JPF Home Page Forums General Messages New Member Introductions & Helping Hands Some things I've learned here

I've been on JPF for 11 days now and it's been an enjoyable experience. So I thought I'd take a moment to thank Brian Austin Whitney and all the songwriters and musicians who provide the music and banter here.

And since there have been a few occasions when I've committed a social faux pas or violated an unwritten rule, mostly out of ignorance, I thought I'd list a few of the things I've learned here in my first 11-days just to show I've been paying attention.


When a writer asks for criticism, don't offer it.

Don't offer unsolicited rewrite suggestions.

If you can't say something nice about a song, keep quiet.

Don't get dragged into debates over the morality of illegal MP3 downloads. Unless you have lots of time to spare.

Marc Alan Barnette knows a lot about the Nashville music business and is a funny guy.

Collaboration is King here.

"Rest" by Michael Downing is the best unknown song on the Internet.

Kurt Fortmeyer's "100 letter song" is the funniest unknown song on the Internet.

Brian Austin Whitney must have a lot of patience.

There's quite a few really good musicians and singers here.

People spend a lot of money on rough cut and professional production song demos.

Kevin Emmrich had at least two barrels of fun on his first trip to Nashville.

If those are the first three things you learned I'd say that's a pretty sad commentary.

I agree with everything Dan said, only because a lot of people ask for criticsm and then get offended if the crit wasn't exactly what they wanted to hear. Unfortunate, but true.

I'd like to add some:

JPF truly IS like one big family!

I have friends here who are closer to me than some of my friends who are local.

I have grown as a musician and songwriter by paying attention to the multitude of styles displayed on this site.

Some people here should have definitely made it in the music business in a very big way *cough* Mark Kaufman *cough*

Brian is the most energetic and passionate man about music and independent artists that I ever met.

A song is successful in its own rite if it has the ability to "move you".

Never be afraid to express any idea...even if it's crappy. It's out of the crap that a beautiful idea grows and becomes a great song.

Most importantly, as our "Big Daddy" says, "We're all in this together!" Help eachother, learn from eachother, work together, pay it forward.

what they said..glyn

Dan,

I'd say you've picked up quite a few things. As far as your first three, nothing unsolicited is that good an idea. When it comes to criticism, that is a pretty sticky issue because a lot of people just want "validation" and not really criticism. When you are being criticized by a lot of people either you don't know or people that seem to know less than you, it is a little tough to take.

A lot has to do with the way it is offered. Too many people try a confrontational style and no one likes to be challenged by people they don't really know. Much of sites like these are about getting to know people. So that when critiques or observations come in, it makes a little more sense.

As far as what I know, sometimes I don't know what I know, seems like not much. But I have been around a long time, and know a lot of people who do know a lot. I try to get as much as I can from them. Hope it helps.

Glad you are around. Ask if you need anything.

MAB

I don't know about that Marc. One of the reasons for this site is to educate writers, help them grow, and become a better writer. Write stronger songs.
It's not just a place to post your songs and get patted on the back.
That is not what CRITIQUES are for. It isn't meant to be negative CRITICISM. There is a difference.

Of course some folks will not be too happy if you critique their song. If they don't want it critiqued they should say so up front. IN BIG RED LETTERS because if the song sucks I won't be one to pat you on the back and say "good job"
I don't agree with unsolicited REWRITES. Some folks like to take someone else's song and completely rewrite the lyric. I think that is presumptuous and wrong.

But to tell someone they have written a good song when they have not is not helping them at all.

First, I'd like to personally say "Welcome!" to you, Dan.

I used to be here on these boards...a lot of the various boards...several hours each day. Things have changed in my life such that that isn't possible these days. That's probably why I missed you coming aboard. However, I hope to be here more regularly very soon.

I've been a member here almost 10 years and, as I said, I was very active up unitl several months ago. As far as your observations, I think they are mostly valid.

You just have to be somewhat familiar with the various songwriters in order to know how to approach them the way they would like to be be approached/critiqued. Everyone has a different level of sensitivity and "ownership" of what he/she has written.

Bill Robinson is one of my best friends, both here at JPF and on a personal basis. Bill and I are very honest with one another when we critique each other. If I told Bill "Hey Bill, sorry, but this one just doesn't pass the test...needs lots of help", he wouldn't be the least bit offended. He'd simply ask me where the problems were, in my opionion, and if I had any suggestions to improve them. And the same would be true the other way around. I have other friends here who would be somewhat put out if they were addressed in a like manner. So, I feel there is no right or wrong answer...just a little knowledge of whom you are approaching.

Everyone is going to take a little something different from his/her experiences here and offer a little something different with their own contributions. I do agree with Bill that folks should give us an idea of the type of critique they would like.

Oh, as far as Polly...she is such a sweetheart...and talented as hell, too! There aren't many styles she can't sing and make it convincing. And I always enjoy hearing her comments. You are correct about MAB's working knowledge of the business, particularly the Nashville scene, and his generosity in sharing it with us. And yep, Mike Downing is a great talent!

Again, welcome aboard and pour your heart into your music. Best of luck with your music.

Alan

Hey Al
Good to see you drop in. You know where I live.
Keep me posted.

Alan and Bill,

you are actually hitting on something here that is what we esentially do in Nashville. Peer and publishers always give pats on the back publically,then when you have private time, you share critiques, opinions and more "realistic" things in private.

