JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Gigs That SUCK!!!

Ray,

One more thing. In the next few weeks I am writing with a few of my friends who are hit songwriters, particularly Gary Hannan,"Tequila Makes Her Clothes Fall Off",Danny Wells "These Days" (Rascal Flatts), Jimbeau Hinson (Party Crowd),and Chas Sandford (I Ain't Missing You At All. We are all friends and have written before. But in each situation, we are bringing artists along with us to write with.

That is really the only way to get close to a cut.

MAB

Hey Polly really really enjoyed this one I was laughing as I read it think she should write short stories or blog this and get paid.

With that said, I've been in the food and beverage industry for years and have been employed on ever end imaginable. Yes, even as a business broker and bouncer. What I do know is that they make a crap load of money off of performers and there is absolutely no way that they cannot comp $200 worth of drinks. Which by the way is equivalent to less than depending on the market, in L.A. that would be 2/3. It is also bad business practice and illegal to put others on a tab, you do not have to pay for what you did not order. If they add others to it with out directly asking who started the tab they have to eat it. This even applies to when kids order with out an adults permission.

LOL a tip jar is always fun especially if you keep plugging it. I had a band do that at a bar I bounced at and the would mention it after every song. Didn't go over very well.

To think that you did someone a favor by being a last minute add, why would that give you a break anywhere else right. It seems the wrong people run these establishments but it is no wonder why most of them embezzle themselves into bankruptcy.

I'm a bourbon guy myself, Makers Mark cost $30 bucks at the store get a flask and toss em back while you are between songs. LOL that could be a good back up plan for places like that.

Ok back to the boring business side, when you have a new venue arrive early and get the staff warm on you. Say nice things about the place and ask plenty of wonderful tourist questions. Find out about the bar tab during a very casual and light hearted conversation. I teach my artist to be very suggestive in the question process. Say things like we normally get 2 shots and 4 beers comped since that is all we drink. Would that be a problem here. LOL if they are real ingrates they will tell you what they normally do at this establishment and BAM!! you bust out the flasks.

Have fun!!!

Well Marc,
Off to write another song I see. It seems everytime I get an idea for a new song I discover I already wrote that one. After a while you just have to quit and re-evaluate.

Marc, you really should stop going around the world just to get next door. The gloom and doom you posted about the Music Business is in all endevors. Look at the Auto Dealers. There is competition everywhere. Does that stop you from writing another song? I think not. There must be at least a hundred artists there in the recording studio making that next Platinum Album. That's what I want to hear about. A hit is written somewhere everyday. That Producer you hang out with isn't about gloom and doom. He is looking to make that next great Album, etc. His parties are about seeding the ground for that next project. Think Postive! It works.

Ray,

Are you just reading part of my posts or what? In every example that I have given about challenges in the business (and that is what they are, not doom and gloom,) I give you about four or five examples of what myself and other writers and artists are doing. I also say exactly the same thing,that this is the same as every other business. I just said that.

Up until the 70's most businesses were large manufacturing business and unions and people had lifelong jobs. That changed to a service economy in the 80's and then to a do it yourself economy in the 90's through home businesses. Also at the same time, more millionaires have been created than people who inherit money and things like Walmart did not even exist until 1987. So things do change all the time. I say that all the time too.

I said that the changes in the industry are now that writers and artists are hooking up before any deals are made, writers are writing with hundreds of artists and most of those don't get deals. You up the level of the odds. And that artists are doing more themselves than ever before.Record companies and publishers are only looking at people that already have things going on.

The thing that has changed is the "get a publisher, songplugger, lawyer, etc. and pitch to them. That works very little any more because the nature of the business has changed due to the internet, computer,increased competition and the loss of certain kinds of income. That means more artists writing their own stuff. So you have to write your way into those circles now. That is what has changed and is going back.

I think you need to re-read what I say in this and in every post I do. I comment on what you ask, give you both sides of the equation, tell you what I myself are doing, and how I and others that I know respond to it. I don't know what is doom and gloom about that. Just because certain things change doesn't mean things stop.They just change.

