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Marc,

I sure know of Shelaigh....and have known Nate Cremens of Dewsouth for a long time. We were starting to do some writing together awhile back.

My son introduced me to Frankie one night at the "Intersection" in Grand Rapids. Both he and my son's band were there to go in front of, I believe, Sony BMG to win a spot opening for Kenny Chesney on tour. It was down to 4 acts at that point. Anyhow, Frankie got it and deservedly so......he's the whole package for sure. I thought he was extremely talented and gracious to talk with.
Yeah....there actually is alot of country talent in the north.

Clayton and I wrote FOR Crying Out Loud here in my office. He is a very feeling type of guy......a gentle giant, you might say.

So glad that he is starting to be recognized for his great writing.

Jan

Jan,

They are all getting attention. Rene and Sheleigh are here next week writing with Walt Aldrich, the hit writer who got Frankie signed to Sony. I mentor all these groups and that is how the music business is really done.

Everybody has this idea that they can write a song in their living room and get a demo and then it gets to publishers and then they get it cut, and so on and so on. Not exactly. It is all the "Who knows YOU" part of the business.

And you have to operate on the same playing field the industry operates on. The music business is comprised of people who interact and write together on a regular basis. Rene decided he wanted to step out of the normal NSAI "we'll meet once a month and critique songs" stuff. There is so much more nessasary than that.

I had had success with groups in California, Cincinatti, and Wisconsin, with regular writing groups. So they formed what they call the "Chili Peppers" group. (Named for the chili peppers christmas lights Rene has in his house.) They got together once a week and wrote songs. That built their songs and each one of them as writers. Clayton doesn't play an instrument so they had a couple of guitar players, a precussionist (for groove) and Shelaigh and Nate for vocals.

Since they started they have written about 50 songs, have done about 15 demos (sharing the costs) and have been bringing those to Nashville. Rene has the doors open with Sony music and others so he is getting songs heard by the biggest business people in Nashville. Now they are writing with hit writers. That will get them even higher level songs and in moer doors.

That is how all this works. Frankie did the same thing with me and then Walt took it to the next step, Sony, who took it the next step with Warner Brothers. He is working in the studio with Jason Aldeen's producer and working on his CD.

That is the way the music business works.

MAB

Marc,

Well, they are all doing the right things at this point in their careers. I fully realize that having the talent to write is not enough. I think I got serious way too late. It's a bit different with me.

I know what I should be doing. If that is entirely feasible at this point....well, I'm not sure. I don't have much of a question in my mind of IF I can write, but I have alot of them regarding who would take me seriously at this point.

And....that is how my mind is working at this point. Let's just say that youth is wasted on the young. If I'd only known then...what I know now.

Jan

Jan,

That's what we all go through. Which is why you UTILIZE the young to be your voice! You have the experience, they have the voice. Find yourself a dozen of hot young artists, figure out what they want to say, put it with your experience and BOOM! YOu are in the game!
Why should you not do what every other writer in this business have been doing for about 50 years?

MAB

Marc....I really appreciate all that you've said and I am listening, believe me. I don't know for sure how to find those hot new artists that you spoke of...without them being too non-goal driven and local or else attached to a decision making label. I need to find those artists that are right on that line....ready and willing to cross it. I am writing with a band right now, but I know that they won't do anything besides local venues...opening acts, etc. They are not planning to go any farther that their own back yard. But.....I am searching.

I really thought that Frankie wrote all of his own stuff...so I didn't bark up that tree. Guess I should have.

Nate had asked me once to write their first cd....but they never seemed to get to it, even though he liked the songs. But it seems that he has gotten alot more serious of late. He's a good guy and Shapel is so much fun (his female lead singer)

Thanks for how you open yourself up here on the forums, Marc....you have so much to share with us.

Jan

Jan,

At every level of the music industry, it is force of personality. You are a politician. You have to MAKE people not only love your stuff, but CONCINCE them that it was THEIR idea. Whether it is the local band or singer doing karaoke, to the people auditioning for American Idol or Nashville Star. And they are EVERYWHERE. Every Karaoke night, every open mic, every writer's show. They are on My Space, they are on Web sites. They are just not going to come to your living room.

It all depends on your songs and the drive. Let me tell you a story. An over 40 school teacher from Green Bay Wisconsin making ten years of trips to Nashville and getting no where. She decides to take "one more trip." She hooks up with a guy who begins to take her through the networking steps.

She starts making regular trips and writing every time. Dozens of songs. She writes with artists in her neighborhood. She is the NSAI coordinator so they come to her some but she still has to dig and work. She is dedicated. She starts to write better and better songs and due to the guy helping her, including hit songwriters. She does a showcase on her songs in Nashville and her own CD. She does not perform or sing.

