JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum It Does Not Matter Who Does Not Like Your Songs

- Justin Bieber is roundly disliked and dismissed by most people. He does not care. He only cares that there are some who do like his songs..... He holds the record for most watched YouTube video - Baby, Baby - total of 17 million views.

- Taylor Swift is roundly dismissed by many. She does not care either. She only cares that there are some who do like her songs - sales of 4 million cd's last year - most of any artist.

Chris Bangle - previous designer for BMW - flamed and toasted in the message boards - many hate his designs. He does not care - his designs set sales records for BMW.

So don't dwell on those who don't like your songs - just focus on getting some people to like them.

Tom

BINGO!!!

This is the best post I've seen all year, maybe all decade.

Everybody has naysayers. Everybody, from John Lennon to Jesus. The trick is this: decide which criticism you can use, then reject the rest. Much, (probably most) criticism is a combination of hot air and sour grapes. Illegitimi non carborundum.

Amen. Great thought.


Linda

--Of course -- the above-named artists are laughing all the way to the bank...............



And I'm not



Still!
Good point.


Linda

Yep, this is true. It's hard to keep going sometimes but we sometimes tend to dwell on the negative and not rejoice with the positive.

Mike, thanks man.

Tom

Linda, ah yes --- the bank......


Tom

Completely right. It still applies even if you don't make a penny from what you do.

I agree with Mike about the point being an important one to fully grasp. So many of our posts seem to be based on the mistaken notion that our own opinions about "good music" are either true of false. It really doesn't matter.

What matters to your success as a writer is that you find the most effective way to express yourself. Critiques can help you realize that, but you still have to make your own decisions about any suggestion in a critique.

And what matters to your success as a writer/performer in the music industry is that you have a lot of fans. They just have to like your stuff enough to buy it, period.

But you sure don't/can't/won't please 'em all. Don't even try.

And NOT all folks are gonna like our songs, nor will I like all other songs, but there is no need in brutal negative comments on every song you don't like, if you don't like it, don't listen.....move on.....we don't all hear songs the same way, I may like a song one way and someone else may like it better another way...but who's to say that one is not good or wrong because we hear it different....

Our styles are different, thank God we're not all the same...


glyn

I've said it before and will say it again.....We have been bombarded with so much mediocrity it has become the norm.
Yes they are succesful.....does not mean they are any good IMO.

Well said Tom
Joanne

Great post. Two nights ago I had a great night. Very receptive crowd, made out like a bandit in tips, a great time was had by all or so it seemed. As I was digging through my tip jar of nearly a hundred bucks in tips,{on top of my regular pay} I found a napkin that read.."Here's your tip..Don't quit your day job, you sound like s*it, YOU SUCK!".. Made my night!
Next day I "sucked" all the way to the bank, and I have yet to quit my "day job" of making music.

I'm not a musician, so I can't speak to that medium, but I've always heard that he who pays the fiddler calls the tune.

I've been writing songs a long time and this is what I've learned: You better have thick skin and you better not be in it for money or glory or to make people like you or your songs.

I write songs because I can. And when I do create a good song it gives me an almost incomparable high. There's really nothing like the feeling. I suppose the closest I can get to describing it is to compare it to falling in love or sex.

When I play a song for someone, I'd prefer they liked rather than disliked or were indifferent to it. But ultimately, what other people think of it is of no real concern to me. If it was, I would have stopped writing songs a long time ago.

So I don't dwell on those who don't like my songs or worry about trying to make anyone like them. I just try to write a song I like. I try to write a good song.

IT ONLY TAKES THE RIGHT ONE TO LOVE A SONG--YOU ARE OFF AND RUNNING--THE RIGHT ONE--

Mackie

Right, Jim, if you wanna discuss "mediocrity" well that's a WHOLE other thread..................



Linda

And I write songs because I can't help it.
It just happens. They fall out.
I may as well pick them up and dust them off.

I can push them away at times to try to stop them coming, but there is no permanent solution, it doesn't actually work. Neither do I think it's really the best idea to seek to stop myself.