I think encouragement is very important. But it can't be just blindly "That is a really good song." that helps no one. Being specific is the key when it comes to critiques.But there is a time and place for it.

For me, that is when people should make use of the PM factor. There is no use in getting in arguments or hurt feelings in the larger public, when you can do it much more quietly and specifically in private.

So it should be a combination. A public pat on the back and privately a little more realistic.

MAB

Marc
I agree with that when you can meet face to face or in a Critique "Group" session
But here the folks only see the printed page. A critique or suggestion doesn't help anyone but the writer if it's done in a PM.
When I first came here I spent as much time reading the critiques of other people's songs as I did my own.

I haven't spent much time on the lyric forums the past year but when I did we helped each other improve. Have things changed?
Of course there was always someone who would get offended if you tried to offer suggestions. They usually didn't stick around very long.

If you do a critique session workshop you don't take the writers in the back room and critique their song, you do it in the open for everyone to hear. That's a teaching mechanism.
Why would you do it here?
The lyrics on the lyric forums are a group effort to help each other learn.

There shouldn't be any arguments. If you don't want a critique don't post the song.
Actually the MP3 boards are not really meant for critique. I think the main purpose there is to show off finished songs or songs you consider finished.
Of course some folks do ask for feedback.
I have attended critique nights in Nashville from Publishers and other writers. I can assure you the Publishers at the NSAI nights did NOT give pats on the back if the song sucked. They might have been gentle but you still got spanked.

Will do, Bill! I still plan on being there on August 20th. If no one else shows up, well, guess we can swap lies and play & write a little music. Diana will probably be coming with me...not sure but it's very likely.

Later...

Al

Marc-Alan...

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head. In so many words, play nice in public and be honest in private...just be honest in a respectful way. As always, sage adevice from you.

Al

MAB is absolutely right. It's something I learned a long time ago but occasionally forget. Praise should be shouted from the rooftops. Correction should be done in private.

I love it when folks crit my lyrics,songs..I need help getting mine in better shape, at times the suggs may not be the way I've wanted the song to go, but it always gives me a better insight of what that lyric could be..

and what iv'e learned here is that JPF's care about others, help others when it feels the bottom has fell out of the earth, and when i'm down, not once have I not been made to feel better and left smiling...I feel I have friends on here, from all over the world, and I feel close to these friends, even though I have not met them, they are always here for me, not matter what I need..

This is a group of wonderful loving people and i'm honored and proud to be a member here..

when I found out I had cancer, here is where polly, gus, little stevie, drifter, were up with me all hours of the night and day, made me feel like I was on top of the world, removed my fears, helped me to move on and gave me something else to do but feel sorry for myself...

Everyone from all parts of the world helped me pay for doctor bills, chemo, and gave me a reason to keep my head up...

I wanted a guitar to sing my lyrics with when i'm writing and bingo, it was at my door....thank you again Bill...

Where else can anyone find this kind of love and emotions...

yes, i've learned alot here and here is where I want to stay, this is my second family and I truly love everyone on here, can't mention all of you cause i'd have the whold forum listed....

I have learned so much, not only writing songs, music, but i've also learn what it means to be a friend...cause all of you have shown me what a true friend is...and i'll NEVER ever the rest of my life forget any of you.......

and i'm getting older as we all are, and I still need more test done, but good news is...i'm only getting to work 1 or 2 days a week,but i'm going full time in Sept and i'll have insurance again, so let the test begin.....

Thank all of you for being here for me and letting me find and learn the kind of love that each of you have....i'll always love each of you here....glyn

WRT to critiques, one of the best steps IMHO is when posting the song for critiquing, the owner should state his position clearly. Examples follow:

This has been demoed and will not be revised.
I just wrote these lyrics and would accept all suggestions.
Here is a rough recording. Anything is changeable at this point.
I want to pitch this song to someone who sounds like Tom Petty - how am I doing?
Is the bridge additive?
Does the melody sound like modern country to you?

Then if you address his question in the critique, you should not be stepping on toes.

So you don't think people should be posting their lyrics in the three lyric forums for critique?

What do you do? Read the lyric and if it is badly written, has terrible meter, and full of overused cliches, do you say Good job? Wonderful lyric, you need to go spend a few hundred bucks and get it demoed? It's bound to be a hit?

Or don't say anything because you can't say anything nice? Either way you validate the lyric.

Then a new writer comes in, reads all those high rooftop praises of crap and thinks OK that's how to write a song.

I'd suggest you don't attend a Nashville NSAI publisher critique night unless you have a perfect lyric and a very thick skin. You will be sorely disappointed. You'll be in a room with about 75 other wishful writers. Nothing private about that.

Bill, I enjoy reading your contrarian views. But you're right about staying away from NSAI Nashville critiques. I probably should. Maybe I'll post a new song in the MP3 forum instead.

I'm with Bill when it comes to critiques...a board that is specifically meant to critique songs should include pros and cons, strengths and weaknesses. If my song sucks, I NEED people to say it sucks...ideally in a respectful way. I don't want an inbox full of pain and darkness, with all the love on the surface.

