JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum New Forums??

Hey Brian I was really wasnt planning on bothering you yet.

With the users already on here it might be hard I am trying to think of a way to keep the new users here. If I had 5 times the amount of people already on here I would probably have a better chance right?? How many people of the online users do you think are steady you probably know right?? Say I had 12 genres I need 120 people how many on here already would be able to put in more then 4? genres if that what you want form me I aint gonna get anywhere. I am not think about where we are now I am trying to think of where we could be

The point is that unless at less 10 different people want to use each one, then with the overlap we may as well just use 1. 10 is a tiny number and without that minimal support, what is the point?

And don't compare it to the chapter boards, it's an entirely different need and circumstance.

Brian

to find 12 people to fill 12 genres and regularly post new material and info, you'd likely need well over 1000 people and even that might be optomistic. We have app. 2000 total regulars here (i.e. that post every week). Another 5-10K surf in and never or rarely post. What it takes is a dedicated moderator for each genre who will post daily without pause and nurture interesting discussions.. but with so many folks focused on one or more of the other 100+ boards, that is a tall order. But show me 12 dedicated moderators who are passionate about both that genre AND JPF, and I will also launch them... that's two pathways for you.

Brian

It always puzzles me why people get hung up on genre. Genres are for people who love to pigeonhole music; e.g. journalists

There are good songs, bad songs and many in between. I really don’t care about genres just let me hear the song and I’ll tell you whether it is any good or not.

Can anyone here truly say what ‘genre’ they write in? - I certainly couldn’t – that’s something I let others decide (if they must) - It's bad enough trying finding an appropriate genre on Soundclick let alone here

Is All Along The Watchtower a folk song or a rock song?
Is Word Up a funk song or a rock song?
Is See Jane Dance a country song or a rock song?


Look after the songs and the genres will look after themselves

I agree with Nigel 100%!

Awesome I know I can find 12 people that would be a lot easyier but this too will stilll take time for some of the genres cuz we dont have anyone on here right now that would be interested I am almost positive of that otherwise we wouldn't be doing this right now right?? lol I will try and bring in more people constantly and will start a list.

Hey Nigel

I dont think you can make a country tune into an electronic tune i.e. House, D&B, Underground. I also dont see how to turn a jazz song into a metal song genres made themselves we just gave them names. am I crazy?

Howdy Juice, please address the issues I mentioned in my post a
ways up, it is from the point of view from someone who is not a longtime poster...OK?

Might I suggest two separate Shout Boxes?

One for discussing collabs (which is how the Shout Box is currently being used) and another simply for members to drop in casually to say "hi" and exchange a few pleasantries, maybe have a chat. That way the one use won't conflict with the other.

The first could be something like Collab Corner and the second something like Dropping By. Just a thought.

Donna

Thats an awesome idea to Donna I totally agree with that to..

Hey Gus

I went and read your thread again and I still dont believe that I still think the General Forum is a must. We always should have and push the general forum to users to come in and meet people (chat as above mentioned) I know we keep seeing it as seperation but I am not trying to split anything I just want to library things. Say someone posts a Rock song that nobody felt obliged to comment on it only takes a day before it disappears. Now if we had a library of the threads posted i.e. tags and such one looking to see that stuff could just click and up come all the songs stuck in the back that nobody wanted to write about or relate to is right up front. We all spam our songs to try and get the most feedback possible how can we avoid that?

Good Idea DM, won't solve Aarons concern, but a dandy idea for
many other reasons..........Gus

Now we're getting someplace, & I agree with tags, as opposed to
separate forums. That would keep the songs mixed together, for
the folks that don't designate a preference, yet allow a person to filter down his browse to an area of interest etc. but still
have a decent odds of interacting with folks that might broaden
that perspective and interests. Also requires less forums =less
moderators= easier for Aaron......ha ha ......JMHO....Gus

Easy! Just like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLkOYHYQ2tc&feature

YES!!! no we can start progress lol this is all stuff we need to keep rectifying. If we keep brainstorming on all the possible ways of making things work out for everyones best interests we are progressing.

