JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum A Better Look At How Pop Music Is Made - Lady GaGa

Thanks Alek

Oooh I liked "Sad Song" is that yours? IT is I think....

Man you should take that and combo it with the dance beat and drive it... Could be GREAT for a pop song. Would take some work...

Yes I think everyone here can appreciate the difficulty and time and depth involving programming and midi and constructing music from loops and samples... I got so aggravated with it I found it easier to learn more instruments lol... But really some of the hardest things to make it do is in making be more human.

But that's also part of what alot of Pop doesn't do today. they want that cheezy 808 snare and the sounds to not be as real in many cases.

Ever hear the term "That New Sound" every few years someone is on the look out for that "New Sound" only lately it seems like it's mostly the same sound/sounds and I remember some of them from 1990 Twenty years ago already...

I am hearing songs on the radio that have so little to them.
And I can tell there was not much time spent on the crafting of anything in it especially the melody and lyrics. One beat, one pad and a bass line, an occasional quirky riff sound repeated..
Then if it's that same Roland Sound it can be quite a stale experience.
But then I remember hearing "Unwritten" for the first time
and thinking immediately what a great pop song. Great hooks man.
Great feel! Great Record!

Nice work Alek that could be a heck of a pop tune....

Thank you so much Dan, I deeply appreciate that.

I wrote that on the acoustic, naturally I could have done it all live but decided to give it a little currentness and half a chance lol by programming and re slicing the loops... After the beat and the few samples "Yeah Come On's" It's all live tracking.
It's one of my favorite bass lines that I've done on my old Fender Bass. I usually write from the heart or don't at all.
Part of the reason I have so few songs compared too so many.
Even if a song is fabricated I still put all my heart and soul into it. I think that's why people here or anywhere get hurt or defense if we say or think or assume or hint that they didn't...
Actually I don't think it, I know it

I gave up some on the melody aspect on it, played it safer and more common but really nailed it lyrically and it sings soooo easy. The words just fall into place. I get response every week from Brooklynites strangers telling me how I nailed it and they love the song.

On that "New Sound" and a "Great Record" thing.. When I was here working with my friend Mike A. He brought up that song. He was the co[producer on "Born To Run" and Bruce's manager. Now I co-produce with him lol. He said "CAR's" by Gary Neuman
I said what you like that song?
He said oh yeah. "what a great little record" that was. I said well after making a live epic like Born To Run you would think you wouldn't feel that way about that song"

He said I didn't say it was the greatest song, I said it was "a great record" A New Sound, catchy had a charm about it and a feel that was different. And put together nicely, I love that record. He also loved that Chris Issack song when it came out.

And was pushing/hinting at label friends to sign The Cars
The Cars what a great NEW SOUND and a Great Record...

The reason I use Mike A and abbreviate in these threads is while I'm not saying anything negative about anyone, especially someone who I like and admire so much. But people do run searches for there names
So you know.... lol

Hi Bill

Yes it's not cheap no matter what.. But you can get used electronic stuff pretty darn cheap these days. I remember buying the Korg M1 it was $2,500 I sold it for $50 Bucks

And software with all these plugins seem endless but for one shot you can get alot pretty cheap. beats the heck out of one keyboard for $2,500

But really Bill the other thing I wanted writers to see and consider was the track writing from the lyrical and or melody stand point.
You need ZERO equipment for that... just the ability and or knack for it.

Good thoughts
MIke

I know her songs are well crafted and well produced..They also make me want to gouge my eyes out with a rusty fork!

Great Point!
LOL You are so right Bob And that Halehandro hally hally hally handro whatever it is, makes me ill. lol

For me overall she falls under that category genre style I made up a name for... it's called "Annoyingly Catchy"

Very effective style, if you every need to get attention ANNOY someone it works nearly every time. Kids do with the classic
Nah Nah- Nah Nah Nah you know the melody.. I have heard pop songs on the radio use that exact same kiddie phrase

Back to the arguments of the first page:

There is no absolute truth in music. It is simply a form of noise. Some noise is appealing to some people; other people prefer noise of a different sort. To say that a song or genre is bad (or whatever) only means that it is bad for you. And, simply put there is nothing new. People have been chanting and banging wood sticks together around fires, since before time began. We are still using the same old chord progressions and melodies of Bach, and Mozart. And I'm sure some of their critics thought their stuff was crap too. Modern pop and dance music may not be that great either (I don't like it much), but I also think some of the Beattles stuff is just teenage crap. Its all perspective. But to think that a guy with a guitar who's crafty with a poem has more merit as a songwriter than a producer with midi instruments, sample libraries, and sequencers is mistaken.

