JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Voting Pattern Discrepancies Impossible

I'm sorry, Marty, but what you think is the wisdom of experience explaining the reality of this world is just what you have been led to believe by the tactic of convincing you that nobody can be trusted to tell the truth. Discrediting the media is central to sowing the kind of "who knows what's really going on?" confusion that lets certain people get away with lying and incompetence. It brings everyone down to the same level as those sowing this doubt. It's done on purpose with the precise aim of making you feel the way you do.

What has CNN got to do with it? I am aware of their bias. I don't count them among the reliable news sources as far as political matters are concerned. As I've said elsewhere, I don't think they deliberately lie, but their bias comes through loud and clear in what they choose to cover, who they have to analyze the news and the angles from which they approach it.

Believe what you want Gavin.

When I look at any news, I find it comforting to assume that I am either being misled or salient facts are being left out that would undercut an agenda.
Keeps me sane in a crazy world.


Is the name of that sheep Pollyanna?

But you do not believe you are being mislead about voter fraud Martin, ...even as Philadelphia's REPUBLICAN election official says there was none, even though both democrat and republican officials across the USA are saying the same thing....even as Georgia's REPUBLICAN officials are saying the same as they authorized the recount....even as the courts have thrown out all voter fraud allegations brought to them by Republicans...even as recent in depth investigations into voter fraud have come up with nothing....

Somehow they are all liars to you and Trump and his insiders are telling the truth...voter fraud is rampant...

And we are sheep because we believe those who have not spent the last years lying about almost everything.

John V

Are you like FD in that you respond to my posts without reading them or trying to understand them? Do your emotions make it impossible for you to drag your eyes over my words?

How many times do I have to say that I DO NOT KNOW?
I DID NOT VOTE IN THE STATES UNDER QUESTION OR FILL OUT THE BALLOTS.
I AM NOT AN EYE WITNESS.
I THINK THAT MAIL-IN BALLOTS ARE A GUARANTEED FIASCO, Trump aside.
I THINK THAT VOTER IDENTIFICATION SHOULD BE THE SAME AS CASHING A CHECK, Trump aside.
I THINK THAT THIS IS AN OPPRTUNITY TO TAKE A GOOD HARD LOOK AT VOTING IN SEVERAL CORRUPT CITIES Trump aside
I THINK THAT TRUMP IS A LIAR. I SAW BIDEN LIE ABOUT FRACKING ON TV. I THINK THAT HANNITY IS A PROPAGANDIST AND ALL HOUSEHOLD NAMES ON CABLE NEWS ARE PROPAGANDISTS

I think that the balloting warrants a look AND I WOULD LIKE THEM TO TAKE A GOOD HARD LOOK. Find what they may.
People such as you seem desperate for them not to. That just makes me want to see them look more.

I like exchanging ideas but if people are just going to come at me over and over again with the same tedious points that really wont ultimately matter.... after I have explained my POV several times, I'm going to start passing.

BALLOTS - EYES ON THE PRIZE

If your people stop them from looking...Yall win.
If they dont, we will see where it goes.

But you don't take a good hard look at mail in ballots, after the election, and getting results that you didnt want. If Trump won would anybody be talking about mail In ballots?

Its only Trump who didn't like this, and we know why

Minorities, handcapped, underprivileged, often can't get to polling places, many don't drive or have cars , they often don't vote. And who do minorities vote for? Democrats.

So if there's any foul play, the foul play is enabling people you know will vote for you, to vote. The record turnout favored the dems, no doubt , but votes are votes.

