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Florida
by bennash - 06/07/26 09:34 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,943 Likes: 3
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...Don't post a lyric or mp3 file that you aren't open to criticism and aren't willing to change. Now, for anyone who has suggested during critiques that we remove a line here or a line there or change the FORM of the song, that’s not really possible. I don't know -- if you had no intentions of changing anything, then why post it? However, it was nice to see a tight, well crafted song and I think Harriet enjoyed exposing us to some mighty fine writing. In the end, though, the song seemed about 5 minutes long to me. If it is a cut for an artist -- then major congratulations from me. I think you are all are a top notch team and I expect to hear some radio cuts in the future. Kevin
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What we have in Mr Reuter's post is a text book explanation of the approach to write a modern country hit song.
If no one has noticed they did an outline and story board of the song before they ever wrote a line. They wrote for a specific artist, with a specific song (goal) in mind.
Given that, he formed a team with this specific song in mind. He didn't choose a POP or R&B team. He picked people who knew the genre and knew what is current in that genre.
This is the type of approach I have heard about from several top writers.
This is how you write commercially and how you write to get a cut
I don't know music theory at all so much of what David explained is lost on me but you can be sure of one thing.
I am going to listen to this song again and figure it out.
I still think the song was too long (wordy) but that is only my opinion. If it gets cut then we will know I am wrong.
The song was chosen for NSAI's publisher meeting. I'm not sure if changing it is a good idea or not. I guess they will find out.
If the song was written for a specific artist, what happened? Was it rejected and you then submitted it to NSAI? just curious.
Last edited by Bill Robinson; 04/26/10 01:21 PM.
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Posts: 86
Serious Contributor
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Good Morning,
My name is David Reuter, and I’m one of the Co-Writers of this song. First, I’d like to say Thank You to Brian for providing this opportunity and also thank you to Harriet for selecting our song to be used as a teaching tool. I’d also like to say Thank You to everyone who has taken the time to listen to our song and comment.
Rather than getting into a deeper discussion about the “Specific Comments” that everyone has been leaving, I think it might be more beneficial to people here to give them a behind the scenes look at our working methodologies.
A few months ago while I was writing in Nashville, a female artist asked me to write her a Country Song that had “Edge and Attitude.” She was in the process of recording a CD and she was looking for additional material. She was not looking for Pop, Folk or Rock material; she was looking for a Country Song. To me, the FIRST step in writing a Country Song is putting together a “Writing Team,” so I asked Curt and Daniel to join me because they’re easy to work with and because they KNOW Country Music.
I have degrees from the Berklee College of Music in Arranging and Composition and I’ve worked for many years as a guitarist and as an arranger. When I Co-Write a song, I want the RIGHT Co-Writers on that project. When I Co-Write a Country Song, Curt Collins is on the TOP of my list because he knows Country Music Inside and Out. Curt suggested asking Daniel Starr to join us because we’ve had a lot of success working with Daniel on other songs and because Daniel has a wonderful ability to bring out THE BEST in people that he’s working with. We were Honored that Daniel joined us on this project.
To start with, we all knew the Artist so we discussed what she might need or like for material. She gave us a total Free Hand with the Music, with the Song Concept and with the Lyrics.
Now, for anyone who has suggested during critiques that we remove a line here or a line there or change the FORM of the song, that’s not really possible. There are many Country Songs that use exactly this FORM and when you’re writing in ANY Style of Music, it’s important to be VERY AWARE of the Listeners familiarity with Song Forms; especially ones that are “Genera Specific.” The Song Form we selected was a Country Shuffle with a Standard I, IV, V Chord Progression. The Cadences are Pre-Written in this FORM and Working Musicians have literary played this exact Song Form on gigs and sessions thousands of times. It’s been used endlessly in American Country Music since Rockabilly in the 1950s and 60s and it is still used today by top Country Artist. That FORM is “Comforting” to country music listeners and fans because they’re very familiar with it because it connects them to the rich musical traditions within Country Music.
The first challenge we faced was writers was how to remove the dated quality of the FORM and give it a modern flavor without removing its Traditional Roots. We accomplished this by using a Music Techniques called Reharmonization and Augmentation. The FORM of our song is Standard but the Chord Progression is not. If you listen closely, you’ll here non-diatonic Chords introduced throughout the song that give the music a modern Edge. In addition to the conventional I, IV, V we also added bIII, bVII and bVI and Chromatic Bass Lines to modernize the chord progression. In selected areas we added extra bars and extra ½ bars of music to allow the music to pause for a second without losing energy.
