JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Musician Message Forum band in a box???

Hi guys:

I know this thread is getting old (like me) but I'd like to say that no matter what you use... if the song sounds good that's all that matters. Much of what is created on BIAB depends upon the experience and musicianship of the user. The same is true for any instrument, software, keyboard or kazoo... LOL!

Al David is tops in my books and I've always admired his work.

Keep grinding away at it. Nobody said songwriting or performing would be easy... or fair.

All the best to all of you,

Dave

In all do respect,
Much of what is created in band in a box depends upon the experience the user has WITH BIAB, Not so much music.

it has little to do with musicianship, but more to do with picking out what styles and sounds you want to use.

The whole idea of band in a box was to give people canned arrangments of various styles, to either write over, sing over, or play over, it's best for a practice band mate. That's where it excels.

I agree it helps understanding music, but it plays what IT plays, not what YOU play.

A glorified casio keyboard of days gone bye.

Lyric writers or people with minimal playing chops, it will seem like a dream come true, but for a musician it will frustrate you if you think you can make good demos with it

I don't feel frustrated with BIAB.

I sure as hell do. I loved it when I first got it.

it's just an awful lot of time to put into something that sounds like elevator music. (if the intent is for something commercially viable, or at least, life like.

But this notion that is all in the hands of the user is silly.

Hi Bugsey:

I'm never going to convince you that BIAB or a Casio Keyboard will sound better in the hands of an experienced and capable musician. I won't even try. I respect your opinion but I respectfully disagree. I don't use BIAB but I know roughly how it works. The initial set-up process, selection of instruments that compliment each other and then being able to play the right note or chord in exactly the right sequence seems very important to me. I will agree with you that a keyboard or BIAB or any of the other techno-computer based instruments can sound like elevator music, a complete symphony or a small jazz trio, depending on how it is used... and by whom.

This gizmo is not limited to any single genre and I believe it has it's place in the world of music. If nothing else, it allows a novice songwriter/singer to create a melody with lyrics in order to give a pro-demo artist an idea of how the song sounds in the hands of an amateur. This is a tremendous weapon in the "arsenal" of the underfunded songwriter.

One thing BIAB won't do for you: Sing! If the artist's phrasing and range are out of kilter with the song, all bets are off.

I have a sneaking feeling that during our lifetimes, there will be a version of BIAB or it's competitors that offers vocal variations capable of taking the person singing's voice and modifying it to sound like Sinatra or Dinah Shore, etc. Whether or not it can correct pitch "on the fly" or provide automatic de-essing is another subject altogether... but we have entered a marvelous age for people who want to make music and compete with the big studios.

I don't mean to imply that having all the talent and techno-resources in the world will open any doors for a new would-be artist. The music industry does not work that way. (At least not now!) Knowing who can help you get your "product" into the right hands is nearly as important as talent.

Best of luck with your music.

Dave

Ok, but you dont own the gizmo, why not listen to somebody who does?

your quote "The initial set-up process, selection of instruments that compliment each other and then being able to play the right note or chord in exactly the right sequence seems very important to me. I will agree with you that a keyboard or BIAB or any of the other techno-computer based instruments can sound like elevator music, a complete symphony or a small jazz trio, depending on how it is used... and by whom."

You dont seem to understand, there IS no playing notes, the "gizmo" plays EVERY note. The instruments chosen is the ONLY thing the user has control over, other than how loud or of tit will play in the mix.

True, its not limited to any genre, but that doesnt mean it sounds like a professional band when it plays it's arrangements.

Im not attacking the software, i just get annoyed when I read how it's all up to the user how it will sound.

No, the sound is the sound, you will never change how it sounds.

And I will look like the bad guy or the attacker if somebody (which will happen) says "does my demo sound like elevator music?'

The answer is,yes, it absolutley it does. That does not mean I make great demos, that I think im a great musician and recording artist. That does not mean that the person who posted their song with BIAB is not good, or that I cant hear if the song is good or not by the demo it makes.

All im saying is use it for what it is, a learning and writing tool. It's not a demo maker.

If you post your BIAB song and expect people to jump and down over it, your nuts.

Most people will find it acceptable enough to listen to. The only thing they will focus on is the singer and whatever you add over it.

Yes, it wont sing for you. even if it did, it wouldnt change the equation.

Watch how this guy is using it.

he's playing his guitar live over the boxed arrangement.

He simply typed in the chords.

