JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Industry Message Forum Sending out Cd's/Demos

Is it even worth the time and expense to burn out a few cd's with about 4 songs on them and just mail them out to publishers seeking music in the genres? It sounds like most take several months to respond, not that I'm short on time, it just seems like quite a wait. Is that typical?

Sorry if this has already been covered recently.

Hey CM,

Sure, why not? It can't do any harm, just pre-arrange it with them first. Just be ready for the following replies....

Your music sucks.
You're too old and ugly.
No-one loves you.

If you can handle that, then it's all good.

cheers, niteshift

Ha-ha, Nite. I'm very sorry if those are your typical responses.lol

try the music libraries if you dont want to wait several months for publishers response.......

here is a link to them........many will let you shoot em mp3's.........in my experience they are more open and responsive than music publishers-and if they accept your songs they act as the publisher anyway.......less hassle in general in my opinion..........whatever you decide-good luck!


http://musiclibraryreport.com/




Tom

And 'Sorry we don't except unsolicited cd's'
And 'I gave the CD to the secretary to have a listen, along with 50 others''

Seriously, I suppose anything is worth a go, but I would try to make a contact first through research on the net.

An almost standard email message can be sent out to so many publishers and at least if they don’t reply, its cost nothing but time.

If they do reply, then you can move forwards.

I sent out an email to about 100 publishers and I just said that I was a songwriter, and did they accept unsolicited material.

Hopefully some will reply with a positive.

Good luck with it.

God Bless Roy and Helen

Probably not worth it. Remember that there are 10,000,000 + musical artists and songwriters with a presence on the internet. There are about 45,000 songs written each week in Nashville alone.

These companies are flooded with songs - They don't need them and they don't want them.

Tom

Daniel, I don't know whether you've been perusing the current issue of Songwriters Market, but many publishers listed are no longer in business anyway. Those who are generally require that you contact them first for permission, and it can take ages for them to get back to you.

As Tom Y. suggested, check out that music library report site. The information and reviews there are invaluable. Pick a couple of the licensing agencies that best speak to your requirements, and then have a look at their websites. Generally there are pretty comprehensive FAQ sections, or you can contact them directly with your own questions about submitting material. Some will also accept online MP3 submissions.
If they like what they hear, they'll request WAV files of the soundtracks and the instrumental versions.

Donna

CD submissions are becoming a thing of the past. Many publishers accept submissions via internet uploads (or mp3's through email attachments). Always inquire first. Most have websites for submission policies.

Yes, the Music Library Report is a good place to start. However, there's not much there for songwriters seeking publishers to shop songs to artists. Music library publishers are mainly looking for finished products for TV/film placements.

Some song publishers:
http://www.songwriteruniverse.com/publisherlist.html
http://www.songwritersresourcenetwork.com/songpublishers.html

Best, John

Thanks, John. Great links!

Donna

About the only thing you can do is if you want to send out CD's is get set up and submit to those seeking songs. It appears today no one wants to do anything that requires any work, hence a lot of people want you to send a music file over the Net. I still like to send the physical CD but no one wants to do the work it requires to listen. I am sending nothing out today because the Tip sheet I suscribed to closed down.

Who said the Music Business was easy.

Coalminer,

There have been many changes to the way publishers are doing business now. Number one, the propencity for artists to write their own material. They are now signed for one to two years as they learn the craft of writing songs and building that side of their business. They are also produced by hit writers who are providing them with catalogue of their own. They are also writing and recording for major publishing companies with extensive catalogues.

Far from the myth of "nobody wants to do the work", it is quite the contrary. They work continually developing writers and artists and screening material from thousands of sources. The truth is that most of "outside songs' are extrodinarily substandard and people who are trying to particpate in the business from the comfort of the ir living rooms are simply in no position to even know where the bar is. And there is only so many hours in the day. I challenge anyone to listen to songs all day long every day and tell me how easy it is.

Many writers are quick to judge as to what lives up to their standards and take a cursory glance at the charts and a very small amount of songs make comments about what someone does "work" on with very little knowledge of the reality of the business. It is all subjective and people that make those comments have no ability to comment on anything out side of their own opinions.

The reality is that there are thousands of songs being written nearly every day in Nashville alone. And often the people payng the money for those songs have to recoup their investment. When artists like Darius Rucker writers over 72 songs for his own CD project only to record 6 of those, and he has been a hit writer/artist in two catagories, rock/pop and country, why exactly is he going to some mail order service to find that "perfect song"?