She meets a young girl that moves from New Orleans. She becomes this girl's big sister. And that girl is performing all over town. In the meantime, the woman has songs on her My Space site. They find their way to a band in Texas that cuts five of the songs. And of course, the songs are really great.

The singer finds her way into falling in love with a new male singer in town and they form a duo. On every trip all three are writing together. The woman gets featured on radio and magazines in Wisconsin, women' magazines that are interested in a woman living a dual life of school teacher, wife and mother and songwriter.

The duo auditions for a television show and wins. It is You Can Duet.The duo is called Steel Magnolia. They are now signed to Big Machine records being produced by and developed by Scott Borchetta who' other main artist is a girl named Taylor Swift. They will go on tour with her next year.

The teacher is named Julie Moriva. The guy who helped her was me. That is what my occupation is. Guiding and mentoring writers and artists.

This is the same we did with Frankie. Frankie had never written a song until sitting down with me last January. He wanted to just play guitar in clubs in Michigan. It wasn't till he started hanging around with Rene Mauve that he even started thinking about country or Nashville. The group that every thought was going to do something out of that area were called the "Bronk Brothers" which are okay guys but a very average bar band.

The point is that today's music business is about being inbentive
looking all over for talent and helping them get where they want to be while getting yourself where you want to be. It is about observing the unchanging rules of music.

Amateur writers write what they want to say.
Professional writers write what other people want to hear.
Great writers do both.

It is about using your life experience to help other people develop their musical journey. Do it enough and you may never be a big hit writer. But even if you are writing for a local group that doesn't go past their local area, at least your music is out there. It is on CD's. It is on WEb sites. Never know where that is going to lead.

I perform and interact continually with some of the biggest writers in the world. Everyone of them have music out in dozens of directions. It is about ACTIVITY. It is about writing a LOT of songs with a LOT of people and not missing an opportunity.


A writer doing a workshop with Jeffery Steele was having a conversation. He asked Jeff "How do you find ideas?" Jeff, said "They are all around you, you just miss them." The kid said something, I can't even remember what it was but I remember at the time it struck me as "Wow, that could be a cool idea." Almost as if on cue, Jeffery said "Did you just hear what you just said?" The kid said "No."

"That is why you miss it. You are too busy looking for ideas that you miss stuff right in front of you."

That is the basic problem with most writers. They overlook things right in front of them, bands, singers, artists, they miss them all because they are working so hard to get to those major acts. Give that up. Start working with people in your area first. Conquer that. Then move on to regional, THEN you worry about Nationally.

And do they have bad work ethics, are filled with ego, don't know what they're doing? Think that EVER Stops? Ever hear of Kanye West?

This is about working the angles and getting outside of yourself.

Everyone has the dream. Very few have the drive.

That is what separates amateurs from professionals.

MAB

Thanks Marc.....I heard every word you said....and I am doing that....alot more than you may think.

I am very familiar with Steel Magnolias...that was a great story about them. They deserve to be where they are now, because they wanted it and went for it. I know that's what it takes.

I am writing with so many people that most days it makes my head spin, but I am doing it because networking and reaching out is the best way I know to get my music out there. I get that....I really do. I realize that you are driven to have us understand how it works and to act on it. I thank you for that....very much.

Jan

Jan,

Sounds like you have a lot going on. That is exactly what you have to do. Just remember the four basic tenets of the music industry:

#1 Creation of the song.
Create something unique and interesting. Make it stand out among all the competition. Get and keep people's attention.

#2 Presentation of the song.
Make sure it is performed well. Make sure the demos and any representation is he best it can be. Make it radio ready.

#3 Networking.
Make sure you meet as many people as you can, write with as many as you can. Stay at it, make friends and have fun.

#4 Business.
Do all of the first three and hopefully you will get chances to make money or at least be in the game.

That is what we do here and sounds like what you are doing there. I applaud you.

MAB

Thanks for everything Marc. It's good to know that I'm on the right track. I don't take no for an answer too readily....I'm very determined to be the best songwriter I can be under my circumstances and I don't plan on letting up....any time soon.

I appreciate everything you've pointed out to me....so much.

Jan

This guy totally took your advice and actually named his song "radio friendly song" and it's not well produced, not particularly good yet in slightly more than four minutes blew up your concept of the music business and how it works for all time. sort of a nastier version of the "united breaks guitars. tune. once you listen to this song you will not be able to seriously write and pitch another cookie cutter song. Oh, he's pushing 100 million views on youtube and did it for free.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0Gs4xGw1Eg&feature=channel_page

Wow, so much advice. In fact it's all pretty good. As MAB says there's a ton of sacrifice to make it happen. I still remember sleeping in my car the first few nights in town while I waited for my session checks to clear the union. but I came to stay. For what it's worth your demos should be professional quality. I've heard some vocal and guitar demos that were professional quality but most of the time not so much. There are several of us here who do professional quality demos with A team players and professional studios. It isn't all that cheap but then it's not all that expensive either.