Lyrically, we wanted to be able to Recycle the Hook so that it applied to 3 separate events or situations in the narrators life and have “Red Neck Tested Country Girl Approved” credibly apply to all three equally and we selected an Old Truck, a Honky Tonk and a Man and assigned an individual verse to each one. We had chosen a “Standard” 3 Verse Song Form so we knew in advance that we would not be using a Bridge. Our goal lyrically as a team is always to have EVERY image in our writing be new, fresh and original so we included images such as:
Knocking Rods, Missing Tale Gates, Seats Worn Down to the Springs, The Red Neck Scale, Sticky Floors, a Leaning Pool Table, Red White and Blue Collar, A Back Road Pedigree, a shade Tree Mechanic etc.
To us, it is ESSENTIAL to lace our Songs with visual images that have not been heard before. As Co-Writers, we always challenge each other to be Fully Creative and Original with our lyrics and images. If it has been said before in a song, we don’t use it in our songs unless we can use it in a Fresh Way. Our familiarity with existing Song Lyrics within this genre allows us to probe for new ideas in our own songs.
The Lyric Craft in this song is VERY Tight because my Co-Writers and I utilize a blend of Hard and Soft Rhyme Scheme patterns. The internal and external Rhyme Scheme patterns were very challenging to maintain throughout this song.
Let me finish by saying what I am most proud of this song is the Conversational Nature of the Lyrics. I my opinion, the MOST Challenging dimension of writing Contemporary Country Music is writing Lyrics that are Conversational. Writing Poetic Lyrics in Contemporary Country Music just doesn’t work today. It is essential to write Conversational Lyrics. Each and Every line needs to sound like someone could actually be saying it to another person.
“I drive a ’63 Chevy my grandpa gave me it gets me where I wanna go”
To me, the song starts off conversationally and continues on from there. The challenge in today’s marketplace is to write a Fresh Story, with new and unique Images and to also have all the lyrics be fully Conversational.
Thank you for all the ideas, suggestions and comments. We are very grateful and we discuss every comment and suggestion that people leave us. We have a Great Respect for the Critique Process and we will be sure to review every comment in depth during our next writing session.
Sincere Thanks,
David Reuter
dreuter@berklee.net
Dido! What my co-writer said....
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Joined: Jul 2009
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The song was chosen for NSAI's publisher meeting. I'm not sure if changing it is a good idea or not. I guess they will find out.
If the song was written for a specific artist, what happened? Was it rejected and you then submitted it to NSAI? just curious.
Yes, it was TOO country for her. Well, I guess David will explain it better, but I think she didnt want to be pigeon holed into being a "Redneck". She loved it but thought it was a little Too Much for her style. This artist is recording another of our songs already, so we are not upset about this. There are girls out there that wouldnt mind singing it we think. Thanks for your very good post there Bill and to all others, THANKS!
Curt
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One thought I did have on this song that I did not include in my critique was some singers might actually think this song could make them look bad.
Curt explained the artist didn't want to be "Pigeon Holed" with the redneck thing.
I wonder if it meant she thought the song would make her look bad.
Let's face it, this song does make redneck look a bit "lowlife"?
just a thought
Last edited by Bill Robinson; 04/26/10 02:09 PM.
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,706
Helping Hand
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Helping Hand
Joined: Oct 2009
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Howdy All, Gus here. In the interest of learning all we can, I'm
hoping that before we move on, that since I spilled my guts out
with my rewrite above, Could we at least sift thru the pile & see
where my concise version goes wrong, I know there are obvious
weakness' compared to the craft of the authors, but also some
solutions to having a fairly enjoyable similar story, that would
fit in a much wider selection of formats, genders, and more, dare
I say, Mainstream country. C'mon guys this has got to be enough
inflamatory [sp], yet logical statements to stir up some
discussion, HUH??.........LETS YAK THIS OVER......Thanks...Gus
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Joined: Feb 2004
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OK Gus
I'll jump in til they shut this one down
You are asking what is wrong with your rewrite.