It's very difficult to tell someone what you DON'T like...it takes courage and it takes tact. I sure hope we don't turn this board into a softsoap exercise of post, praise, post, praise. I love compliments as much as anyone, but I learn more from the stuff people notice that doesn't work. Anyone posting a song for feedback needs to take deep breaths and develop a thick skin...and should learn how to thank the people who distress them with a negative opinion, because those people are offering a valuable gift, even if it sometimes feels like a slap in the face.

Oh, and Polly---stop it!

Dan
There is a NSAI chapter in Kalamazoo. I didn't find out about it until I had already made my plans to move to Tennessee. I never attended one of their meetings. But had I stayed I would have.
Believe me I got a rude awakening when I attended my first critique.
But what the heck, I asked for it.

Well Mark
Unfortunately I usually look at one of your songs and say
"Damn, another good one. Doesn't this guy ever write a skunk."

Honestly I usually do like just about everything you do and rarely find anything to nit. There's some, but they are minor.

If I lived in that Frozen North County you called home I would seek you out for writing and playing music.

Yeah, the critique subject comes up here often, maybe not often enough. I agree with Bill, state your intentions with the song. If you want to know about commercial viability, the critiquers should offer an honest assessment.

Lots of folks here (including myself) just want others to hear the song. That's when the back patting happens. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't see a problem with being honest if the song is out of whack, even if the poster didn't ask for it.

Sometimes I write a song just for the sake of writing, and don't have future plans or dreams for it. I have that type of song on the MP3 board right now. It's a "here it is, do you like it"? type song. If I wanted to get serious about it and try to sell it, I would indicate so.

We do have people here who I don't want to name, who do give honest critiques. It's a two way street. Be honest enough and unafraid to write what you really believe, and if you're on the receiving end, grit your teeth and be ready for the truth in others eyes. Even the best music has some flaws in another persons mind.

When the consensus has a high (honest) positive, the song may be ready for the next level.

Bill, I was in the local NSAI chapter when it was located in Marshall and Battle Creek. James Oliver ran it and Greg Brayton helped out. Great guys. Brayton's a musical phenom, runs his own studio in Coldwater.

I never saw any blood-letting during the critiques. I'd drifted away from NSAI by the time the Kalamazoo chapter got going and the heavy artillery arrived. I know Rene Meave was in it. Great guitarist who'd won quite a bit of acclaim regionally playing in an act called Los Banditos - I think. A Tex-Mex border sound.

Frankie Ballard was also a member before he headed off to Nashville to take his shot at the big time. He's done pretty well for himself, landing a staff songwriting deal and a Sony Record deal. I know Marc Barnette has been mentoring him.

I used to occasionally send in a song to the NSAI critique service. They were tougher on the songs, but pretty generous, too.

I don't mean to say folks should be negatively critical on songs. I have seen some critiques where the person was downright rude and nasty. That is never called for. There is a right way and a wrong way to do it.
Being positive and encouraging the person is what is needed.
When I first came here I knew nothing about writing songs. I have learned a lot from the critiques I have received. I still have a lot to learn but I am improving. But I don't want anyone to tell me I have written a good song if I have not.

I think there is a certain point in your writing where you have learned all the basics. Structure, forms, rhyme schemes, etc.
Then you have to learn how to tell a good story in song form. That's the hard part.
I don't think anyone can really teach that. It is something you have to develop over time.
Some folks can spin a good yarn without knowing song structure. They write poetry or prose. Neither make a good song but you can tell a heck of a story with either.

That's where critiques are valuable. To help a person learn how to turn those stories into songs.

If I am going to take the time to listen to a song and read along with the lyrics (I mostly hang out in MP3 land), I am going to do my best to offer my honest opinion (and it is just an opinion). Sometimes, I might just point out one thing.

However, all this peer-peer critiquing does work better if you get to know the person (and their style) on the other end. I also might tread carefully with first time visitors to the site (but sometimes not -- ha, ha). Some folks don't want critiques -- they just want you to tell how great they are. And if you don't see their genius, you're an idiot. All in all, I give my best shot at a good, solid opinion -- knowing full well that I could be wrong or have a 100% different opinion than all the other critiquers. If they take offense, I probably won't bother with their stuff in the future.

Quick note on the MP3 board: I don't post much on the lyric boards, so my MP3 postings are always first drafts. I expect to change the songs a lot as time moves along. The problem is that is a lot of work to change a song, so if I don't change "that" tune, I'll still use the review for the next song -- and there is always the "next" song.

Kevin

Hey guys,

Interesting you mention the Kalamazoo NSAI group. A lot of activity has come out of there. But I'll tell you how they did it.

I have been a mentor to members of the 110 NSAI chapter workshops for 11 years. I have traveled to 75 of them, and have relationships with almost all of them through their coordinators and members who come to Nashville and seek me out through my consults, workshops and private tours. They are pretty much my life.

Out of all of those about 5 stood out over the years, in talent, enthusiasm and desire to actually do something. That big something was to find ways to bring me up there financially more than once a year. Once that was done, I could help them there then when they came to Nashville, I could help drive their careers here.

Unfortunately, I am not a charity or "not for profit". I have to be paid. That is part of having the "drive not just the dream. That is putting your money where your mouth is and doing it in a focused manner.

In the case of all of them, they had members who had a little more drive than others. Those took the meetings to the next plataeu and met on their own. I helped guide those as well.

The Orange County group of 45 regular members, formed the "Breakout group." This was five guys and five girls, who met every two weeks.They formed a dummy publishing company.they elected a president and then each week had an assignement. They wrote to paintings, current artists, book titles, wrote songs for each other by doing research on the styles of songs they wrote,etc.