That first impression is always the most important one.

Carthehorse,

I don't know how exactly this blows up my version of how it breaks my rules of how the music business works. As far as concept, this has been done to my knowledge as far back as the 70's, and probably before that. It is kind of a long running comedy gag, done the best by Christopher Guest and company on "This is Spinal Tap." Dana Carvey did a rip on it called "Chopping Broccoli" on a Saturday night live skit in the 80's. Weird Al made pretty much a career doing variations of the same thing. Have heard pretty much the same lyrics a few dozen times on writer's nights in Nashville. It is one of the first songs you write after about six months here. I think it is probably required as a right of passage. We all do them. Although I can't remember if I did or not. Sure I probably did. Just wasn't any better than the other ten million of them.

Glad he has 100 million hits on You Tube. Great. Susan Boyle got 278 million and the guys who wrote the song she did, "I dreamed a Dream" didn't make a dime. You tube and assorted views like this rarely transfer into sales. They bring attention to the artist and sometimes that can translate, but most time does not.
Got to be careful not to confuse parodies, flash in the pan, and momentary attention getters as the music business. They are satire. Two very different art forms. Takes talent to be in both. But there are rarely much in the way of cross over acceptance, which is why Robin Williams and Jim Carey rarely have a serious movie work out in sales and why the worst movie in history was ISHTAR with Dustin Hoffman and Warren Beatty tried to do a spoof on songwriters.

Funny, yeah. Liked it the first two hundred times I have heard it over the years. Still gets a chuckle. Keep attention? Not much. But to each his own.

MAB

I think we all write cookie cutter songs, from time to time (not sure, but I think I wrote something very similar to those that satire song mocks.. hmmm, I just hope it never left my drawer). Especially if we have listened a lot to radio, and some bad melody snippets are stuck as 'inspiration'.

The songwriters responsability is, to NOT try to push those badbad songs into the markets. You actually risk getting a cut!

There's a saying "Be careful what you wish for..." that I believe apply in these cases..

Another one is "Don't aim too low - you risk hitting excactly what you aim for"..

And.. "I'd rather be a good failure than a bad success".. (thats my own)..

Sounds like something some of our members might have written LOL.

Here was mine from twenty years ago:

They All Sound the Same
(c) 1987 words by Mike Dunbar music by Lee Cupp

There's another love song playing on the radio
It's not much different than the last five in a row
It's you and me and love and how we're never going to part
The same old happy ending where we steal each other's hearts

Chorus
They All Sound the Same when you're lonely
The love songs I hear every day
Remind me of you
And pretend love is true
They All Sound the Same

#####################

etc. I'd write it all out...but they're all the same

Every song is a cookie cutter song. Only a song that lasts forever and is never finished is not a cookie cutter song. And only God sings that one. And He's got it copyrighted.

The only song not a cookie cutter

Adam's Blues
(c) 0 words and music by Adam

Oh my baby brought me an apple
Said I should take a bite (2x)
When that snake said "Go ahead."
I knew that something wasn't right

You see a snake don't do no talking
Unless he's trying to pull a scam (2x)
But I was young and inexperienced
Being that I was the first man

So I went ahead and bit it
I think I almost broke a tooth (2x)
Right then I wished I hadn't done it
And brother that's the God's own truth

First thing Eve sees that she's naked
And starts to put on some clothes (2x)
Things were starting out so badly
Soon to get worse as you all know

We got driven from the garden
It wasn't in no limozeen (2x)
And then our kids became delinquents
It was a bad and crazy scene

So when God says to do something
You'd best believe you better jump (2x)
Cause I didn't pay no mind
And wound up living in a dump

Now you cookie cutter bluesmen
You all be stealing this here form (2x)
And call each other cookie cutters
But this was before you were born

So just listen to me children
And don't you argue don't you fight (2x)
You know we're all in this together
So just pick up your pen and write

Oh...Yeah...

Great ones, Mike!

Marc and Mike,

I have read many of your threads, loaded for bear, with the real MUSIC AND BIZ guide lines for Nashville. Also, I have read a lot of Mike Dunbar's threads. The two of you should co-lab on a down to earth book "Nashville Music From The Trenches". I have been here, silently, watching it all evolve since 1960. I thought about a book myself, but I'm not qualified.

Think about how much the information would help: Future Artist's, Songwriters, and
People on the inside of the BIZ!