IMHO nothing really. Same song different words.
I am not in favor of rewriting someone else's song without permission. But since you did I'll comment on it
I'll only do the first 4 lines My comment will be in parentheses;
Verse:
I drive a ‘63 Chevy my Grandpa gave me it gets me where I wanna go
GRANDPA'S OLD PICKUP, HAULS ME ANYPLACE I GO
(Consider all the images that come out of those first 10 words? It's great. GRANDPA'S OLD PICKUP? no detail, no images, no catchy cadence, meter, or groove to the line. Do you really think this improves it? Sing both lines and see how they roll off the tongue. All you did was shorten the line.)
The tail gate's a missin’ it’s a little hard shiftin’ there’s no knobs on the radio
IT'S TUFF TO SHIFT, OR TUNE IT IN, KNOBS GONE ON THE RADIO
(You have thrown out the image of the tail gate being gone. Why do that? I can not visualize this tuck now. It's tuff to shift? Again try singing "it's a little hard shiftin" and compare the cadence, meter, groove. Do you really think your line sounds better? The only change I would make in that line is remove the word "THERE'S". Why "KNOBS GONE ON THE RADIO?" A simple "no knobs on the radio" is better to my ears. If there's no knobs it's obvious they are gone.
It’s gotta (gotta=Got to)a four-on-the-floor and some rust on the doors and the seats are worn down to the springs
GOTTA (Got a)GRANNY GEAR 4 SPEED,RUSTED OUT DOORS,YOUR BUTT CAN COUNT EVERY SPRING
( again I'm not sure why you think this is better. A Granny Gear Four Speed? I am an old Gear head an I don't know what that means. What I recall a Granny gear being was low,low in a 4 wheel drive. But everyone knows what four on the floor means. Why is RUSTED OUT DOORS better than SOME RUST ON THE DOORS? Then you add. YOUR BUTT CAN COUNT EVERY SPRING. Really? which springs? the suspension when you hit a bump? the seats? Where is the visual here? You are changing an image to a feeling. I think images are much better unless it's a love song)
The rods are knockin’ it has trouble stoppin’ but it’s earned every dent and ding
OLD RODS KEEP KNOCKIN', AIN'T MUCH AT STOPPIN', EARNED ALL
THOSE SCRAPES & DINGS
(again I'll ask why you think those lines are better? All you are doing is saying the same thing different. it's like changing The sun setting to the setting sun. Why is scrapes a better word than dent? You could argue that a dent is the same as a ding but is it really? Not in my mind. The biggest loss here is the DENTS and DINGS ALLITERATION.)
I won't go any further than that on your version.
When I said the song was too long and wordy I meant there were too many lines devoted to the truck, the Bar, and the guy, in each verse. I thought the lines were all great. My problem would have been deciding which ones to cut.
But had I cut them I might have had to change the form.
I would probably end up with a longer first verse, a chorus, shorter second verse, chorus, Bridge, chorus. Which is another country form.
If you read the formula and outline the team developed for this song it dictated the write. They didn't want to change from that discipline.
Now all that I said tells me one thing. We all have opinions and all have different ways of saying things. This was yours and had you written this song and presented it we might have seen a different outcome.
Last edited by Bill Robinson; 04/26/10 08:39 PM.
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Oh, BUT we have NO problem changing it to Country Girl Tested and Country Girl Approved if the singer has an issue with the "Redneck". I actually talked to my co-writers about it wondering if we would turn to many artists off. We decided to be open and flexible with the "Redneck vs Country".
Curt
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Helping Hand
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Helping Hand
Joined: Oct 2009
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YAY Bill, thanks for helping me with continuing my attempt at
helping us learn as much as we can, with this great FORUM.
I rarely re-write somebody's lyric without permission either, but
I considered this only an excersize, so I went ahead.
I went back and double checked to make sure that I never said
anything as ridiculous as me thinking my lyric, which I only
spent 30 minutes streamlining from their lyric, was better, just
more concise. The original lyric is obviously better, in the way
it is so descriptive, with cool inner soft rhymes throughout,&
all the other things you mentioned Bill.