Martin I did read your posts and I cannot help but see it the way I do

Start from your primary premises here that
1) mail in ballots are a guaranteed fiasco===even as they have been allowed for a long long time and even as republicans and democrats alike say the elections were fine...except as you assert in in Philadelphia and Atlanta (where republican officials are on record denying voter fraud occurred)...and whatever other cities you want check you deem corrupt

2) you want a high degree of vigilance in voter identification....even as voter rolls are highly scrutinized on preparation and mail in ballots are individually numbered and controlled...fair enough to ask for a review if there is evidence of voter fraud.... but not as a general fishing expedition based on nothing....which leads to

3) this is a great chance to look at "several corrupt cities" ....conveniently located in states Trump wants to attack for voting against him...even as this was asserted before the election and even as nothing was done before the election to try and investigate and clean things up. ...still it is a fair request to look at this...except I believe it should have been done 4 years ago when Trump et all had the power and inclination to chase down their theories of voter fraud and clean things up.....except no evidence was ever found to act upon

And it is not that I dont want them to. If there is evidence...follow it and penalize if perpetrators are found guilty

I'm happy to leave things in the hands of the courts, happy to see mandated recounts, happy to see if the constitutional challenge in Penna run its course.

But I believe that it is all being driven by Trump's bruised ego, his lies, and the desire of the RNC to undermine the election results and curry favour with Trump and his base.
That is how their your motivation intersects with theirs.

And for the record, I prefer yours. They are at least more pure

That is most of the standard talking points for waving identification requirements.

If you give a random person a $1000 check and tell them that the bank is across town and they need ID to cash it...they will get it done with a relatives car or somehow.
They need to do that for voting too. If they cant, there is too much at risk to be sloppy about it.

Martin et al....I suggest we leave this discussion behind. We have all aired our views and made them known

You are right ...we are only going in circles

John

You said that I believe Trump people and not others. Therefore it appears that you dont read my posts.
And I dont have time for tedium now. But I will respond to the 1st point.

There is a place for mail in ballots such as the Armed Services and people who are truly disabled or truly indigent.
But this election exploded them because of Covid. That created the fiasco that we have now. Had Covid not happened the vast majority of votes would have been cast prior to and on election day.

All this would have likely been over except a state or 2 which would have settled the next day.
The obviousness of that makes it very resistant to arguments that dont want to acknowledge the obvious reality.

"I'm happy to leave things in the hands of the courts, happy to see mandated recounts."

Good deal. So am I. Let's see how the recounts go.

I vote that trump tells his lawyers to call off the lawsuits and stop the requests for recounts. He lost and all is his doing now is damaging the USA to soothe his damaged ego. There is no fraud. He lost because the legal ballots are being counted. Don't like mail-in voting, don't use it, but it is probably here to stay. Next time maybe they will allow them to be processed before election day and start counting them at 7am.

Or as some more eloquent than me said:

Since some of you all claim to have infallible news sources, I'd like to see if something can be verified or debunked.

Pennsylvania

Is not within the margin that requires a recount.
According to Dick Morris, who is suspect, the state legislature has to certify the vote for the electors to execute.
According to same, the state legislature is republican
and the the speaker of the house REFUSES TO CERTIFY UNLESS THE ELECTION IS AUDITED.

Can anyone verify this or dismiss it with fact?
And please, dont start talking about this and that and the other. The salient issues are:

Republican legislature must certify results or electors cannot vote. Speaker of State house refuses to do that without audit.

Here is the proof that he said it. I have no proof that it is true.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm89lUB9luo

Never mind. WAPO says that there is some fire underneath the smoke. The article is heavily biased but they are acknowledging the issue.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/11/06/state-legislatures-electoral-college-steal/

I'm not sure a house speaker can refuse to certify anything.....it is simply not their role as speaker.

But the speaker and GOP members are definitely calling for an audit as far as I can see. They are citing the constitutional challenge as their reason.

But first the constitutional challenge will be dealt with, then the call for an audit by Speaker Bryan Cutler will be front and center, then Don Jrs recent call for state legislators to ignore the vote and direct their electors to vote for The Liar in Chief will be dealt with

What Morris said....

(and do not think that I think that Morris is the go-to guy, he made terrible calls on Romney. he can be real wrong and switched parties completely which is wierd)

But his point seems to be that the power to activate the electors rests with the legislature and not the governor. So the speaker is the guy who calls things to order and formally votes them up or down.

