JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Traditional Christianity vs. Modern Christianity

On the subject of evolution, you might find it interesting that some folks believe that the soul itself has evolved.

Maybe at one time, we were pretty much animals, but over time we developed an inner core, and that has been evolving along with everything else.

Everything evolves. In a millions years how strong might our fingers be from typing on keyboard incessantly, or how might our brains change after being computer people for so long.

Even music evolves. It started very primative and got very complex, then it went left then it went right. and we can control how it evolves too.

Just some more heavy thoughts

Aw Humm,
Evoloution or Creatisim? Now if the facts are correct, a huge leap to be sure, God did something and Adam appeared. SO, since there was no one before Adam, waz it Creatisim or Evolution? Was Adam Created or did he Evolve???

Here's a fact you can get your teeth into. There are three important things in life. Food, Shelter and Clothing. If you have these in adbundance you are in pretty good shape! Need I say more?

I have heard the Mills of the Gods grind slowly. What do you think?

Actually, there IS evidence for this, and it was done in a lab. It's a very famous experiment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller–Urey_experiment

The chemistry is very complex, but put simply: yes, you can get organic compounds from inorganic ones under the right circumstances.

But this fact has little to do with "evolution." Evolution is a theory on the diversity of life forms -- it's not about the origins of life itself.

I'm not so sure of that myself. There's lots of evidence -- thousands and thousands of years of evidence -- that humans believed in deities that turned out to be non-existent. We don't believe in Zeus, or Thor, or Ra, or the great Thunderbird Spirit, do we? But once long ago, all three were considered very real, to be feared and worshipped.

The Scientific Method, in a nutshell: 1) examine evidence, 2) form a hypothesis based on evidence, 3) test that hypothesis. If the hypothesis holds up over multiple tests, it becomes theory until disproven.

Thousands of years of human belief in deities, perhaps thousands of them, that turned out to be non-existent. What does that evidence suggest? I think one likely hypothesis is simply that there are no deities, no gods or spirits, and that humans tend to assign supernatural agency to things they don't understand. When you think about it, this hypothesis has already been rigorously tested, with each god/gods that fail to be demonstrated as real.

Of course we're all gonna be super-embarrassed when we wake up in Valhalla after we die.

I did some checking. State creationism laws were passed during the 1980's in Arkansas and Louisiana, to force the teaching of creationism in place of evolution. In a 1987 case, Edwards v. Aquillard, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that these laws were unconstitutional because they violated the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment of the U.S. constitution. Creation science was seen to be a expression of religious belief. It was judged to be not a true science because it could never be falsified as it was firmly held as a religious belief by its adherents that no amount of contradictory physical evidence could change.
It is not like my pal to say something without knowing the facts. I however checked out with him just to satisfy my own mind and he did NOT say it was STILL illegal. He said it used to be forbidden in certain states. I picked him up wrong. So I stand corrected. He did however say that in HIS school creationism even to this day was taught alongside a toned down version of evolution based on creationism which did not resemble the true scientific facts. SO it might as well be illegal or not have been taught at all for all the good it does.

Jim:

Well, they keep trying, anyhow. This just happened this week:

Tennessee law allows creationism theory in classrooms
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/11/us-usa-education-tennessee-idUSBRE83A00720120411

Thanks Scott.....It was that very story that prompted the discussion with my pal. I did pick him up wrong but the principle of teaching creationism as fact and evolution as theory still remains....and probably will for a very long time. I cannot see any reason why the creationists are so afraid to have evolution taught. Maybe it is because it actuslly offers scientific proof that challenges or questions their age old beliefs and superstitions.

I think the heart of the matter is that faith is a sacred value that envelopes our beings and provides a moral centre and a reason to live beyond mere existence.

Do we need God and a Bible and a Sacred Koran for this? Maybe not, but you are here today because of it.

You cannot deny that this world was hugely influenced and shaped by a belief in, and search for God.

You live in a Judeo Christian culture that underpins its culture, laws, morals, rituals etc. You cannot say that all we have could happen without belief or faith.