HAHAHAHAHAHA Mark
I dont think the Metal scene would go for that one. I ahve seen lots of stuff like that its pretty funny but no one sits back and rocks out to that stuff

Country becomes electronica

Electronica becomes country?

Rap meets Rock

Take Five

The last link is not a great example but does illustrate the point.

No you are not crazy. Yes, there clearly are genres and they do have musical and lyrical traits, but speaking personally if someone says ‘this is a rock song’ or this is a ‘hip-hop song’ it won’t color my judgement as to whether it is any good or not, I am not genre driven. I feel I can assess a country song as well as a show tune. If I had a number of boards to choose from I probably wouldn’t listen to any. At least with a single board there is an element of anticipation about what I might hear.

The other problem with genres is where do you draw the line? I mentioned Soundclick earlier, they must have 40 to 50 genres on there. If you come up with rock, country, folk, pop and jazz. Someone will come along and say how come we haven’t got punk, disco, classical and garage.

Lol this is where I guess i could take one outta Big Jims book "everyone finds the exception." lol but yeah cant argue there. Although I think that nobody really knows that Cotton Eyed Joe was originally a folk song. Im pretty sure they only know it cuz of the dance mix. I might be wrong. Personal Jesus now come on. haha I think I have liked that song in every style its been covered in lots. Rap meets Rock lots I actually make heavy metal tunes in my head over top rap a lot these days you get some pretty cool stuff going. good points for sure but do you think thats going to happen lots again and again?? I have received pm's now sayin people dont post just cuz they dont have the forum to post in NOT KIDDING lol so I dont know I only started this 2 days ago really.

Quote from another thread with a new user.

-Usually there is a browse or upload button. I need to look around a bit more.

another PM by another user.

-Why don't you have a subforum for each genre of music? I don't post as much as Icould because there isn't a dedicated forum I can go to to showcase my music. So that kind of thing would be a godsend, both for me and others out there that work in a specific genre of music.-

You say it’s the exception but ‘genre crossover’ is what drives popular music forward and creates new trends. Think of some key moments in pop and you will discover that it is often when an artist is pushing the boundaries by getting out of the box and not into one. ... unless it was Houdini of course, he did both

I read these forums and kind feel this is the same thing that is reflected in the overall music business. Trying to find a fit for what you do or feel as you are writing songs.

There are sub genre's for music but only very few that are mainstream enough to bring in enough income to be viable in the market. Actually the "Genre crossover occurs when someone manages to take the existing framework and push it to a different level. That comes from the consumers acceptance of that. That is why everyone tries for the mainstream in whatever genre they are writing for.

When you sit with a publisher or a record label they are going to ask you "Where do you see your music fitting?" Because more times than not, they don't fit any specific genre or style. And you have two decisions. Create your own genre or style or conform to fit where the mainstream is.

And since each new genre takes money to create a forum for it, most people dissapear into the back ground of forgotten music, or develop their own followings. Sometimes those followings build and they can get a new format (Roots music) or just be content with their own small niche. It is the choice of the people who inhabit that world.

This forum can be thought of as the mainstream. And for the most part it is going to gravitate to that. Everything on the Internet costs someone money to create, maintain, and keep up there. Just like the music industry. It costs someone something.

So if anyone is wanting separate genres or sub genres or sub sub genres, it is within their power to create those. But they are the ones who have to pay for it, develop it and get other people to participate in it.

That is the thing about the Internet and music in general. Any one can do anything they want to. But they have to get others that feel the same way they do to participate. That is why there are billions of web sites, chat rooms, information going constantly. And why most people stay to the mainstream. Just too much effort to search out things and it is easier when people come to you. In this day and age of constantly paying bills, staying alive, time is the one thing people never have enough of.

MAB

I like Donna's sug on the shout box idea. I always thought we should have a chat room here, and those are free to set up and plug into. That leaves the shout box free for collab discussions, and the chat room open for discussing whatever. The shout box is so small, if you get more than 3 people in it (or 2 very fast typers) it's impossible to follow what's going on in the discussion for most folks. Chat rooms generally have more space to type in, the screen is bigger, and it's easier to follow multiple conversations.