Respectfully,

Mackie Humphries

Mackie,

Thank you. I go back and forth on the book idea. I actually wrote one called "Freshman Year in Nashville" which is what it really is. It is Freshman,Sophomore, Junior, Senior,and each one last about three years. There is a chance I might some day, but then again, there are SO MANY books about Nashville, Ioften think "Who that crap cares what I think any way?"
So I do things here and on some other forums so if people are really interested, they can read along for free. At the end of the day, people are going to have to go through those doors themselves. But there are always ways to up the level of the odds and make what you do a little more effective.
I basically believe that if people care enough to belong to a neigborhood like this and others, I should do the best I can to educate them to the best of my ability. And there are no secrets here. Just some ways to look at it from a variety.
And there are things that Mike and I do that sometimes irritate people from other markets that are not interested in Nashville or country music. To those people I say that there are still four things you can't get away from when it comes to music or business:

Still have to create special and unique songs.
Still have to present them live and on recording very well.
Still have to meet a lot of people and expand your knowledge.
Still have to do all those things in hope to get business.

That is the same in any music market. We just happen to have a cool neighborhood I like people to experience.

That is all.

MAB

Hi Guys and Gals:

After reading about half the posts (who has time to read them all) it is very apparent that today's songwriter better be well connected, reasonably talented and wealthy. If this is indeed... the gospel truth... about 98 percent of us are spinning our wheels. We have a better chance of winning the lottery than we have on getting a cut by somebody that counts. To me, since I'm gonna write until I no longer have the stamina or grey matter... and that's probably not too far in the offing... that leaves the "Indie" route.

Like Everett, I can't drop everything and move to Nashville again... and even if I could, I don't relish trying to be a salesman to a thousand closed doors. There is not sufficient time for me to make the contacts that really count in furthering one's career. So, here I am... one old non-performing songwriter who sings his own songs just hoping that one or two might catch the ear of someone with real talent, influence and panache. I don't wanna be a Rock Star... I just have a real hunger to be plugged into an income stream created from my songs. Beyond that, I want my songs to survive long after I am gone.

From what I have read in this thread... my odds are nearly zero. Will I quit? No! Will I try to do it my way? Yes. Can I succeed? Maybe... and therein lies the answer. Simply hope coupled with tenacity and talent. Let the games begin... LOL!

I think the Nashville way is more universal than you give it credit for Marc.. It's like the old zen saying "Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water"..

Guys,

No one has much of a chance and it has been that way for years. The people that make their own chances are the ones finding and working with artists before they get known.
Music has always been a one on one type affair. One on one with the audience, one on one with the artist to whomever he or she is dealing with. Finding ways to be a part of that one on one experience is the trick. When artists become famous, other, more highly placed or politically connected people become part of the one on one relationship.

In 64' the Beatles redefined the nature of the realtionship within the artist/writer. Most of all forms of music have followed suit, the last hold out was really country. blues, rock, pop, rap, hip hop, alternative, world, folk, etc. are ALL self contained, that is, they don't accept outside material.

We are now in a world where we run into the "inside cut.' That is what is normal now. And in order to get past the inside cut you either have to find an artist who does not write, or write something better than what they are writing themselves.

And it is not just us. The other day a friend of mine had a meeting with the head of Sony publishing in Nashville. That is the biggest publishing company in Nashville and one of the biggest in the world. His comments have echoed what every publisher, song plugger, hit and amateur writer have been saying for some time now. You are simply not going to get an artist to take an outside song over his own unless that song is amazing. And even if it is amazing, sometimes the ego, chances to get it even heard, are just not there. Which is why you have to expand your songwriter's universe.

But hey, we all have the internet. Everybody is talking about getting millions of hits on their videos and You tube, my space, Face book, etc. We all have the chance to get our music out there like nothing before. It has never been easy. But there has never been that opportunity before. It is the glass "half empty or half full."

MAB

Ah, Well,
How are you going to know who will make it big before it happens.

Back in the early 60's I met a young county artist down in Texas. He was as good as anyone I had ever heard. In fact he was very popular in and around Corpus Christi. He would get standing ovations for his preformances. He even came close to recording one of my songs. However he never went PRO but did make several records. I have a full tape of the songs he recorded.

Most of us will not have any chance of pardering up with an up and coming artist that will make it big. And Marc, the gloom and doom you mention in the music business says to everyone, you should just quit now because you don't have a ghost of a chance of getting something cut. I don't necessarily disagree with your friend at Sony Publishing. But I ain't giving up, Brian ain't giving up. AND, when Sony wants Publishing on one of my songs, I just may consider him!

My former Publisher called again. He is in New York on vacation. He is returning this week. He is thinking about also becoming an ASCAP Publisher. It seems most likely he will be looking for songs from outside writers again. We are putting up a new Web Site with a good selection of our songs.