So no, mailing anything in does absolutley not good. and it never has. Simply Another myth or Urban Legend. Throw in the preponderance of potential lawsuits, identity theft, insane people, viruses, etc. would you take anything from someone you have no knowledge of? If your job was to promote your own material and if you had worked for years to get in that position.

Not a living room business. Never has been.

MAB

You too?
Well at least I know I'm in Good company.

Thanks Marc. That's pretty much what I figured.

Do I want to move to Nasville? Hell yeah...it's just not in the works right now. Maybe someday I can get away from open mics up here and spend a week or 2 down there to check things out.

Coalminer,

I actually work with hundreds of people who do not live in Nashville, yet are having a lot of things happening. My biggest clients (I am a professional teacher and consultant for the music industry working with writers and artists) Julie Moriva, is a now retired school teacher wife and mother from Green Bay Wisconsin.She has a publishing deal with Taylor Swift's publishing company. She still lives in Wisconsin.

Frankie Ballard, an artist who is now in the top 20, got his publishing and record deal BEFORE he moved to Nashville from Kalamazoo Michigan.

It is about the PRESENCE that you have there, in addition to having to have a LOT of talent and a LOT of luck. The old saying "Must be present to win" is not as ironclad as it used to be. Now it is "Must have a presence to win."

That doesn't mean you can build a career from the comfort of your living room. You have to get in and get dirty like everyone else has to do. The problem with every single one of these "pitch services, libraries, placement services" fly by night "Give you are record deal" services is that they overpromise and underdeliver. They are the "road to Hell paved with good intentions" and is one of the most frustrating things I have to deal with in my world. Making people aware of reality.

If you can imagine that scene from the first Indiana Jones movie, "Raiders of the Lost Ark". After they have gone through the whole movie and Indy is trying to find out where the Ark is, it cuts to a scene where a guy has the crate for it on a dolly. He is wheeling it through this warehouse. As the camera pulls back there are thousands and hundreds of thousands of similar looking crates stacked to the ceiling and as far as the eyes can see.

That is what it is like. There are BILLIONS of songs. Millions of writers and artists, 30 million on the internet. So expecting to just "mail something in", spend a few hundred dollars where the real players in the game spend hundreds of thousands and millions on doing the same thing is to say the least unrealistic.

But there are things that can be done. You can become a local present in your areas. Go from the open mics, to the regular invited writers nights. Be so competent at your material and your performance that the club has to have you there. They offer your own show. Bring people in. Make the venue money. Build a fan/friend base. Do it in other places in your area. Go to other towns not far from you. Have a good viral presence and web site.
Pair up with other people so you are not doing it alone. Cowrite songs with people that are driving like you are. Do an inexpensive You Tube video to bring people to your site.

Then you can visit Nashville, New york or LA and find out what those industries are about. Just take it one step at a time. Set goals, take baby steps. And for God's sake HAVE A GOOD TIME!

If people would concentrate on making their material great first instead of worrying so much about getting it somewhere else before they know how good it is,they would make a lot more inroads. But of course that is why I have a business.

MAB

Thanks again.

How do I find out where a writer's night would be held in my area? No one is really on my local thread on this site, and out of the book that I got 2 years ago for Christmas, this is the only site that's still around doing it right.

I'm out all the time doing open mics and I always check out the local musician newspapers, but I never see any such listings. Philadelphia is about an hour 45 away, but I've been willing to go down there. Maybe now that I'm with BMI those type of things will be on their site? That's a lot of the reason I signed up with them, the fact that they'll be there tomorrow and also I was hoping for an info super-highway.

Any links you know of would be real great.

Coal Miner (Wish I knew your real name)

BMI is going to be of limited help on these things. BMI is a collection agencey for mainstream music being used in radio, television and movies. They are of very limited help in anything else and to be totally honest, I have concerns about whether they, ASCAP or SESAC are of a lot of help in anything. The way music engineers income has changed and much of what they do , primarily people that will report that are palying music in order to pay fees are drying up. It is very dificult to collect on FREE which is what most music is now.

You are going to have to look more local.