As far as the genre discussion, I could see it like this:

County (includes Country Western, Country Rock, Alternative Country, Country Swing)

Rock (includes Pop rock, Alternative Rock, Punk Rock...)

Jazz (includes Swing, Avante Garde Jazz, Smooth Jazz...)

Folk (includes Folk Rock, Traditional Folk,...)

Bluegrass

Salsa

Blues

World Fusion

Techno

Christian/Gospel

R&B and Hip Hop

Other

I think anything else that came along would fit under one of those catagories. Just my lil' ol' opinion. I wouldn't think moderating those would take too much time. Assign people who are passionate about a certain genre and let them know the guidelines. I've always believed that a certain group of people, particularly the younger crowd, get scared away when they look at our Lyric and MP3 Forums...because they're predominately country. Anyone who disagrees, go have a look see right now.

If we want to attract and keep new blood around, we have to be more inclusive, especially if we want their participation on the boards.

I still think that we should add 1 new forum to start. Since the
users that Aaron have mentioned are young, as is Aaron,we start off with a multi-genre YOUNG FOLKS FORUM, wih tags to assist them
to quickly locate what they want. IF that one gets too busy,
then you look at the posts, see whats most popular, & then, &
only then do you add another forum/moderator for that most popular
genre.that way Aaron can get what he needs right away, & Brian doesn't have to spend a bunch on a big experiment, that might or might not pay off, the demand would be proven before the
expenditure was made, but we would stop losing our young folk, which I feel is a critical issue. I believe this is the logical
way to approach this rather than a knee jerk reaction & then end up with more forums like the creative writing forum where the same post stays on top for days at a time, & it saves Brian money
unless the demand shows it is prudent to make that expenditure.
.......just my 13 cents worth, from a businessman perspective
.............rant more later Gus

Polly,

There is an enherant problem in coming up with all these different catagories and any one who has ever been much involved has experienced. That is interest.
We had a similar experience on my forum in Song Ramp.com. We have about 5 pages a day of 25 posts each page. That is dialogue going on about subjects, chatting, whatever comes up. At some point different people started different threads about sub topics.
What happened? The overall activity all but dissapeared. People might find a little information they like and go for that but before long that tends to peter out as very few are drawn to sub topics. Before you notice it, everything is disspated to a level where your regular posters, simply don't do it any more. You hear a lot of people here and on other sites say "I used to be on there but just dropped out...." There are many reasons, but the more you dissapate your content, the more you weaken the overall product.

That coupled with the guy who runs this site, Brian, having health issues, when you say "assign someone to moderate" that gets tough to do in a world where everyone has their own interests.

This is the same thing that our industry goes through when you say "Why can't they be more inclusive?" The fact is that our industry is established around certain criteria and "dues paying" if you will, and while new people, styles, formats come (and many go) all the time, the real deal is that you or anyone that wants to participate have that choice, to conform or form your own sandbox. That is the same with every business or product ever invented. You adapt to the market, reshape the market or don't participate in the market.

I have no dog in this fight of new forums. Doesn't matter to me, I only have time to look at few things, make a few comments, then I am on to the things I do. If you want to take the topic "Angry Chick Singer Songs" LOL and go do that, it is cool. As always I just watch what other sites, other people, do and recognize the limitations within. I offer opinions on that.

Just one of many opinions.

MAB

"Young Folks Forum"? Like, nobody over 30 allowed? It'll turn into a forum involving sexting and hooking up...who's gonna babysit? JUST KIDDING!

I agree that one forum to start out is a good idea...maybe call it "Newer music genres forum"?

THat's a good idea.


MAB

Polly has a good point, cant trust them kids....ha ha
.......I know cuz I was one, back when dirt was invented

................Maybe modern genres forum......... thats pretty ...........accurate & all inclusive, makes it so us geezers
wont be too scared to drop in for a little" modern stuff"

I think this is the middle road, which is usually the safest

The notion of "New/Newer Genres" is workable, but please don't have any kind of implication with regard to age.