You asked where the music industry is and where it is going. I said that. To finding and developing your own niche primarily in your own area. You asked about positive things going on in the industry. The fact that more people are reaching more and more people are the positive aspects of that.

The producer I am talking about spends most of the nights talking down the music industry AND being doom and gloom. If you went there you probably would be pretty depressed. He usually does 12 projects a year for Disney. He has done three this year.
The party and the gig are about playing music and not moaning and groaning about the music industry.

And the other thing is there are very few platinum records any more. But that doesn't stop me. If you listened I just produced four this week, wrote three and will be writing another one in two hours and another one on Saturday. So yeah, Ray, I tend to move on to the next song.

You need to really read what I say. I am going to great lengths to share a lot of this. It is not something I make up. This is the answer you are looking for.

MAB

Good grief ! Although it's all rather intersting, don't you think you fellas should be writng songs, rather that wankng off in a mutual masturbation session ?

Oh, oops, wrong bullitin board for me again, .... I get confused.

cheers, niteshift

Nightshift.I do this WHILE writing songs. It's called multi tasking.

MAB

Yes Mark,

I know you always have one hand free,

cheers, nitesift

LOL did Ray just compare the MUSIC INDUSTRY with the AUTO INDUSTRY. One is a form of entertainment that historically has been known to uplift and sooth, the other is a depreciating commodity that serves more as a statues quo than a logistic necessity.

Marc I agree people need to read all the posts you make because a lot of times I noticed you add on to previous posts randomly. But skipping them is the natural thing to do. Pretty sure they get more information from you than the so called consultants they hire to mentor them.

Ha, Ha,
Who was it that said the music industry is a dirty ditch filled with s*it or something like that and then there is the negative side. I am paraphrasing here. Write a hit!

Qdaiman,

I get kidded a lot because some of my posts are pretty long. I wish it wasn't that way but these issues don't have simple answers. Especially in today's market when you are trying to weigh everything from changing markets, decreasing money and increasing competition, it is very easy to just either say "To hell with it" or ignore it and go in ways that can cost a LOT of money.

The aspect of comparrisons to the car business are about as valid as any other business. Music is a luxury item that has a non ending supply. Some cars could be considered luxury items and there are a lot of different types of cars. Both industries have gone through incredible changes downward economic spirals.

MAB

For the record, I read everything Marc writes and soak it in like a sponge! It's like getting guitar lessons from Eddie Van Halen FOR FREE! MAB knows of what he writes, and if it sounds like "doom and gloom" sometimes, it's because he's trying to introduce reality to people wearing rose-colored glasses. He explained it to me once as, "I keep seeing people crash into a wall, like the cardinal that keeps fighting its own reflection in a glass window and repeatedly hitting himself against it. I try to keep people from doing that!" And he really does. It's nice to have someone here who is actually part of that "inner circle" in Nashville and so passionate about what he does that he's willing to share info for free. You don't find that very often, and I for one, am extremely grateful!

Thanks for that Polly. Didn't mean to once again hijack a thread.But all of this really ties in. From writing the right kind of songs, meeting the right kind of people, appealing to the fans and friends, getting the right kind of recordings, watching what we do for club gigs we do, building our fan base, getting cuts, it is all about being smarter and more effecient today.

I often don't know how much I know but I do my best to find out what others do right and wrong and try to pass on what I learn. Glad it works sometimes.

Got the next gig worked out?

MAB

THIS!

"I'm a bourbon guy myself, Makers Mark cost $30 bucks at the store get a flask and toss em back while you are between songs. LOL that could be a good back up plan for places like that."

Seriously. It saved us hundreds over time. Everyone ordered one drink, then kept going back to the bar for ice.

Midnite

Polly

Thank you for starting this thread. This is maybe the best thread ever (maybe because it has all that valuable discussion about the music business but didn't start out as a business thread).

I think you should play a few more gigs and then write a screenplay. I'd see that movie.

I think our band (or ANY midwest band, for that matter) could have a reality show and musicians and fans alike would appreciate and relate to it. Even a couple of the rehearsals could be filmed, so people know how much work actually goes into the break in "Heartbreaker" or ALL of the little accents in "Kashmir". It sure ain't as easy as we make it look!

