JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Why Free Music?

Firstly, I don't mean that artists shouldn't be compensated, but free for users.

I tried spotify this weekend the ad version, it's a bit annoying, but i probably listened to more music this weekend than in the last year.

If you spend $1.29 or so as in itunes, you are not going to buy as much as you might like or not know you would like.

If you pay for 1000 songs, you still wont scratch the surface of music, and you will grow tired of those and need more.

Maybe the reason we listened to led zeppelin a million times back in the day, was because it was too frickon expensive to buy everything on the rack, we bought the best of the best, or at least, what the radio previewed.

On spotify for example, you could listen to a thousand songs in a week, and not repeat one.

Now, you wouldnt buy it, because you cant afford all that music, and there's something new every day. And therefore you wouldnt hear it either.

Its great for fans of music, as they can listen to anything they ever wanted, but it's also great for bands.

When I was a kid there were one or two "FREAKS" who liked The Ramones for example, nobody understood why, because nobody knew them,

However, now The Ramones are more popular than they were when they were playing, and it's due to the internet and exposure.

You dont have to buy all that music, yet you can discover a great ground breaking band like The Ramones.

"yeah but the artist doesn't make money"

Well their exposure could double, triple, quadruple, or even make them like the ramones who now enjoy world popularity.

And with spotify, the ads cover it, and maybe some of the listeners pay for premium.

I think this is the wave of the future, it's the only way people can hear whats out there, and more importantly on their own schedule, not the radios schedule.

And we all know how hard it is to get real radio play.

For an Indie, you have a better chance of getting somebody interested in your music if they can hear it, and some buzz can be generated. Expecting people to buy your home recordings, just because you are you, when they wont buy top of the notch blockbuster albums, is expecting too much.

All you can ask for is to be heard, this might be the best way.

Once you get to the point where your songs are getting millions of streams and you're only earning a royalty check of 20 bucks as compensation, you might be singing a different tune there bud. I for one, do not share your sentiment and neither do many of our songwriter peers who are getting millions of streams. This is the difference between a hobbyist, and a career professional.

The Internet provides free music just as our public libraries provide free books.

I"m with Greg!

I believe Songwriters who believe their music has real value beyond what some failed business model might slap on it will fight this kind of thinking at every turn.

One thing I don't understand is how these Failing Business Models continue to get Songwriters to work against their own best interest, I really am dumbfounded on this.
Having millions upon millions of steams of different Artists will never be enough to break any Artist away from the pack.

One thing about Radio, is that is has such a tight list, with constant rotations, your music can register in Fans minds enough to want to buy it after several repeats.
Granted the tight list can work against you if you are not on it and trying to break into it, but that's the nature of the beast.-Dana

I for one disagree with you wholeheartedly. Your not getting millions of stream, but if you were, its because it was free.

And if it were THAT good, people would buy it. If nobody was buying your music after millions of streams, they never would have or never will, and most likely it's not very good.

I have heard songwriters complain about a song of theirs being downloaded that the wrote 25 years ago. Now honestly, do you think anybody was going to buy that? They downloaded it cause it was there and they happned to see it, and figured it was free.

The real trouble people have is being heard, if the millions of streams example holds up, thats not a problem.

Im not saying it's a perfect model, probably needs to be tweaked, but Joe Songwriter would be etremely lucky to have a millions streams of his music.

Do you have music on spotify?

You can think your music has value all you like, it may or it may not, but it doesnt matter what we think. what matters is being heard, and what the public thinks.

I think alot of stuff on the radio has no value, but it's on the radio, obviously it has some value.

You have to get away from this idea of entitlement for your music. There are hundreds of thousands of artists on cdbaby, they cant all make money.

And none can make money if nobody knows they are there. Radio is impossible, if you think your music is worth waiting to get on commercial radio that's fine.

Have to ask ourselves, it it better for our music to stay parked in neutral forever, or is getting a listen the goal?

I had a single song contract offered many years ago. It was a startup company I had MAILED a cassette to. The letter head had a typo on it!

The lawyer I went to told me the royalty rate was a ripoff and that the company was probably grabbing at straws to make anything happen, so I passed.