After all, the multiple genres that I - and I'm sure others here - write in include Prog-rock/Techno, New Age, and Death Metal.

Donna

oh darn DM, I was hoping for a "GEEZERS GUTTER",

Wow we got a lot of hits on here since last night. right arm..

I do think maybe a New genres forum might work. We need more diversity no matter how you look at it. I kbnow you guys say that there are metal writters and Rap writers here but where?? I am still positive if they were to post if they got any comments at all they wouldnt be to constructive. nobody that would comment in our present population probably even likes these genres. So when they post and it disappears in a day and only got 3 hits do you think they will post again?? I know we need something moer for sure..


We should also have something like a rating forum like for 5 stars kinda thing. I know we can do that to threads already but what I mean is, most people that do drop in dont post anything maybe they dont want to be the barer of bad news, or think maybe someone else on here might disagree so I dont want to say anything. (Happens a lot lot I am sure) but somewhere where they can listen to an MP3 and rate it with anonymity. It would also help out for the awards instead of brian having to go through 500'000 songs maybe we could use the general public to help grade out the not so great tunes.. I really do have many ideas that would spice this up and still keep EVERYONE interested and happy. what do you guys think?

Another gernre cross??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUYaosyR4bE I know what you mean Nigel but thats where someone went into a rock forum and said damn would you like to do that to a country beat. I might be wrong.. DAMN I love this girls moves

Juice, cool, glad you feel this would be a positive and possibly
adequate solution.& the extra cool part is, when the time comes,
you'll have all the facts/evidence to support future expansion.
Now all we need is 1 moderator, so start considering all your
interactions so far, develope your short list of candidates, then
you should contact/approach them in private. Find if any are willing
and able, then of course Brian would have to approve
from there, but you can do the footwork for him in preparation.
I'm not speaking for Brian in any way, but common sense tells me
this would expedite matters, when & if the time did come to
proceed...........ranting,,,ranting ,,,,SORRY.....Gus

I agree with doing the genre thing. Soundclick does something similar on their forums, and that works out great as far as I can see. That and I always find myself wishing that I could connect with like-minded people here. That would be no problem if I did country music...and I could start doing it, but right now, I don't do country, I do trance/EDM/Techno, and I've seen many people in my posts say that they can't really comment on my stuff, since it's not their thing.

Having genre forums would eliminate that, and I wouldn't have to worry about if my music reached the proper ears or not, if that makes sense. I'm for it. Would keep me here, I seldom come here as it is because you don't have dedicated forums.

I still believe we're all in this together though, and THAT won't change.

Hey Gus

I would like to see the outline of whats expected of the mod's cuz on quite a few other sites 1 mod can cover a lot more then 1 subject so needing so many I dont understand. I would probably be interested in being the mod. I know a few people not on here yet that if we gave them something to do like that would make them more interested and would start to push JPF more too. I wouldn't hire an inexperienced nurse from my hospital to be head nurse if another nurse from another hospital applied and had so much more skills. this might be a bad analogy but I think we understand. Thats not saying that there isnt one already on here to of course. Only saying if I dont have the power its hard to sell the pitch to new people. I really need scopes and such on it the ability to say yes. but I dont so I cant you know what I mean??

Right on Drac

I know for sure any electronic genres would not stand a chance here and it really has huge followers to so many musics not consider mainstream still have massive cultures. look at Tiesto hes know world wide in the Rave scene no?? (watch from 1.18 and 3.14 mins damn that would feel good http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtO15jML8D8 ) We could really make every forum busy if we already had them. I know 95% on here would consider it crap but I dont he still stands out from all in his genre, how is that I wonder?? lol different thread sorry. But when no one supports that here and by support I just mean the people into that stuff to comment with accountability to an extent anyways how will they stick around??

I vote against breaking the forums up into different genres. I like everything mixed in together. Being able to "tag" your songs in any way you want would be OK -- but who is going to do all the programming required?