Yes Marc, we've got our next one worked out...it's Friday, September 24th, but this one is at the Highway House...a club in MY neck of the woods. I put up over 30 BEAUTIFUL posters around the area for next week's gig. They're colorful and eye-catching, and all the pertinent info is in big bold black letters, including a very rare "NO COVER CHARGE" in very big letters. We're competing against a club called The Knotty Pine which has legit rock bands like ours, but they always charge a cover. We came up with a plan: We charge the bar $300, there's no cover at the door, and if we ring the register over $1,500 we get 10% of that. The bar manager was ecstactic about this idea. I thought it was a good way to pack the house and get people to spend that cover charge money on drinks. The only way the Knotty Pine lets you play there is if you play the Highway House and you pack the place.

The Highway House is very generous when it comes to drinks. We get a discount AND they give you a decent shot. It will be a good gig, and we're all looking really forward to it. I wish they were all like this one! But then again...Highway House is MY living room, and 1/2 the people there will know me personally. A few of my best friends will be there, neighbors, people I've known just from living in the area, etc. No other female singers play in this area (not rock, anyway) so it's a treat for the customers. Jimmy, the owner, loves me to death, treats me like his own. Among other things, this will get the band's morale back up!

Wow Polly. sounds like a match made in heaven. Is he single as well.. lol

God Bless Roy and Helen

Polly,

Sounds like you have hit a good formula. Works for you guys and for the club.That is the "win-win." I think most of us would make a pretty good reality show.Always something going on.

There actually have been quite a few of those kinds of shows,from MTV's "Making the BAND" VH1 shows, even the "Nashville Star" and other shows,have had some of that "secret cameras" thing.

Would be never a dull moment, to say the least.

MAB

Polly,
Break a leg at the Highway House!! Get that morale back up.

Marc, just FYI, I am LISTENING.
You know whereof you speak.

I think it's wonderful someone more "in" in the business, IN Nashville, is willing to speak up publicly on the boards here and it's great to listen to you.

Best wishes with all your new writing.

Polly, I still wanna hear some originals!! :-D

Linda

Linda,

Thank you. But the main reason I do this is that I feel people who support web sites, studios, live venues, whatever, deserve the best advice they can get.And I always reinforce that these are my opinions. They are backed up by a lot of practical applictaion, but they are meant to be taken as part of an overall strategy when approaching music.

Whatever segment we are involved in,writing, recording, networking, performing, business, etc. we should put our best foot forward, and make as smart as decisions as we can.That means getting a lot of information in whatever we are doing.

That is what I try to do. I've been lucky in that I make a living doing what I love and at the same time do my best to help a lot of people out. Pretty rewarding when you think of it.

MAB

This one has been interesting, enlightening, informative, funny as a three ring clown fest and Polly, all of us (I'm sure) are wishing you success, recording contracts, a shot at a movie and just about anything else good in the world of musical entertainment.

Marc, you are generous to take the time and explain in infinite detail some of the "goings on" in today's music world. I try to read as much as possible but in truth, much of it has been said before... and time is becoming a precious commodity. What I'm getting in your message is: 1. Move to Nashville; 2. Make lots of friends in the music biz; 3. Entertain at every venue available to you (... but I don't sing in public) and 4. Write songs with big stars without p*6%))ing anybody off... LOL!

It all sounds good but it's never gonna work for me. If that dooms me to failure... so be it. I look to good ol' Susan Boyle as my role model. She didn't stand a chance either.

I'm not saying this to be a smart-a**... just to let you know that some of us work our butts off for so very little reward and we'll probably be writing songs the day the funeral director calls on our widows. I've been told that my songs are pretty good more than once... and I'm banking on the one in a million chance that someday, someone who counts just might listen and do something with one of my songs to get me plugged into the income stream. Hope springs eternal! (No, not Hope, Arkansas... that's where Slick Willie and Mike Huckabee are from! LOL!) Both are musical. Maybe I should move to Hope? Just kidding!