This was 20 years ago maybe, the cassette stands on my shelf collecting dust. What was the point of turning it down?

If you have nothing to lose which most of us dont, it can only help to do it.

A song has to be heard a number of times to register in your head so that it grows on you. That is where radio can make a song by playing it many times,while on Spotify you may only listen once. By listening only once,it has no time to grow on you and you soon forget you ever heard it.I've heard songs on the radio that I didn't like the first time but after hearing it a number of times and hearing the meaning in the song, I began to like it,next thing I'm singing along with it and maybe buying it. I've experience the same thing in reading a book, often you will miss thing in the first reading that will stand out in the second reading, especially the bible.

The mind likes familiar things.You have to practice over and over what ever you are doing to become comfortable with it and therefore good at it, be it music or a sport. A new song is strange to the mind,hard to get the whole story with one listen, impossible to be comfortable with it until several listens.A song that grabs you on the first listen will be a major hit if heard many times by millions of people,especially if it speaks of a situation that people can relate to in their own lives.

Many songs on the radio are not that good but they become familiar after hearing them many times, you may never buy them but you can manage to listen without turning off the radio.We know that many songs on the radio now are there because big money puts them there, while many good songs never get played because of lack of money and clout to get them there in the first place.

Spotify may get many songs heard once but will never create a hit because once is not enough.

(Note: I'm JUST commenting on this thought.)

I think your assumption is wrong here DRS. I think there's an expectation of free these days. IE many people will take, for free, any app, mp3, video, game etc. that is offered. Many will gladly take stuff of the highest caliber made by the most talented without the slightest remorse of NOT buying. I think this is the culture that's been created.

I agree. Spotify is like the radio. You have to be blown off your seat to make you keep listening to the same song. at the same time, millions of songs can be overwhelming and you need to zero in on your likes.

I have made a playlist of stuff I want to listen again, so Im hearing stuff that I do like.

More importantly, im hearing styles, and bands that I like.

But if the song knocks your socks off, you know it, and you will listen again. Ive heard at least 10 songs I didnt know of before, and have them on my radar, and it got me interested in the group.

I try to put myself in the shoes of the listerner, when it comes to my own music.

for those who care here is some stuff I discovered this weekend alone.

Tinted Windows "cant get a read on you"

Dr Jeff and The Painkillers "Sheryl Crow"

the Kaiser Chiefs, "I Predict a Riot"

Tab the Band
"Run Away Run Away"

Barely heard of any of them, now I do know them.

That's what Spotify can do, we just need a way to get them to pay more

Yes, but with probably a million songwriters out there, what choice do we have? Gotta be heard, that is the only way.

It's an ages-old quandary. Radio spoiled the public on the idea of "free music." Despite the commercials, a sufficient number of listeners would like something they heard and be willing to buy a record. Payola was rampant back then and the big labels used it extensively to promote their "stable of stars." Those singers and songwriters whose material was able to withstand the test of time managed to survive. The songs from many of them are still around today and are played to an ever widening audience.

"Free" is a double-edged sword. The digital age ushered-in the capability of musical theft by illegal downloading and further de-valued the overall value of music. Why buy when it's free? Nearly every kid in America learned to rip the tunes they liked and create their own playlists. Often the playlists would mix the songs of several unafilliated artists... just as the public has always wanted.

Heck, I like to hear back-to-back songs from different artists instead of an entire album of one guy or gal. That capability (illegal as it was or is) really began to plummet the music industry into the doldrums. Moreso, it made the odds of success for the rising star a real mountain to climb. Competition for a slice of the musical pie is at an all-time high. Most of us will never see a dime from our efforts... and that's a sad thing.

Sure, I want my songs to be heard... but at what cost? I write with the idea that someday, I might make a little money but my overall objective is to create something that will still be around long after I'm gone.

Who knows what tomorrow's technology will bring? It's an interesting subject you've posted, DRS. Thanks. I don't think anybody has the answer to this "problem." I sure don't!

Dave

I completely understand the sentiments of wanting to be paid for your hard work and efforts. In a perfect world, we all could.