Michael, When you start from the premise that music is simply noise, it would follow that today's pop and hip hop producers ARE the equal of John Prine and Billy Joe Shaver. If that is the premise, I'd go even further and say that the hungry baby in the playpen making a ruckus is also the equal of Prine and Shaver and even Lady Ga Ga and Jay Z.

But the premise is false. Music is more than simply noise. There is a sublime beauty in great music and even in the best of the lesser popular songs you can find some beauty and truth. I will cite your own creation, "Rest", to make that exact point.

Can you cite one of Timbaland's or Jay Z's music productions that contains even the measure of truth and beauty one might find in say, a Brian Wilson melody or a Mike Love lyric?

I'm not familiar with their work, but I am willing to give it a listen if you can point out something of theirs that meets the standard I've described.

Thanks for responding Dan. I agree with you partially. I was hoping the noise comment would stir the pot a little.... perhaps too strong of an illustration, and of course flattery will get you everywhere... but

What I think is music is more than just noise.... to me. What I consider noise doesn't move my soul like music does. But so called 'music' that I consider noise, might move someone else's soul. And round and round we go.

You and I can probably agree on a lot of great music, and we probably dislike a lot of noise. But I feel the coin is two sided.

And no, I can't provide you any examples from Jay-z and Timberland, as I don't listen to their noisy stuff! And yes, I do believe in absolute truth, but it is impossible for absolute consensus on defining that truth in regards to music/noise. All I know is what moves me, and that's what I go with. Raw emotion and rhythm, and then melody and lyrics... but that's how I like it.

Do a google search on music vs noise. There are some great discussions.

Mike

Michael, If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, then music is in the ear of the listener. I guess. I'm gonna google that music v. noise and have a look at it.

As far as the production oriented pop music of today, I don't have any ax to grind against it. It's a different generation. Different sounds.

But I do lament what I see as the passing from the scene of the songwriter who writes from the heart and not with an eye on the Billboard charts or whatever formula is currently popular with music industry movers and shakers.

Amen to that Dan.

Yes we had crap in the past and plenty of it but none of it came from The Beatles though.
As for the pop music world Dan yes it is there world, the young not ours, we had ours.

The first biggest difference about today is the entertainment/music BUSINESS has decided that they will only SHOW you, you kids today, what was the equivalent to OUR Donnie Osmonds, Oliva Newton Johns, Tina Turner etc...etc...
When I was young they showed me EVERYTHING! That's how I found out about everything. This is fact not opinion.

Good point Michael. I agree. I'm mainly a piano-based songwriter influenced by the likes of Billy Joel and Elton John, but I'm always in awe of what my producer friends can do these days. I wish I had their discipline and patience to learn and do what they do.

I just listened to Ga Ga's Bad Romance on YouTube. First thing I noticed: 330 MILLION hits already.

Second thing I noticed is the song's got a real good melody in the chorus. It could even be used in a ballad.

Third thing I noticed was the incessant, throbbing beat, which is sure to keep the dance floors crowded in clubs everywhere.

It's not hard to see why she's so popular.

Noise V music is always an interesting debate....I view it like this...... music is controlled noise and pleasing to the ear...it demonstrates varying skill levels from the persons producing the noise. For example a bunch of 3yr old kids singing nursery rhymes can be described as producing music.....it is not in the main well performed or tuneful but it is still music. We all view different music from two angles..... the performance and the quality of the composition. In the main we compare these qualities to different skill levels or benchmarks.....like what we can produce and what others can produce and how other music compares to each benchmark. We are all influenced by the music we hear in our comfort zone and what we have been brought up with and that can influence our likes and dislikes.
I can listen to a song and say well that does not compare well to what I can do or to what others can do or the benchmark expected for that style. I can also listen to a piece of music and say wow that is amazing something I could not do and not many others could do it either and it raises the benchmark. So by comparing music to these different levels we can establish in our minds where a piece of music lies in its quality. Where the difficulty comes is when people have different benchmarks and cannot appreciate just how little talent is needed or how much talent is needed to produce certain pieces of music.

Following on from what I said there is another difficulty we are faced with concerning pop music......most of us have no idea as to how much or how little the artists have contributed to the piece......we see them listed as cowriters perhaps, BUT we have no idea as to how little or how much of a contribution that was.....we also have no idea as to whether they played any of the instruments in the recording or how much they influenced the production and how much their vocals were tweaked using fx and autotune etc....so we only base our judgement on the face value of the recording.....in most cases if we actually knew how little they contributed to the whole process we could see whether or not they are as good as some people make them out to be and judge exactly the levels of their talent.
Sadly most pop buyers have no clue as to any of this and accept without question this face value of the star in question. Even more sad is that they probably do not care one way or the other if the warts and all are exposed. This makes life even more difficult for genuine talented musicians who have to compete against these pretenders.

