JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum A Better Look At How Pop Music Is Made - Lady GaGa

Not long ago I wrote a thread about "Track Writing" and how dominant it is in pop music and the most popular music in the US and most all the world. The only one person who responded to it was Big Jim lol naturally since he's such a pop diva

It was intended to see and ask if you have experience with it or would consider working from this angle. I recognized it as being a big part of the music industry back in the early 90's when I was in the studio doing it with Producers. Producers like Darkchild Jenkins here in this video are the driving force behind at least 80% of pop music and the charts. This is how they write and create.

I found the video and thought you might like to see a little of how the biggest star in all of pop music works.
With so many songwriters wanting a HIT this is something you should recognize and think about.

Also writing to ANY style of music with any sound pre-recorded is track writing. It's basically the idea of YOU coming up with either the lyrics or melodies or both, to an nearly done track.


Telephone - Studio footage 2 minutes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGEJKGCBMIE

Production production production..........I love the harp.....wish I had the plugin.

I bet that writing the lyrics and melody amounts to very little time and skill needed compared to the HUGE amount of time and skill put into the production.

Well. that was fun to watch . . . and educational as well.
Ott

Yes and that is mainly because it is production driven. That is why "songwriters" in the traditional sense hear these songs and discard them. Lyric and melody is an after thought pretty much.
But it's still exists, you still have melodies and what I call catch phrases. Little spurts of rhythmic parts lyrically or vowels or part of the word... simple.

Even the amount of time spent on the first part of the song which is written with production simultaneously can happen pretty fast when your comfortable with it and it's in "your world" The Black Eyed Peas can make a song in 4 hours easy and it's an automatic chart topping hit. Because they are established and as long as they keep in this world everything falls straight into place.

So knowing that there are many writers who just write lyrics or some who can do melodies or both and not even have to play an instrument, hooking up with a Producer who track writes could be an option for getting closer to commercial success of some kind.

While I did it briefly and had near success with it. I strayed away from that style, sound and approach pretty quickly going back to acoustics, live playing, and other styles.

Mike

I so enjoy lady gaga's stuff, and this was fun to watch it in the studio. Thanks.....:)

Kim

I felt that knowing that there are only two kinds of song styles basically available for non performing songwriters some of us should see them. Country Music being the other, Pop in general is very similar to this as through Dance Music and Teen Pop.

Naturally I'm not thrilled with limited choices but if you want LABEL work, that is all there doing.

Mike

Hi Kim

I know your paths cross with pop music, and you have that mindset in your arsenal. It's also nice to see that BIG WIGS aren't really working in a room made of Gold or a palace. Just some essential gear used by everybody in that field and the know how to use it. Makes you see that "You Can"

Funny thing about it is it's harder than it looks yet easier than you think and then vice versa..

The songwriter is on the endangered species list, whether we like it or not. Probably in 25-50 years, there won't be any left. They'll be as rare as a blacksmith or a postal clerk. Their guitars and pianos will be in museums beside Victrola recording machines and old 78 rpm record players.

Even today, where are all the young songwriters? The real ones who write from the heart and look at the human condition? Nashville? Don't kid yourself. It's all about writing to a formula down there; they want songs that will move the most product, CDs, T-shirts, bumper stickers and what not.

If you're a songwriter, take pride in the fact that you're one of the last of a dying breed.

Someday music will have no soul. There won't be any truth in it. It'll all be made by machines. A lot of it is today. People will like it just as people today like production music. It will be all they know about music.

Sure, the old stuff will still be available - Beethoven, Brahms, Gregorian chants, the Beatles, Jazz and all the rest of what we know as music. But it will be a curiosity. It will be considered quaint and odd. In the future people will wonder how anyone could listen to the stuff that we listen to today.

Luckily, I won't be around for that day.

That was pretty good to see Mike
Thanks for sharing it.
I'm not sure what good it does the folks here though. Most can't afford a decent guitar so I'm not sure how they can do this kind of music. That Akai synth he is using costs about $3500.00. I'm sure there's another few grand in the keyboard(s).
And that's just for starters.
It's all done MIDI.
I have never been able to get my simple MIDI keyboard to work, LOL

This is a whole nother way of creating music.