So while his guitar is himself, and real, and uniquely him (ok, not entirely, but thats all of us)

The background arrangement does nothing but play what it's programmed by the company to play.

At least with drum machines, you can play your own parts and make the instruments compliment each other, with this you cant.

sounds like a guy playing live over a recording or a karaoke recording. But, the guy is good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8mupSxHucw

You might own BIAB, but this statement tells me that you don't know much about it.

Hey Bugsey,

For what it's worth, here are a couple songs I did with BIAB. Don't want to sound conceited but they don't sound too bad...don't sound "karaoke" to me. Perhaps you might disagree, but that's OK. We're all entitled to our thoughts and opinions. I'm playing lead guitar and singing...everything else is BIAB.

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=11642647&q=hi&newref=1

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=11919236&q=hi&newref=1

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=11709220&q=hi&newref=1

Wishing you the very best with your music! Respectfully,

Alan

They sound fine. no problems really. The first one sounds good, but here is what I mean.

That guitar riff being played, is not yours, you didnt write that. it was there in the software, so you decided to use it.

To somebody who doesnt know, it would make them think you wrote that.

Now, what if somebody else recorded a song with same chord progression and style? What would happen?

You would both have the same song.

THIS, is the limitation, it's all boxed arrangements, nothing belongs to you.

It can sound fine, especially if the singing is good on top of it, but it's as fake as a 3 dollar bill.

And the sound is not just the shapes of the instruments, but the feel.

But dont take it as a diss of your songs or ability, thats not the issue.

Actually, as I listen to the first song, it seems to me that that style was created based on this popular song (which every style is based on something popularly released)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UulEF42mlVQ

or here with that jangly rhytmm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIUwLfpufs0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWkMhCLkVOg

that style was definitly tipping it's hat to late 90's early 2000s alt rock.

Only biab, you have to use THERES, cant make your own

Hi again, Bugsey:

To me, this discussion is not about personalities. It is simply a disucssion of BIAB, and a host of other electronic, computer generated instruments or devices. I did not buy BIAB but I did try it. I thought it was a little quirky, especially when compared with the many types of Arranger Keyboards available. These are basically a keyboard with a computer and tons of instruments available to the user for "arranging" his/her composition and ultimately creating a song.

Many composers use arrangers. The rapid changes in instrument types available for selection now, and their more authentic sound makes these machines a formidable tool to have in one's corner for creating and making music.

The best anology I can give you is that while some of the features available are automatic in nature, the melody, keys and chords must be struck correctly and in sequence for the tune, composition or song to sound authentic. If one is interested in a steep learning curve, new instruments can be created and used by the owner/musician/songwriter or composer. Frank Sinatra did not lead the band, play any or all of the instruments but the band certainly enhanced his vocal.

The same can be said for BIAB or Arrangers. Also, if I remember correctly, new downloadable styles are happening all the time for BIAB and these other devices to make them more attuned to the different genres preferred by the artist, songwriter or composer.

Given a choice, and a budget sufficient to afford a full-blown studio, complete with orchestra and great demo singer(s)... the orchestra or band or trio played by live musicians would be my preferred choice. It becomes a matter of affordability.

I tend to be very prolific and if I sprung for a full-blown professionally done demo at a studio with a reputation for delivering what the major music labels are seeking, I would be broke now. Even then, getting that demo in the right hands is almost as important as having deep pockets and talent.

Never think that although we may disagree, I certainly never intend to portray you as "the bad guy" in this conversation. That's why they make Fords, Chevy's and Toyotas. It's a matter of taste, choice an affordability.

If I were an oddsmaker, I'd wager that few if any of us here will ever make any money in today's music world. The deck is stacked against us and there are too many of us waiting in the wings to be heard or discovered by people in high places.

We are here to exchange ideas and experiences. I've been at this for ten years now, have come close to monetary success as a writer several times but I'll probably never recoup my investment in time and costs. I write because I have no choice. I enjoy it... and I suspect you do to.

May success propel you to the top, my friend.

Regards,

Dave

Exactly, but sometimes these discussions turn into fights, especially when the person using the gear is working hard at it and takes it personally. I have see fights ONLINE, you could probably see them if you google the write words, between people who think it's gods gift to others who dont.

The Biab forum has alot of people who will fight you tooth and nail over how great of a demo producer BIAB is.

BIAB wasnt even made to produce demos, its original function was as an accompaniment for musicians to practice over.

There used to be a series of music tapes and cds called "music minus one" where you could buy standard blues or jazz tracks minus the instrument that you play, so that you could play your instrument with the rest of it.