I hope you know that "I'm having a go" at you 'cause you are one of my Heros here at JPF. (Yeah Ray... let up on MAB a little or he'll take his toys and leave us high and dry... LOL!)

All the best, Dave

Dave,

Man, I don't know how many examples I can give you of people creating things IN THEIR OWN NEIGHBORHOOD. I really don't. I can't make this any clearer. I am THE LAST PERSON THAT TELLS ANYONE TO MOVE TO NASHVILLE! I spend 90% of my time telling people NOT to move to Nashville. What are you not understanding about this?

The entire music industry, Susan Boyle included, is about carving your own niche now. I am the one telling you the previous methods "writing songs, recording them, getting them to publishers" are NOT working. I am the one telling you that it is possible to create your own niche. I am the one telling you that you are not going to write with big stars so focus on people on their way up.

They might be in your own neighborhood and I have given you a host of examples from Taylor Swift, to Steel Magnolia, Frankie Ballard, Zac Brown Band, Sugarland, who did just that. I don't know why you are skipping over that.

I don't like saying the same things over but obviously you are not getting any of it. Time may be of the essance (again something I say OVER and OVER)but you should probably read what I say and talk about that.

But you are right, maybe we have covered this one enough. You are going to have to do what you have to do. Everyone has to find their own way. That is about all I can say.

MAB

Creating your own opportunities is exactly what it is all about. If you want to really get the bar set off get some cheap salty nuts or popcorn to give out to everybody. Individual packs do work and the alcohol consumptions double. Then play loud which are all psychological ways to get drinkers to drink more all proven to work LOL. It's a mind game.

Marc, I would in no way compare the car business to the entertainment business. Not until I can download a car or add a header to make a song sound better. I'm just not going to do it. LOL, serious now, they function and serve us in different ways. One helps us intangibly and the other services our "needs" tangibly. I get the variations and quality comparison but that has nothing to do with the business side of it. All of us wished that the music "business" was ran like the auto it would be more consumer driven to say the least.

The only real comparrison is that everything are products. We are constantly trying to create what we do where it is acceptable to the public and edges out the competition to purchase ours (both figuratively and literally) over someone elses.

Music, food, whatever is a commodity. We hope that the public likes ours and wants them in their Ipods, their concerts, their CD players, whatever.

Through things like the Internet, we are going more direct to the consumer. You are just building your own car, having your own lot, doing your own advertising and hopefully your talent, word of mouth, and value you bring to people's lives speak for yourself.

It's about all you can do.

MAB

Music as a commodity is a debate for the sages, literally, I still don't see how the business sides can be compared. The project management is different, even the way governmental agencies look at the entities that service them, there are far more differentials than similarities. I would never go register a CD ever year with state or get my play list smogged. Now a car and a mp3 player, I would say are comparable. But, with all that said Marc I do see your point it's not just what I personally would roll with.

Mark, I hear you!
That's why I'm here: to learn and figure it all out from people who know what they're doing and how the basic things are done.

Research, research, research, and I love the friends I've made here, geniune great people, along the way.

Will I ever "make it" professionally? Who can say? There's an element of luck that goes into even the best business plan. Will I ever make a living or even get an album cut? Hard to say. Does it matter-- well-- what matters is my personal & family happiness and frankly I already have that. So I have what I need.

Will I ever get to a studio to make my own CD? Depends on family budget. If I do, will it sell, will anyone want to hear it? Don't know that either.

It's about controlling what you CAN control, I think. And to me success lies in being kind to others, giving back where you can, being a good decent human being.

So--what I *can* do is learn all I can from being here. Find local groups and make friends and connections. Find places to perform. Find out how to apply and hone and learn the craft. Put my best foot forward as Marc says, and be a good person.

With luck that will also equal being (someday) a good performer, with songs someone wants to hear, to lighten loads and make people happy for a while.

This topic has really gone interesting places!