Sub, Thanks for Sharing..tho I strongly-suspect this Vid was done more for Publicity Purposes than to reveal (deeply) How-It's-Done.

Big Jim, I respect your point-of-view (being fully-aware to all the Dues You've Paid) but..I just went to dig up ALL the Lyrics to "Telephone"..then Listen-To the Beyonce/Ga-Ga cut so What I'd Say Next had some depth to it.

JMO but the Best Pop has Very Few Words to it/So does "Telephone".
BUT..(having heard the Track took "a year" to complete it)..I'm prettysure the Authors labored long-&-hard to come up with "What's There." (Knowing it prolly took over a Mil to promote the Song over the Air.)

& "What's There" IS on the Brilliant Side..as "Commercial Songs" go...BECAUSE
1) It's aimed at TODAY's Crop of Young, Wealthy-Enough Gals who can AFFORD to Hit the Clubs AND Buy Some Bub-Bubly...
2) It's Ready-to-Mine the Ringtone Market TOO
3) GREAT Modern-Gal-ATTITUDE (She LIKES "Her Guy" but He Can WAIT..it's Par-TAY Time!)
4) Totally-DANCEABLE (AS It puts you In-The-Mood LYRICALLY)
5) & yeah, "Great Production."

I think it's pretty Impressive what a 24 year old Gal, with the UNlikely Given-Name of Steffani Germanotta HAS put-together..in the Incredibly-Competitive Neighborhood that IS L.A...

She's announced her Next CD's titled "Born This Way" comes out Feb 13th. I'm rather fond of the Lyrics that've trickled out on the Title Cut:

"I'm Beautiful in My Way
'Cause God makes No Mistakes
I'm on The Right Track, Baby
I Was Born This Way

Don't Hide Yourself In Regret
Just Be Yourself & You're Set
I'm on The Right Track, Baby
I Was Born This Way."

Yeah, SEEMS Simplistic...BUT...Says a TON to the Younger Listeners..who DO have "A Lot to Deal-With" these days. (&..keep-in-mind, Amigo..THEY're The Primary Buyers..of What We Have To Offer.) No Matter HOW We-uns Package It.

Best Wishes/Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

That sums up my point exactly......todays pop music is 90% production 9% hype/marketing and 1% song content...it does not really matter what vehicle produces this or who they get to front it. It is a manufactured package and the pop star with or without talent is hailed as a hero.

I Think ya've Skewed the Stats so ya missed my Point: UNLESS the Song SPEAKS to it's Intended Audience, the Loot WON'T be Forthcoming for ALL-The-Rest that goes into it.

Ga-Ga doesn't JUST Sing/Write/Dance/Design The Outfits/Head off to the Studio & Collaborate. She's PUT (Mostly) The WHOLE Package Together. I'd bet.

Best Wishes Again,
Stan

Do not want to argue BUT in the clip there was someone who looked to be calling the shots and providing the creative input and it wasn't gaga...I could be wrong....
I know for a fact that in most cases where they want to make a huge hit with a top star they get a top producer in to take the song to the levels required and the artist bows to their knowledge and expertise.... rarely does the artist have most of the input in this side of the biz other than maybe suggesting which producer they would like to work with. Most of these decisions are made by management and the suits.

Thanks Stan and your welcome:) I agree but it's all I could find lol

Actually I have been involved in the past directly to the situation. I've watched the programming saw the samples get loaded on the old AKAI big machine with the floppy discs
I bout one myself... instead of being hip with it... I used it to fly loads of backing vocals together on to my eight track to free up space.. pre-bouncing tricks.

The real key is to bring attention to so many songwriters here who have never sat in a room had a radio ready (for today) track come on and was told WRITE A SONG TO THIS RIGHT NOW lol

And it has to be CATCHY!!!!

I can't emphasize how important catchy is to 1- Havingf a successful song, 2- Keeping anyone from skipping to the next track....

The main reason why there is so much nonsense out is that it's ALWAYS ALWAYS been about music for the YOUNG. The ones who show it to the young don't care much about "music" and it's history. And the young only know what you show them... Normal Life Stuff..
Now the young artist learns only this and that they can be as good as there IDOL in four years times and by the age of 16.

Jim - Dancing and beauty and being hip & hop is what kids think is cool and that's all that matters to most of them. You and I have to give up Pop Music and hit the theaters or the bar lol I don't know... lol
Beauty,Dancing,Programming,Hype, is all considered a talent today, it has always been that way only popular music was able to keep a balance with it so was acting and movies. That balance is way off just like my balance

Joni Mitchell today gets a few hundred hits on you tube and goodnight folks. She doesn't even get to change her name To Queen Lady Jo Jo and make it HUGE... She's not gorgeous and sexy enough and can't dance.... She's alright for the "Radio" next to your bed where you cant see her, but what's a radio?

