest regards,
Michael Borges