Im just trying to figure out something that serves all peoples needs in some way.

My tentative model is this laugh if you will.

A program that allows for free download of any and all music a year or more older.

Any release from this point on must be paid for. This gives a little something to everyone. People can download their arses off from older stuff, they can hear bands they never heard before, and download it, become interested in a group or artist, and then ready to buy something new.

If you really like a group chances are you wont want to wait a year before it becomes free. Especially when they go on tours to support the album.

This way the artist can get paid as well.

This on top of whatever the streaming would pay for all music old or new.

What do yall think?

Rockstar,

You're entitled to your opinion and I think I will opt out of engaging you in this conversation. By the way, I didn't say I was getting millions of streams, but I have several friends and people I work with, who are. You ask if I have music on spotify....I don't know, I haven't bothered to look.

Good luck buddy. Since you're such an advocate for music being free, let me know how far giving your music out for free gets you.

Peace

Ask your doctor if Free Music™ is right for you

Humm,
I made out my Christmas list yesterday. Gave it to my wife. Now she asked me if I was nice! I said of course. Would I lie to you (her). This year finally I am ordering the MEMORIES Grand Old Opery Stars of the 50's DVD'S. There are 12 of them. These recordings have been avaliable for several years first on Video Tape and now DVD. SO, to answer the question who would buy 25 year old recordings, here is your answer. They are avaliable in the http://www.COUNTRYMUSICGREATS.com Catalog.

The laws of supply and demand and econ 101 apply to music too. Consumers will certainly jump on free or cheap stuff (that's why our jobs have been heading to China for 40 years). But at some point, the manufacturers of the stuff (songs in this case) realize that they cannot afford to sell their product at a loss, and therefore exit the business. So there is no more product being made.

As far as touring and making money is concerned, most people lose money on tours (except for the top stars of course).

Musicians are told that there is no money in selling your music but you can play live and make up for it.

Musicians are also told that there is no money to pay you to play live, but you can sell your stuff at the gig.

Most musicians end up not selling their music and not being paid much to play live.

One in ten thousand musicians hits the big time and makes a few bucks.

Don't quit your day job.

I can at very least, promise that you and I will still not be selling [naughty word removed]!!!

I didnt mean to make it an argument, but I do get peeved when some folks who have no horse in the race complain like their pensions count on it.

I dont know your situation. But music IS free right now, just trying to minimize the damage.

It's a damn good thing that DRS isn't in charge of copyright law. Everything free after a year of being available? That's insane. Exactly how do you pay for food, clothing, a home, and health doing that? How about a vacation once in a while?

I'm on Spotify, but the amount of money I make from them amounts to about $15 a month. It's incredibly low for all those streams. Especially from stream rates of about $0.007 a stream. F their discounted royalty rate. Time for them to pay the full amount without the discount.

That's how things get better, remove the "temporary" discounted royalty rate and have them fix their busted business model if they can't afford it.

BTW - Spotify does not make it easy to become a connected fan. They don't provide links to official websites. They don't allow links for bands to sell merch. They don't allow direct links for signing up on an artist's email list. They don't have links directly to things like Amazon or iTunes for direct purchase of a CD or digital album. There's at least 5 more things they could do to make it easier to interact directly from listener to artist and help the band make more money in the process. They don't do that.

While it might be good for the listener, it's absolute hell for the artist.

Old folks are always looking for stuff on cassette or dvd. LOL

They dont know all about the net.

If they were online all the time, and could steal it, they probably would, cause when folks do steal it, it doesnt say
HELLO YOU ARE STEALING THIS...

But enjoy your stuff, if it puts a smile on ya thats all that matters.

Music has been getting lifted, since it first was made. Bootlegs were made, and it has been copied on to cassette from vinyl since technology allowed it.

There used to be a record store nearby who had every record around. People would go and ask for whatever songs they wanted on cassette, and he would charge like 5 bucks for it.

This was a legit shop too!

But music keeps going, some say stronger than ever. I disagree with the quality of it, but I might be an ole fart.