But I have to admit it sounds GREAT.

I wonder if Andrew or one of the others might chime in on this. I think they create music this way.
Might make a good forum.
Maybe there is some info in the recording forum already.

I thought it was great too. They are really having fun (though the "session" seemed to be somewhat made-for-tv).

Bill, I could be wrong, but I wouldn't bet that the producer guy in the video was born into money to buy all that gear. He's probably devoted his life to his craft, and obviously had some commercial success. I think you could probably get into to it with decent results (talent/discipline/patience pending) on a budget. Craigslist is a wonderful thing.

Mike

That means a lot to me Mike, thank you. As Mark Twain said " "I can live for two months on a good compliment"

Kimberly

You might be right Mike.
Lots of folks selling their stuff these days.
There are plenty of less expensive synthesizers on the market as well.

As far as the producer goes I know nothing about him or how he got where he is. He obviously has a great deal of talent and I am sure he earned everything he has. I don't follow Pop music. Most of it does nothing for me. But I will admit to enjoying Lady Gaga's stuff.

Bill, is that a real city?
Curmudgeonville, Tenn??

I just think it is the funniest name. ..funnier than my city of climax. .don't want to take over this thread, about cities...just wanted to know yea or nea..

Kimberly

LOL
Not real as far as I know but nothing would surprise me. We looked at a farm in Buck Snort.

If I ever manage to get another farm I will name the place Curmudgeonville

most of my song writing is track writing. I just wrote a song the other day to a track that was sent to me for an artist signed under Atlantic Records.

I get tracks sent to me all the time from sources I work with regularly and my co-writing team and I knock the songs out on a case by case basis.

I do have one writer I work with that builds a song from scratch with me and those songs come out pretty awesome as well, but most of my writing is done the "track writing" way.

You can visit my facebook fan page and listen to the songs on my music player there. Only 3 of the songs posted (It Isn't Love, Fly Away, and Don't Push Me) were written from scratch.

Take a listen: www.facebook.com/thewattonshow

Jim,

You couldn't be more wrong. Yes, it takes a lot of time and skill to produce/arrange a music track, but not everyone can write a lyric and a melody to that track and make it sound HOT. There is a lot of work put into lyrics and melodies as well. I know because I have spent plenty of time in the studio writing, making the song perfect, and making sure the song is as commercial as it needs to be in order to compete against the hit writers doing the same damn thing as me.

I've been in the studio with producers who create a track from the ground up and it really depends on their skill level as to how long it takes. It could take a couple hours or an entire day. Same can be said for the lyric/melody process. It really depends on the level of talent/skill on the part of the writers and producers working together.

Dan

Yes I agree it does feel like songwriters are like poets still around but an (old history) thing

Yet like it or not these are still songs and songwriters of a newer kind create them. So it's the same thing but in a different way and era. Do you know if a producer puts together a beat with accompaniment and makes no changes in the whole song he or she is credited as a co-writer or writer and will be paid royalties.
That's how relevant what they do is to popular music.

I think many young writers do write from there hearts, this is there heart. Lots of people write about what they experience or what's important to them. Also loads of people write like WHAT THEY HEAR the big stars write about, the songs they hear everyday on the radio. And for the most part that has usually been about relationships and sex.. and any slightly different way to say the same things. It's hard to be that unique, especially in a world that isn't dying to hear it.

As for Nashville while I do recognize lots of formula and format
and well known artists getting away with less to offer when I hear it. And I still recognize craftsmanship, and great playing, singing and production when I hear it.

Also using perspective it's pretty easy for me to see or better yet imagine, your in a town that is FULL of writers and artists.
24/7 That's all they do and EVERYDAY somebody's trying come up with just a new TITLE alone. One that hasn't been used more than a dozen times. The competition is like a shark tank and your swimming in it. Ideas are all used up, every damn melody sounds like another and then your trying to fit in with a formula & system just like EVERY other genre has... so that you can be part of a business of something you LOVE to do rather than digging ditches for your money...