He met a couple of girl singers from New Jersey. He is going to send them a selection of songs. So don't give up folks, the best is yet to come!

Ray,

I don't know what part of Doom and Gloom you think I am talking about. But the music business has always been this way. Brian Epstein didn't go out and find an existing group. he found four guys that were just starting out. That was the Beatles. Col. Tom Parker found a young kid just starting to make his reputation. That is true with every artist that has ever been around.
I don't know what many people are thinking the music business is but more than half are doing the equivalant of throwing darts at cars going ninty miles an hour while blindfolded. Writing songs and just throwing them out there willy nilly with some pitching services, catalogue or publishers, never have really worked too much. It is about getting to know people at every stage of the game.
Nobody knows who is going to be the next big thing. Millions are spent each year on people who aren't. And again, none of this is new. It has been this way.
What have changed are the delivery system, the changes in the way people make money in the music business. That is why you get to know people and get on ground floors.
If Sony wants pubilshing on a song, That is great. It is better than Sony not wanting publishing on a song. But you still have to get to artists, still have to get it into the pipeline. And the chances have dropped significantly because of the advent of writer artists and the economics of the industry, fueled by the lack of sales and more illegal downloading. The doom and gloom comes from there, not me.
This is all about keeping dreams and goals realistically based. There is nothing wrong with dreaming, we all do it. and even if there were NO cuts, people are still going to write songs. All I am suggesting is that everyone learn about the realities of the modern music industry and adapt their stratagies accordingly, primarily seeking out artists in their own areas and trying to partner up with people before they become stars instead of waiting around for lightning to strike in an established artist.

In the words of one of my friend's who is a very successful producer who said, "Before anyone ever thinks about getting a royalty check, they first better get a reality check."

Nobody quits. But they do adapt to changing rules in the game and being observant about trends that have been coming for a long time.

MAB

Boy is this all the truth.
These comments are not gloom & doom they are the hard cold facts Right on the money 100%

Too add to this, part of the thinking of MANY inside circles is
we do it ALL we keep it ALL.

We are pretty big. Lets put our own decent song on the CD and
keep every percent & point. We will make a million dollars because we are Alvan Mackson (just an example name) So we'll keep 100& of that 1 million.

Understandable!
BUT this is part of the BIG reason for the decline of the music business. I will say this again and again and again for the 100th time.

Why not take the BEST you can find sell 15 million or more and make a killing. AND make your artist the most talked about and best? Instead of just eeking buy with your usual fan base..

Why don't they do this, they used to?
#1 Greed! The American way lol
#2 Our great way of forgetting our own history.

And here is the funny part.. It's actually greedier doing it that way. Because if you go get 14 little to unknown songwriters
you can GET up to 75% of there publishing anyway.
They will give it up in a heartbeat to get a chance in the door.
That is a FACT!

Now EVERYBODY"S happy. Alvan Mackson has the BEST songs from 14 different writers. There VERY best is far far far better than his very worst. Alan gets to sing, tour, be on tv makes money,can be at the top of the charts for months not days... Career is booming! The label is thrilled seven hits off one CD.. remember that? And the producers can vary, also the artist has DIFFERENT kinds of songs. wow! that brings a ton more new fans.
The song writers are thrilled... FINALLY an outlet for there songs. And people say hey I think I'll buy a WHOLE CD like they used to in the old days.

The days of "the credibility" the Beatles brought are OVER. the fans do not care who writes the songs. They have NO album to look inside to see ANY credits! They don't care who plays? who produces? This is not the past if anyone hasn't noticed. Shoot they don't even wanna PAY for music....
I think Tinker bell pop artists will get over it "not writing every song themselves" Like most of them ever sit at home night after night working on there "musical craft"

What superstar and there camp will be the first to think about THEIR industry before themselves and make this brave & bold move... that has been done many times before when records sold plenty lol...

Nobody! that's who.

Great post Marc.

OK,
And one more thing my publisher would say. If there are so many good writers and songs in Nashville why do producers constantly put requests in Tip Sheets for songs by outside writers. Major producers are looking for songs listed in Tip Sheets right now for the artists they are producing.

Here are some:
ELY YOUNG BAND
RANDY ROGERS BAND
LEE ANN WOMACK
DARIUS RUCKER
TRACE ADKINS
LITTLE BIG TOWN
LADY ANTEBULLUM.

I rest my case.

DOUBLE POST

Ray,

Another miss understanding of facts. Producers, record labels, artists, are NOT PUTTING out listings for songs. They have all they need and are not asking for anything. Tip sheets are compiled by resource locations much like "head hunters" compile job listings."