I am a songwriter.

I have to accept this about myself. And move forward.

No claims to how good any of them are, or if anyone else wants to hear them but me. Only that it's something my brain just DOES.

"Don't worry if it's not good enough for anyone else to hear....
Just sing, sing a song!"

(Oh, the Carpenters.....)


Linda

Yes but they are also liked & loved by many, Justin to the tune of $100 MILLION DOLLARS already.

If your career and life is an "IN THE PUBLIC ALL THE TIME" one
then you have to make a decision. Yes everyone will be criticized by somebody of course, big deal. When you become the brunt of many jokes like say a Lindsy Lohan or somebody like that, that's another story, and something else to deal with.

Part of that decision is, will I let it effect me? And what do I want Money & fame? or Genuine credibility that will last my whole life and then along after I'm gone?

Justin Beiber is our Donnie Osmond if he was Jimi Hendrix, Bruce Lee, Paul Newman, Beethoven, Stevie Wonder, Chet Atkins and countless countless others this would not be an issue.

You get paid and there's a price to pay for being Ricky Martin.
Only you can make that decision. Be yourself, recognize the TYPE of talent you have and where and how it fits. Then you may find happiness and peace.

PS -

"It Does Not Matter Who Does Not Like Your Songs"

Especially if your already hugely successful in the music industry.
Before that it can feel like, that's all that does matter" Trust me on this.

Good post Tom, Lets hope Justice's is roundly disliked to the tune of $100 Million someday. You know what I mean, I think you guys are great. Keep it up.

Mike

Great post, Tom. I think this thread deserves a "sticky".

I think we all agree that to be in the music or entertainment industry, on any level, you're going to need a thick skin and the ability to perservere in the face of adversity. That said, I think it's a valuable learning tool to be able to look at yourself objectively and really LISTEN to criticism that's being offered. Not many people fall of the turnip truck readily equipped to deal with this business or to be the best at what they do...we ALL need a few pointers and need to listen to those more experienced than we are (hence, THIS SITE!) so those who are closed to negative criticism are only hurting themselves. Free criticism, especially from gifted and experienced musicians, is A GODSEND! It can take a mediocre talent to the next level, if the person chooses to adhere to the steps he or she needs to take to get to that next level. I believe that only those who are SERIOUS about achieving the next level are actually open to the criticism and able to learn from it. Those who are content with mediocrity at best will ignore it and continue putting out the same stuff, over and over, never growing, never learning, never getting to the next level.

So YES, it's important to love what you create, but IMO, it's equally as important to be open to crits and LEARN AND GROW to create the BEST stuff you (and ONLY YOU) can!

Ah, yes.....

Tom

Prettymuch True, Brother Tom.

Of course, when you GET the fanbase those 2 Singer-Writers get to, you can HIRE folks to do your worrying for ya.

As a 30 year Songaholic, I get FAR more fun outta Creating the Stuff than I do Marketing It.

Some I write, thinking HOW will an Audience react? & Some, I could care Less. (NOT being an "A-List" writer gives me the FREEDOM to do The Latter.)

As Big Jim's mentioned, there is a lotta CRAP that makes it to the Top Of The Heap..so don't even be afraid to create some Crappola along the way...it just MIGHT be That One That Everyone LOVES. (You never really DO know in this biz.)

Exit..to strains of "My Ding-a-Ling" and "Louie-Louie"...

Best Wishes/Big Hugs,
Stan

I am aghast that such mediocrity is even being discussed. I am dumbfounded that most of these people ever get to the high echelons they do.....it is not them that are the problem or to blame...it is the silly people who buy into the hype and the happy back patting that goes with it and the powerful producers who put them there.....do they really think that these people are talented? If so then it says more about them than the people who say they suck.
Rather than saying how the hell did they get there in the first plcae and how do they keep getting away with it? We put them on pedestals. The world has gone nuts.

As long as the teenage girls like it, you've got it made. True 50 years ago with Fabian, true now with the latest flavor of the same confection.