I could say that it happened despite belief and religion rather than because of it. Many advancements, inventions and scientific developments were and are still deliberately held back because narrow minded religious folk refuse to accept change or alternative views. Do not forget the death and destruction man has caused as a direct result of these misguided beliefs. Many remote tribes have got culture and rituals and morals etc etc not to mention a zero crime rate without the trappings of any religion yet we call them uncivilised. I also am of the belief that much of the religious ideology taught and perpetuated is morally wrong and corrupt. Few if any Judeo/Christian cultures truly recognise women as equals.....and many go out of their way to thwart anything that differs from their beliefs or offers alternatives. Some religions are so afraid of independent scrutiny that they pronounce as evil and punish anything that even remotely questions their own beliefs, teachings or authority.
I have no problem other than a disagreement with believers who keep their faith to themselves and do no harm to others......BUT I have grave problems with any religion who tries to impose its will on others especially those who do not believe as they do.
As for a creation theory whilst it remains a possibility... because I cannot prove otherwise.... on the balance of evidence and my cynical skepticism it remains an improbability. A man made idea with no evidence to even remotely back it up. Whilst we Westerners pray to God and amass our wealth people starve to death in other parts of the world.

Except that these tribes do have spiritual beliefs and rituals ...

And death and economic deprivation is primarily caused not by religious folks but for political reasons based on economic control...and the only tie in is that the political element uses religion and a belief system for their own ends. So don't blame religion for the corruption of economic elites.

All the more reason to keep them separate, as our Constitution requires.

You cannot have it both ways....If you believe in love thy neighbour and all the other commandments etc then how can you let things happen and then say nothing to do with religion it is political and the two cannot mix?...that is a cop out. Religions are all too keen on poking their noses into political issues like abortion and gay marriages. But bow out when it comes to other things like people starving to death....that is plain and simple hypocrisy.

Stan,
I got a few questions for you about the evolution debate.... If humans evolved from primates, why are there still primates? Did one clam of primates say forget that! Im gonna stay hairy and live in the jungle and climb trees, let them go bald and soft! Why are we not all the same in features? Did dwarfs evolve from chimps and typical size people from apes? Do different cultures of people come from different species?

Just curious? I've had this discussion with my nephews.... My youngest questions Gods existence but believes in Santa Claus and the Easter bunny....go figure. He believes in evolution completely. I believe in evolution too but not to the extent that I don't believe in God.

I saw a documentary which told of how all dogs evolved from wolves. Totally sad to say I don't believe that....How would a wolf mating with another wolf produce anything other than a wolf?

I just think its interesting that these discussions go this far when there will never be a true answer until the day the Lord comes back. So if we are all gone before then this discussion won't matter anyway...I havent read all the posts but I hope no one is having hard feelings over this. Everyone has their opinion.

Caroline. It is fact that ALL pedigree dogs were created by man by only allowing small gene pools. He bred the dogs to the standards he wanted by selective inbreeding and over the generations they evolved into the different breeds. It is ironic that some of the guys who did this were deeply religious and did not believe in evolution whilst they actually proved the principle by their own actions.
Re man evolving from primates this goes back millions of years and it is possible that the present day primates followed a different course of evolution and possibly came from a different origin or branch of the tree. There is a theory that there were many different lines of ape-like creatures and they inter bred to form more humanlike beings....for example Homo Erectus type creatures and Homo Sapiens intermated with Neanderthals. Here is an article explaining this theory.

Jeepers Big Jim...people are complicated and driven by different emotions and needs and justifications, depending on what activity they are engaged in. Its quite normal in mankind.

So the folks who decide to go to war do not do so for religious reasons, and are not driven by God, but they are driven by greed or some other "negative"

So yeah, they'll go to church and pray, and kill the next day. And they are quite comfortable with their decisions because they can justify what they do in their own minds.

Humans ARE primates!

Christians believe in the Commandments, they just dont always follow them. We break the rules every day.

I think Caroline meant to say apes....we all know what she meant and made allowances. I am more concerned that she does not believe that dogs are descended from wolves..... which is a given.....a proven fact.....whilst believes in God which of course is a pure belief with no facts to back it up. It shows the irrationality..... and foibles of belief. That sort of sums up my reasons for rejecting religious beliefs and why I find them preposterous. There is no rationality or logic......or evidence to support them....yet people DO.

To clarify dogs didn't evolve from wolves, dogs ARE wolves.