The nice thing about this particular issue is that appears to (maybe) be either a matter of fact or not. So it is something that can actually be followed for validity.

ps...What I am reading is that mini-me and crew are not working to pervert the elector's vote. That would be DOA. They are working to force an audit and force the courts to intervene.

Martin does Chris Krebs statement that the US elections were the most secure in history and that there is no evidence of fraud carry any weight with you??

Does it change your mind about wanting recounts and audits??

Does this web site do it for you or do you think it untrustworthy??

https://www.cisa.gov/rumorcontrol

I read that and I tend to believe it.

But so many words are parsed these days. My questions are...

Accepting that statement on its face,

Does that mean safe with regard to geopolitical foes such as China and Russia? (Am sure that it does)
However does it also mean safe with regard to fraud committed by individuals who may have had schemes to falsify mail-in ballots in a warehouses somewhere or submit late ballots after they were disqualified?

Am still looking for clarification to Question #2. My wonder is...At this point how would this person know the answer to question 2?

In other news...as of last night the counts and margin in the salient states were as follows;

GA 99%-5 MIL VOTES-15,000
WI 99%-3.2 MIL VOTES-20,000
PA 99%-6.7 MILL VOTES-60,000
AZ 99%-3.3 MIL VOTES-11,000

With the exception of PA, I could easily be convinced that those margins were what you might expect for ordinary error in random elections. I DO NOT KNOW IF THEY TRULY ARE OR NOT.
Looking toward GA. Broad strokes will be if the election vote count reasonably matches the hand count. If that does not indicate an inexplicable discrepancy, then we will see how closely they look at and evaluate the mail-ins. At this point my official JPF position is that I DO NOT KNOW NUTHIN'. Am waiting and watching.

No CISA statements do not answer your "individual" fraud situation, but it definitely debunks allegations of some super computer changing outcomes (claimed by Reps) and other irregularities or concerted attempts to mess with the election

The web site I linked to covers the rumours CISA is debunking and they are confident there was no organized or significant fraud....something I believe you were looking to gain confidence in

Still leaves individual voter issues as you point out...but does that induce you to support wholesale recounts in challenged states?

Apart from "your official position" that you still know nothing for certain regarding the election

and in other news law firms dropping the Reps as clients is gathering momentum as key law firms in AZ and Penna are withdrawing from the election lawsuits launched in those states

They did succomb to public pressure...admittedly....but I expect that if they thought they were right and had a winnable case they would have stuck with it to be vindicated

The verification policies of some of the mail in ballots have always been nutz to me. So yes. I'd like to see all the close states audited in depth.

John
The following is an anecdote but it is not unusual.

I designed some people a little house a couple of years ago. Their contractor talked them into this horrible foundation system that are city standards left over from the first half of the 20th century. Basically just putting a house up on blocks in a region with no rock and terrible soils. (the Gulf Coast) I tried to talk them out of it. The City standard details were upgraded recently. I used those. They are still bullsht but better. The owner had a contractor who had a buddy in the code dept. He talked that guy in to letting him use the defunct 1930's standard foundation detail .

BUT WORSE...THE GUY IN THE CODE DEPT PHOTOSHOPPED IT ON TO MY DRAWINGS WITH MY TITLE BLOCK AND THEN UPLOADED IT INTO THE SYSTEM, GIVING ME THE FULL LIABILITY FOR IT, BUT NO NOTICE.

From my view, I have never seen municipal employees as blatantly and sloppily corrupt as they are now. So extending that and other personal encounters over the years and countless stories told me....YES, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE EVERY VOTE COUNTED AND SCRUTINIZED.

But I personally....HAVE NO EYEWITNESS KNOWLEDGE OF ANY DISPUTED BALLOTS.

As far as the lawyers in AZ...who knows what the rest of the story is there? Dont even care to speculate.

Ok fair enough.

You have a history of seeing corruption so you cannot be faulted for your assumptions.

Lets see where things go and let due process work it out.

I expect you trust "due process" as much as I do.

