Originally Posted by couchgrouch
that stuff about "awareness" is just another way of saying "I think therefore I am", which is just stating the obvious.

Clearly, I am an idiot and a hypocrite for not only reading a religion back-and-forth on a songwriter site, that is destroying itself with such, but I have elected to drop in and give my 2 cents. Guilty and foolish but, at least, self aware.

But Robert, you have casually dismissed, what I personally believe to be, the most profound five (or so) words in the history of Western Philosophy and thinking...written by Descartes. So I felt an uncontrollable urge to counter an unproductive and incorrect dismissal.

It is not just a statement of the obvious. It says that all that we know for sure is that... we think (actually we may DOUBT our existence) therefore we are (so, the doubt is proof that the doubt and also ourselves does exist).... And that everything beyond that comes through the senses (perception) and carries some degree of speculation and biased interpretation with it.

To an empirical and critical mind, unwilling to simply accept anything, just because someone said, someone said, it's true...that statement is the starting point (bedrock) for every thought and experience that an empirical mind has. I can't prove that God exists, but I have proof that I do and further proof, is that scalding hot water will burn and disfigure my skin. So, things build upon such realities.

And John, You have a critical mind and I enjoy reading your thoughts. QUESTION: At your age, how can you STILL arrive at being a lib-tard? "Liberal" if you prefer.

Another thing that I know...I think, therefore I am...and beyond that simple fact, this thread will go deeper and deeper into the fog and stay there. So I plan to drop this 2cents and withdraw once again.

Martin

https://soundcloud.com/sunset-poet-of-texas