Well whether I buy your music or not, I tip my hat to you and you have my respect and even more so my sympathy. I couldn't do it without injections of some kind lol

Many of the things you feel are missing are but much of it still remains in music today it's just not the stuff that is most popular on the radio and the highest charting.

The same can't be said when the song played 20 times a day on the radio consisted of Benny Goodman, Gene Krupa, Stan Getz, Glenn Miller, Harry James in one band.... Not only catchy but
playing that we couldn't touch, total package.

Now that happened 30 plus years before I was even born and I know all about it. Shouldn't I hate it? lol History will always be there for people to find it, who care enough about something
like music worth finding... lets hope lol

Good post my friend thanks...
Mike

Songwriters aren't dying, they're evolving.

Ah Hey Greg

On my other thread I mentioned that you Andrew and a handful of
others work in this format.
I'm glad you found this and jumped in.

Everything usually always comes down to perception, how something pertains to you and what your doing or trying to accomplish.

I am somebody who does it ALL L-i-t-e-r-a-l-l-y it may be the real reason why I'm ill

From every word and rhyme to every melody and phrase, chord, arrangement,tempo, bass drum pedal hit snare to the last floor tom, bass note, piano chord, keyboard part, lead solo, vocal and harmony....recording engineer, wiring tech, working software and programs, tracking and mixing, mastering and Producing!
Both creatively and executively.
Then I go pitching and marketing.

And for fun I shoot video and edit it and sync it and for more fun I practice 3 to 4 hours a night on various instruments. Self teaching I finished all 40 drum rudiments and working diligently on Jazz guitar stuff.

Am I'm telling you it is NOT easy to track write pop music

The way I tried to do it is to try to make it fun, like a game.
I liked doing it with another person because it helps the enthusiasm and makes it more competitive. Yeah I love you man but I'm gonna do the best I can to upstage your melody and do it quickly like a knock out punch. Even though I hope your just as good because 1- your my co-writer and 2 - This is not a fight but about making something productive positive and fun.

The result, good work and productivity and a chance at doing something with my abilities. No matter which ability that is They are all important... All gifts from God that also required endless effort always are.

On the lyrics, are they the deepest wish I wrote those you ever imagined or heard? No not always the case, but how they are related to by the young audience who listens? well that's everything. And what the industry your trying to have pay you is expecting.
And the hard parts are making your words current and
very EASY and friendly too sing. Then you try to be clever and catchy, witty, trying to write about things that have been done over to death like "Young Love" and like in Country songs your trying to come up with new or fresh angles in a job where that's what everyone else is trying to do.

And your targeted person when your done is not your Mom or best friend, It's somebody behind a big desk with the word NO!!!!! stamped across there forehead. I'm sorry permanently tattooed across there forehead.

Okay that's what i mean when I say "perspective"and there's lots more personally to deal with.

The most important tool you can have is just being "musical" in general. The next is perseverance. One will help the other to obtain your goals or at least make you respect yourself and give you a chance...

Thanks Greg! I have been in the room with the track playing over & over & over and going completely out of mind having both my perseverance and musical-ness being put to the test!

OH and did I mention DEADLINES!

Mike

I disagree..... YOU could not be more wrong and miss my point entirely......in todays production driven environment the record consists of virtually 100% production...... lyrics and melody are almost an afterthought. Most of the pop songs of the gaga ilk are just childish nonesense lyrics and the most simple of melodies....it is the production that makes them catchy. I wonder if the ditty in the vid stripped down and performed as a simple piano/voc would have the same mass appeal or stand up on its own. I doubt it.

Now take a great set of lyrics and add a great melody...then add that type of production...then you might have something. The problem I see is that the modern writers do not have the skills to write a song that can stand up on its own without all the bells and whistles production. They might be a whiz at using computer plugins and fx but lack the music and basic writing skills of yesteryears musicians to produce a truly great song which IMO = great lyrics and great melody with a great arrangement and performance.

We hear some great prophetic lines quoted from some of the great songs of all time "Yesterday" "My Way" etc etc.....I doubt people will be quoting....ga ga ga ga ga ga in a few years time.