The domestic dog has been inbred in many weird and wonderful ways to express different traits, but they are still the same species.

My point exactly. I am not perfect by any means so could never preach one thing whilst I practice the opposite. That is the main reason why I reject religion and all the hypocrisy associated with it.
I do observe similar standards to those ten commandments because I agree with them morally....not because I am told to by religious folk who reluctantly accept them.

Steve Martin wrote this great song...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wogta8alHiU

Christians have their hymns and pages,
Hava Nagila’s for the Jews,
Baptists have the rock of ages,
Atheists just sing the blues.

Romantics play Claire de Lune,
Born agains sing He is risen,
But no one ever wrote a tune,
For godless existentialism.

For Atheists,
There’s no good news,
They’ll never sing a song of faith.

For atheists,
They have a rule,
The “he” is always lowercase.
The “he” is always lowercase.

Some folks sing a Bach cantata,
Lutherans get Christmas trees,
Atheist songs add up to nada,
But they do have Sundays free.

Pentecostalists sing they sing to heaven,
Coptics have the books of scrolls,
Numerologists can count to seven,
Atheists have rock and roll.

For Atheists,
There’s no good news,
They’ll never sing a song of Faith.

In their songs,
They have a rule,
The “he” is always lowercase.
The “he” is always lowercase.

Catholics dress up for Mass,
And listen to, Gregorian chants.

Atheists just take a pass,
Watch football in their underpants.
Watch football in their underpants.

Atheists, Atheists, Atheists,
Don’t have no songs!

We're all entitled to our beliefs. Most days...I believe there has to be an intelligence to the universe--except for certain parts of New Jersey...

But seriously...organized religion is okay 'til it tries to convert me. And every religion seems to have fringe groups that take everything too literally. Are abortion clinic bombers any better than the Taliban?

To me, God and religion are two distinct, separate things.

So...I cherry pick things I believe from Buddhism, Christianity, paganism, Gnosticism, and existentialism. Most religions seem to get most of it right--and if there is a god, I think that THAT god values those of us who thirst for truth, and don't have "faith based" beliefs.

I mean, why can't "doubt" (as well as faith) lead to enlightenment? Think Larry Darrell/The Razor's Edge, here...If you really hunger for truth, believing or not believing in god is of secondary importance. So hey, hunger for truth, and let the chips fall where they may...at least then life may become a bit more of an adventure, because we are living it with an adventurous spirit.

I like Scott Campbell's comment early on; how it's simply HARDER for existentialists. That is very true. It is, very simply, much harder to find "meaning" in a godless universe, because we are left to our own accord, and have to make it all about THIS LIFE--finding meaning in in here and now, while surrounded by all the poverty and chaos and hate and all...that doesn't mean, though, that it's not worth the effort. For some, at least, it seems to be.

Scientists want to find God, somewhere in their science. They probably won't, but don't think for a second that their pursuit won't unexpectedly lead to something quite grand.

Here is one Atheist who has plenty of songs. As said before you do not need a God to know right from wrong and you do not need religion to keep you on the straight and narrow....especially when corrupt religions stray from the path.

Can't agree with you there. Christians help out in a lot of countries. Our church built and supports an orphanage in Africa. I, myself, gave a large(for me) sum of money to drill a well for drinking water in one of these countries. Not because I am so "good", but because I am Christian. I believe in what Jesus Christ taught. I am not wealthy but I could afford to share some of my savings to bring a little comfort to people in need.

"you do not need a God to know right from wrong"

This is questionable Big Jim because you say this while immersed in a Judeo Christian culture that gave you laws and morals and values handed down from the distant past through generations...right down to your parents who handed them on to you.

It's like saying "I don't need history or philosophy or religion or role models because I would have gotten here on my own"

Like it or not, you have been and continue to be influenced by the world you live in...

Then on another level, in the absence of this cultural "taming" and civilizing influence, perhaps you do not have to worry about yourself...but you'd sure have to worry about "the other guy"

In fact, the very existence of our Judeo Christian beliefs gives you the luxury of choosing not to believe

Hi John,

I think maybe you are right, insofar as you are talking about religion, and Jim is right, cuz he is talking about god. See? These two things are not interchangeable.