The same way you pay for food and clothing now.

Are you saying you currently sell enough records to live off?

If you are, you are doing it in a time period where people can steal all they like. So it hasnt hurt you.

As I said, people will steal anyway, always have and always will.

Have to adapt to change.

P.S. it's good for the seller too, as I pointed out, you have a chance to be heard on spotify, try getting even 100 streams from a private website.

You can't get enough people there.

Plenty of folks give their stuff away and still aren't heard. Free is just a crummy business model!

Free from the songwriters website, probably wont even get many taking it for free.

first off the sound has to be competitive to other artists, 99.9% of the time it's not.

But take soundclick for an example, when people offer their song as a free download after providing a link, how often do you take it?

And if you take it, how many times do you listen to it again?

Do you get groupies from your soundlick link?

The music has to be in the same place all pother music is, otherwise it looks like a novelty item.

Most people wont even take a free download, they will only take something they find and like, not something handed to them.

cdbaby likes spotify.

http://members.cdbaby.com/get-on-spotify.aspx

Performance royalties are a dying income stream. The system was designed for a time when radio was king and playlists were tightly managed. For royalties to be worthwhile, you either need a runaway hit that gets lots of spins (Adele, for example), or a deeply respected back catalog (Dylan, Led Zeppelin) that gets lots of spins.

I think a lot of artists are simply not being honest with themselves. The reason they're not selling is because they're not working to build an audience that cares about what they do. It's easier to be angry about thieves than do the REALLY hard work to build an audience.

Forget royalties and get your 5000 fans first.

I agree completely. Album sales have never been the main source of money, it's playing live.

All this really is is trying to convert fans by reaching them online, it's an extension of playing live.

Your right, people want to write a song, have someone else record and perform it, and sit back and watch the profits roll in.

Getting fans is what it's all about.

Im working on an album, but im going to play live and do covers as well, if a place like spotify can help get fans, thats what i will do.

I dont expect to make much on itunes from it though.

Seems to be a touchy subject though, wont mention it again.

Oh no, to the contrary, album sales are still a huge source of income. The margins are being eaten by digital options and piracy, but it's still a significant income stream.

I would argue that the market for live performance is limited to artists who can perform live and audiences that go to such shows. I have no proof, but I'll bet it's easier to convince someone to buy an album than go to a show. I mean, how many band t-shirts does a fan need? They can't ALL be superfans.



There's nothing wrong with that, though. The star machine still needs raw material. I think that's a separate issue from the royalties question.

The fact that I work hard and care about "dying" methods of income does not change the fact that these businesses are building companies on flawed fundamentals.

DRS, I'm guessing you aren't well versed in business. Album and CD sales were major money makers. Live was icing on the cake. The ideology that the music is now the icing on the cake is outright moronic.

Good luck on drawing fans based off of Spotify. You're a fan of free. If you're Spotify fans are fans of free, you'll be free too. Free doesn't pay bills. In any way shape or form. In case you missed it, Spotify does absolutely nothing to make it easier to help you get a fan. No links to anything outside of Spotify and unless they really love you - they won't search for you either. The sales funnel of getting them hooked to you is missing in that equation.

It takes promotion and lots of it for music to get heard by enough masses to get somewhere. Promotion isn't free any way you slice. Recording isn't free. Distribution isn't free. Your instruments aren't free. Your travel to get to shows isn't free. Not all shows pay enough to cover your costs either. Got a band? Chances are, they aren't free either. Free as a business model is fundamentally flawed.

Anyone who chooses songwriting or playing music as a career has already proven to be a lousy businessman. So why would anyone pay any attention to anything they have to say about the music business?

That is probably one of the most misguided and/or ignorant assessments I've ever read for generalizing musicians.

to the contrary, many bands say they dont care if people download their music free, and that they wanted no part in organizations who protect the artists, they never asked for help.

And the reason being is that they make the majority of their money from live shows. If you sell tix at 100 bucks each, in a 100 k capacity place thats a million bucks for one show.

They dont care. Depends who we are talking about.

Sure theres something wrong, they are the ones crying about piracy. If they went out and got an audience, they wouldnt have to worry so much.