Each week brought them together first for critiques.Which were brutal. I wrote quite a few of the "assignments and know how hard they were. They gave each other grades and wrote private notes on lyric sheets. They used an egg timer to limit how long the discussion could go. Once the timer dinged at 5 minutes,the next song rolled into play. I do this in all the groups. If you have similar comments on each sheet, with people saying the same things, you look at that. If it is random comments, you go with your gut.

At the end of each night, the best song got this trophy, a really dumb pelican with a clock in it's belly. It was stupid but you got to wanting the bird. I think I won it twice on songs I wrote but they never let me bring it back to Nashville. damn it. Those Californians. LOL! They had to bring it back the next session.

After two years of doing this, (and they had about 30 other people wanting in but they had to limit space but did show others how to do it. No one did.) they started the quarter 16 weeks, by throwing in $100 each. At the end of the period the top two writers with the most consistant grades, got $600 each to pay for a demo.Which I produced here.

I had similar but not as intense things going on in Cincinatti Ohio, and Green Bay Wisconsin. Out of the Green Bay group came Julie Moriva, who is primary writer and big sister and adviser to Steel Magnolia, the fastest rising duo in the history of country music. Julie got a publishing deal with Taylor Swift's company.

Out of those three groups we formed the OCC writing group.Which featured six members of each group. 18 people in all. They are represented by Sharp Objects Music in the most inexpensive songplugging arrangement in America. They come in once a year (three weeks ago) to have a writing conference weekend, meet with hit writers, publishers and artists, (this year was Jamie Johnson) and pitch songs.

The Kalamazoo group has three coordinators and two of them are shall we say, self motivated. It is very much about them, and while they do try to help,in my opinion they don't quite do as much as they need to. You have to give whether it helps you or not.

That is Rene Mauve.A Mexican artist,with a tremendously well known Tex Mex Tejano band, Los Bandits, really wanted to tap into the American writing market.That is what he wants to do.Rene always found the money to get me there.He put me up in his house. He made sure I had private appointments.

One of those people was Frankie Ballard.A Blues guitar player, he just wanted to "ride on a bus" and play guitar. But he had no writing chops. After working with me for six months, writing songs, meeting hit writers, Walt Aldrich got him signed to Sony Music who got him a record deal with Warner Brothers. He is on the road now. Sixteen of the songs I have written with him are at Sony. Three of those feature Rene, who now sees the president of the company each time he comes to Nashville and plays songs.And those songs most of the time have me on them.

Two weeks ago he brought Shelagh Brown,a young very attractive great singer, who is a member of the Chili Peppers, Rene's version of the breakout group. They get together once a week to write.There are six of them. With ten wanting to get in. You have to be accepted and prove yourself first.

Shelagh so impressed Troy Tomilinson the head of Sony, he is starting to put her in some sessions and do the same thing he did with Frankie. She could be the next big thing out of Kazoo.

The point is that it takes going "beyond" the NSAI meetings, or the occassional trip to Nashville.It takes helping others.Constantly working on your craft. Always meeting and being out there. Always put yourself in proximaty of being in position of doing something.

Pretty much every hit writer and producer in this town are doing some version of this.And through that is where the next Taylor Swift's, Justin Bieber, or Jeffery Steel and Craig Wiseman come from.

This is about constant work and building relationships. Face to face and never ending. Both in your own areas and in a music center. The problem I have with all these Mail in services, pitch companies, film libraries, etc. is that they don't do that. They are competing with that. And the people who do those kinds of things with that kind of dedication, are the ones who write the more in the pocket songs, the ones who meet the future stars on their way up. They know the quality of the demos needed and the face time to get known.

The pitch services represent demos and songs that are often not as good, as well represented and have no personal relationships. Without those, there is nothing. Period, nada, nothing. And that is the element that everyone else is missing.

I don't.

MAB

when I am viewing a music post/song.
I really like to say something nice/positive about it first,and then ( if needed) offer a suggestion or two on what I think might make it better, always in a positive constructive way.
and I appreciate it when people give me good constructive critisim as well. we all want to do the best we can.

hiYa New Brother Dan!

It's always a Good Sign when our newer Members offer Crits of The System. Partly because there's No Such Thing as a "Perfect System".

Like Al David, I've been here over a Decade..built-up many a friendship/alienated a few 'cuz I'm "guilty" of usually tellin' it like it is..& on to the next crit. (& yeah, IF I see a lyric that JMO needs "Major Rewrite" to head into that "Commercial" Category, yep, I'll sometimes offer a Total Rewrite..on a "Keep or Sweep" Basis. Which occasionally leads to an unexpected co-write..& prolly just as often results in "The Offended" wishing I'd just Mind My Own Business.)

But..It's always interesting to note how SOME posters are doing these Lyrics/Songs "just for fun"...vs SOME really ARE in it for the "Business" part. (And, trust me, it takes more than 11 days to sort 'em all out.)

Which..sometimes leads to that Inevitable "Zero" that most posters dread. (&, which I, as a critic, always dread leaving-behind.)

I'm not a musician..so I rarely visit the MP3 Boards..sorry. I'm not even a very-successful Lyricist, as cuts & connections go...so all I CAN offer is One Man's Take on what I just read & it's offered as just that.)