And I hope that all Americans do unite and realize that those who voted for Trump did so for pure reasons as did those who voted for the President Elect

From the wall street journal:

Trump,supporters cry fraud -- his lawyers, not so much

I read Trump told Geraldo Rivera he "would "do the right thing" but is waiting what the states will do on certification

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/...-hell-do-right-thing-on-election-results

Do the right thing??? Trump? Never!!!!!!!!!!

The only reason 72 million voters think there is fraud is that trump has been screaming it from the mountain top for the last 9 months. Even though government agencies and republican governors and election officials, as well as conservative think tanks have been telling him that fraud required to overturn an election has not been present in the last 20 years that they have studied it (except for that one case in 2018 that was lead by a republican supporter in 2018 -- georgia?).

So here he is, still trying to undermine voters faith in the electoral system just because his ego is bruised. And, of course, the right wing media folks are calling for legislatures to ignore the voters will and elect a pro-trump slate of electors for the electoral college. If he wanted to put the country first for the first time in his life, he would concede and let the transition begin.

Guliani just made a statement...the gist

Polling places require partisan oversight as votes are tallied in PA, per law. Right there on the spot.
Guliani has affadavits from poll workers, both rep and dem that were denied that.
Once the mail-ins are separated from the envelopes, there is no tracing them to the sender.
They have been separated.

Guliana's suit is asking that the mail-in ballots be NOT counted because they were not supervised and are voters ID is irretrievable.
They number in the hundreds of thousands. The winning margin is 60 thousand.

I know some of you hate Guliani, but that is a non-issue. The issue is the legal accuracy of what he said.

I DO NOT KNOW, but am very interested to see.

SPECULATION
If it is true and the affadavits lead to ordinary pilferers being confronted with Federal prison sentences...there will be a lot of dimes dropping.

This baseless suit has already been tried in two states. Trump's lawyers had to admit that there were "non-zero" republican poll watchers present in both cases. This one will be dismissed as well.

If there are 100's of thousands of ballots thrown out, then democracy in america is dead. I hope you are proud of your chosen heroes.

One way of looking at.

As far as already been tried in two states etc....I dont care to get into that fog. I dont know what is going on with all the suits and am not going to try to chase all the results down personally. Within the next few weeks such results will be broadly known.

If the votes were stolen or forged and part of a concerted conspiracy to steal an election, democracy is not destroyed by throwing them out. It is saved.

So let's ignore Rachel Maddow and Hannity and see what actually comes out.

It was announced that Biden got a legal victory in an MI court. Will be interesting to see what that is.

(CNN)A Michigan state judge has rejected an attempt by two poll challengers to block the certification of a Joe Biden win in Detroit, which helped carry his victory in the state. The judge also denied the request for an audit of the election.

A score for Biden.

LOL, Marty. I was so tempted to offer to tell you where to find a similar avatar. I find the sheeple label deliciously ironic, given who tend to be the ones applying it. I'm not the wide-eyed innocent you take me for. I kind of wish I was - life would be nicer

"Ironic?" So, who's the shepherd?

Japov

Yesterday , I listened to an interview with Cruz. Watched some Trump bashing on CNN. And watched Trump give his presser.
Pulling things from each...Trumps prospects to overturn look unlikely.

Trump short-circuited the global elite. They have owned Biden for 47 years. He's a lacky for them but he does have a conditional club membership.
When they get him in,

America 1st ends and the EU globalist "partnership" (new world order) is reinstated.
PAX AMERICANA returns full force and our 4 year vacation from foreign wars and foreign arguments ends and dead Americans in God forsaken places rises again as our treasury drills deeper into debt.
Border enforcement becomes a farce again and the influence of corrupt govts and Narco states in Latin America resume their northward expansion with illegal immigrants. Look for MS-13 to be on the news regularly again.
The news will become re-obsessed with a male considering themselves female and wanting free access to the little girl's restroom.
People who want the PERSONAL FREEDOM, not to be forced to bake a cake for someone for whatever reason they possess will be demonized and destroyed.
Law enforcement, not car hijackers, rapists, thieves and murderers will become the villains of Orwellian society.