I have to admit I don't know Justin Beiber or what he does/sings but I'm reasonably confident that in two years time all his CD's will be found in the "can't even give them away" bargin bin and unless he is quite astute he will be as broke as the next man. If he is not writing his own songs he will be replaced by someone even younger and prettier and the hype will move on.

The industry gatekeepers are responsible for what the media gives to the public and if the public want talentless, beautiful but stupid people, to elevate to star status, then that is what they will get. We can't always blame the industry who admit that they do what makes money rather than promote music of quality or take chances on something that is new or meaningful.

Hi Big Jim, we know there is an awful lot of people who don't buy into the "mainstream" and both, listen to, and make music that is more original and exciting than "pop music". So there is some hope.

You are preachin' to the choir, Tom.. Absolutely true. The whole world can dislike your songs, but if just one person believes in you, it can alter your ego from an ugly duckling into a swan.. and that crazy song nobody cared about can end up on top of Billboard. It's all about energy, and navigating through it.. there are more to the eye..

Hee hee, I'm reminded of something one of my mentors once told me:
"No matter how hard you work, how good you get, how much success you have -- there's always going to be somebody who thinks you suck."

Just accept it and move on.

Isn't it great when you sing your heart out to the crowd and a guy comes up to you and says I love your voice. "Can you do Delilah?"

((((((((( I have to admit I don't know Justin Beiber or what he does/sings but I'm reasonably confident that in two years time all his CD's will be found in the "can't even give them away" bargin bin )))))))))))

How do you know if you have not heard his songs?

Anyway, in two years he will have about $40,000,000.

Tom

This discussion never ever ends lol

It's BUSINESS Jim what more is there to say or think about.

Hopefully one day again really good stuff will be really POPULAR again. Because that is the ONLY difference in any of this, very simple isn't it? Who knows?

As far as anything being discussed it's again simple if..
How well you threw horseshoes was an element and requirement for your success in the Entertainment/Music industry than many people would be discussing that.

All Justin's in the Entertainment business are mainly there and sorted after because of how much they can resemble Michael Jackson. Even if NO body says it, that's what it's core is about. And let me tell you they "say it" at meetings.
Has anyone ever been to a record label meeting?
I have been to a few,there unbelievable.

The entertainment business wants a "type of talent" and they want it to appeal to young girls and young boys. IS this new news to anybody?
Are we shocked that the entertainment/music business wants to promote cute little boys and girls instead of well (not cute little boys & girls) :)Besides Justin Beiber has talent, that "Type Of Talent" so did Shirley Temple and many others,singimng and dancing cuties. And he plays the drums at least. He's not Michael Jackson but who is, it's been done, it's old to us.

Jim you got to let this stuff go my friend, it has nothing to do with you and everything to do with Justice and Tom.

I challenge anyone who thinks that writing popular music is extremely easy, to write a great pop song and post it here to get compared against the chart toppers (song writing quality and production quality included). There's mediocre material in any genre. Being popular does not mean it's mediocre, nor is it mediocre to everyone.

It ain't as easy as everyone likes to make it out to be. If it were, everyone would be doing it and making millions.

['scuse me, I need to go tromping back off to the studio to finish a few pop songs in various formats to get them ready for shopping to artists in January. Here's the titles so I can get flamed: Boys in Stereo, Keep The Swagg Up, and Lemonade.]

p.s. If only I could get more people hating the music I make. I'd love to have Swift's, Bieber's, et al's problems.

Yeah, no problem. I just have to find the four million that like my songs.

I couldn't agree more with this Jody.

Another thing to add on, and this isn't a knock, but even it was all easy and it isn't. Why not just DO IT get it over with, get fat rich and then go back to level of the much more musically advanced.

It's a BUSINESS too and part of that is even being in the world of it. Lyrically, musically, productionally and connectivitaly lol No matter what it "IS" to you the fact is it still exists.
Whether you like the language or not if you can't speak it your out of the ball game. So? Try to make changes in yours or find another game.

GREAT POST! And soooo true. Like, hate, agree or disagree it does not matter to those who are making it doing what they want, or even those with the money behind them. Bottom line you are not going to like everything.