Linda

I'm going to go with the salty snacks suggestion and actually BUY SOME to put on the bar and on tables come showtime! I want that register to RING! The Knotty Pine and The Highway House keep in contact...Gary from the Pine will get wind that we rang H.H.'s register, and will subsequently fit us into his rotation, especially since one of his regular bands recently broke up. I know he's got holes to fill, and NO female band whatsoever in his rotation. I also know that whenever he did have a female band, the place (which already has a built in crowd) packed even more because it was a novelty that people craved to see. 80% of the Pine crowd are males between the ages of 25 and 50.

Marc, I tried telling someone I cowrote with EXACTLY what you're saying. He thinks he's going to write for a BIG STAR, when what he NEEDS to do is write for someone up and coming. Besides that, the girl he has doing his demos just doesn't have the "ooomph" required to deliver his songs. She has a pretty voice, but no depth or conviction. She sounds like she's 15. For some reason, he just doesn't get that. Either he's in a contract with her, or he's "with her" in more ways than one and stuck on promoting her, but to me, he's wasting his time. It's like writing a guitar part for Eddie Van Halen and getting your next-door neighbor who happens to play a few chords acoustically to demo it! He thinks he's going to write for Miranda Lambert! Who knows? Maybe he'll actually write for her, but I don't see it.

I see this industry as changing day-by-day, and those who can do more for themselves will benefit the most. I try to become a better guitar player, because I don't want to rely on anyone else, but my THING is singing. When I have to focus on playing, which I alreay suck at, it takes away from what I'm really good at, which is SINGING! However, to get someone to be available to play on a recording or to back me up at an acoustic gig is REALLY HARD, especially if I want them to learn my songs, not something they already know. I should be able to play my own songs. Playing just doesn't come easily for me.

Another example, our Glynda is trying her best to SING AND PLAY the songs she is writing...for the same reason! She's tired of having to rely on and pay others to do it. It's very hard for her...she's a writer, first and foremost. In these economic times, it's even harder to collaborate. I can't afford a decent recording quality set up, and I can't afford to pay people to record me AND pay musicians to play on my stuff. I guess those who are either multi-talented or who have a "slush fund" for musical projects will prevail.

Hello guys,

Here we are back to this. I spent about four hours backstage at a show last night with hit writers who were talking about this same stuff. These are some people that have had some of the biggest hits in recent years, "Moving On" by Rascal Flatts, "In My Daughter's Eyes", by Martina McBride. The convesation was in even getting songs considered by record companies and getting to artists.

So they are all doing the exact same thing, writing with new artists they are meeting before they are signed. There are people like a friend of mine Danny Myrick, who meets regularly with new people to town or people visiting. One of those people,Brigette Tatum and he wrote "He's Country" which was a major hit.

The idea is that these people become an extension of you, performing songs, gaining attraction all over the place. That is what might be able to get you in back doors. But having songs written with and being performed by artists if you are not an artist yourself, is the key to everything. It may add up to nothing more than having one of your songs performed in a local setting but that is better than having it in your living room.

Like politics, it all starts locally.

Qdamian, my references to music as a commodity is the professional pursuit of the industry.You first and foremost always write for yourself.That is the creative process.But once you cross that boundrey into the commercial world, you are wanting people to "buy"what you are selling.

And this is nothing new. Even Lennon and McCartney said "everybody thought the Beatles were only about Peace and love. That was nonsense, many the time is John and I sat down and said "Let's write a swimming pool."

But to me, this is beyond making lots of money. This is about having value to what you do.Whether it is a gig like Polly is talking about here, where people stay and have that extra drink, buy food, tip waitresses and bartenders and want to hear more of what you are doing,when you are going to be back and where they can buy some of your music. Or if it is trying to become one of the favorite songs on people's I pods or computers and something they want to tell their friends about.

It is the same principal. Creating something that people want more than the other choices for their entertainment dollar. And we compete with EVERYTHING. We compete with sporting events, computer games, the Internet,movies, radio, television, each other.

That is my meaning of commodity. What you are trying to do is create a product people want. Period. How they consume it is varied. And always, you can view it however works for you. I only mention how myself and other people I know view it because that is the business we are in. If you are trying to have music that the public wants, you get in that world as well. The extent you get into it is up to you.

MAB