Oh but there is that singer songwriter market still.... yes there is so she is certainly good enough to be a Norah Jones...
Considering she devours Norah Jones good as she is. But those artist get that one hit and never really live on the charts anymore... That's the problem. Look at the chart tells the whole story.

mike,

That's basically it in a nutshell. I'm not writing songs for people like Jim or for that matter, for most of the people who haunt this message board.

If you look at the 1 million plus people who have listened to my songs via itunes, youtube, what have you, 99% of them are kids 25 and under.

I don't really give a damn if Jim likes my songs or not. It doesn't really matter to me that I'm not one of the popular guys on this board.

What matters is that I know my market, I know my peers, and I follow my dream. I know my target demographic is the youth. I won't pretend otherwise.

It's a bonus if anyone outside the targeted demographic likes what I've written and released.

Now there is alot of truth in that.... Not in all cases and I don't feel Ga Ga is the best example of that in. I'm sure she had to sit down and is smart enough to realize and said to herself... "Okay yesterday I was sitting at the piano playing some blues and jazzy chords singing traditionally, and writing pretty songs... NIce just me and the piano.

Now I want the other world the one that KIDS love and the only one the Industry really seems to be pushing on them and on everyone and everything.... I want to be Rich & Famous.
That will require me working with a producer who LIVES that world. So I will listen and do what they say, cause I'm smart
and I know how to get ahead instead of letting my ego get in my way.


Back to track writing... I'm looking for an old track now...

Absolutely Greg

That's what being a professional is all about. I know you know I understand and so does many others. Jim understands also he just won't let go

Believe me I wouldn't even think twice about ALL these considerations if I didn't do so many different things, like so many different things, and have experience with so many different things. I see it all as challenging and fun and all having it''s pluses merits and minuses. Just the approach and atmosphere of each is cool to me. That's more of why my friend Mike Appel calls me "The Hybrid"

It's hard to talk or explain about ourselves without sounding brash or egotistical blowing our own horn. You could be like
"Dude my song was done by and then played on.... "
You can NOT think about that somebody is gonna diss it. That won't help you at all... Keep that positive attitude!

I'm humbled every single day by so many things it's scary over here. But the things I say of myself are what I HEAR from others.
Not fans,who? lol but peers and people I respect for various reasons. Mike calls me s "Hybrid" I said why Mike? He said
your like a linebacker who tackles a big running back then next goes running down the field chasing the wide receiver" lol

I laughed, he said "your not supposed to play so many things so well, and then write catchy songs, both musically and lyrically and over various styles of music.. Then record it all yourself at the same time lol... Your hitting me with funk,rock, jazz, R&B
Country, Including Pop from every decade from before you were born. lol Your a Hybrid!

So what do I do? get depressed each day and pull myself out of it each night before I finally close my eyes. I KNOW when I write songs I'm not bettering myself as a musician and not learning anything new.. So I practice and teach myself 3 to 4 hours every night. And when I'm practicing on all these instruments and trying to better my editing skills and this program and that program and mixing and my ears and EQ"S and effects.... I start to go "Man I need to get my songs finished.

Then I think "what if I actually took lessons or studied instead"
Learned how to read and write music" I should of done that instead of chasing those other dreams of music business success" See it never ends... Because I'm aware and appreciative off all these things. Could be happier just being happy with one thing.
People make the labels that get put on you.... You must find your own happiness. I enjoyed every minute of the music business work and efforts as well. As long as I'm making music period.

When I'm not writing, being creative enough I get upset. I want a great song and I want a HIT song... I want EVERYTHING! I feel I'm capable of everything. Why? Not because I think so but others think so. They were strangers at one time and record industry people not just not blowing smoke.
When you get paid to do YOUR thing you are a professional
I'm glad that you are focused and don't have to deal with the kinda insanity that goes on just musically in my head? Clear focus on the path and hard work, positive attitude and perseverance. I get in my own way alot, when I overcome that someone else takes me down. Usually a label executive.

Greg - I know you are capable of reaching all your goals.
You have really started putting it together these last few years.
I know all the work that goes into it, the phone calls the "met this guy who may hook me up with this guy" And the songs have to be relevant, you cant just write "Anything you want" feel like that day...

All I know is if your successful and happy doing what you love to do then - that is GREAT!


All The Best

PS - I LOVE kids and I would like nothing more for them to love and sing along with one of my songs. What more can you say? Man isn't that enough right there?