Every studio has logs, every label have inside sources on dates and who is doing what on what project. The Unions have information on every major session, there are dozens of sources, assistants, for assistants, scuttlebutt, etc. These are compiled by orgainizations like Music Row Magazine and put out as a guide for people to shape their overall catalogues. But they are very often out of date, misstated or simply wrong.

They are viewed as a nessasary evil by record companies, they can't do everything in private and dealing with 300 e-mails, phone calls and personal contacts on a project that was finished 6 months ago is not exactly how you want to spend your day.

And what do they really say? "Need hit songs?" Wow.that is really a heart stopper. "Great songs only." Man, never thought of that one. "The next big hit." Why did I go pitch my crappy song? Should have known THAT was what they were looking for. They are very vague and again totally unreliable.

When I get the Row Fax (which is about the only credible one for Nashville) I look and see who I know personally on a project. If I see someone like Ted Hewitt, who produces Rodney Atkins, I see him out and find out first hand how far into something they are. Then I can decide what I have in my catalogue I can get it to him. But only if it is PERFECT.

Most of the information is second or third hand and the producers get frankly a little sick of them. But a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while. It is more to shape a catalogue, keep your music in the bounds of the industry standards and to advise up and coming and new artists.

I personally know of three artists who are on the pitch lists who are accepting NO outside songs. Period. They don't even know why they are on the pitch sheets. Their attitudes are universally, I worked my butt off for years to get here, have earned my way into the party, and now why am I expected to take anything from someone I don't even know?

I know it gets maddening. You should know about half these people and still not be able to get anything in. Think you deal with frustration? I deal with HIT WRITERS almost every day, trying to GHERM ME, to get me to hook them up with my own artists or projects.

And that is really the deal Ray. I have been in Nashville 21 years. I have written with dozens of hit writers and artists, watched many of them go on to great success. In some cases, things that I have done have gone on with them, gotten pitched, cut, dropped off projects, or gotten on projects that go no where. I have sacrificed my own success at times, or finding another life for security,money, life, etc. I chose to do all this. If I were to help anyone place some songs, particularly if the songs were not as good as my own,I am putting them in PLACE of my own. That is what my kids go to college on. That is what I pay my bills with. It goes against human nature to sacrafice yourself to help others.

So my personal solution was to provide a business where I introduce many of those people to others, help them in their writing, help them in their understanding of the business and the other side of the business. That is what I do on threads like these. I try to explain why things work the way they do and get people to look for options.

I don't know everything. I don't know why some people do the things they do. What many see as greed, I see as self preservation. Because I know what it takes to get there, how short the time you have up there is and how fast you can fall off and dissapear forever.

A lot of this is pulling back the curtain on the Wizard of Oz.The more you know about the music business, the less you want to know about the music business.
But I'll tell you the honest truth Ray. In 21 years in Nashville I have seen so many artists and writers, publishers, pluggers, producers, label people, etc. I have seen almost every single one of them, at seminars, showcases, private meetings, golf outings, business meetings, etc. all asking the VERY SAME questions you are asking on these threads. Everybody was nobody sometime. They are all trying to do the same things. And for everyone that succeeds, there are hundreds that don't. But they all have to go through the same doors.

Today, there are dozens of people around Nashville,Chicago, New York, LA, Des Moinse, etc. that you have no idea who they are, that one day are going to be in the music business. There are people out there who are going to make noise and money. They won't quit, they won't let anyone dissuade them from anything. Those are the people who succeed.

And there will be amazing songs and artists, who never see the light of day. That is reality. You can either curse it, deal with it, form your own network or universe, or quit. But reality doesn't change for anyone. It is what it is, ain't what it ain'.

I know this probably isn't what you want to hear. But I don't know what else to tell you. And people are always welcome to prove me wrong.

MAB

I guess that's the bottom line -- there will be folks from all over the country that will succeed. If you have great songs and a great attitude, you have to ask yourself "Why not me?" If you want it, you have to go get it. No one is asking for you.

The best advice I've heard MAB give -- if you are a songwriter, find new talent around your area and start writing WITH them -- not just trying to push your tunes.

Of course, going to Nashville and seeing where the bar is really set is not a bad idea either. You can use that knowledge to help you get more competitive.

Kevin

Marc,
You have forgotten about TAXI who lists requests for songs every 2 weeks. Certaintly you don't put them in the Also Bogus Catagory?

Artists NEED hit songs. It would me nice if they could write all of them themselves but most artists don't write many hits.

Of course the Record Labels don't want to pay the full mechanical Statutory rate so they pass on most outside songs of which they would have to pay the full rate. That has been a fact for many years. I know it is all Big Business and the Artist doesn't have much say in what songs they will be allowed to record. Waylon Jennings had that problem as I recall. So it isn't just a lack of good songs or talent that puts a bottleneck between the outside song writer and the record label. It is the money angle.