As for the "Keep Quiet" part...I dunno about that. There's a big-enough difference between Lambasting someone for an error..and Gently pointing it out. (There's also a growing awareness that A Lot of Crap manages to GET cut, too..so WHY be Overly-Picky...)

Navigating all the Egos-Involved is, of course, an Art unto itself. Thanks for your (pretty astute) observations, Amigo.

I've enjoyed 'em, even when they stung. Keep up the Good Work, & if I failed to do it earlier, "Welcome Aboard!"

Best Wishes & a Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

I ADORE spankings! *Note to self...gotta hang out at NSAI!!!*

Thank you, Al, for your wonderful "critique" of my voice (see, that's the kind I can take! )

No Kaufman, I will NOT stop it, not till I'm driving around hearing you on the radio!

MAB, you're the most generous man I know when it comes to giving your time and advice on the music industry. And Dan's right, you ARE funny!

Glyn, isn't it wonderful how we've become "sisters" from belonging here? (and isn't it great to find a place where you finally FEEL like YOU BELONG???)

I just love you all to pieces!!! (((GROUP HUG)))

Polly,

I will remember to spank you next time I see you.Thanks for that.

Bill, I think we are talking about two different things. It is one thing when you attend a professional, workshop, critique,
where there is a person of a certain level of skill or reputation in that specific business, and general information with peer groups. You do have to consider the source and opinion.

With everyone they make observations based upon their own biases. But they are just opinions. I myself listen to songs almost continually. Often I am making points on them based upon my own likes and dislikes. But my opinion is formed by listening to hundreds of songs and at the same time I have heard the people in the industry who make the decisions. That goes into what you hear on the radio. So it is about informed decisions.

On many "peer to peer" reviews, as these kinds of things are many people don't know how to do that. So a lot of personal messages get through.

That is what I suggest in the "private messages" areas on places like this.That would be where I would put the more critical comments. Then be pleasant among the general populace.

That would be my suggestion.

MAB

I've been asking for that since my second review here, that was about a thousand or more review's ago.

I even posted it for newcomers(probably needs to be a sticky thread) but very few do it. So I CAN"T review/critique songs like I used to. One reason is I can't spend 40 minutes or an hour thinking about someones song and after I do.....

1- They never come back to the thread
2- They tell me "I'm a real estate agent and write songs for fun.
3- It doesn't really matter, everybody loves this song when I play it"
4- This song was about my grandfather
5- This song was about my cat or dog
6- This song was for my wife
7- This song was for my son or daughter
8- "People" like this song so why change it
9- I wrote this whole thing today and finished it
10 - You just HAVE to say something critical about the song because your being a critic.

Those are some...

Some people will at least write "Any suggestions are welcome"

I agree with Bill,

Right out in the open. This way EVERYBODY learns and participates.
If someone can't take it they need to go play High school, College or PRO FOOTBALL or something. Oh wait coaches don't criticize or teach you in the open, they PULVERIZE you in the open.

This is a business as well as competition. When I use to spar I did not want people holding back.

I always save my private talks for those who I stick up for even when i know there wrong.
In other words your my friend or a loved one, I'll never take a strangers side over you, I'll always stand by you. Then two seconds later when we are alone, I'll turn to you and say
"What the hell were you thinking"!! What's da matta wit you!!!

That's my mentality, it's based on an often lost word "Loyalty"

The key word is CONSTRUCTIVE" constructive criticism.

Stan, Sharla, Ben, Colin, Kevin,Marc, Bill, Glynda Mike, Al and Polly,

Nice meeting all of you and thanks for the big welcome to a stranger. What I like are all the different perspectives and opinions you can find here. That and the focus on the songs and music.

If I get out of line, just give me a whack on the head (figuratively speaking, since this is a writer's forum).

Hi Dan,

Great post! Things can quickly get a bit 'homey' and business as usual around here, so it's great to get a cold facewash to freshen up once in a while.

We could certainly use more Dr. Phil's that would 'tell us like it is', after all we're still a bunch of kids playing with toys, with neanderthal minds.

Trouble is, Dr. Phil types, mostly harass folks for their own pervert pleasure, and the few civilized ones, stay away from saying real things in public forums, because it more often than not, bites you back in the end. No artist really wants to look bad, and a hard critical approach to others may do just that, so we're all artists in here :-)

That's one reason why paid one on one critiques and mentors are still valuable sources for learning, despite all the free forum space for songwriters on the Internet..

Magne, Let's never let Dr. Phil on this forum!! If he knows as much about songwriting as he does mental health, his contribution would be NIL. He's not even a Doctor, for pete's sake.

Marc, I await yer spankin'!

Bill, I wanted to say that earlier in this thread, you said, "It's not constructive to tell people their song is good if it isn't." Something of that nature. Who decides whether a song is good or not? Who's opinion is worth more? Brian says, "if the song MOVES YOU..."