Kevin

The largest genres in our awards last year were Rock, Singer-Songwriter, Rap, Inst. Jazz, Childrens, Gospel, Classical and Blues. Each Genre had over 1000 albums entered which is more than the entire Grammy's had in total.

Our Album of the Year was a Spoken Word Artist. Our Song of the year was a Contemporary Rock Ballad. Our Songwriter of the Year was a Country Writer, our Group of the Year was a Taiwanese Rap group, our Vocal Group of the Year were Smooth Jazz and the best live performers at the show were doing New Ago improvisations on Trumpet and Electric Bass (it was AWESOME). The Techno winner is a regular poster here. All that to say JPF is by far the most diverse music org. in the entire world. BUT.... most of those folks never visit or post on message boards. They are busy gigging, writing and making a living making music. They just aren't interested in message boards which we all know can easily consume many hours every day.

No one supports or defends (and for that matter creates and/or nurtures) genres more than I do. We had nearly 100 in our awards this year with plenty of depth in all of them. Genres are NOT for the benefit of artists or writers. They are or the benefit of the consumer who wants what they want and has little patience to sift randomly through music finding what they came for. Sure, some folks like all or most genres, but most don't. And even those who do usually are in the mood for something specific and don't want to sort through the masses. If I want to here middle eastern compositions, I do NOT want to sort througth thousands of pop, rock, county, electronic, christian, childrens or any other type music before I find what I want. Genres are the most important customer service offering you can make for consumers. To say otherwise is to expose your lack of understanding of the business and the world.

That all, however, has little to do with genres here. If we had 100 times the traffic, (i.e. 1,000,000 or even 100,000 visitors per day) we might be able to support genre boards. But it has been a struggle to fill up 1 board with posts and more importantly quality feedback on the MP3 board. Each new board cuts that by 50%. So to populate each new board, we need double the number of people than we have now. To cut it into 12 pieces, we need at least 12 times more active posts than we have now. That would likely require 216,000 people just to equal that participation.

Then you add to it the problem that certain genres are much more open to songwriters who don't perform. Most are not. And due to that, theres little reason for folks to post in those genres in the same way and numbers as Country or Christian for example. So in truth, we'd need probably 400 to 800K users to really pull it off. We got app. 20 times more entries in the largest genres than the smallest. So to find those small ones, we'd need even larger numbers.

I've been doing this a long time. I was facilitating social networking long before the term was even being used. I'd LOVE to have all 97 genres from our last awards represented actively. I'd also LOVE to have chapters active in all countries and major North American Cities. It could be done with relentless hard work by passionate volunteers. If you can help find them and they follow through, I am more than willing to go for it.

Brian

Howdy Kevin, would you support the idea of 1 separate "NEWER MUSIC"
or "NON-TRADITIONAL" multi-genre forum?, which should do the job
we need, as a focal point for those who are feeling excluded at this time, and should be sufficient till so many songs are being posted, either lyrics only, or with musications, that nothing stays on page 1 long enough to get a comment, or some such junk.
Damn ......ranting again......Gus

Donna,

Unfortunately we can't have more than 1 shout box, the software won't do it. If someone has the info, tech knowledge and money for us to have chat rooms that aren't full of adds, let me know.

As for "Tags" not sure what that is, but it's not something I know how to do with this software.

Brian

Gus,

It is very, very rare that ANY song in the mp3 board goes without at least one comment. I generally don't allow that (ha, ha). I haven't been quite as active in Feb/Mar due to FAWM and RPM (Feb.) and FAWM/RPM burnout (March).

Nonetheless, if any MP3 song has gone by without at least one review in the past year, I'd be surprised (I'm sure a few have slipped by -- but not very many).

Kevin

Brian,

Here is a sample of a tag cloud at FAWM: http://fawm.org/songs/tags/


Kevin

Kevin,

But that still means nothing to me. Is this something I need to do or something you can do?