#1. The Gannett company (USA TODAY) have hundreds of the local entertainment papers Nationwide. Whey are at resturants, bars, pubs, etc. usually in a rack at the front of the venue.

Your town may be too small but you should have local happenings.

They may not be listed as "Writer's nights or open mics. They might be talent nights, poetry slams, writers events,etc. You have to look.

I was recently in New Hampshire doing a show and workshop and all the local writers told me there were none going on. I went into the local "Scene" paper and found fifteen. The resturant that we went to eat in had another one on Tuesday nights. They are out there, you have to find them.

#2. Check coffee houses, colleges, book stores. There are usually bulliten boards or local announcements.

#3. Hook up with the closest NSAI group. They are the only truely National gathering place that is in almost every major metropolitan area.

#4. Find out if there is a Just Plain Folks or www.indieconnect.com group near you. Indie connect is a growing organizations dedicated to organizing interested parties, musicians, artists, business people together. They have regular meetings. Same with Just Plain Folks.

#5. check out this site http://www.openmicatlanta.com/EventListing

It is an Atlanta based open mic/wrtier's night listing.but i have seen a section for writers nights Nationwide.

#6. Do a Google Search for listings in your area.

#7. Be prepared to travel. If you want to do this you might have to go to the mountain.


This is all very inexact but usually once you find one, you, meet people who will lead you to others. And they are out there. I have been to over 75 NSAI JPF and other wroters workshops in 35 states and they are always out there. I found one in Gettysburg PA when I was visiting the battlefield. If they are in towns that size they are everywhere. They are usualy going to be around college campuses because studenhts are always into playing music. Once you start looking you will probably find several.And at the end you might have to find a way to do your own.Find a small resturant or club and see if they have an off night.

This is all about inventing things around us.

That is how it works.

MAB

Hi coalminer. When I was living in Blair Cty. PA, I had more of a problem with the open mic than you have now being as you are in the Harrisburg metropolitan area. I'm sure you're also aware of the Millenium Music Conference as I'm sure your sister performed it in. I got invited both times I applied. I wound up taking occasional trips to Pittsburgh to do both comedy and music open mics. I did find a regular open mic in State College which had some real talent show up. I followed Ted Nugent late one night. The problem as you noted is that songwriters who could draw an audience on a regular basis are not organized to support a venue that in turn would support them. The venue's position of "show me the money" is valid in that without good talent, these open mics are poorly attended and hence not profitable for the venue. Contrast that with the Blue Bird in Nashville where you're lucky if you can get a seat on open mic night. You need to network. My previous recommendation on another thread you started stands(work the karaoke circuit with your originals) and it supports another piece of advice you received. Someone told you to make your own event. One could apply that to working with a karaoke DJ who is smart enough to recruit and encourage talented local singers to perform at their karaokes. I've been a part of such arrangements. They do work as I've seen sizable venues that have live cover bands at times exceed those live bands crowds with the karaoke crowds - and that's with the karaoke on a week night compared with the live band on the weekend. What you in effect are doing is making your own event without risking a monetary investment other than what you would have done anyway in recording your music.

With everything it all goes back to making music that is palatable to the public and makes them want to come back and suport the venue. The Bluebird is what it is because it has a capacity of 85 people, always looks full and caters to music above all. So it is going to be harder to play there. You have to bring in a healthy bottom line.

That is the key to all music. Relating to your audience.

MAB

Marc...all great stuff and thanks for the links. I've only been outta college 10yrs, so it should be no problem getting on the scene. That's pretty much what I do now. I go to Lebanon Valley College and I go to one of their open mic nights. Gettysburg is 45-1 hr away. I just was hoping to do something closer. I'd even be willing to sacrifice my $ and set something up, but no one wants to hear just me.
I'm working on this. Believe me.

Summeoyo- Pittsburgh is 3 hrs away. Not that I care, but the wife does...shucks. State College ain't none to close either. I gotta guy that does open mics in my area for cheap. Like 130 for 10-2. If we can find a place to do it, wanna get one started? I'm lost on how to set this up. I'd even fund it for a 2 dollar cover somewhere that'll get me to break even.
I just want to play, and get critiqued. I guess I'm picturing an AA type set-up but with songwriters.lol (is that wrong) Somewhere with constructive critisism and where the audience IS songwriters. Can that exist?