Mike

Okay - Enough about my troubles, and subjective talk.

Lets get back on track and to a track.... I'm going to post one here, it's OLD and I should just create a new one. But I have eliminated all means of sequencing here and programming I do everything live.

Now you can track write to a live feeling song.... Writing this way actually means writing to preset music and arrangement.
Style does NOT matter. Writing to a track can be a harp and a banjo only. But from somebody else...
We do that same thing on the creative forum board, and I have done it hear in the past with a rock music only track. I'm only focusing on the style which is relevant to pop music though at this moment.

I'll post the link here and I'll make a new thread on the MP3 Board or one of the work boards....

Let me see if i can find it and load it up

Thanks for that clip, Mike! It really displays the collaboration between a writer/producer and an artist. "High" energy!

I do this from time to time when writing songs for Eurovision. It's actually quite fun. I'm programming less than playing, though. I just don't have the patience to spend hours of programming, before actually playing. But the principle is the same. Rhythm first, make it impactful, write lyrics/melody at the same time on top of it, and mix to taste.

Producing for impact is also not that easy. It takes a lot of understanding of multiband and parallel compression to reach these sounds, and very often involves sounddesign where you sample some sounds from real life and run it through a sampler. I use Ableton live for that. Interesting, but can be time consuming, or feel timeconsuming.. for a songwriter, that is.

I don't really get the criticism of this way of working. It different than playing in a band, sure. It's diffeent than writing in other genres, like country or rock, sure. But once you learn the tools, and the workaround, it can be as musically rewarding as anything IMO

Lyrics is a different talk, tho..

"PS - I LOVE kids and I would like nothing more for them to love and sing along with one of my songs. What more can you say? Man isn't that enough right there?"

I love kids too Mike....but I could not eat a whole one.

PS I would like you to post a track...I might have a stab at doing something with it.....maybe prove a point.....just to show the young kids that there is STILL life in the old dog...and they do not OWN being cool.

Mike your point about bragging about how many downloads or fans you have or money you make is a good one......discerning people like myself are not really interested in such gumph...I listen to the music and judge for myself as to the talent displayed...I make my own mind up without others influence.

Of course Greg could not care less about my opinion.....he is only interested in making it in the biz. That is his prime objective....concentrating on learning about all aspects of music and making GREAT music for discerning audiences is of no interest to him. That sounds too much like hard work.

LOL

I'm editing one now, not a kid a track.. it's an oldie and VERY repetitious that's ANOTHER challenge all in itself.

I don't think anyone's thinking the old dog doesn't still have some tricks Jim
And please don't take Greg the wrong way, he's a good guy and he works hard at his goals. It's hard to do what he's doing for LOTS of reasons. And always try to remember that even the slightest hints of negativity or belittlement at anything someone is doing that THEY really believe in is tough to take.

Even if it's not directed directly at them but even in there field or world. The superstars, they are OPEN GAME! LOL But we have to support each other here...

Remember this thread is about TRACK WRITING lets not keep poking and making comments... And remember despite what ANYONE says Greg does exactly THAT.. he does it well and he gets PAID for it.

Okay anyway remember it's hard to appear cool to the young. My tracks are OLD lol

Yes indeed thanks Carlos....

And lots of songs are based off that production. Some I can't imagine being thought up and worked on before there was that track.

"You can't ask people to go to the circus and just have fleas in the middle — you've got to have elephants and tigers."

Roger Waters, ex Pink Floyd

I would have thought that you of all people would know the answer to that......I will give you a clue...just about anybody can make it in the biz...few can make great music for discerning audiences.

I do not take the kid the wrong way he is probably a stand up regular kid...just having some fun with him......heck I have meat in the freezer older than him....so you can forgive me for having a chuckle and responding to his how many downloads do you have and write me a pop song to show how good you are? attitude.......

PS If he is put out or upset by my banter....then he better get a thick skin fast.....he will hear and see a lot worse in the big bad ole world of pop music where folk say you are wonderful and truly great one second and a minute later drop you cause you suck big time. I wish him luck...I know that in a few years when he grows up and and becomes too old for bubblegum music he will maybe start appreciating proper music more and thinking in a different way about music in general.

Ah, Big Jimmie, I loves ya, Man. (&...you & I HAVE done some Kid Market Co-s..."Let's Play With DNA" and "The Natives Are Restless Tonight"..) In the POP World, "Kids RULE"..Always-Have, Always-Will. Parties..Cars..Sex..Love..(Whatever THAT is)..BIG Sellers IF..as Sub Says.."It's CATCHY-Enough."