I guess that got old fast because it was in depth enough to play that many different rhythms and styles.

BIAB became the goto for that. It was music minus one with some flexibility where you could change the chord progression.

It used to be horrible sounding all midi, but then it started getting better and better as far as quality instrument takes.

It has evolved into not just a songwriting tool, but a tool where you can make demos with and produce them in your house for a simple 200 buck investment.

The real tracks and new functions have gotten tremendously good, but in the end, it's still just a dead software which does not know you, does not know your style, your lyrics, your vision, it's a whirlpool of previous music.

I realize you could get a real band, and have them record your song, and it would still not be you, but it's still original and intended for your song, not for thousands of songs.

Doesnt play specific parts, if you want that you have to play it yourself, but the other instruments will not follow it.

Anyway it's a great tool for musicians, songwriters, and to make decent sounding rough demos to share on a site like this.

it;s not for commercial recordings, but folks want to think it is because its so affordable and convenient.

Anyway, no, most of us will not make a dime, but if you have any chance at all, a band in a box demo is not going to do it.

Putting a band in a box demo on itunes is kinda cheesy in my opinion. Its just not a good enough product to try and sell.

But to most people, if the song does not sound like what they hear on the radio or their favorite artists, then they wont think it is good. Sounding good=being good, unfortunately.

Bugsey...

As always, wishing you great success with your music. Keep writing and playing.

Alan

Hmm,

The old argument of samples.

I've never used BIAB, but it has a nice clean sound. And it's job ?...... simply to format and get a groove happening for a song.

If you're a musician, then it's a great musicians tool to write WITH, not in place of natural instrumentation.... that comes later if you feel the song has legs.

I use Sony acidized samples a fair bit, especially for strummed acoustic guitar parts. Why ? Because when you just want simple strummed guitar, it's perfectly in time, sounds crystal clear, and can be easily pitch shifted. And it saves OODLES of time in setting up mics and doing multiple takes. Same with sampled drums ( 8 track ) , where you can manipulate each drum mic , and save yourself the bother of hiring a drummer where maybe your song is not ready for that yet.

So IMO, BIAB is a great tool, and certainly one which in creative hands of a musician, can sound exceptional, if the whole concept of the song is good to begin with.

cheers, niteshift

PS - does BIAB have the capacity for overdubbed MIDI tracks and VST's ?

The problem with blanket statements and generalities is this:

you are really saying that anyone using samples (from whatever source) will never get a commercial sounding recording. Many folks slice and dice BIAB realtrack samples to create the sound they want, use midi, other samples, add live instruments, ... and so on and so forth.

If you want to just type in some chords, select a style and then practice along with it, then BIAB is great and easy -- and does exactly what you need it to. If you want to produce a commercial sounding recording, then you definitely have got a lot of work to do (no matter what path you take).

Here's a song that has lots of samples in it, along with live guitar and vocals: Wake Me Up when it's all over

No Kevin, I wasnt implying that samples are never used in commercial recordings, they are used all the time, maybe more than we realize.

But what most folks here are doing is not really sampling. They are using entire arrangements already made for any generic recording, and are forced to make their song fit it.

Many commercial samples would not be available for purchase, and get old fast. Once a sample becomes a hit, maybe a few times, they will be gone and something new will be needed.

Like I said, there is nothing wrong with biab, it's probably the best there is for all purposes when convenience and affordability are concerned,

I just dont feel right making people think their biab work is top shelf, it doesnt help them.

If the goal is to just be able to play your demo for friends and people on this site, there is no problems. it surely beats an out of tune acoustic guitar played with traffic noise and the tv on in the background!

The fallacy behind all this is that no one that studies music recording (that I know of) uses BIAB in the manner that you describe if they are trying to record songs. Even if they are using mostly real tracks:

-- they add shots, holds, pushes,
-- they audition tracks over and over again to get the best pieces,
-- they cut and paste samples to make things sound the way they want,
-- they add midi if they have good samplers
-- they add live parts to make it more "real"
... and so on.

No one that I have run into just gets a one shot BIAB output and uses that (except for practice or jamming). And when you use BIAB in that manner, you are just doing the same thing the samplers do. One guy manually edits all the realdrum tracks to make them more varied and "real". The quality of output is determined by the skills and patience of the user.

P.S. I am not trying to argue here or defend BIAB -- it is just that someone who is thinking about buying BIAB might see your remarks and think that you may be right (ha, ha).