The only suggestion I made that seems like a possible
useable improvement, is the replacement of "Redneck" with
"Backwoods" or "Backroads" since so many commented on redneck,
& redneck is so overused, & strong enough negative that the gal
wouldn't sing it. "Country" isn't strong enough IMHO. It isn't
nearly as descriptive of that particular lifestyle
As for the truck, what I was describing was my actual 63 Chevy
1/2 ton pick up, which I put over 300,000 miles on. Those models
are notorious for doors that rust out, cuz the drains get
plugged and the doors stay full of water forever. The Gearheads I
hang around, & the old farts I grew up around, always referred
to automotive 4 speeds, as a 4 on the Floor, but all truck 4
speeds which all have a compound low, "Granny 1'st gear" were
called "Granny 4's" with pride cuz you had to pay extra over the
3 speed on the tree, Or do like I did, where I got one from the
wrecking yard, had my drive shaft extended, & put it in myself.
I also remember that the horsehair like padding of the seat
wore away, but the vinyl seat cover never tore, etc,so you
couldn't actually see the springs, but after an hour or so you
could count every single one.
Once again, I was just trying to participate in the fullest
fashion I could to show my support for this forum, & try to
stimulate more discussion.................Thanks ....Gus
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AHH Gus I am sorry about my tone. I realize I might have sounded a bit "preachy" I am a little confused then. If you didn't think you were offering a better alternative with those lines why were you posting them? If you were just trying to give example of a different way to say something that's fine. Or trying to write in a different genre I supposed that would be OK too. I wonder what this one would look like if done as a RAP.  That would really be concise. Any discussion on songwriting helps us develop our craft. I am reminded of a saying I once heard. "Practice makes perfect but you must practice perfectly"
Last edited by Bill Robinson; 04/27/10 12:07 PM.
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While I agree with lots of people - everyone, I think - the chosen lyrics are full to the brim of very cool images and inner rhymes, a professional immediate quality and a world apart from what we usually write, I think Gus' lyrics have something the others lack - which may be a flaw in itself but I like it anyway: simplicity and directness.
I very well may make a fool of myself saying this, but I wouldn't say to anyone 'the seats are worn down to the springs' or 'it’s earned every dent and ding'. I agree Gus' lyrics lack in imagery, precision, etc when compared to the others, but I think he's more conversational in tone, which of course is something the writers have wanted too.
Now, before someone tells it to my face, I'll say it first: what do I know? Just a beginner trying to learn something through this wonderful thread ...
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Yann
Conversational lyrics are very important, especially in Country.
Would you say it's "earned every scrape and dent"?
Probably. I might also say "ding and dent" but to be honest I'd more likely say "dent and ding". It seems more "Musical"
Aside from that you lose the Springs/ding rhyme. How would you resolve that?
But what is the difference?
I think it is ALLITERATION. Alliteration is a very effective tool in the craft. It has a bounce to it, a cadence.
Make a Move
Go for Gold
Dent and Ding
Lot's of examples.
Images and actions count.
I don't think the average listener is going to think back to 1963 and try to analyze what type material the seats were made of. But the visual image of the seats being worn down to the springs is more potent than your butt can count every spring. IMHO
Also I'm not sure I'd say that either. My butt can't count.
However it can feel. "Feel every spring" might be a better choice since it is tactile
Good discussion.
Last edited by Bill Robinson; 04/27/10 01:46 PM.
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JPF Mentor
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I'm happy the writers finally got wind of the fact that we were discussing their song. I'm leaving town in a few minutes and unfortunately won't have time for any more in-depth comments. I've heard from two of the writers personally and am happy they seem willing to hear the two points I made regarding removing the hook at the end of each verse and possibly adding a bridge. Whether that will occur or not is up to them. If it does, I'd like to hear it again. I hope we all learned something from this. I enjoyed interacting wtih you again.
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OP
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Thanks Harriet for another great critique and to everyone a great discussion and lesson. Congrats to the writers for such a strong work and for putting so much thought and craft into their process.
I am glad we were able to bring this program back. We'll likely give it another try in May so get a new song ready!
Brian
Brian Austin Whitney Founder Just Plain Folks jpfolkspro@gmail.com Skype: Brian Austin Whitney Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney "It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..." -Brian Austin Whitney "Sometimes all you have to do to inspire humans to greatness is to give them a reason and opportunity to do something great." -Brian Austin Whitney
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