Brian

Brian,

It would have to be totally programmed into the site -- extra work and extra expense. I don't how easy or how hard it would be to implement in your current server/software environment.

Kevin

Kevin that is true only because of the few folks who go the extra mile like you do. you were the 1st to try and review my first
post, I had screwed it up, double uploaded, or sumthing?. anyway you informed me, and helped me out, and I've watched you do it umpteen times for others too.
My point was that, a single additional, "Non Traditional", or
whatever it is called, forum would be sufficient for a long time,
which means that adding 1 wont lead to more right away or anything
along those lines
................Gus

Gus,

I fully understand yours and Aaron's logic on the new board stuff -- but I feel it is faulty logic. The more boards you add, the bigger chance that songs will slide off the page with 0 comments (not less). Why, you ask? Because you have divided up the ability of the "dedicated few" to comment and make new comers feel welcome. To be 100% truthful, there are only 5-10 dedicated folks who make sure songs/posts don't slip by without comment (and that 5-10 sort of rotates based on what's going on in their life).

Adding more forums makes that tougher.

Kevin

The enthusiasm for change and the accompanying willingness to assist is inspiring.

However, I agree with Kevin on the implications of adding to what's already here. it would lead to more confusion. If anything, a streamlining would be of greater use: one example would be to have only one lyric critique forum (with people tagging their lyrics in the subject line as to genre) and to drop posts/threads older than - for instance - 6 months. It might be more useful to replace certain forums/sections rather than to add to them.

Two things I'd like to see are:

1. The Shout Box returned to its initial function of being a place for all members to feel welcome to drop in for a chat or a passing "hello" rather than being the venue for ongoing private collaborations. These - very commendable - collabs could be more effectively conducted via personal email or PMs. Or - just a random thought - maybe in one of the forums a separate thread could be started for each song that's being worked on. Collaborators and interested parties could then go straight to that particular thread;

2. The return of those wonderful monthly mentoring sessions in which a different lyric/song was selected and critiqued in depth by a bona fide professional songwriter and by other "seasoned" JPF members. With so many people joining who are new to songwriting, such sessions would be invaluable for guidance and discussion involving the effective and diverse use of structure, rhyming, and so on. Such a session would be like a Skills Development workshop.

Well. Those are my thoughts this Saturday morning.

Donna

YAY Donna Marilyn.............Great Ideas= especially mentoring

I couldn't agree more. I have been here a few years and this is the trend.

I just saw this one



I wonder if this could be done similar to the emoticons you can use when initiating a new thread. but it would say Gender

Howdy all, Gus here. I'm promoting the 1 new forum, as a
compromise only, between zero new forums & lots of new forums,
which would be a disaster. I, myself have no use for genres.
All I do is write lyrics, and I have no idea what they'll end up to be. I feel if I do my job correctly, most of them would be
somewhat universal, so having everyone under 1 roof is best for me, I'm sure. I enjoy the interaction between all the different
ages & interests. The best solution is for us to make sure that
those new folks feel supported, are given input to help them,
so they feel like they are part of the family too.
That is a MAJOR PORTION, of the mission of our new"TEAM JPF"
welcoming Ambassadors, so lets all help out, C'mon now.
..............Sorry to rant again.....Gus

Gang,

There's a much newer version of this software. Perhaps it can do what you want. Check out UBB Threads link below center to see the newest version and features and let me know.

Brian

Donna, excellent sugs! I didn't even know we HAD a monthly mentor crit of a song. I'd love to see that.

I think just ONE new forum, called "Newer music genres" would satisfy everybody's needs. We could put it in the Lyrics and MP3 forum maybe placed under the MP3 Forum? Like Drac said, whenever he tried to post his music, people were not very receptive...just because they couldn't relate to it. But it IS good stuff, and it DOES have a market and a following. It would be nice to get the people that do relate to that stuff posting on here so that Drac, Aaron, and others would have more of a reason to be here and remain active. It would also boost membership and hopefully, subsequently, build more individual chapters.

I'll look into the chat room thing. Not sure if I can find a free one that doesn't have ads.