I know Well "MY Generation" coulda cared LESS if "Louie-Louie" was "Great Music" or not..it made us DANCE and Feel GOOD. (I feel bad at-the-moment, 'cuz yeah, that supports Your Statement, Jim, of awhile-back that "Lyrics mean NADA"...but..L-L was a GREAT "Musical Moment" (in MY slightly-above-"Musical-Childhood") because it was both "Different" and...heh.."Dirty-Enough" (Supposedly) to be Eyebrow-Raising (Especially if Our Parents Found-Out).

&, yeah, kids-today STILL LIKE Music that Pisses-You-Off..(But that doesn't make THEM any different than WE WERE way-back-when...JMO.) (&..let's give kids CREDIT for mastering More of the TOOLS that go into the PRODUCTION End of things, TOO?)

I like Greg's Attitude..(I DO pick on his Lyrics here..time-to-time..heh!)..&..JMO..it's NOT as easy to "make it" in the Music Biz as Jim thinks. Fortunately, BOTH you guys ARE making Regular Checks..so..Both you guys Know-What-Works.

Me? I'm JUST beginning to DO some Track Writing/find it's SO much-EASIER than "Lyrics-First"... Lookin' forwards to Your Track(s) Sub..had a LOT of fun with Mark Kaufman's and Mark Schuessler's last year {"Let's Take The Time", at Robert Pickens' Soundclick Site/& "You Saved Me" at Mark S's SC Site..Respectively.) (Neither are Kids-Songs, but hey, I'm Old..HAD my shot at L.A. 2 decades-ago.)

DO think the Pair that Big Jim & I did COULD sell to the Kids, however..(They're certainly Catchy-Enough)... (Doubt that Jim's gonna buy a Wild Wig, get Tattooed all-over, Wild Costumes..etc-etc..to make it a HUGE Pair of Hits..tho...)

Alas!

Best Wishes/Big Guy-Hugs..all over the place,
Stan

Stan
Your statement that Lyrics mean Nada because of Louie Louie is IMHO wrong.
The thing that made most of us listen to that song WAS the lyrics.
We were convinced they were very naughty and we would make up our own trying to figure them out. Of course we know different now. I'd be willing to bet had we been able to understand them we would not have paid much attention. Even though I think it was a pretty good lyric.
As far as production goes the song was horribly done. That's WHY you couldn't understand the lyrics.

Debates and discussions aren't meant to be taken personally. The purpose of them is to put people's thoughts, ideas, and opinions out there for learning purposes.

Jim, I like ya and I really do appreciate you as a human being. We may not see eye to eye, but that doesn't mean I couldn't spend time hangin' with ya in the future (if that scenario ever presented itself). I might even learn something from you.

I do what I do because I don't believe in giving up and I enjoy it. I love all kinds of music (I listen to a lot of music that isn't pop), but I have fun writing pop music.

The crowd I hang with in LA are very talented folk. We're just trying to make a living doing what we love to do. Ya know?

I actually go to a songwriter's potluck networking party once a month that a really good friend of mine organizes in LA. It's a lot of fun and I've met some awesome people who've played with some of the greats, had #1 hits, millions of records sold, etc...But at the end of the day, we're all telling the same jokes and have stories of our own to tell. At the end of the day, we're just people.

I think that's kind of the point of Just Plain Folks honestly. At the end of the day, no matter how successful we are, we're all just people. We come from different walks of life with different opinions, ideas, experiences, beliefs, and tastes.

In order to really get the point of Just Plain Folks ("We're all in this together"), we have to understand that when you take away all the bells and whistles, we're all human beings.

So Jim, continue being you and if you wanna continue having a little fun, go right ahead. I've got a pretty thick skin and it takes a lot to get under it. :-)

mike, thank you for the kind words. :-)

And Jim,

I apologize for saying anything that might have offended you on a personal level.

Greg I could say ditto.......Anyone here will tell you my bark is worse than my bite and I never bear grudges....I SPEAK MY MIND but will help fellow JPFs in any way I can. I love music ALL KINDS and respect anybody that loves any kind of music or tries to make music.......even boy band pop music is a start.
I have been making music as a pro singer for over forty years and with age and experience comes cynicism and being skeptical......so forgive me if I see through the hype and bull....and forgive me if I am not exactly in love with boy bands or pop tarts.....I prefer live, performance driven, music where there is no hiding place.
We probably could learn a lot from each other. Do not underestimate us old ones however.....if some of us were to ever want to make the kind of music you do.....we would give you a good run for your money. Probably in a few years when you grow out of "bubblegum music" you may want to write and play "proper music"....LOL

PS You never told us what instruments you play and what gear and software you use to record. Interested to know.