"I know that this may sound funny but money don't mean nothing to me. I don't make my music for money. I make my music for me."

I truly do. When I write and sing that one that speaks to me I am happy. If I sing it for others and it gets a positive response I am happy still. Don't like it...well that doesn't matter (After a while HA!)since you cannot please everyone.

Doug

I also write and perform because I love it...money has nothing to do with it I would do it for free...and do often....
Sad thing is OTHERS in the industry do not think like that.... it is all about how much money they can make and who can they exploit next......and talent etc is a secondary consideration.

I disagree with Jody...... writing a pop song of a quality that is in the charts IMO is relatively easy...getting it cut and making any money is the hard part.

Then take the challenge Jim and write/record/produce a track and post it here. Put the money where the mouth is. I'd love to hear it.

Here's my money on my mouth. This is my track Boys in Stereo. The singer is Latisha Van Simon.

http://www.jodywhitesides.com/boysinstereo.html

Jody

Jody, nice track...a little Janelle Monae influence to my ears, which is a fine thing. Are you using that new mic you won in a poker game?

I'll say it again..."popular" is happening in a different way these days. If the megastars are the only ones you use for this criteria, then you are missing some of the best new music being put out these days. There is some MARVELOUS new music being released this year. It's a GREAT time to listen to new music...but it isn't all being played on the biggest stations. So if you don't like what you're hearing on your radio, turn it off and go find the good stuff! I promise you, it's out there!

I have written and recorded enough stuff already.....judge me on that. I will write and record more but on my own terms....I do not have any chip on my shoulder or anything to prove...I am not interested in writing pop songs for the charts.

Just in case you misunderstand....I think you are a great songwriter, producer and performer you have nothing to prove.....your stuff is easily good enough to chart....My argument is not that I am that good just that the chart stuff is so bad. JMO.
PS I just had to sit through X factor final (Brit equiv of A Idol).....my wife and daughter insisted I stay....I would rather have watched The Mosconi Cup Pool upstairs on the other TV but I watched xTORTION fACTOR anyway cringing....These people will make millions and have a big hit...sheesh I rest my case.

I think the music business can be looked at as two distinct segments. The top down hit makers segment and the bottom up talent pool segment.

The top down hit makers are the record companies, top producers, American Idols/Xfactors and media outlets that are creating markets for people and styles that they create. The Beatles fit this category (we were lucky in their case) as well as rappers, boy bands and Lady Gaga. Executives decide that something/someone will be the next big thing that will make them money, and set about creating a market for it by brainwashing kids into thinking that rap (for instance) is cool and good stuff for them to spend their money on. The powers that be team up and cram rap down everyone's throat until people decide they must like it and buy the music. Usually they succeed, but occasionally they back something so dismal that it fails.

The bottom up segment is the local highly talented musician/songwriter who decides to pursue a career in music and writes her songs, pays to get them recorded, gets gigs and promotes herself as much as possible to try eke out a living. Sometimes, these people succeed and become stars.....most do not however. These are the people that Mark refers to above.

There is of course some overlap when the top down folks latch on to someone who has worked their way up.

For the most part, there is little point in trying to break into the top down segment.

Colin that is the most sense I have read on here for a while.

I see your point Colin...but I also feel that every new act I am talking about is on a label, either a major or an independent (mostly indie). I think the way they get somewhere is through being awesome, filling clubs, accumulating fans. And these same acts sometimes get enthusiastic backing from major labels.

The Beatles did it the same way any indie band does it--they packed houses, built a fan base, and tried to get a label to back them up. They failed more than once at that, until EMI finally gave it a reluctant shot. Don't forget Dick Rowe's famous quote when he rejected them at Decca: "Guitar groups are on the way out." I just think the major labels invest in acts they feel will sell the best...and they do.

The usual argument here is that we're all gullible, and eat anything the bigwigs put on our plates, and if only they'd choose more tastefully, then all the music we hear on the radio would be better. But I still believe they simply choose what MOST people buy. I would also say that MOST people aren't giving their opinions on JPF...they're just out there buying hits.

