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I ran across this video which presents a conceptual view of musical frequencies. I thought that it was very good and possibly helpful to other people doing recordings.
This is precisely what I couldn't stand about BIAB! It seemed to me that BIAB has its own very unique EQ, and places instruments strangely so you're forced to record within the confines of the program. Does that make sense? To me, it made all the instruments far too confined and flat sounding. Musical instruments are dynamic, there's always going to be some overlap, especially in the high range where your room and "air" lives.
This is precisely what I couldn't stand about BIAB! It seemed to me that BIAB has its own very unique EQ, and places instruments strangely so you're forced to record within the confines of the program. Does that make sense? To me, it made all the instruments far too confined and flat sounding. Musical instruments are dynamic, there's always going to be some overlap, especially in the high range where your room and "air" lives.
Tony,
BIAB gives you control over the exported files. You are not stuck with one set of default settings. You can use it as a plug in, in your DAW and drop and drag files dry...and then apply your own efx. I typically don't do that because I like the way BIAB sends them out by default and they adjust pretty easily. BIAB takes time and effort to learn. It pays off nicely. If you dont want to invest the time to learn it, you will never like what it does and anything that you do with it will sound disjointed.
Which will cause you to bump your gums about how you hated it back in 2008. That is actually where "air lives."
Can you tell, despite how I tried to Eq the piano and opening guitar bit, how I was forced to Eq my overall recording to accommodate the piano? BIAB instruments are all squashed into the midrange and you can't Eq that out because there isn't any high/low dynamic to play with. I obviously familiarized myself with the program rather quickly considering I got my $99 back lol. Perhaps that's the problem, I should have spent more money...
Tony, From where I sit , I can't really tell you why you can't get a desired result out of band in the Box or why you never seem to have a clean pair of underwear at any given time. I'm not there so I can't know.
I think that I bought the second tier version of band in a box so your version maybe too light on functionality. I like the way band in the Box rolls out the tracks, but there are a lot of controls in my version. As far as getting their tracks to sit in the mix, I have EQ, compression, multi-band compression, Reverb and delay. Somewhere in that I can make myself happy most of the time.
Another possibility is that you need to put in more time in to learn the program.
If you don't like it, don't use it. But do other people a favor and don't sour them on it, based on your inability to get a good result.
Possibly leaving the bong alone for a couple of weeks would help this. :-) :-)
Japov beyond the eqing part, the instruments provided by BIAB make the timing off. It all sounds like they are playing different songs...which technically they are, a computer program is pushing them together.
The second tune sounds alot better, i dont know if you used BIAB or not.
But in fairness, you need more than the 99 bucks to get more "feel" out of the program. If you have enough of them, mixing genres and styles, you might hit upon one that has the feel you want. But i believe all the instruments need to be on the same page. Alot of times its square pegging in round holes, based mainly on the demos ive heard from it over the years, and currently.
I don't have a clue what happened back in '08 lol, and I really don't care. My experience with the "cheap" version is what it is, but it's also the reason I know exactly what I'm hearing now.
When I asked for my money back this past December they asked me for a reason why... I said, "In my opinion the program is probably far too complicated for a real beginner, but doesn't go far enough to accommodate an actual musician either."
Gavin and many others here do great with BIAB, It is a fine tool to format your song with... assuming you actually know what that means.
If it is not for you, there is no reason that you have to use it. But it is a great tool and getting better all the time. So don't tell others how bad it is. They may think that you actually know what you're talking about and act on that, thereby depriving themselves of an excellent songwriting tool.
Tony, I'm intrigued by this sentence from your post above: "BIAB instruments are all squashed into the midrange and you can't Eq that out because there isn't any high/low dynamic to play with." Wouldn't the frequencies be tied to the sound the instrument makes? A piano playing a middle C or a G would always be the same frequency - otherwise it wouldn't be a middle C or a G? I think (and hope) I might be setting myself up for an explanation of something I don't fully grasp here.
Wouldn't the frequencies be tied to the sound the instrument makes?
Yes. An open low E on the guitar vibrates at about 83 cps. I suspect that varies with the transient and decay. I havent done this yet, but If you record an open E and then put the recording on an eq, there will be range of frequencies involved but they will cluster around 83. Probably in a bell shape similar to the video above. Some of the higher frequencies will be the metallic nature of the strings, hissing against the air friction or being struck by a finger or pick. Click-click.
I dont know what Tony is talking about. I'm not sure that Tony does either. But he seems likeable anyway.
The last recording that I listened to of Tony's was very clean. I commented as much. Tony can actually play and sing... and he has an ear....and he writes cohesive and punchy lyrics quickly. There was great clarity and good separation between the instruments and frequencies.
It was a little brittle for me, but some people like a crisp top end.
However...the discussion is about BIAB and EQing high/low/dynamics (or something) as you pointed out. In that specific regard I think Tony is just throwing out reefer talk. Try to stay focused Gavin.
I said, "In my opinion the program is probably far too complicated for a real beginner, but doesn't go far enough to accommodate an actual musician either." Poignant reason.
Id add, thats its great for practicing musicians, if you want to get good fast, just load up any arrangement in any key, in any genre and start jamming along with it until it sounds good.