Coal Miner,

You need between 5-7 songwriters.Keep in mind you have to fill a 3-4 hour slot. You are not going to be able to charge a cover at first. You want to get peopel in. As your reputation grows, you can start asking for a cover. But you first have to establish what you are doing. And it needs to be consistant. You have to do it regularly to have people show up.

MAB

Marc, I've seen some class acts come and go from this area. A lot that I've never gotten the chance to talk to.
How am I going to get 1 of them to show up? They're all in it for the love of it, but their drummer.lol
I guess I should drop the 130 for a few nights. I'm a cook and have been for years only shopping for this chance. I just don't want to blow my name when it's good and every1 knows what I'm about. If slim to none showed up, I'd be assed out of a bunch of places cause every1 talks to every1.
This area is small.
Iknow it would catch on, I just never thought I'd be the kick-off.

I have bar contacts, but would this work better in a fire-hall or something like that? Cause I can pull those strings too.

Just wondering where to start

The name's Dan Miner, Marc. Check out my sister if you come back to this.(just a plug!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgDWLxs1kkg

So I don't want you to think I'm b.s.ing with the contact thing. I'm seriuos about this. It's my life.

Dan,

Thanks. I don't know where you start. But if you start with a place that has traffic that is one less thing to do. If it is your life you find a way. But I would make sure you are on your game first. People are not going to be involved if the leaeris just another mediocre wanna be. I you can inspire others people want to be around that. If you do music that people like they will come back. People will give you a first chance, blow it and you won't be back.

If your sister is a singer sounds like that is a pace to start. I don't know what the 130 is. You never start out at the top or earning anything. You develop a following and see what your market will bear. Do something well, make money for others and it comes to you. Start small and build from there.

MAB

the 130 is what I'd shell out for an open mic. That'd be my cost. That aside, I just need to do it. I just have to say, "eff it, this is me".
I've been farting around with local open mics and selling 8 song cd's. It's getting old. When I do go outta town but in PA, I'm just another name on the list. I need the next thing. Step.

When's the best time to come to Nashville? When could someone get stage time? And where? Should I contact before hand?

Dan,

Doesn't work like that in Nashville. You have about 30,000 people in line ahead of you. There are open mics which are first come first serve.About 100 people show up to play about 30 play.You can find out what nights they are on, those papers I told you about are all over and have online presenece.

There are writers nights which are invited nights. For anything you want to do , any club, any open mic there are about 100 people waiting to play for every slot availible. Except the Bluebird and there are around 5000 people for each slot.

It is all about relationships and that takes time to build. You come here and stand in line. But it is going on about 364 days a year. Again, NSAI can give you some good run downs. WE have another web site called www.musicstartshere.com that has a ton of videos on every topic including writers nights on it.

As far as the $130. What are you paying for? Find a small coffee house or resturant, find out their slow night,offer to host a night to bring a few people in. Put a few posters up.Have your sister as a featured guest,give her 30 minutes.Invite five or six of your friends to play, do three songs each.

Have a small PA, keep the volume low. Every body brings two or three friends to watch, eat something, get some coffee. You host,play first, introduce everyone, keep it moving, make it work well, keep it on time, end early. Collect business cards tell them to tell their friends.

All there is to it.

MAB

Good stuff, Marc. Thanks.

Dan. As much as I'd love to perform somewhat on a regular basis again, my current circumstances(family health situation)prohibit me from doing such. I do keep writing new material in case things would change. But I even have scarce time for that. In fact for my most recent song, Tight Fittin' www.ourstage.com/profile/summeoyo
I had to take advantage of an overnight stay at my employer's Home/office when they were on vacation in order to finish composing the music. At this point, I'd be more interested in getting working performers to cover my songs - and if they're well received by their fans, possibly licensing the songs for those artists to record.

Dan,

You might want to start your own open mic at a restaurant or bar in your town. Tell the owner that you can provide music from some of the top names in town but he only has to pay you. Name a low figure like $50 and he gets music for several hours on a slow night like Tuesday or Wednesday. Tell him you will want to be paid more when the crowd builds.

You will need a small PA and mics but not much more. I went to one once where the guy was running everything into a keyboard amp! Get some musicians to commit to coming and build gradually. If nobody else is there, you will have to play yourself. Try to get the owner to offer one free beer to anyone who sings and use that to attract talent.

Advertise on Craigslist and in music stores and anywhere else that musicians might see it.