Once again, I just have to ask:

What is the source of your encyclopedic knowledge of the “Demo” (and the difference between an amateur and a professionally done one)? Have you ever pitched a demo? If so, to whom? Ever recorded in a commercial studio? Played live in a band situation? Anything? I can't find any samples of your demos, here or anywhere else (while I do see quite a few comments from you about other people's songs).

And before you make the accusation: I am not being 'confrontational' or 'defensive'. It's just been my experience that people who are serious musicians can usually back it up.

Of course not, your not trying to be confrontational. You have shown your hot button is "band in the box is a mediocore demo tool" this staement drives you nuts.

And then asking for my demos, so you can then think your is superior.

As I said my samples have nothing to do with it. I dont record songs to be commercially released most of the time. I put stuff down to get a hold on the song and to see where it might go.

I am still TRYING for better recordings. My main goal is to have great songs first, nothing else matters without that.

I dont even add other instruments sometimes just guitar and drums.

The basic argument is this:

Would you charge somebody 500-1000 or more for one of your band in a box demos?

Your reason why, is my explanation between pro and amateur.

And were not even talking major artist kind of recording quality, we are talking a sold basic recording.

Dont make it into a im better than you match

No, what drives me 'nuts' are posers. You know the sort. Experts on songwriting, recording, performing, but no product to substantiate their claims.


You know, all hat; no cattle.

So no, you wouldnt charge 500 bucks for one of your demos, and nobody would pay it.

Posers?

Need I remind you of your song "jersey boys"
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=1176543&songID=12391674

First of all i suspect you have never been to nj. And to steal from one of nj's most beloved sons

Crazy Janie became Crazy Mike? LOLLLLLL

And that sax that seems to have a mind of it's own and clearly is not a part of that song...


Dude, move on to the next song, PLEASE!

See this is what u wanted to do,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu8vpwiDFsA


Your Lyrics...

Crazy Mike had a saxophone
Kept him sane when he was alone
Only thing he could understand
Was that big brass horn cradled in his hands.

Sweet Janie was his teenage queen
Prettiest girl he had ever seen
Together, they were gonna live the dream
But dreams just don't come true.

You can get out of Jersey
But you can't get it out of you
You'll always be a Jersey boy
No matter what you do.

They told us, way back in school
All about that Golden Rule
But we were dreamers, and we wanted more
Than a week's vacation at the Jersey shore

Packed our gear and we headed West
California would be the test
Went down to see the record man
With a shiny gold record in his hand.

L.A. is a fairy tale
And nothin's what it seems
The streets are cold and lonely
And paved with the broken dreams
Of Jersey boys
Jersey boys
Paved with the dreams of Jersey boys.

Accused of plagiarism by a pseudo-musician poser. Oh, the shame of it all.

Yeah, you got me, Mr. “Bugsey”. I'm busted. I've never had an original thought, and all of my songs are stolen.

Crazy Mike was my best friend back in South Jersey, where I was born and raised. And he played a mean tenor sax. Go figure. What a coincidence!

Still waiting to hear one of your stellar compositions. I imagine it will be a very long wait.

No you didnt explain out of it like that did you?

Ok dude, im done playin with you, write me a new york new york now.

But whatever you do DONT start with "start spreadin the news"

This is fair enough. I suspect this is the reason the zealots from the forum fight it, they are somehow protecting the company.

But damn, every product in the world his it's proclaimers and detractors.

I dont see people attacking somebody online for saying they think any product is not good as much as band in the box people.

it's almost as if they have stock in the product.

I doubt anybody would make a decision base don my words, if anything, they would base it on what they hear. if they are novices and mainly write lyrics, they will think it's fantastic.

if they are pro studio owners who do demos for a living, they will think it's a toy.

it's all perspective and what works for YOU.

Im just giving my opinion of it. Love it as a all around tool but got tired of recording with it.

I don't know if it is defending the "product" as much as defending the company. This company has the best customer service I have ever heard about. Heck, I even got a free upgrade one year because I was posting a bunch of songs on their site using BIAB! And just the other night the owner of the company got on the phone after hours and helped a user in a nursing home get back on the forum because he was locked out somehow. ... and there are countless more stories like that.

I think that is why you see such a spirited defense all the time. That's just it -- we love that company (ha, ha).

Still waiting for a link to your music, Mr. “Bugsey/Dude”. Post it in the MP3 forum, so everyone can witness your musical genius.

Oh, I forgot. There is none; it's only imaginary.