Don't worry, I love proper music too.

I love music by Zeppelin, The Doors, The Beatles, Chicago, Journey, michael jackson, Prince, Jimi Hendrix, Aerosmith, etc.

One of my best friend's dad was in the band Chicago. I remember a few years back I went to their house for New Years Eve and some of the band members from Chicago & Toto jammed together in the big living room for a couple hours, counting down to midnight. It was a lot of fun.

So much respect is definitely deserved to be given to you "old one's". :-) I will probably never grow out of writing pop music as long as that is what sells in the industry. If "REAL" music suddenly becomes mainstream again, then I will adapt and write that.

I play a little guitar, but I am primarily a lyricist. The studios I work out of vary in equipment, but all the studios I go to use either Pro-Tools or Pro-Logic.

Wow....Toto and Chicago that must have been a blast......Now you are talking......begs the question if your pals dad is a member of Chicago why DOES HE not write proper music...LOL
He must have heard enough......on a serious note kids generally do appreciate great music...but for some reason they prefer the junk music......just like they prefer junk food to tasty healthy well balanced meals using proper fresh ingredients.

Just about anyone can make it in the biz?? Are you drunk? lol

Both goals are difficult and both can take hard work, the KIND of work depends on who and what it is there doing or trying to do. Like for example if DANCING while your singing is key then it's work. And if nobodies just handing it too you early on, you'll find a tough path ahead.

But for me who has done both to a somewhat respectable degree.
It's an easier answer "making it in the music business is HARDER!

And for one very simple reason that I have explained a hundred times here... "You can ALWAYS do whatever the heck you want to musically in life" You can be as GREAT as you want to or can be. NOBODY or nothing can stop you from doing that. You can do it whenever you like, do whatever you like, have to compete with absolutely no one, never have to take criticism from strangers or LISTEN to anyone. You can never FAIL or feel like a failure.
Your only up against your self.....

The ball is always in your hands... and your never challenged to lose, or to score.
Songwriters/Musicians/Artists like this have and will always have my envy and respect. Half of me is exactly that.
But the other half is NOT... When I picked up the ball as a child I wanted to get to the Superbowl or The World Series.
Even great music is only KNOWN to you and I because it MADE IT somewhere, to know about.

I can still and always hopefully will be able to write a good song or make some really good music. I get respect from every type of musical person I meet and I give it as well. But the chance for millions to hear it will NEVER happen. Being able to pay for the high cost of living here and giving all those I love
the best chance and opportunities in this world, and doing it through MY music. That has been impossible thus far.

It may not take GREAT musical (traditional kinds) talent or abilities to make it in the biz, but to even think that's "Anyone can make it" is utterly ridiculous.

No matter how hard you work that achievement well
"IT'S OUT OF YOUR HANDS"

Mike but you miss the point and I think what I say has been twisted......My point is all about perspectives....To write great music you need lots of skill and talent....so that is incredibly difficult

It is impossible to write a great song without having this talent.


But it is possible to be successful without having talent...we see it all the time.... in fact for some it is quite easy.

NOW I think I get your point Jim. If so, then I agree with you completely. Yes, one must be very skilled and talented in order to write/produce songs that will stand the test of time as opposed to people who aren't as talented and become successful because they write the hit of 2010 or the hit of 2011 (ie. a one hit wonder). A GREAT song will be a hit in any era and if covered by artists in the future, could be a hit for them too if the cards stack up right.

A lot of the pop on the radio right now can't stand the test of time and will disappear ten years from now, maybe even less than that. I love the songs I write, but some of them probably won't stand the test of time even though I may make a few bucks off them. That isn't to say that I haven't co-written songs that couldn't stand the test of time, but they haven't been released yet, so I don't know.

Yeah it was definitely a blast. How many people can say they got to see members of two legendary bands jam it out in a living room on New Years Eve? Not a lot I would imagine. It's a cherished memory for sure.

My buddy's dad WAS (past tense) in the band Chicago. He left the band last year due to reasons I am not at liberty to explain. My buddy though (the son) is the one I write with, not the dad. I WISH!! lol I've actually never asked the dad to do any co-writes. I wrote that song "Tidal Wave" with my buddy before I had to remove it from my youtube page (pending a hold with a major label artist for the song) and we've written a few other songs together. We wrote the song simultaneously as he built the track. So you could say we pretty much wrote the song from scratch.

If you want to check out some of my buddy's stuff, go to his music page on reverbnation: www.reverbnation.com/willchamplin

He also played piano on the new Michael Jackson album that recently came out. The song my friend played on is "I Like the Way I Love You".