Like you say, John, it is hard to see that which we are, and have been immersed in. We are certainly immersed in eons upon eons of Judeo-Christian-think.

But...in a way, Jim is saying that Existentialists aren't any more sociopathic (not knowing right from wrong) than Christians, and to this I agree.

You guys aren't really talking about the same things!

I think keeping god out of a dialogue about right and wrong is a good place to start, since there can be no agreement as to whether or not god exists.

Why not talk about whether one needs religion or not to tell them the difference between right and wrong. Religions exist. Christianity exists. It is a valid entry into that dialogue.

I don't believe this.
I think there are two reasons people behave. One is the values they are taught by their parents and society which usually comes from a religious background. The fear of "Hell" or punishment. I'd say 90% or better of children are influenced by this.

The other is the fear of incarceration if they fail to obey the laws set down by the Government, Laws which are mostly following some religious belief, ie. the Ten Commandments.

Personally I think humans are no better than Chimpanzees. They will kill and eat their own. Steal from each other, Covet their neighbors belongings, including mates, And basically will save themselves before saving their neighbor. They go to war with neighboring clans and will kill them if they can. And most go through their lives just trying to stay alive as long as possible.

That said there are exceptions. And they are the ones that set up and enforce the laws that keep the rest in line. Most of those folks are probably songwriters

Want to see something funny?

My Granddaughters both belong to the Pentacostal Church.
When they told me I was curious because I had heard of it and thought I remembered my Grand Parents might have been Pentacostal.
All I could remember hearing was Pentacostals were the ones that handled serpents.

So being curious I Googled it.
To my Surprise (and I got a real laugh out of it) What came up was a Wiki article and a picture of a church service with people handling Rattlesnakes.
Then I read the caption. The Church was in a small town in Kentucky a few miles from where I was born. But the big kicker was the town. It is Lejunior Kentucky. My Grandparents lived there and My Father was Born in Lejunior, Kentucky.

Now ain't that a hoot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Snake-handling-lejunior-pentecostal-ky2.gif

Ok, I don't mean to cause anyone concern.... I just honestly have a hard time believing that if one mates with ones own kind that a different species will come out of it.

I do believe in evolution, just for the record and love to learn more and more about my curiosities. I'm not going to fault anyone for believing what they believe not do I expect to be faulted for mine.

My point is simply that yes species evolve but science has proven that the weaker of the species dies off. At least this is what I've read. Back from the dinosaurs dying off or evolving to survive as the habitats change, it's been shown that species size and appearance do change but I have yet to find anything saying that a saber toothed tiger evolved into a giraffe or a crocodile into a swan. I'm not opposed to the idea of evolution as its been proven, however, there seem to be quite a few mammals with hearts, lungs, etc. so to say that people and apes ( I'll leave the primate reference out this time) are one in the same sound a bit far fetched to me. Humans can receive a bovine heart and survive as well as receiving a human heart. Similarities are there, and similarities end as well.
The debate can go on for centuries but people will believe what they believe. That fact that I don't believe all dogs come from wolves shouldn't keep anyone up at night. The fact that I don't believe I actually do have an uncle monkey shouldn't either. I'm just one person with views I've come to but whatever means.... Doesn't really matter in the grand scheme.

I dont think you need religion or God to know right from wrong, because the law of the land is based on the same premise.

Thou shalt not steal...Steal and you go to Jail
Thou shalt not kill...Kill and you go to Jail

and people can be good people and be atheists, I know several who laugh at the idea of going to church and they are basicly good people.

It's instinctive to be good to people, our parents teach us dont be rude, dont walk away from that person, shake their hand etc, they usually dont say "god wants you to be nice" they just say "be nice"

It's just basic living.

If you kiss peoples ass, usually you get your ass kissed back.
If you are a jerk to people you will be treated like a jerk.

It's just how we interact.

To me religion and spirituality is something that teaches about later on down the road.

Caroline, animal species are categorized according to "families"

So dogs are "canines" and cats are "felines"

Wolves and foxes and jackals and coyotes dogs are examples of canines, while lions and tigers and leopards are examples of felines.