Glynda Duncan's "Step to the Side" moved me A LOT!!! It moved every woman I played it for as well. Curiously, men hated it...because it made them out to be assholes. MAB and I argued about the song for 2 days. He obviously knows a lot more about songwriting than I do, but the song moved me so much, I couldn't let it go. I STILL believe in the song, and so do my friends. If we go by Brian's criteria, the song is a hit. If we go by MAB's criteria, it's not commercially viable. The thing is, people here, for the most part, are JUST PLAIN FOLKS, we don't deal with publishers and record companies every day. So when we evaluate a song, we're probably asking ourselves, "Does the song MOVE ME?" In that case, and in that scenario, seeing that someone told someone else they have a good song, even if YOU don't thinks it's a good song, is all subjective. You may think the song sucks scissors, someone else may think it's GREAT and NOT just be a back-patter, like me with the "Step to the Side" song. Sure, I love my Sister G, but I don't go on about EVERY song she writes. This one was very special and NO ONE can tell me that it's not! Who's to say that you are more qualified than I am to judge (at this particular site and under these particular circumstances)?

Polly I do agree songs are subjective. What may move one person might not move another. That is not what I meant by a "good" song.

But if you think we should just praise every song written and say it is fine just as it is I don't see any point to critiques anymore. We might as well shut down the lyric forums and do away with the mentor critique forum.

Polly,

I remember that song very well. And if you remember what I said was that I understood how you liked it and that Glynda had done a very good job on the song. I congratulated her for writing it and was glad that you liked it and for hiring my friend and client Heather Cowles for the demo.That was just fine.

My problem with it and with most songs are that they are written in a vacum. And I can show you how. You should take that song and get out on every single writer's night in the Cincinatti area. You should play it continually. Then see the reaction when it is out among dozens over very similar songs, all saying virtually the same thing.

Then take it to a place, the river, lakes, loud bars, where people are drinking, chasing the opposite sex,talking and partying. Then see what happens.

Where are 90% of our songs being played if they get on the radio or out in the public? In bars, lakes and rivers, seashores, where people are drinking talking and chasing members of the opposite sex.

Then you bring that song to a typical Nashville writer's night where there are 30 writers doing 3 songs each, 90 songs a night, with 70 of them being very similar.

Then pitching the song to Heather Cowles who has 30 songs of her own that are virtually the same song and she has been slammed so many times for those she knows she has to write and sing up tempo and get away from that kind of song.

To publishers who deal with that kind of song every day and already have so many they can't get cut.

Record companies who deal with thousands.

That is what I am talking about. Most songs are just fine if they stand on their own. But they never are just on their own. they are in the middle of millions of songs. So if you can get that one to be loved by millions of people, it achieves what you want.We are all politicians here.If we have songs we believe in, we can get them out there,promote them and build them with every fiber of our being. But we can't force the rest of the world to like us.

Like everything it is all about perspective.

MAB

I can't see any reason to be private when the song appears on an internet forum. To me the moment you perform you masterpiece for an audience of any size and they sit there like they just smelled an elephant fart is far worse than any critique. Getting an honest critique before that moment could save you a lot more pain down the line. Ever read "The Emperor Has No Clothes?"

At the same time, critiques are hard to give and hard to take. It's much easier to simply love a song than it is to tell the creator the problems with his baby.

I do think the idea of the writer posting his intentions are good. If they want a critique, don't give it.

As for me giving critiques, how the heck do I know anything other than what I like? I will never understand how the song "I Got A New Girlfriend" became a number one hit. Likewise I'll never understand why "I'm Moving On" isn't the biggest hit Rascal Flatts ever had.

When I give critiques, which I don't do here very often, I always hear it as I would have written it. I get hung up on little words. I can do it on other people's songs much easier than I can on my own. I try not to rewrite a song because I hate that but I do offer suggestions while at the same time admitting a lot of it is just writer's choice.

If I know the writer is new, I'm more apt to be gentle and comment on general conventions of writing. If I know the writer has Nashville success in mind, I'll be tougher. If they're in Nashville, I don't worry about cutting them no slack. I generally don't comment on songs unless they move me in some positive way. Just because they move me in a positive way though, it doesn't mean I won't critique it. I could probably find something in any song except Sunday Morning Coming Down to dislike.

I remember one time telling someone their song was probably the best I've ever heard from "internet writers." The discussion continued and the writer was criticizing every negative comment so I gave a few negative comments of my own. They thought I was lying when I said it was probably the best. I wasn't lying, I was just so impressed with it that I the positives outweighed the negatives. It was so good and commercial IMO that the only ones really eligible to offer suggestions on improvement were publishers and pluggers in Nashville. But I also feel if you put it up and don't tell people not to critique it, don't get angry when they do. Never get upset with a critiquer unless they systematically diss your songs simply out of spite.

One more thing, if someone says the song has some especially personal meaning to them, I don't ever critique it harshly.

One of these days I'll post a song here and if you tell me it's bad I'll either (1) whip yall's u-no-wot or (2) cry like a baby.

Marc, I completely understand what you're saying, but remember when you said, "No idea is new...you just have to find a different way to express it." I felt Glyn did that with this song, so much so that my women friends went NUTS over it! Women are 70% of the music buying public. We DON'T always want good time, rowdy, drinkin' songs. Sometimes we want to hear an "angry chick song" (as you call them ) so we can identify and heal the hurt that is inside of us. That's how WE process. So when a song called "Step to the Side" comes along, and delivers the angry chick speech better than any I've ever heard, of course MEN are going to HATE IT, and MEN are dominant in the music industry, but WOMEN love it and I say they would buy it if there was a way to market it to them.