Songwriting is evolving...... but into what?

So then Jim, where are your hit records?

Sorry Jim,

I'm not really trying to come off as an a**hole to you, but the truth is, you're not right on this matter. Top 40 pop is not 100% production. I'll agree that there is A LOT of production involved in order to polish the song to mainstream standards, but the writing in the song is just as important. It's concept driven as well as production driven. To disregard that notion would be fatal in any attempt at writing songs that are chart worthy.

I will agree that there IS quite a bit of crap out on the radio, I've heard songs that make me cringe, but on the upside, I've heard some really great songs that deserve to be recognized for the songs that they are.

No, those songs are probably not going to end up in your ipod. In fact, I guarantee I wouldn't find any of those songs on your ipod, but you can't generalize that ALL pop music is 100% production and 100% crap.

Here are some songs that I personally think are great songs:

1. Bruno Mars- "Just the Way You Are"
2. B.O.B.- "Airplanes (ft Hayley Williams)"
3. Eminem- "I Love the Way You Lie (ft Rihanna)"
4. Taio Cruz- "Dynamite"

If you can write songs like that, I'd like to hear them.

Just sayin' broski...

I do not write hit records that to me would be abhorant...I write because I do...for me to perform... and if others enjoy it is a bonus. I never said that ALL pop is crap....although by your own admission you agree that a lot is. I am saying that behind the hype and the production lie some pretty lame songs and some pretty lame performers.
There are exceptions but considering the million dollar success of some crap I would say I have a pretty good point.
I am familiar with the songs you mentioned...nothing special or particularily original or clever about any of them as far as songs go.... but production wise they are great and that is what makes them sell.
Write from the heart not to a formula and you might produce songs of note BUT do not get confused between success and greatness. BIG DIFFERENCE.

That's it boys play but play nicely

Actually Jim did not go into attack mode and made a very fair assessment in his original post.

On this "production" aspect EVERYTHING is a production from Ga Ga's My my my my po-ker face to Metallica's heaviest song. When Lars plays drums for four measures of verse then four chorus and eight for the bridge, then walks out after 5 minutes and says "there you go" now put all the sections where you want them in Pro Tools" That is production based as well, it's editing like programming but form a live source.

What it is really about is not Production but Programming not production. A mix is a mix and effect is an effect in any style of song.
In 80% of chart music programming is the dominant way used in productions.

Beats, samples. LOW END, sounds, small riffs and musical parts are it's consistency. That is the case with about 16 out of the top 20 songs on the main chart. The other four are made up of a combination of programming and live and then there's your one band and singer songwriter/acoustic type.

When you listen and look at a song and a record lets still call it a record lol it's ALL these things that make it special for me. Some pop songs like the ones Greg mentioned are good examples then there are some where they just bring more to the table for me and many others because of the musicians aspects.

When I hear an old pop song like "What's Going On" by Marvin Gaye or Brandy by Looking Glass, for example I'm getting alot out of it because it's offering alot. Not only are there great melodies and lyrics but great chord changes, voicings arrangements, but killer drumming and bass playing, guitar playing, horns playing and naturally singing. Dynamics and parts made by human beings with special talent all of there own.

Is it any wonder why a kid sitting with a Sequencer and a drum machine creating a song is not gonna put music across like having James Jamerson playing bass, and Bernard Purty playing drums and Herbie Hancock on piano and on & on....

Yest still some of these guys are pretty darn "musical" with just a beat box and use of samples... If an industry says "We will make you rich" and you DON"T have to practice the violin or any instrument for six hours a day for years and years, then what else would you expect anyone to do? That's part of the overall problem but not to those doing it!

This isn't really about a question of taste it's about being a successful songwriter in the Entertainment/Music Business of 2011
If that's what matters to you.

I'm also not saying EVERYONE could, but some people who can't play one thing can walk into your studio and give you all soughts of great ideas and parts to play and try. That is a fact and especially when the music is geared to commercial or popular music
As that is what most people are used to and listen to anyway including the once were DJ's that turn into the producers of all the songs your hearing...

See the connections?