Both are of the greater "family of "mammals" and "carnivores"

What evolution suggests is that all canines share a common ancestor, but through time, these animals, because of their environment, preferred foods etc, separated into more distinct groupings, and became what we know of today as wolves, foxes, jackals and dogs. The process went on, and we get different kinds of wolves, foxes, jackals and dogs...the latter because of breeders who breed specifically for certain traits.

So giraffes cannot become cats because they are from totally different families, but each is part of a larger family, and each can be broken down a bit further...there are 9 subspecies of giraffe...each of which share a common ancestor, but because their environments differ, they eat different foods and their coloration differs.

And no, humans cannot get a bovine (cow's) heart and survive.

Ha! I'm such a blond! I was thinking swine and typed bovine!!! Sorry, must be my short attention span.....

Caroline just to give you some food for thought, You are correct about different species NOT being born if two animals mate. However that is not how evolution works. In the grand scheme of things changes are gradual, small and subtle and can take thousands if not millions of years. It is like watching a baby grow you hardly notice any growing at all on a daily basis then all of a sudden they are adults. Well imagine changes over thousands of years.
The modern domestic dog is descended from wolves and through many generations of selective inbreeding and husbandry they became the dogs we see today rather than copies of its ancestors which did not go through the process of selective breeding. It has been documented that some stray dogs have gone feral and joined packs of wild wolves and mated.
http://www.dog-names.org.uk/history-evolution-dogs.htm
We are related to apes I am sorry to break the bad news but the good news is relationship goes way way back in our family trees. I would explain it like we both have the same ancesters if you can go back far enough a very long time back possibly millions of years but apes evolved one way and our side of the tree evolved in a different way. Our DNA is between 95 and 99% identical. The exact ammount is currently under debate. Think of it this way....imagine looking at two leafs on a tree. Now they are very close together but seem unconnected to each other. To see where they originated you have to follow many different twigs and branches till you see the tree.

But John is just saying that you can't disown your genes, and your limbic brain, and your culture. John V makes a good point when he says that we are so immersed in this, that we can't see it, and have the quite ironic notion to think that "right and wrong" is something that precedes any cultural programing or genetics or ancestral memory.

It's like arguing that there is no air, simply because we can't see it.

However, it certainly feels like "right and wrong" are things we just know--that we know innately...But maybe that's a little naive, because it is impossible to be able to separate all the baggage and stuff that goes into making us who we are, in this very moment. Are we not the sum of everything we have experienced up to this point? You and Jim sound a little like you guys are "standing outside of time" looking in, with no cultural or genetic heritage that informs and permeates how you think.

I still would suggest taking "god" out of the equation, since there can be no agreement here. Why not make the dialogue simple about whether or not we need RELIGION to know the difference between right and wrong. THAT is a much more winning argument, I think.

We do not NEED religion to know right from wrong and be our moral judges. We are quite capable of organising a civilised society without any religion poking its nose in. To think that all Atheists are evil nasties just because they do not believe in God or religion is NUTS. And to think that we depend on religion to teach us or interpret right from wrong is even more nuts. When religions themselves know right from wrong and start not just preaching it but practising it then maybe they will have a case. Up until then I reserve the right to point out or criticise preposterous actions weaknesses and hypocrisy practised in the name of religion. I do not have a problem with folk who believe in God on a personal level. But I do have a problem with all the baggage attached to religion....especially indoctrination and a refusal to accept that anybody else who does not believe or do as they do could maybe be right when they are wrong.

I'm such a troublemaker...

I love your passion, Jim. I think I respond to that, as much as your logic. You do border though, sometimes, on being a kind of Bible-less bible-thumper--your passion turning sometimes into the over-zealousness that you disparage in some Christians.

I am not sure what I believe...I do think faith works for some...but for me..."doubt" works...keeps me curious, and searching...and the "more you know, the more you know you DON'T know..."

For some of us faith is HARD. I don't question the existence of god, for sport. It is the only way I can be authentically myself.

The Mills Of The Gods grind slowly but they grow exceedingly fine.

Great poem. Kinda fits the subject of the thread too.

Jim, what turned you against religion BEFORE they got involved in the abortion battle and the gay marriage battle? Those came about in the last few decades. Were you ever a supporter of faith based living?

The Salvation Army is one of the biggest charities in the world and it is a Christian church.