However, I will take your advice and play it at open mics, even get my band to play it, and play it at rowdy meat market bars too (with a spoken intro of course ) and report back to you what happens. Of course I'll have so much anger and emotion tied up in the performance, it'll probably get all the men and women arguing and all the "would-be hookups" for the night will suddenly become defunct, BUT, the women will be empowered and go home to their handy dandy battery-operated boyfriends.

I have a brilliant idea for a video of that song that would make it a number one hit! It involves a battered wife becoming someone involved in an empowered career. Can't say more than that...you'll see it on the video forum someday!

Mark Kaufman is God. *Did I just say that out loud?*

Sausagelink, when someone critiques me negatively, I sulk, I cry, then I make up a voodoo doll to the likeness of their avatar and put it in my deep fryer. But I'm not sensitive or anything.

Bill, of course if a song is piss poor we shouldn't say, "Great job! Way to go!" We all know what a piss poor song is. That's not subjective, it sucks scissors by ANYONE'S opinion! Those are the kind I usually don't leave a comment on, because there's nothing that can fix it. It sucks, if there was a way to fix it, it would be mediocre at best, so, what's the point? Now, don't anyone get paranoid because I haven't left a crit on your song....been BUSY lately (2 jobs, unruly daughter, etc.) I rarely have time to leave a crit anymore so I only do it on songs that catch my eye from the title and end up being appealing to me.

What I DO think is that constructive criticism is best served politely and gently. Why? Because a song is like someone's baby. We all know that feeling...you write a song and you LOVE IT SO MUCH, you think it's the greatest song ever, and you're so proud to post it, like a new parent posting baby pics, and then someone comes along and bluntly rearranges it and takes away lines and doesn't like the bride...it's like my friend Janet Snow says, "They're amputating your baby". Yep. People's original songs (most of them) are actual life experiences, the baring of souls. Be encouraging and gentle. Especially to newcomers who are nervous about posting stuff. Be constructive, but be NICE and REASONABLE about it. Bear in mind that this is someone's BABY, so to speak. Don't call it ugly or disfigured, just suggest that they did a good job birthing the baby, but it might need a minor surgery to two to become appealing.

Polly, Where can I hear "Step to the side?" You've piqued my curiosity. A song the women love and the men hate, I wanna hear.

Sausage,

You are probably right but the reason I suggest caution before you know people is because of a few people we have had here who do that whole "What do you think' business, then launch on the verbal counter attack constantly on anything said. I break writers down to three catagories:

Crumudgeons.
These are people who have been around a long time and want to talk about how everything was "in their day." They also talk down everyone that has a different opinion than there's. It is right up there with a brick wall as how effective dialogue is.

Validators:
These are people that claim they want feedback but then challenge everything about the feedback.And they get personal in their attitudes. What starts out in a very decent dialogue ends up in confrontation, and nasty feelings. Part of their entire make up is that they don't get much attention in their lives, their songs are never accepted because they are generally very disconnected from other forms of music. They are a lot of living room writers and write in a vacum. They want people to "validate" them and tell them how good they are and how everything they do is perfect. Anything less than that is "beneath them."

Everybody else:
Most people who actually participate in writers events, web sites, workshops, etc. are really open minded, just into it for the networking, friendship, and genuine back and forth. These people are fine with critiques and take it for the spirit intended.

This is most of the people here. We all know each other. We all have varying degrees of experience and always know we can learn from others and are willing to share opinions and experience.

The people that fall into the last category don't have a problem with open critiques. The people in the first two wouldn't care about them no matter what you did. I would just prefer allowing them reasons to air the dissagreements in the general public.

MAB

Polly,

Why doh't you just use the Dixie Chicks "Goodbye Earl video or the "Martina McBride's Independence Day" Videos? Would save you the money.

I am never going to win this argument nor am I going to try. But I can pretty much prove it to you anytime you want to come down to Nashville and see it for yourself.

But get out and do it. That is great. I'll love to hear from you. Oh by the way, did you catch the stat that women, while accounting for 70% of the overall music sales, perchase less than 20% of female sung product? Might be a handy piece of advice to have.

MAB

Dan, here it is...listen to the lyric! http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=8168231&q=hi&newref=1

Iffin the link doesn't work, go to:

www.soundclick.com/songsbyglyn and click on "all 58 songs by this artist" and scroll 'til you come to "Step to the Side"

I've talked to Glyn about giving this the full band treatment and singing it with some "pissed offedness". Not to take away AT ALL from Heather (she's my fave singer here). Heather came up with the melody and her beautiful voice did it justice. She did the guitar/vocal demo which is all Glyn wanted at the time, to bleed it out, but I hear a full band, lots of accents, a lead, etc. I just want to take it up a notch and kick in some balls!

"...and tonight I'm gonna ride....tonight I'm gonna riiiiide...step to the side!"

Marc, 20% of upteen million works for me! BTW, my vid idea is waaaaay different than those. It's REALLY good! No, you'll never win the argument because I am passionate about the song, and therefore RIGHT! Just kidding, I love ya, I know you're frustrated and believe that I'm delusional, but hey, crazy people make it in music every day!

Dan, iffin you don't like the song I'm going to make a voodoo doll in your likeness and deep fry it!

Polly, You've got my likeness in my avatar. Just make sure it looks like him.

No can do, bro'! Can't fry a baby! I went to your Myspace...I KNOW what you look like...mwahahahahahaha!