Great for songwriting sketches. Talking about mixing the BIAB tracks is a bit overkill. The parts were recorded couple of measures at a time, when you enter a 16 bar verse, prechorus bit, your getting two measures of actual recorded parts.
I could live with the eq disparity if I got the feel I want, im having same trouble with ez piano and even bass.
And you didnt have to give them a reason. You coulda said, well i need that 99 bucks back, i have to buy a pair of shoes for a wedding, and theyd have to give it back.
The recording technique described in the video is actually something very important that you must understand about mastering. Middle C on a grand piano in a studio with great acoustics and multiple full range mics will cover a much broader range on your Eq than a toy casio keyboard recorded with your phone. In fact, the toy casio will look much like the little "hump" that the guy draws in the video. Yes, this is an extreme comparison, but you can learn from it. With enough manipulation, you can Eq the grand piano to sound more like the casio so it will stand out and fill a specific range in your mix.
The fact that BIAB takes all the "thinking" out of the process and does all that for you is not necessarily a "bad" thing. You just have to accept that you're being limited by the presets built into the program. However, for a well trained ear those presets can be very annoying. Too much "technique" will squash the overall dynamic of your recording.
Speaking of Casio, i had simiar arguments with people back when the... ooohhh casio with built in drum machine and auto accompaniment came out. "Its not the tool, its the carpenter" lol
"but the thing sounds like chit"
"In the hands of a seasoned pro, it wont sound like chit"
Actually, Casio sound has come a long way over the years. Their newer "workstation" models have some great full range sounds. I just gave my Mom one a few years ago when I traded up for a Korg
Remember them double decker organs they used to sell at malls? lmao, i just had a flashback. My friends parents used to take us to the mal every saturday after Saturday night mass, i guess that was the reward for going. Used to go to Sam Goody's and get lost in the damn record shop, dreaming about buying all the albums I wanted to buy.
Then wed walk by the organ store, and to this day, I wonder did anybody EVER buy one of them things? The guy playing always seemed to be enjoying himself, but damn, who bought one. They were frickon thousands of dollars! always drew a crowd though.
Lol... I know exactly what you're talking about! Back in the 70s that was "high tech". Could you imagine the foot pedals with the sub-woofers of today lol
and if you looked at the price tag sometimes $2500 $3500 bucks, I guess it was considered an investment for the family much like a grand piano might be.
And I disntinctly remember the guy saying, this thing was putting drummers, and bass players and bands out of business... little pre mature dude...
There would always be 25-30 people standing at the door looking in though. It was 80's for me...
Shortly thereafter midi was invented, and probably shot them things down to pieces. MTV, i tell you growing up an 80's kid we saw alot of change in our day. Suddenly you had better be a keyboard player!
The recording technique described in the video is actually something very important that you must understand about mastering. Middle C on a grand piano in a studio with great acoustics and multiple full range mics will cover a much broader range on your Eq than a toy casio keyboard recorded with your phone. .
The best studio that I know of in Houston (Sugar Hill) is also the deadest sound space that I have ever been in. When you say a word with a stop...like "Stop"...the sound is gone when it leaves your mouth. I asked one of the engineers years ago why it was so dead and his response was that they dont want the room shaping the recordings at all. But prefer to add all of "the room" back with the plug-ins.
The takeaway...your assertions about the tracks in BIAB not having enough dynamic range for a "trained ear" to be able to work with effectively ...seem rhetorical, The people at Sugar Hill want the sound to be as exclusive to the instrument as possible. And there is plenty dynamic range there to work with. BIAB tracks sound recorded because they are derived from recorded tracks. There is plenty there to work with also.
I use BIAB exclusively for Piano accompaniment and solos at the moment. I sing and play guitar. I use a midi to control EZ bass, Hollywood Strings and Mai Tai. I use BIAB for piano accompaniment and solo. Over a period of years, I've recorded several tracks with a live pianist. "Marfa" was one. He always gave me a decent result, but some days he was more into it than others. $100 bucks buys competence but not necessarily dedication or a desire to give away "the good stuff" for $100.
Otoh, with BIAB I can just keep digging until I get something that I like. Then I can export to midi and edit some changes to fit the song better. I have been working on a single song since December. Still not finished. I was planning to work it up in BIAB until I got something that I liked and then send that to a pianist in Nashville as a template to re-interpret. But I like the tracks that I was able to work up from BIAB so much that I am going to use the tracks that it generated.
And I have no doubt it's now in the hands of an extraordinary composer!
Extraordinary composer?
Tony, we both know that the only evidence that exists confirms that I am nothing and nobody. A hobbyist-hack. My Distrokid and Spotify earnings alone, nail that fact to a wall and shine a light on it.
Butt... I derive hours of in-the-moment pleasure from writing and wrestling with songs. And that is worth a great deal...to me.
And I'll give myself two things;
#1 - I strive to keep a clear minded and realistic view of my songwriting hobby. #2- Notwithstanding, a hopelessly low ceiling on its' potential, I spend hours and hours trying to improve my songwriting and musical skills. Because that feeds the enjoyment that I derive from the hobby.
So..."extraordinary composer?" No way. But, nice of you to say that.
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