And it has also been noted more than a few times that if a Major Artist on a Major Label ever makes a dime it is by pure chance. Yes I have been hearing about it for some time. And it has been noted that when an Artist signs a contract with a Major Label they are obligated for at least 7 albums. I'm sure you have heard about that. And the labels own everything. You may want to inform your artist friend about that if he doesn't already know.

Yes I'm aware of all the pitfalls of the music industry. The songwriter needs to inform himself of all the possible problems that can happen as he may get duped if he doesn't.

Ray,

Let me see if I can describe it a different way. One of my personal "dogs in the hunt" right now is Frankie Ballard. he is a 25 year old guitar gunslinger out of Kalamazoo Michigan who is signed as a writer to Sony and to Warner Brothers as an artist. he was signed early this year and is now working with Micheal Knox, who produces Jason Aldeen and now Trace Adtkins.

I was out with Frankie on tour over the weekend on his bus to Michigan.Frankie and I are very good friends and he looks at me as an advisor toward the record business in regard to his writing. As time goes on we will probably make more trips to write on the bus while he is out on tour. Same thing with Jeffery Steele and Montgomery Gentry. Part of the social network.

I know for a fact that Frankie has recorded six songs and that there will be 2 more sessions of six songs each, and then out of those songs, 12 will be picked for his CD. I also know that they have about 200 songs they are going through for the last few slots. Frankie has written most of those, 13 with me, several with Steele, Wiseman, Rutherford, you know, the usual suspects. And there are some favorites he has he didn't write, Walt Aldrich, two others of mine, and probably a couple dozen of those. And they still lightly look, if something blew all of them away, it might have a shot.

But for the most part they have everything they are looking for. It is just down to the time to go back in the studio. There are two projects ahead of him and so he has to bide his time. Last week I saw a dozen hit writers out, went to a couple of showcases of new artists, saw a couple of record company people and a LOT of publishers. Everyone is asking me about Frankie because he is a big topic of conversation. The people who have seen him have been blown away, and the people who haven't seen him have heard of him. And most all of him know of my connection because that is the talk of the industry as well. "Barnette finally has a winner" kind of deal. A lot of people have been in my corner for a long time, seen me struggle and hoped things would take off for me.So probably some of them will tell somebody, who will tell somebody and it will probably become part of Music Row scuttlebutt, "they are still looking for twelve songs." And that will probably find it's way to Music Row's Row Fax. I can't wait to see it on some article, "A well placed source to Ballard insists they are still looking for all the material on the CD. They need great songs. Hit songs. The next single."

No they don't. They are recording 18 songs. That is normal for every act. 12 will make it. They have 6. And possibly some of those will be replaced. I've been on both sides of that one. About three will end up on another project and some might turn up on the "bonus three new tracks' on some "greatest hits" record three years down the road.

So he keeps popping up on the pitch lists. It is almost a joke. "Well, I guess I am still on the pitch lists so I guess I still have a deal." And he is on the pitch lists and does have a deal. But that doesn't mean just anyone can pitch songs to him. He can't just go around collecting CD's although people try to gherm him at every opportunity.

That is why there is a pecking order. The artist,the producer, the publishing company who is paying him, the record label who is paying him, the personal friends, the major writers, all these people have first shot.Most other people simply don't.

So the idea is to find your own Frankie. How do you know? Number one is you get to know them. You spend time writing with them and seeing what they do. I also work with dozens of wanna be artists. Their attitudes most often doom them. Flakey kids who think that plugging in Rock Band is going to make them a star. That they can become an American Idol by singing Karaoke on Friday nights. Parents with Taylor Swift Gravy train stars in their eyes for a retirement plan and they push these kids on to every talent show around. Ever hear of Jon Benet Ramsey? That because they look good they are going to ride the gravy train to the top of the heap. All but the most emotionally balanced wash out. They discover the opposite sex, get into other things. They are all 14-20 years old. How balanced were you at that age?

But it trains you as a writer. Ups the level of your odds. When you pull a song out of somebody they could not have gotten without you, dealt with attitudes and gotten a great song out of it despite them, that is your testing ground. That is part of paying dues. Getting them out there, great demos, networking, is all part of paying dues. And everybody is paying the same dues. Everybody is putting in the hours. Everybody is playing by the same rules.

When you hear a writer who had the number one song of the year three years ago, start to complain about how he hasn't had a cut in eleven months and doesn't know if he can pay his mortgage, you start to get a reality check. That actually happened to me three years ago. Then the writer had four top tens in a row. Yeah, we all know the difference between a songwriter and a six week old puppy. Eventually the puppy stops whining.