So yeah, we can write proper music and my friend does regularly, but pop music is for the kids who are currently buying the records and if I hope to remain successful, then I better keep myself relevant. Ya dig? lol

It's true. Not just ANYONE can make it in the music business and truthfully, most people don't. Dude, even some of the BEST musicians in the world aren't making it. It's not because they suck, because they are great. The problem is that there are several factors and variables to "making it" and every method is different. Not every success story is the same. Take Ted Williams for instance. A homeless man just happens to come across the right circumstances and now a lot of people know who he is and he's about to be set for life.

Does that mean Ted Williams is the most talented guy on the planet? No. He was just in the right place at the right time and talked to the right person.

Could that happen to anyone? Truthfully, no. If people want to raise their chances of success, then move to a music mecca, go out and meet people, develop those relationships, and become friends with them. Friends help friends, even if you're not the most talented cat in the world. BUT don't get me wrong, you DO need enough talent to make it relevant for that new "friend" to want to go out on a limb and risk their reputation for you.

I love your analogy of junk food vs healthy food in comparison to disposable, manufactured songs and songs that will still be cherished generations from now.

Thanks Greg...I like junk food as well as the next man....but I know it is still junk food . LOL

Here is another analogy that you might like.....it is also to do with food.....
A kid who flips burgers for a living tells a Michelin star chef "hey man I am a chef"...The top chef has a laugh and says "son you have a lot to learn about food".....The kid who does not know that the guy is a chef and has spent all his life preparing great food and mastering the culinery art says "hey man how many burgers have you flipped? and let me taste one of yours if you know so much about food"....the chef laughs.

I see your point about making it.....it is about luck and contacts and being in the right place with the right people.....Yes I know ALL of that. I think luck could happen to nearly anyone whether they have talent or not...hell there have been some real stinkers made it in the biz. I will not bore you with a list of names. But here is one.... Wagner was a fifty odd year old guy who appeared on X factor...the Brit equiv of AI. This guy sucked and I mean sucked in every way...he got through to the final final stages......and now is pretty succesful as a singer and TV personality.....I have no idea why or how he got through or even entered the comp he was so woefully bad but the judges for some strange reason selected him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrt5jDbLbdk&feature=related

and that was one of his better performances.

I know tons of great musicians who do all the things you say and will not make it......that is simply all I am saying.....Talent does not guarantee success....lack of it does not guarantee failure as the above link proves.
My advice to you is simple.... never give up learn as much as you can about ALL aspects of music and keep doing what you are doing.

Good Evenin' Bro Bill!

Naw, 'Tain't I who says Lyrics Aren't Important..re-read my post.

I WAS saying that WE-uns LIKED Louie-Louie Because (We thought..& I still do) The Lyrics were DIRTY, which helped us in our Buying Decision (& Antagonized our parents/teachers/ANY Oldster who heard it or Heard OF It..heh!

Zoom Fast-Forwards to Today's Pop Hit, "Bust It Wide Open"...It's Catchy, Danceable, & sure SOUNDS like it's "Dirty"..heh!

Production-wise, that Singer's "False-Started" "SHE"..could nowadaze be erased-out with an easy Button-Push. But Left-In, it rivaled The Mamas & The Papas flubbed-line in "I Saw Her Again (Last Night)"..if ya remember that'n', too. BOTH songs had Killer Grooves/Talk about DANCEABLE!

Anyways, if kids perceive a song as On The Dirty Side..it'll sell like hotcakes IF it's Dance-ably-"Catchy". (Even the word "Dirty" helped Dexy's Midnight Runners sell "Come On Eileen"!)

Ga-Ga, bless her, ended one of her vids (& the song) with a Call to 911 to announce she'd just "Killed Her Boyfriend". (Talk about "Liberated Women" today...Lordy..that Gal knows EXACTLY what she's doing.) (& Moms & Dads "Overhearing" the track'll react JUST like OURS did..back in the Darker-Ages.)

Interestingly, most Sex these days ISN'T All-That-Naughty...But MURDER Still IS...

(Kinda scares me what our Grandkids are gonna be listening to...)

Best Wishes & a Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

Okay that I understood, thought you meant it's not hard to make it in the business. Yes I see & hear loads of people with very little or limited musical abilities succeed in the business all the time. Always have always will...

I just wish we could spend more time on the focus at hand.

The post was mainly intended for people who would like to experience trying to write a song in a different way then they may be costume to. Also happens to be the way 80% of Thee chart is done. We're talking about expanding your chances.
Because believe this or not most ALL people who write songs would like to be paid for them and would love nothing more than to be successful at it. When they say they don't or didn't they are LYING! 90% of the time.
And in many cases It's usually a great excuse for "they can't"

That is the perspective that counts.