I respect that you write the way you do. Nothing wrong with that. Whether you can or cannot write songs that would be chart worthy is not really relevant, but don't say that writing chart worthy songs would be abhorant/insulting to you because then you come across as if hit songs are beneath you. That is an elitist attitude and suggests that you think you're better than that.

While there are a lot of songs over a long period of time that have ended up on the radio I would raise an eyebrow at and wonder how the hell they ended up on the radio, there are also a large amount of songs that I would say belong on the radio because they fit the standard of why they were put on the radio in the first place. I would say the same about any genre. Not every song in any genre is perfect.

As mike pointed out, it also depends on perception. What may not be "great" to you, may be "great" to a whole different demographic of people. So what if you wouldn't buy it? So what if a song isn't something you'd listen to? Someone and/or someones out there WILL buy it, will listen to it.

But I digress.

I'd say the melodies in those songs I mentioned are a major factor in why those songs sell, in addition to the production. The lyrics are equally important--"I wish that airplanes in the night sky were shooting stars, 'cuz I could really use a wish right now, wish right now",--and the lines I just quoted I would say are pretty damn original to me.

Who's to say that people who write to a formula are not writing from the heart? I write to a formula and I also put a lot of heart and feeling into the stuff I write. Would you beg to say otherwise?

By the way, success and greatness usually go hand in hand.

mike,

I am not in attack mode either, but from my point of view, writing lyrics and melodies are not an after thought in the top 40 pop world and for Jim to suggest otherwise invites an ignorant attitude that I merely wished to correct.

I know your really not.... but we all can get into defense mode. 100% natural. Especially when we believe in what were doing we have to believe!

Not all songs that chart are so worthy lots of reasons of why and how they get there. Sonically doesn't count they are not going to let cassette recordings over the air lol. BUT....
The work or effort that went into the whole process of getting a song charted is a WHOLE nother thing. And can not be belittled unless RELATIVES are involved.. lol

One of the things Jim is frustrated with is not your song writing Greg or your goals... It's just the overall media and impact it has on making anything even nothing into something. Everything seems to be about singing and dancing contests, and most of all external BEAUTY. While all things take work some things take a lot more and we can really tell the difference when we look and listen more deeply at it. Can't blame him one bit for feeling that way.

All the AI singers who are good are always usually the most humble and want to work hard. People just think there "Fabulous" today because they exist and think so. And in many cases industry and media awards them for it.

I think it's WONDERFUL that they helped that homeless guy he'll have a recording contract that none of us will or may ever have.
He is now successful is that great? Yes! is he great? I don't see how.

No matter what, Greg did NOT set up this whole system and business.
He's paying attention to what it is for sure and he's not fighting it and he's gaining ground in it.

What more can you say?

Programmers/producers (whatever you want to call them) spend time in the studio programming tracks and mixing them together. Then they send them out to writers that they know and those writers (like me) will come up with the song that gets married to their track. Once the song is written, vocal arrangements/vocal production comes into play in the recording process. After the vocals are laid out, then vocal f/x (if any) are applied to give the song that extra layer to make the song "pop". Then you've got the mixing and mastering after that.

The darkchild/lady gaga video was cool, but all you saw in that video were their studio session putting the finishing touches on the song she was doing at the time. You didn't see the writing process that led to that point.

The point I was getting at is that there are a lot of elements that go into a pop song and they all share equal importance in order to be chart worthy. If one thing is lacking, then the whole record fails.

WELL SAID

Yes I agree Greg

Also they were showing a little bit of exactly how it can go when collaborating. He was feeding here hooks and she was taking them.
I'm sure she sat down and worked out what the songs was going be about and gave it some thought. We know she's a legit songwriter from before she was Ga Ga. She continues to show diversity and it's paying off ridiculously.
Creating is creating no matter what, some things can seem easier and sometimes be easier. Other times it's like "You would not believe how much I had to push myself to accomplish this GOAL in front of me.

I understand that, and that's what I'm trying to get others to understand who want a little taste of some success. It can be VERY exciting! Don't rush to deprive yourself of it.