According to Wikipedia, the wealthiest charitable foundations in the world are much less humanitarian in their projects than religious organizations.

So, assuming there's no God, is abortion then moral?

Abortion is a difficult issue.

I certainly wouldn't want to tell a raped woman how to feel about the zygote that, by law, she had to grow to fruition.

It sure seems like a woman under those circumstances was having "her power" taken away not once, but twice. Once by the rapist, once by the law.

Evolution just means that a population of any species will have countless varitions and some will be better adapted to reproduce. Dogs didn't evolve from wolves. Dogs are wolves. Man not nature selected dogs for what you see today. And just look at the variations in dogs achieved in just a few hundred years of manipulation. Now just imagine what millions of generations will do to a species. It's enough to make a dinasaur turn into a bird. Yes we evolved. It is obvious. Does God still fit into this mystery? I think so. We are as species just emerging from the mire of igornance.

Well said.

I would say one thing different...not "does god 'fit in' to this mystery...(yes)..."...

...but that because, when we dwell for a moment, let ourselves feel some of the AWE from all this mystery and beauty and complexity--it is THAT much harder to imagine a godless universe.

Michael Z, thanks for sharing Steve Martin's brilliant wit with us.

I penned a song a Decade-ago..."Honk If You Love Atheists"...& the best verse goes...

"But I think God is Non-Denominational
He Speaks Swahili and Persian..too
& The Atheists He sent are Motivational
If they get to Heaven..It Ain't Up to You..."

Being a Deist, primarily, I used to whup Christians a lot for what the Early Church did to Galileo & other Early Scientists..& other Victims of The Inquisition. (And I'm still peeved at the Catholic Church for shielding Child-Molesting Priests for so many years, too...and for their resistance to allowing Birth Control in Impoverished 3rd World Countries...particularly in the Amazon Rain Forest Areas...)

But, for every child molesting priest, there's more-than-several Mother Theresas. Christians do a lot More Good around this planet beyond just distributing Bibles. Many risk their lives..Doing the Right Things. Some even die for it..& for them, especially, Yeah, I hope there's a Heaven.

My Math-Professor Science-Oriented Uncle is a confirmed Atheist...& nearing the end of his life span. His answer to a question I posed him when we were both younger, "What's the mathematical model of the Universe?" got me the very-poetic Answer "A Fold in Nothingness"...which to-this-day kinda REQUIRES "The Hand of God"...to my mind...still hasn't convinced him a bit. So..I hope someday my Mentor in Life'll have a Big, Pleasant Surprise waiting for him..down that Tunnel of Light.

I don't care for or about a lot of Religious Mumbo-Jumbo, I'll take the good ol' Golden Rule: "Do Unto Others as You'd Have Them Do Unto You"...which prolly came outta the King James version of the Bible...(& I, for one, kinda Hate the Ancient English in it...tho I KNOW there are Updated-Lingo Versions available.) Anyways, that slogan's about as Good as It Gets, for a Morality Template, & well-worth upholding.

"Religion" is where Ya add-in Benefits-and-Withdrawals for Good or Bad Following..of the Above Parable. But I can see where Big Jim's coming from, as far as ethics goes.

As far as Evolution goes...Mz Caroline...Science is busy these days mapping our DNA..& seeing where various Branches of Humans originated. &..seems most of it came from Africa, originally, then covered the globe. As far as Primate Skeletons go, the most-primitive forms are in some of the deepest Strata...ya just dig deeper..& Voila..there preserved life forms get earlier-&-earlier...what a Coincidence, eh?

MUCH further-back, skeletons don't even have Backbones. Theory was, they originated in Fish...to help them swim against currents..which brought food down off the land masses..even Prior to animals living on land. (I.E.--there weren't LEGS developed yet.) There were fossils of such an early fish..the Coelacanth...dating back 350 million years ago, & thought to be extinct for 65 million years. Then..in l938...a fisherman caught one...Alive..somewhere in the Indian Ocean. They've been found to number around 500 still-living-today...an Endangered Species that may die out in our lifetimes.

But...every surviving species HAS to have something "Going for it" Genetically..& Structurally--or..it ends up as Food for some other Smarter, Faster, More-Numerous Species that survives-better.