Are you changing your stance now?

I think your dilemna is you are trying to concoct a solid business out of music. It's not. It's a business where most people fail.

The thing about music is more music can be made.

Ever hear of the business concept "back end marketing" its something marketers have been using forever.

You ever see a sports illustrated commercial where they give away three or four different things, just to get somebody to sign up for a 19 0r 20 dollar magaine subscription?

The math doesnt add up, the free gifts cost way more than the magazine.

The reason cause once the subscription runs out, they sign up again, you have a customer for life.

If you give away your first album, you just might get them to buy the next one.

That is NOT a bad business move. Its a commonly successful one

Music is not the gas business, people dont need you, being a musician is like being a burger salesman with a burger king, and mcdonalds on both corners near you, and a fast food place on ever street.

People invest in the artist, they dont necesarily invest on the music.

But you make it sound like selling your album is a sound business idea....it's not even close.

Yes very true. No father was ever happy to hear his daughters fiance is a rock musician LOL

Its not wise, but many still try.

DRS, does a baker sue the flour mill if he can't make his business work? Which is essentially what Pandora is attempting do.

It's painfully obvious that many don't understand the selling of music. It was a huge wakeup call when I was dealing with a major label and how the business works. Having been there, it fully changed my understanding. Problem is, people that don't get the concept of selling a product are often giving in to the path of least resistance. In music that = giving it away for a hopeless cause of "Please love me and buy me in the future." With Intellectual Property, this is extremely difficult.

You're analogy of the free gifts from a subscription are so way off it's insane. Those "free" gifts were often cheap crap that cost little to nothing to make, but were presented as great value [brilliant marketing]. When they're running off copies in the millions for sports illustrated, their production costs for the magazine go to minimal as well. They're likely making at least a 30% profit off each subscriber even with the "free" gifts. Otherwise, they'd go out of business. Giving away music for free in hopes you catch a new fan, well, they already got your goods. Why not give away a free toaster instead?

Music is a unit to sell. Or in your case to give away free. The problem with the business model you are creating, is that it devalues you and everyone else who might produce equal quality product. Eventually everyone that isn't making a living off their music will hopefully quit, leaving room for those who do and value themselves, their time, their fans, and their music.

I'm starting another thread to ask a question, that I'm betting many here have never done in terms of their business of music.

LOL. If you say so!

No the sports illustrated example is a long standing teaching tool for marketers everywhere.

Nobody else knows anything, only yourself.

Back end Marketing is how you make money.

http://ezinearticles.com/?4-Reasons-Why-You-Need-Back-End-Marketing-For-Your-Business&id=1355713

poor guy literally...

http://diymusician.cdbaby.com/2012/...0-making-an-album-i-cant-even-give-away/

Jody, You must have misunderstood what I wrote. I wasn't taking a shot at businessmen like yourself trying to make a buck in the music game. I was referring to the long odds against even a great musician or songwriter making a living in the highly competitive music field. Don't take it personal. I wasn't referring to you.

Let's take a quick look at that article (note, ezine is not necessarily the best source for quality business advice).

In part 1 of 4 it says: "Do a favor to your business; start thinking how you can better serve your customers by selling more products." <-- selling more product. And this I'll agree with.

In part 2 of 4: "Your existing customers are more inclined to do more business with you than some complete strangers. They know you and have used your products or services before. This is why you should consider giving them more products, rather than to some people that you don't know. Your conversion rate will be better." <-- give stuff to current customers rather than new ones. Interesting, DRS wants to give stuff to people he doesn't know, then sell to the ones he does.

In part 3 of 4: "Offering more backend products to your existing customers will build trust with them, which enable you to provide more products to them in the future, once they have experienced success with your offering. Being a successful marketer, it is all about serving your customers better with more tailor-made products or services in a form of solution, but then it's outside of the scope of this article." <-- What are your "more backend products" if you've given your main product away? But then this is outside the scope of the author of the article.