Let's not make it personal. We try and allow differences of opinion here -- even if one side is wrong (ha, ha).

I apologize, Kevin. I just take it personally when I'm accused of plagiarism.

There's been some good points made, but essentially BIAB is a musicians tool to make mock ups of the song in question.

In the right hands of a musician, it's brilliant. In the wrong hands it's a total disaster. One should be made to sit a musicians' test before operation.

It would almost never be used in final production, though there may be some samples which could be exported for their particular sonic feel. ( I especially like some of the drum samples )

If I used it ( which I don't, because I don't like the interface ) I would use it in such a way here

This was just a pure vocal line. Then I sat done at the piano and worked out an arrangement. Then I used that arrangement to arrange suitable samples to fit the groove, leaving most of the bass line blank. Then Mike D came along later and filled in the bass. ( not audible on this take )

If it had gone further, having all the original master tracks, it's then easy to just replace the sampled stuff, should you wish to progress with the song further.

So, the point is, that BIAB or any other music "programme" is simply a tool. It will never replace studio musicians, simply because music is not produced in that manner.

It's great for concepts and music design, but not intended for music production itself.

cheers, niteshift

PS - can anyone say that the samples presented in the example aren't "real" ? Yes they are, but you wouldn't use them in a finished piece because of their generic nature. Or is it simply a studio out take ?

Good Morning All,
Got up a bit early. While I don't use any music program myself I understand they sometimes use the High priced one, don't remember the name, in Nashville. From time to time the free Program Audiocy, (Mispelled) has been mentioned here. I imagine with practice any of the Music Programs will do a respectible job. J. Gale Kilgore, who has done a couple of demos for me, uses a program. A different one as I remember. You can listen to a song of mine he did Entitled: JUST LIKE THE DAYS under Ray's Music at http://www.geocities.ws/fiverosesmusicgroup/ One of the things I notice in much of today's music is the background music is as loud or louder than the Vocal. besides really bad playing the music is not very good. Write a hit!

Yeah, see if the music is just chord after chord with no melodic entries to be used, it can sound ok. Actually, I think your better off using something that just plays the chords(if you cant play) because it wont seem so obvious.

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12572163

ok, this is a perfect track to show the difference between a using a software with pre existing melodys and riffs, to using your own.

I did this all on a keyboard, and Im a guitar player! from drums to bass and guitar and keys all done with midi.

Does it sound great? NO. But i could not have done this with band in a box (I started out with Biab on this) because band in a box doesnt know how to play my songs.

And at least I can claim it as my own. Those hooks and melodies are mine. It's a simple arrangement, and im not a keyboard player, but it does the job.

Band in a box would have played whatever was available to it. yeah, I could overdub, but then why am I using band in a box for?

If only band in a box could play the parts that I want it to play, then it would be one of the greatest things ever invented, cause the sounds of the samples can be really good.

Bugsey,

Sounds good. I bet you could have started out with BIAB realdrums and come up with a better percussion track (and maybe the bass, too -- especially if you did the midi thing and changed the notes as required).

BIAB can play the parts the way they want them played if you are good with a keyboard and midi -- and it seems that you are. The realtracks are phrases -- but if you had melodyne (or patience to cut and paste samples), you could get them to do what you want, too. I can get the realtracks to do 80%-90% of what I want -- and that seems close enough for my purposes.

On this song, I am using 3 different realdrum tracks: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=1144009&songID=12104887 -- still not perfect, but OK for me.

ok, thats something to look into. No I havent tried real hard to get it to obey, I have since moved on to EZ drummer for drums.

And its not for lack of wanting to put the time into it, I can spend days going into midi and moving around tom toms and fils from the boxed stuff, and cutting and pasting. Im talking hours and hours or going through every measure and trying to make it (Appear) that the drummer is playing with me, not playing by himself on one end of the stereo mix.

Bit tougher to do that with chordal instruments because take piano for example, you might play a chord, then do a melody in between the chord, or you might do a blues run which ends right on the next chord, i could imagine taking unlimited amounts of time to get it to behave how I wanted.

Bass or sax a bit easier cause your dealing with one note at a time, but it's not going to be John Entwistle on bass and charlie Parker on Sax, it's going to be mr basic bass player.

Ideally, id like to have the gear and ability to play all instruments live, even drums, the work then becomes becoming a good musician, and not trying to appear like one with a daw.

Or just pay people to add their parts...

wow,

been awhile since I started this thread......it really did slide sideways.