I will agree that the American Idol phenomenon in all its different guises is another story--that is manufactured buzz. Occasionally they give us some great ones, like Clarkson or Underwood...while the Stoddards and others I can't remember soon disappear. But that's not the usual way a record deal happens. It's usually more like Kings of Leon, who build a loyal following and eventually get a big investment from a major.

Either way...my main contention is that there is nothing to complain about, unless you want things to be the way they were in the 70s, with all of us listening to the same stations. Technology has moved beyond that way. Now, it's up to us to enjoy what we like, and stop worrying about the whole world having to do the same.

Ah, but this is where I have a differing view Jim. Calling current and popular mediocre is carrying a chip. It's fine to say one isn't going to write those songs, but then I would expect one to not complain about what they won't partake in.

I do agree that it's tough to get songs into the appropriate channels, but it's not impossible.

I am not being contrary, but only because they aren't on your radar doesn't mean they disappeared. I have been a Clay Aiken fan since day one and am part of his "nation" of fans In August I saw him with Ruben Studdard, what a fantastic concert, their fans love and respect them and what the do and they are two happy people, Ruben is in the Gospel genre and where he wants to be and they did benefit from their time and haven't disappeared to their fans. I wish Clay would do more orginal music, but he has his fans support no matter what he chooses to do, American Idol did shine a light on them.

I'm with LINDA on this...I just need to sing and do something with these songs, or I just might burst!

Tammy

Yes yes yes,,, I couldn't agree more. Very well put.
Perfect point.

On a slightly different note.
And this is all GREAT if your a fan only.
The thing about the radio stations and the past also Mark is this, just a bit more fairness in non self promotion. Yeah were on the internet and your on the internet more and all over the radio.

In other words if you and I were signed on a label and getting exposure as do your known but less known bands and acts that your finding and loving. We "our band" me and you.

Okay after the initial "hey man we don't care, were just happy to be here doing what we love. lal la la" speech Which by the way would be TRUE and sincere.
We would then be up at the label things, party/gatherings etc...
And we'd be smart enough to realize after a while that the new artist "Zebra Girl" who is also on our label is getting 100 more times the exposure, 100 more times the money than we are.
So are some others who get one thing we don't get (As much AIR time on those crap radio stations that we like to tune out)

Again, hey so what? Were cool with it all, we didn't choose this life (the life it takes to get this far) just for money and fame.
But we did want to me successful, EVERY band knows they can never be the next Beatles, but still wants a tiny piece of it.

So now comes label negotiation time, this is when the label who loved us decides whether we get DROPPED or not. So they go to there books the book of numbers and stats.

And when we are dropped what? we wonder why?

Not that EVERYTHING that gets played on Big radio lasts or makes a killing, it doesn't. It just has the best chance in this
super fast value meal world were living in. The more people who KNEW you makes for better chance at comebacks.

It's all about perspective always about perspective.

Good thread, I think were all finally getting a grip on this nonsense lol

Great post... period!

Ah that's what I been saying all along Jim. It's of no concern to you, out of your world 100& so why let obsess you that much? Why give it that much attention? That it's in every single post you make.

And YES anyone who ever did anything decent on a musical instrument could have a TOTALLY legitimate gripe with the state of Radio & The Entertainment/Music Business. Nobody would be naive or silly enough to even start to debate that.

That's why Mark and so many others always say "look somewhere else, find it somewhere else" Which is 100& right.

That is why Jody says (without speaking for you Jody lol:))
I know I can play cool stuff on the acoustic and have these various cool songs that rock etc... BUT! I also have the ability to adapt and this entertainment business is not knocking down the door for my cool stuff and to put my face all over the TV. So........ I can also enjoy doing doing stuff like "Boys In Stereo" It's fun, different and it's a challenge. Also it's the best way to...

#1 Stay in the music career world.
#2 Have a shot at making money that could be my life long financial support.
#3 Since it's what's MOST popular in the WORLD!!! it is a fitting product I'm offering. Besides I love music so I love ALL music.
#5 BIGGIE! If I get a break with this I get MORE attention focused on my OTHER music that I do that I love. This me gives the other me a chance I may have NEVER gotten.