Maybe for learning purposes and for fun we can do a track right here. Via skype or audio examples.

I'm sooo dated now it's not funny when it comes to this style.
But I'll dig up a track or two that I wrote using this method.

Maybe give you's the track without the melodies and lyrics and see what you come up with. But without the deadline and the UNBELIEVABLE feeling knowing that what your doing will be considered and has even the slightest chance of ending up on the radio. A dream for ALL songwriters no matter what you do or what you like. So no pressure....

Or maybe you like some pressure?

Sound good? Maybe others would like to try. I can move that or start that thread on the songwriter board or the Mp3 Board where I usually do nutty stuff like that

I totally get what you're saying mike and I love that you opened up this thread for discussion. I'm not experienced in many of the genres that our fellow JPF'ers write, so a lot of the time I don't chime in unless I feel I have something to say that can contribute to the topic at hand. This topic however, I feel right at home in and I have a lot to say I suppose. Lol

For all the songs out there, it's rare that I'll come across something that has all the right elements in order for me to say "Dayumn! I need to hear that again!"

I do come across them though.

I've heard my fair share of songs that has made me think to myself, "Wow, I'd shoot myself if I ever wrote something that cringe worthy."

I heard somewhere, "Anyone can write a song, but not everyone can write a great song."

But sometimes politics gets in the way of the great songs making it as opposed to a poorly constructed song that makes it through all those filters.

I'd be interested in hearing what people come up with.

Hi all,
let me disagree with most words said about production...
I like to listen to even just pure beats with no singing on them and it inspires if produced by great producer.
There are a lot of cool unknown yet producers, go to

www.openmindsentertainment.com

for example and have a listen to Adamack's beats, somebody here said there's no soul in such a music, it's not true!!! A lot of emotions that bring you as a sea waves!
I wrote one song over another producer's (Josh Bartley) beat:

http://www.looperman.com/tracks_detail.php?tid=60776

have a listen and read what others said in their
comments about production.

Greg Cool

I'm glad your here and Jim as well because one things for sure
he's passionate too and he always tries to help others.

Okay this thread took away my whole practice time and nos it's 5:30 am and even i don't feel like practicing so I'll only do an hour now instead

I don't care one way or another I will get all you guys to understand and have a feel for both sides and all sides the way that I do.
Or I may give up trying LOL

It's another reason why my friend Mike calls me "The Hybrid" lol
How do you know and do that? And know and do that? With the same smile on your face

Okay we'll do some track action very soon.... anyone can contribute a track as well just make sure you don't need permission and get yourself in a bad spot ")
Peace
Mike

I make no apologies for my attitude or for what I say..... Todays teenagers are relatively easily pleased...most are pretty gullible and undiscerning when it comes to music...as long as it is noise and has a beat they will buy it. They easily fall for the hype and marketing......to say that todays music is skilful or anything other than production line mass produced jingles is insulting to those of us who appreciate great music and great performers.....when kids come along and make millions from lip syncing cause they cannot hold a tune live it is a disgrace. Yes there are exceptions to every rule and I generalise BUT in the main most current pop music has lowered the bar considerably.
What abhors me is that the Simon Cowell's of this world could put really talented people on show BUT for some reason known only to them they do not....there is plenty of young talent producing some great music but they always seem to pick the lame ones and clone them into the mediocre mould they have already made and churn out the same tired aongs.
Whatever happened to the rebellious kids who wanted something different, groundbreaking, revolutionary or pioneering....they certainly are not in the pop charts.....all I hear is the same ole loops and lame lyrics fronted by some good looking kid who cannot sing but has a business plan.
The only plan we had was to learn the craft and to be able to write and perform the best music we could.

Hi Alek, Nice work there guy...

Thanks for joining in. Actually like I mentioned part of that production is "Programming" being the big part of a production.
You are right Alek it can still have soul and it's very rewarding.

I'm one of those rarer musicians who LIKES programming midi samples and loops. I just LOVE music and when you love music you love all Music. You don't have to actually love everything you hear that's a fact but you usually can find even that one cool or kinda cool thing you picked up from somebody else's feel.
And I play four separate instruments then lots of little gadgets.