All nations degrade and die or morph sooner or later. Some things are inevitable. But the immediate severity of all of this is riding with 2 senate seats in GA. I know you live in AL but go over there and cast a vote anyway.
I dont get warm fuzzies from Loffler, but she is the more conservative of the two.

If GA goes to the dems...bend over and kiss you azz and your sanity goodbye.

There's a whole pack of sheep dogs, Tony. The biggest one is a bit out of shape and has trouble going downhill, but it still seems enough to keep his flock in order. They will bleat whatever they are told to right on cue and belch whatever they are fed back out into the atmosphere, believing all the while that they are smart independent thinkers that can't be duped by biased media - because that is what they are told to think. It's dizzying

Marty, I think a parrot might be a more suitable avatar. If my sheep has to be called Pollyana, you can just be plain old Polly LOL.

One thing that I am not susceptible to is having other people's put their thoughts in my head. You should be able to see that from this forum.
Those are my own thoughts, long before Donald Trump ran for president. I've considered liberal POV's, and there is merit in some, but they are usually less practical and require someone else's work and money to implement.

My predictions for the future are rooted in the realities of the recent past. W and Obama.
It does look like Biden will be installed. Congratulations...I guess.

NO! NO! NO! I will not call "Shifty Jo B" my Commander in Chief until "I'M" satisfied this election is legit! I still can't believe Obama got elected... TWICE! Then tried to blame Trump for what they were doing all along! NO! I must maintain faith! It's a simple matter of principal! I believe Trump was ripped off and has every Constitutional right, and obligation, to challenge the outcome of this current electoral farce! IF EVERY VOTE CANNOT BE VERIFIED THEN WHAT'S THE POINT OF VOTING?!?

Gavin, the biggest difference I see between FOX and CNN is common sense versus excuses! "Common Sense" is supposed to be redundant and repetitive... THAT'S WHY IT'S COMMON!
Woof!

No one cares if "you are" satisfied, you are just one vote. It's over and it is an electoral landslide for sleepy joe, 306 to 232.


Fox has called the election for sleepy joe. I agree with your common sense remark.

No news organization can call, or verify, an election lol... they are the real "parrots" just competing for sound bites. No, Trump is still in the fight and I'm behind him!

Sure wish I could afford a flight to DC!

Tony I agree that "officially calling the election" is not the media's right or responsibility and no one who has seen history unfold would suggest the media can do so

But EVERY election gets "unofficially" called by the media...in fact it has always been a source of pride to be the first to call it

The media " called it" in 2016 and early in the AM of the next day Obama called Trump to congratulate him and Clinton also called him to concede the election to him and both wished Trump well

These are undisputable facts

Trump on the other hand took that same early morning time slot to claim massive voter fraud and will not accept anything until his legal challenges are exhausted.

It is certainly his right, and he can be as tenacious as he wants to be, but the big picture says the fat lady has sung here. That he cannot accept it is a testament to who he is. That he is still decrying voter fraud and rigged election and wants audits and recounts is a direct attack on America's electoral system. That some Reps are calling for votes to be set aside and that the Electoral College elect him is a major assault on Democracy.....not that I expect that to succeed...and the majority his lawsuits are being dismissed as fast as he is launching them. It is also a sign that even his key lawyers have withdrawn from cases. They place themselves in legal risk associating themselves with baseless claims and lies in front of the courts.

Georgia is in the middle of a recount...not because of fraud allegations, not because of political pressure by Reps, but because it was so close. But nationally DHS has called this the most secure election ever, and Georgia state officials are on record as saying no voter fraud of consequence exists

For you not to accept it is also your right....but you cannot be surprised that people will call you on it.

And why is Obama being elected twice such an anathema to you ...are you alleging his two elections were due to massive voter fraud....but then Trump was legit, and now Biden's is once again fraudulent???