Do I need to go on?

Not exactly speaking for me, but I can follow what you're writing Mike. Essentially I keep hearing/reading how people think it's so easy to write a great popular song. Then when asked to do it, pawn it off like it's easy, but isn't worth their time. I say, great - don't do it. In addition, don't complain about it. My competition is stiff enough with those that will put the effort forth. By all means, make it easier by not doing it.

I do find it a challenge to write something catchy, current and cool. But then I'm writing in a lot of different styles now. Finished a CD of funk tracks that I'm mixing tomorrow. Finishing an Urban track (Keep the Swagg Up) that caused a fellow JPFer to tell me he really loves it and that it's a hit [he's gonna help me pitch to the right artist]. Working on an acoustic pop thing about Lemonade with another guy, I'm learning/playing banjo because of it. Yet another Hip Hop track I'll be finishing before the end of the year, still working on that one. Have a writing session with a cat on Wednesday - it will be interesting to see what we come up with - as he's like Jeff Buckley and is currently doing stuff for a major corporation I don't wish to name.

I attempt to put my all into every piece I do. When I don't, I know it comes out terrible. When I do, it can drive co-writers nuts, but they appreciate the final product. When I work solo, I sometimes drive myself nuts with going over material so much. But I do it. I do it because I love the challenge and it's how I make my living.

I used to bitch about the state of music. Until I got into the real business of it. Now I work my ass off and keep pushing forward. It's an attitude adjustment I had to make to make sure I survive and push towards that goal of getting the super big hit. Could I complain? Maybe. But I'd rather shut my mouth and continue creating, anywhere and everywhere I can. That includes country and country pop (which I have done as well). Heck right now I'm also doing some Dubstep too, talk about a challenge. I had to research it, and then learn it to get it right. But it will land me a gig with a video game.

As I said - I want that problem of a lot of people hating my music.

That's great news Jody and it's great too hear about so many cool things going on.
Most everything you mentioned was on my list,in meaning It's not exact to your situation, but it is understood and universal to pretty much everyone attempting to do something about having successful songs and a career in music at such a level.

Some of what I mentioned and how I put it can sound justifying.
But that's how it can feel when your always up against it.
I find It's hard enough on ourselves then add the outside pressure's of normal life, jobs and people and the difficulty of the business itself, forget about it.

Before I even cared one tiny bit about the business of music
I didn't consider any obstacles except me doing the best I could.
When I was fifteen and sixteen playing in bars till five in the morning I could care less about any of this stuff. Sweating through sets of Rock music, long nights of jamming through FreeBird for 40 minutes Packed houses with countless friends
cheering and screaming, making you feel loved and very special.

Probably heard this before but...
About 10 years later, I was into the session work on top of everything else. I stopped with a friend at an old neighborhood bar. Then a guy I went to school with who used to watch me play all night comes up to me I smile say "hey what's up" and he
says "I heard you played on a Thelma Houston song, you play disco and your a frigging sell out"

I was SHOCKED! I looked at him,thought to myself, this a-hole is no friend to me and said " yeah bro I guess you much rather me only be at the back of the bar here still playing slide with a beer bottle"
You SHOULDN'T have to defend something like that or yourself.

I NEVER bitched before, was happy when I was in, worked even harder after getting in. Did not bitch when things vanished.
Worked even harder after that. I have bitched though trying to get back in, mainly because when I see opportunities blown (not by me) or lost, I feel it much more now than when I was younger.
Especially when you can see the troubles and snags before they even hit you, that insight is harder to contend with. I rather get hit blind

Great to see all this stuff happening Jody, you deserve it for just working so damn hard, that's something that not everybody gets, and NOBODY can ever take away, no matter what kind of music,field your in or job you do. The key is that you enjoy and believe in what your doing and that your growing and happy.

I need to do adapt like you are, I just don't have the legs or the gas in the tank left to do it.

Go get em!!

Good Luck
Mike