I still like Madonna's "Get Into The Groove" synth bass line even though it's programmed and a bit sterile. That's what I kinda like about it. I also enjoy things I don't do myself very often. They are interesting too me. I didn't buy her albums
but still picked up on that hook immediately. When I hear
"TAke On Me" today I dont go oh man here's those sissy boys with that lame song. I go "Check out this chorus when it goes into the half time feel DESPITE the cheezy drum machine, which buy the way fitted the time..) Listen to that triplet on the kick drum haklf time then back to full beat for the last lift"

How cool is that? Very! I like it, also the catchy keyboard riff. Did not buy it, did not see them, didn't wear there shirt or have there poster LOL. But I picked up on that which was good.. And if i were in that room on writing day I would have been excited and happy to be there.

What was that other 80's one oh yeah 99 red balloons I couldn't listen to that song twice, but it was catchy and that synth bass breakdown line was GREAT.. Drew me right in. Just like it should have and was supposed to do. See what I mean?

When I hit the studio's in Manhattan in the early 90's programming and such styles were blowing up big. When i met the producer I was impressed up and down all day & night with how this all worked, and how musical he was and how much he knew.
How in command he was in this place, and clever, competent and fast he was with his equipment.

Instead of me saying "you ain't for real" lol the guy became one of my closest friends. Instead of him saying to me "Man I don't get where your coming from he'd say damn play that Zeppelin riff again, I LOVE that. And holy smokes are you really white playing bass like that? " lol

Here is the thing EVERYONE needs to understand, you walk into a room and it's ALL about the music. No matter what that music is.
The love the passion you all bring it. It's just about being musical and giving off the best vibe you can and getting the best you can from it. It's a universal feeling and try to make it as positive and happy as you can... even when the song is sad

Do not get me wrong I love a beat and a rhythm and samples and electronica and all the bells and whistles and huge production.....I use it a lot.....I just think that it should accompany a song not BE a song. I like singers who can sing and players who can play not someone who pretends to sing or play but hides behind fx and production.
Ask Justin Biebers or Gaga to sing live with an orchestra an old classic and then see who is wrong about talent. Give the pianist in the orchestra all the bells and whistles of the recording studio and get him to write a great pop song....hell he could do it without even thinking.

I agree 100% with this, and really that's all that needs to be said on that subject.

We can never assume that the talented piano in the orchestra could even write a great pop tune, no matter what style. Not all great musicians can just "do this" but simply choose not too.
We all know this to be true I have seen it dozens and dozens of times. Even fine musicians who feel that since they are that they are good songwriters. Not the case man....

Then you HAVE to throw in the whole element of what is popular at the time and if your trying to achieve commercial success of any kind or not. That REALLY matters is you want be paid for being a SONGWRITER and anybody more than handful even knowing that you are a songwriter. I can't make it any simpler, there is the way we wish it was and they way it is in EVERY aspect of life
we deal or we don't deal with it.

Somebody can be playing INCREDIBLE blues and someone else can be saying man let him get with a classical symphony and see how much talent he has then? Frigging peasant! lol
It's all pretty irrelevant isn't it?
No one expects Justin Beiber to be Jimi Hendrix if they are there in for a big let down.

When a business is saying "we need this" you give them what they want or you find another business. Or we take another path.

New Title
This Is How Pop Music is made Today "Like It Or Not"

Okay go write Country music that's your other choice. And since
that's mostly 80's rock now and with actual instruments, it doesn't sound like a bad thing to do

Goodnight!

You might like to watch the acoustic version of Lady Gaga singing Paparazzi for comparison. Most of her hit songs are on YouTube played acoustically too. Would they have been hits without the production? Who knows? But she can certainly perform them that way.

[u][color:#990000][size:14pt]Paparazzi[/size][/color][/u]

Pretty fun video to watch. I wonder how many hours were spent on all facets of that song in the one year before this clip was filmed.