Biden should want the votes and signatures scrutinized. If they aren't, the issue will not go away and will be an impediment to Biden.

He will have millions of ppl unceasingly screaming that he stole the election. The votes are his Russia

It doesn't matter what is done/not done. There are those of you who will always believe that the election was a complete fraud. It is just the way it is. Trying to overturn the will of the people by disallowing hundreds of thousands of votes "is Russia".

But don't worry, if the republicans get to keep the senate, we will have a couple of years of the hunter biden show.

Martin do you honestly believe the voter fraud allegations will go away?

Despite dropped lawsuits where the Reps backed out, lawsuts that were dismissed by the courts, and lawsuits that demonstrated total ignorance of state laws (ie Nevada's out of state votes), and lawsuits that prominant law firms have decided they want no part of, Trump, Pence, McEnany and the majority of Republican senators and party insiders are still calling fraud

There will be a substantial number of the 72 million people who voted who will continue to believe the fraud occurred and the election was rigged and I predict Trump himself will continue to say it.

It could be because the case could not be made so the "investigations" don't occur so that the allegations will not be tested by audits and recounts ....that could mean no closure for those who believe Trump and his cronies and disbelieve the court system or legal process

And latest news flash. Voter fraud DID occur in Pennsyvania. Two allegations of voter fraud will be prosecuted.

They will go away if Trump wins. But Biden may wish he had done as much as possible to diminish them. If the votes are not scrutinized, that will be proof of the steal to millions.

Biden is going to have lots of incoming on day one. From both inside and outside. If GA gets repubs senators, he is log jammed.

The house will pass legislation that will never reach him. He should do whatever he can to be transparent on the votes.

These aren't predictions. They are inevitable.

So here's the analogy then Martin

You have to stop beating your wife and kids in your drunken stupors. I know I have no evidence, and nothing will ever be proven in court, but now it is up to you to move forward on tippy toes and do everything you can to disprove my allegations

It is certainly not up to me to back down and say I lied.

Ha, ha, now we are getting down to it. You will only believe there is no fraud if trump is declared the winner! Thanks for your open mind on the subject.

Ya know I don't care if Biden doesn't pass a single bill in his entire term. At least that amoral sociopathic liar will be sent packing. Probably end up in jail. "Lock him up"!

In a delicious bit of irony, one of the Penna vote fraudsters charged appears to be a Republican who requested an absentee ballot for his dead mother ....

And the Lt Governor is having lots of fun with it, now seeking to collect a Republican reward of 1Million dollars for evidence of voter fraud anywhere in the country

https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/p...ks-1-million-reward-from-texas-official/

Quit oversimplifying what I write so that you can understand it. You're not getting it right.

I think that there was fraud. In Philadelphia there is a verifiable history of fraud. The mail-ins created a great opportunity for fraud.
The question is...was there enough to change an election? I DO NOT KNOW. But knowing human nature and something about urban democrat machines...only a fool would dismiss it.


Nothwithstanding these early court losses...

Will Trump get something to SCOTUS for a day of reckoning? I DO NOT KNOW. I lean towards doubting it BUT DO NOT KNOW.

The issue will go away if Trump wins. With Trump voters anyway. That is reality and human nature. Additionally Trump voters went largely to polling places. Mail-ins are not a factor in their voting.

But what I am certain of is that Biden is going in weak. If GA goes for 2 repubs...very very weak. If this is not reasonably investigated to a skeptical but reasonable person's satisfaction, it becomes his "Russian Hoax."

That is an easy call.

To make matters worse, one of the wild cards in the deck is...."Dont underestimate Joe's ability to f ck things up? (Who said that?)

My response to Kevin covers how I feel about things. Nothing changed about my point of view.

Now Trump is complaining about the Georgia recount -- calls it a waste of time. His reasoning: you can't match signatures anymore. Those horses have left the barn. Might as well stop it then and certify the election.

In other news, Kayleigh (I will never tell a lie) McEnany says that 1 million MAGA marchers descended on DC. Are there any trump supporters left that know what shame and decency are?