Polly, I've seen a statistic that most of the divorces these days are initiated by wives. Sounds like that's what this song is about. Doesn't seem like a feminist manifesto to me. Just a worn out woman tired of a loveless or abusive marriage (had a little trouble hearing all the lyrics). My guess is a lot of woman would nod their heads in acknowledgement as they listened to it.

Nothing that I find offensive. Is Marc just saying it's not hit song material?

*plugs in the deep fryer*

The thing about the song is that she is expressing her experience in a way that is DIFFERENT than I've heard in other songs (like Carrie Underwood's "Next Time He Cheats" or Dixie Chicks "Earl" or any of the other scores of "angry chick" country songs I've heard.

This song isn't about "getting even". It's about a woman's declaration of independence (not like "Independence Day" by Martina McBride where she actually killed herself and him). It's a bold move by a woman who was brutalized and subdued by an abusive man, and decides to STAND UP TO HIM and tell him, "I'm outta here, just TRY to stop me!" A very powerful message for any woman who was ever in that situation (and unfortunately, there are a LOT of them!) Do you know how hard it is to leave someone who has previously convinced you that you are nothing more than his maid, cook and whore....and he might KILL you if you try to leave? Of COURSE you don't!

Of COURSE a man wouldn't relate to it or find it special, any more than I would relate to a song about prostate cancer, but it's got a market! Trust me!

Picture this song with a full band treatment, a really PISSED OFF vocal, and a kick ass video! I wish I could tell you the video idea, it would really sell the song (but I can't! I could, but then I'd be shot! )

I think amateur songs may be 'subjective', but pro songs are way less subjective than you think. Right off the bat there are just a bunch of things you can't do and things you have to do. The 'subjective' part in the pro game of songwriting is that people have different tastes, even with PERFECTLY written songs. So the fact that there always are some 'subjectivity' involved, doesn't mean that anything goes. It means that even the most meticiously crafted masterpiece may be disliked and miss out when singles are selected, while it still maintains it's status as an undeniable commercially viable song!

Playing live may give you some responses, but they respond mostly to YOU as the artist, and your audience may not have anything in common with the audience of the artists you are pitching the song to. Nashville supermentor Ralph Murphy offers a great perspective on this. An audience will accept almost anything if they have beer, and have chosen to go out with friends for a good time. But commercial songs has to work even when people have not selected to hear that song, or are out for a good time. Commercial songs has to work in the car, with people driving off to work, wanting only to hear the local news and weather forecasts. Commercial songs are supposed to grab and maintain the listeners interest in that context, changing their mind and attitude. That's a whole different ballgame.

Therefore, creating publisher interest includes that everybody loves the song AND adhere to the commercial song criteria for great communication.

There's just no way around that, if you are interested in backing your high hopes with something substantial.

And that fact is actually very positive and encouraging. It means that writing great songs is something you can learn to do, with a combination of talent and skill. 'Talent' means courage and integrity and 'skill' means the will to do your homework and use that knowledge in conjunction with your talent.

That's why folks like MAB, Harriet, Mike D and Mike C and many others, are offering REAL pathways to success, if you will provide your talent and skill (in the meanings above) :-)

nocentsinvolved

Polly,

I don't have to picture it. I hear it around 25-30 times a night every writer's night out there.

There is always another option. You could do a You Tube video. If it is as strong as you say it is, that could create a viral sensation.

I know this song is special to you and that is the best thing that any song can do,move us. But you have to have perspective and that is what I think you don't have. Just because you haven't heard them doesn't mean they are not everywhere.

About 5 years ago I had two women doing one of my tours.One was a performer who wanted live performance suggestions. The other was a non-performer. As I got into song critiques and went through what one had, the non-performer didn't say anything. After a while I said "Look you are paying me for this, don't you want play a song?" She said "No, my ideas are very unique and I hear people in Nashville steal them."

I said "Well, in my experience that is a myth and we are all writing the same stuff. So I'm willing to bet it has been done."

She argued with me quite a bit then agreed to play a song. It was one that she had never played "for anyone."

She did it and it was as cliched' and contrived as anything I had heard. and I told her so.
She got defensive and argued with me until I decided to discontinue that discussion. I worked with the other one.

The performer's goal was to cull down her songs to her best two and then perform them on a writers night. I had booked myself on one and will get the performers up with me so they don't have to wait in line.

As we went to the writer's night and sat down the host came over and asked when we wanted to go up. I said that they were from Lexington Ky. and needed to see something before they went back so to put a round up before us.

We sat down and ordered food and drinks. The first guy in the first round, started his first song. The opening line was virtually identical to the one the woman had. The second one was identical to her second one, the third, the fourth, getting into the chorus, the chorus and the pay off. The title was the same. it was the same song, and this woman had never played hers for anyone.

As she sat there open mouthed, and turned to me, I said "Welcome to Twang Town."

It happens almost every tour I do with someone.They have ideas and songs they think have never been done in just that way. And they have. If you write things in an emotional manner you are going to write something that has been done for years and thousands of times. There is no way to avoid it,like the shark in Jaws. We write the same emotions, the same settings. Most music is exactly the same, just twists on it. There are only 12 notes.

That is why this is so hard.

But for anyone that has that one song that they believe in, there are always recording studios, You Tube,My Space,Facebook,
web sites,etc. That is what the Internet is for. To get songs, poetry, books, creative endeavors out there.

MAB