Kevin

Somebody can be playing INCREDIBLE blues and someone else can be saying man let him get with a classical symphony and see how much talent he has then? Frigging peasant! lol

Mike, I lift up both my hands voting for this and ready to sign each your statement in this your post, also I'd like to add something about programming...
Well, let's take famous piano player who never played a violin and order him to play it... what we shall hear then? Answer is: vile screeching of the strings and no more.
The same thing is when we talk about music software (VSTi, sequencers etc) - they are the same musical instruments and it's necessary to learn to play them.
One example:

http://www.looperman.com/tracks_detail.php?tid=46300

live musicians could spend 2min 34sec to play it but I have spent 3 days(!)
to make a performance like a live. Don't forget to read other producers comments about that tune.

Cheers

Mike Caro, When I refer to songwriters and how they are supposed to write with some heart, you're one of that dying breed I'm talking about. No computer or machine could have written a great song like "I'm like Brooklyn."

I wonder what the origins of "track writing" are. I remember that an old buddy of mine, Barry Oslander, used to talk about the days when he was head of publishing at Motown. He said he used to go down to the studio and ask the players, like Jamerson, if they played any particularly hot tracks that day. Then, if the songs on those tracks weren't just killer hits, he'd send the tracks over to the top writers, like Smokey Robinson, and have them write to them. This was the first I'd heard of such a system, I wonder if old Barry was the originator. Anyway, it doesn't surprise me that people work this way. Often, the weakest part of a song is the production. You can take a "great" song...I mean great according to Mike, Gregory and Jim "great," and ruin it with a bad groove or meandering arrangement. But you can take a bad song...I mean bad according to Mike, Gregory and Jim "bad," and still be a hit.

Production is the necessary factor for a hit. Not for a great song...but for a hit.

By the way, I prefer it when you guys fight, so forget all this nicey nicey stuff.

Mike

Mike if you do not express an opinion then folk cannot learn....maybe I am too honest about music that sucks. I should do what others do LIE and say I like it. I might be dishonest but more popular.
You are correct though a poor performance or a poor song can sound OK with great production. IMO it is still a poor song or performer. I can hear through it.
I prefer listening to great songs with great performances and production......why cannot the pop charts achieve this very often.
Remember we are supposed to be talking about the cream here the best in the biz......multi million dollar sellers.....
NOT IN MY BOOK.

Thanks for the thread Mike. I really enjoyed all the posts and watching the Lady Gaga video. I'm a big believer that as a songwriter, I am the one responsible for providing the content and material for producers to work with...in other words, the great song. The producer's main responsibility is to make the song sound contemporary and marketable in today's marketplace. That's if you want a "hit". A great song is still a great song even without the production, but today's audiences are used to sounds, beats, production special effects, etc., that make the song current and not outdated.

Hi Colin

Your so right there was nothing to poppy or production based about that 2 minute or all those great chords she was playing.
She was THAT before she decided to turn it into a freak show.
Lets see do I want to keep my pretty long brown hair and sit at the piano with class and character and get NOWHERE and make NOTHING or do I want to set myself up for LIFE and any offspring that i have is set for life and there kids are set for life???

Duh!

Then even make fun of myself by calling my record "Fame Monster"
Smart like Madonna right?

I wondered since she is a songwriter in the more traditional sense did she sit at the piano first or work from the TRACKS on the recent material.. Maybe some were both but probably started at piano mostly.
There are lots of artists out there with this style of quirky songs, singer songwriter stuff. I have one right here with Briana and she is quite talented and musical.

Ga Ga just decided to take the path that is "The Entertainment/Music Business" I can never FAULT anyone for making themselves so KNOWN that I can find fault with them lol

Thanks for sharing that post..... As we can see though that PRODUCTION matters. If she wrote this song this way and left it.
What would have happened then? isn't she still the same girl inside, the one who was doing this before on the piano with the long brown hair?

Thanks
Mike

From my experience Kev the producer would put a track/song together
rather quickly. The writing process seemed to happen pretty fast overall since there was always some kind of pressure or deadline.

One thing to remember is a guy working alone programming is like having a band in your hand. You still got to work it all out. I did lots of programming in the late 80's but not so much for dance purposes but trying to simulate a band etc... more or less.

Good question Kev