How about this guy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=digRNl-tmKI

Trump didn't start this "fraudulent election" crap, the Democrats did! The only thing that the last four years of investigation into " Russian collusion " has proven is that the Democrats have been in bed with Russia and China all along! That's why I keep saying, "The Democrats are just pissed because Trump beat them at their own game." This time around, the Democrats had to pull out "All The Stops" to beat Trump, and as a result the evidence of voter fraud is obvious! TRUMP HAS KNOWN THIS ALL ALONG! What did you think "Draining The Swamp" was going to look like? Trump's greatest adversary has been the media ALL ALONG! Clinton only conceded in 2016 because the Democrats knew, despite their cheating, Trump still beat them! Now we have an election that, despite a world wide pandemic, seems to have broken every voter turnout record in the book?!? How can any reasonable person conclude that this election has been typical of any other, so the results should be honored just the same? ESPECIALLY IF THE ONLY INFORMATION WE HAVE TO WORK WITH IS FROM THE MAIN STREAM MEDIA?!? Sorry, but at this point, if these Democrat cities aren't held accountable, these same cities that have been rioting and burning for the last year... we will be hard pressed to have another fair election in this country ever again. To accuse Trump of personal bias after the last four years of Democrat obstruction tactics and media manipulation is just absurd! If the Democrats had any integrity left at all, they would be insulted by the allegations of fraud and work to clean this mess up for themselves! But, as usual, the Democrats just want to piss on my back and tell me about the weather forecast...

Japov

Hillary Clinton rightfully won the last election. Trump should never have been president at all. You know that and I know that.
In conspiracy with Trump, the Russian's planted stories and memes on Facebook about pizza making pedophiles that got into our brains and caused you and me and millions like us to change our vote from Clinton to a vote for Trump. You know that is what you did. Do not deceive yourself.

Now at this time.... the same people who pushed that farce, both at large and here on JPF want to label you and me paranoid cultists freaks for even considering the possibility that democrat machines in urban settings may have taken possession of and perverted mail-in ballots. It begs the question...How likely is it that they would not do that?

And we are enemies of democracy for even wanting it thoroughly investigated?
I don't think that we are. I think that democracy is at risk if you dont take a look....regardless of the findings.

It is an old saying...."Consider the source."

Martin, I don't think anyone wants to label you, Japov or anyone else as paranoid cultist freaks for believing what you believe, at least I do not

I also do not believe you are enemies of democracy

I also believe that all who voted for Trump were as patriotic as those who did not. I wrote a bit of a rant on lyric board 3 called The Loser that had this line...and I firmly believe this

"That so many voted this election is a tribute to all Americans. Those who voted for Trump love their country, and are patriots. Let no one deny that. The fact they overlooked his character flaws because they believed his agenda was their agenda is honest and appropriate and should not be regarded as any flaw of their character, citizenship, or beliefs"

The impeachment proceedings are also more complex than you assert. It was not about overturning the election...that is just how it was painted by "they are trying to steal your vote" Hannity and Tucker et all...but lets say it was and leave it at that for now so as not to derail the point

Before this, in 2016, when he was running for President. Trump was already decrying voter fraud. This election he was decrying voter fraud, and he is not giving up because he is still asserting voter fraud. He also claims he has mountains of evidence that no one has yet seen. In fact what has been presented in the courts has been mostly rejected.

But I would totally support a post election, thorough investigation if that is what the US needs to heal. If there is evidence of some organized conspiracy that comes to light, I would expect JB and KH to resign and that all perpetrators be brought to justice.

But then I would also have Trump foot the bill if there is none, or face some consequence for his repeated but (if proven) false allegations. That goes for his insiders too.

IMO the chance of any findings of organized significant voter fraud is so small...but you want to be sure, and you are not willing to take the word of all the bi partisan poll workers or the DHS and only a spotlight, intense investigation will do for you.

Fair enough...but not now, not in the time available. It can't be done to anyone's satisfaction.