In part 4 of 4: "Offering huge discounts via your backend products provides you a good opportunity which re-engages your previous customers. You may not realize, but inactive customers are your best prospects. Though they might not be buying from you recently, but if they purchase from you before, they are just an email or phone call away from purchasing from you again." <-- actually I agree with this, I do run specials with fans in case they don't have back catalog and want to buy. However the key word in that statement from the article is "purchase".

Unless you have huge capital to work with, giving away the product is just bad business if you don't stop and actually start charging for it. No one stays in business doing it.

I never wrote that I know everything. I'm writing that free business isn't a business at all - that's a hobby. Making money as a profit off Intellectual Property, i.e. music, is business. I will agree that many songwriters/artists are adverse to business. But when they're not familiar with a business plan and start pontificating about how a business should be run, having never done any research about it, well yeah, I'm gonna shoot holes in the theories.

Show me one musician that gave their music away for free being able to be living off it, and I'll show you a plethora musicians that have a different day job away from music because of doing that.

http://diymusician.cdbaby.com/2012/11/the-case-for-free-music/

http://diymusician.cdbaby.com/2012/...0-making-an-album-i-cant-even-give-away/

But taking your word IS sound lol.

Look dude, good luck with your music. I dont think anybody knows the path to success, plenty of blockbuster acts cant sell a second or third album so who the hell knows.

Im not a stupid individual, people have asked my advice on various things, but for music, its something im probably going to do whether or not i ever sell anything.

Thats the attitude you must posses, the a i a don a giv a shita attitude.

Cause it wont matter if you do, you cant change how things are.

Enjoy making music, thats the only guaranteed thing you can get out of it.

You're right. Don't take my word for it. I believe you should give your music away for free and keep your day job. That definitely is a plan.

With the songs I produce any compensation from digital distribution services is incidental. It is not important and I would gladly have people listen to the songs for free.

Tom

Are you mad that I wont take a complete strangers advice?

I wouldnt expect you to take mine.

Keep looking for people to sell though, wont be me however.

Good way of looking it. Without the people listening youd have nothing to even consider selling.

Music is a man-made product. It doesn't grow on trees free for the pickin'. Or does it? Oh, that's "man" as in "mankind", not gender exclusive.

John

There are probably as many songs as there are fruits to be picked off trees.

Which is the point.

If you guys think you can sell your music, more power to you.

Not sure why you need my approval

Dude. I definitely have horses in the race, so I think you can keep your promises to yourself. While you may never sell a darn thing (because you say yourself that you give everything away for free), I have records that ARE selling, in various territories throughout the world. So, I'm putting my money where my mouth is.

There are several PROFESSIONAL SONGWRITERS who ARE fighting to keep music royalties from diminishing and I am not a fan of anyone who is an advocate of taking away their livelihoods. Sorry buddy, but even if I didn't have cookies in the oven, I'd still be standing up and fighting right alongside them because this is the future of music we're talking about here. UNLESS there is a CLEAR plan where EVERYONE benefits and MUSIC can still be GIVEN AWAY, I don't see it as a good business model if companies like PANDORA and SPOTIFY can bully content creators in the name of THEIR profitable commerce. Who's side are you on? The side of creative people or the side of those who would dip their hands into the livelihoods of those who keep them in business just so they can fill their coffers?

Sir, I have no idea who you are, or if you're even a sir, but the truth of the matter is, your opinion and the opinions of those like you, are the reason career songwriters are fighting to be heard on Capitol Hill. We're fighting for the right of EVERY songwriter to make a living doing what they love to do and what gives us motivation to get out of bed in the morning.

Do you really want to destroy the landscape so that you can shape the world how you see fit?

I don't think so.

No, free music is not a right. And it is at writers' discretion to give it away for free.

Some music is free, as in the stuff which is given away as promo's. Just like those small packets of laundery detergent. Try going to the supermarket and asking for a free full bottle of detergent........ crazy thought huh ?

My own opinion is that if you think that you have to give away all your music for free, then it's not worth much.

For marketing puropses, in limited amounts that's just fine, but otherwise I'd suggest that it's not worth listening to anyway. It's just more white noise filling an already over crowded space.

cheers, niteshift