Well, Coelacanths have one of the first Backbones Mother Nature ever cooked-up. SO early it's not really a Bone...yet. It's an oil-filled-tube...that creates an early "Spine" in the critter.

Allowing it to overcome strong-ish currents. It lives at great depths...600-feet-Plus..&..has the ability to slow its metabolism Wayyy-Down..enabling it to survive in cold & oxygen depleted waters longer than many-a-predator.

&..bonewise, it shows traces of legs developing where its fins touch the ground, too... (Dolphins are supposedly descended from Dogs which returned to the water...& have vestigal hind legs, too!) Check the teeth rows in Flipper...and Yukon King...Look-Familiar???

Yep, "Only the Strong Survive"...applies both to Organisms and Religions. &..heh..Both are Still-Evolving.

Best Wishes,
Stan

What made me turn against religion.....I woke up and smelled the coffee. I saw the stupidity and hypocrisy of religions. Now we are talking about evolution well one thing for sure evolution does exist....just take a look at the various religions and the diversity of the different sects within and see how they have evolved......some of the rituals and customs and man made gobbledygook that go along with it are laughable and embarrassing..they only get away with it because it is in the name of religion..some are seriously harming. Whilst some churches DO great charitable work others do more harm than good by meddling. They want everyone to live by their rules regardless of whether we all agree or not.

Mike re abortion....This is a complicated issue BUT when put this way it becomes simple. It is up to each and every woman to make their own personal choice....nobody has the right to force a woman against her will to have a child or for that matter to have an abortion. No laws should be made preventing women from exercising their basic rights.....it is called choice and freedom.
Every month women abort a potential child...it is called a period. Up until recently certain churches refused women the right to birth control. They wanted them to have as many children as their bodies could produce. It is ironic that these decisions were made by males. In a world of freedom and equality NO man or woman has the right to make such broad decisions on behalf of all. My take is simple LET WOMEN MAKE THEIR OWN DECISIONS and give them help and support after they have made a decision even if you disagree with it. It is also ironic that anti abortionists calling themselves pro life are the very same people who carry guns, are the first to support wars and believe in capital punishment. Go figure. Abortion is a hard enough decision for any women to make without the added pressure of having some moron protesting and calling her a murderer.

Humm,
Is abortion immoral? Well I don't particulary like it. I am against abortion for abortion's sake. However the U.S. Constutition gives us the right.

However, a guitar case with a broken handle, now that is immoral! Who wants to carry a Guitar to a gig with a broken handle!

I no longer get involved in the abortion debate regarding rape, incest, and the life of the mother. I believe those situations are so small a percentage of abortion decisions that I acquiesce on them.

Jim, I appreciate your response to my last question. It seemed sort of vitrolic but wasn't too intense and I could just be reading it wrong.

On abortion, I agree it's a tough decision for a woman to make. What do we do with the women who make it and regret it? Most of the women (even the non-Christians) I've know who have had abortion felt tremendous guilt over it. I don't think all the guilt came from the Christians. I think it's inborn. I mean, even with all the "movements" in society over the last few decades, the basic difference between men and women is still the fact women have babies and men don't. It seems to me (a man) stopping the natural progression of gestation would tend to create guilt. Where would you advise them to seek peace?

You perhaps are reading it wrong.....as there is nothing more vitrolic than religion and some folk's religious views......Re abortion well......Most of the guilt women feel is caused by the stigma created by other folk's religious dogma. I myself have doubts about abortion....BUT......to quote a religious phrase....we should not judge others but leave it to God. We must help snd support even if we disgaree. In other words butt out and leave women to make their own minds up. As I said before it is a very hard decision for a woman to make...do not make it harder by being a moron and protesting or making the women feel even worse. People in glass hoses should not throw stones.

Ray nice to hear that you are a pacifist.......cause if you are against abortion then it figures that you must be dead against guns, wars and capital punishment and all other forms of violence. Heck that makes you almost a socialist LOL. Never thought I would say that. Good luck with the guitar case......BTW.... tip...carefully applied gaffa tape may solve the handle problem......Come to think of it carefully applied gaffa tape might even solve the abortion problem too if you catch my drift. Gffa has millions of uses.