I have written 1608 songs with about 1300 people in five and a half years. I do it almost every day and will be doing it three hours from now and every day the rest of the week. I have a local guy today, a Canadian writer tomorrow and a Canadian artist on Wed. Thus. and Friday. who I will be helping write her album. That is what I do.

But out of those I have one Franke, One Dirt Drifters, one Steel Magnolia, that I am physically working with. Who knows if any of them will actually pan out. You just don't know. But those people I have mentioned in past posts,didn't know if Rodney Atkins, Keith Urban, Faith Hill,Brad Paisley, and others would work out either. All of those people were turned down over and over.

You write for yourself first and foremost. You try to up the level of your odds, by writing with others, getting critiques and information, participating in other songwriter's journey's, doing demos, social networking, being as aware and flexible as you can. And at the end of the day, you pat yourself on the back for the work you have done, the people who's lives you touch, take your victories big and small, deal with the defeats and move forward all the time. Never put all your eggs in one basket and try to interact with as many people as you can.

That is about all anybody can do.

MAB

Good stuff - I got to meet the Kalamazoo crowd last week, great folks! I didn't get to meet Frankie, but I heard lots of glowing things about him. Impressive bunch though.

-Ethan

Hello all,

I've watched and listened to music for 50 years here in Nashville. YES, it has changed; mostly for the better. At any one time, you must be personally involved to the max. Even then, success of a cut is remote. I used to save the song of the week out of the Newspaper here in Nashville--I have a big box of these #1 songs--Most of these songs are Great--They are the type songs that are successful. Most of the time, these songs over a long period, are songs with a common thread. SO, at any one time, The HITS are in TUNE with the REQUESTING and BUYING public's desires. INDIE SONGWRITERS ARE IN DIRECT COMPETITION WITH THE VERY BEST WRITERS.

MAB is right on, with how you break in--HALF OF SOMETHING IS BETTER THAN ALL OF NOTHING! Listen to MAB and Mike Dunbar--Their ear is on the railroad track:
They hear the TRAIN - A-COMING.

Respectfully,

Mackie Humphries

Well Golly Marc,
When I was about 14 I was listening to Webb Pierce, Carl Smith, Hank Williams, etc on the Radio. Webb was burning up the charts, had the top songs except for one other song, can't remember for a year. Hank Snow had a great hit and so did Porter Wagoner. When the record outlets ordered records of a new release they would order 200,000 of Webb's Records and they would sell out in three days. Most others they would order 100 records because that is all they would sell. Anyone doing that today?

I hear they have a lot of studios in Nashville. Why is Frankie waiting to record. Are the Studios that busy?

Anyone remember what the Number One song was last year, two years ago, three years ago?

Mackie have you had any success? Well I have had a few invites to send songs anytime so maybe I will break thru any day now.

Ray,

I used to hang around Harland Howards' (I have his CD when he had a flat-top hair cut), Mac Victery, THE FIREMAN, and some lesser knowns--Alan Jackson's Band Leader had a couple of my songs WONG IS ALL I DO RIGHT--I have some Blues songs with a studio in NC--THIS SIDE OF MEMPHIS. I just posted a song on LYRIC #3, YOU CAN'T BUY THAT--I wrote a while back. I'm still working on that first HIT. A friend of mine: TONY MULLINS, has had several--HE KEEPS GOING and GOING.

Just being here in Nashville means a lot.

Mackie Humphries

Ray,

It is because the company which is putting one point three million dollars into his career, paying for everything and calling the shots, say when you go in and record. The producer is producing Jason Aldeen and Trace Atkins. Those are proven money makers. It is pecking order. And because this is a business, not the business of friends. It is the business of music.
I remember Webb and all those guys. I am 51, and have been around a while. They used to drive all night to some 500 watt radio station to play their records too and sold half of them out of the trunk of their car. And the only record stores were places like Western Auto who sold records right beside the washers and dryers.
We can go all day on what used to be. That has no relevance to what is happening now. None. If you listen to Brian very few records at all sell more than 1000 copies. that is true. Even major stars are having hundreds of thousands of CD's downloaded from out from under them. It is the nature of the business and goes right back to why artists are writing all their own stuff. It is survival.
It doesn't matter who was the hit record last year or last month. Has no relevance to anything. What matters is what we all are doing now, tomorrow, the next day. You can't do anything about anything but yourself.

The rest has to take care of itself. All you can do is up the level of your odds.

MAB

Ray,

I am a little interested. How many record labels have you started? How many millions in promotional dollars have you put into something only to see nine out of ten fail? See, I have heard that my whole life too. I hear the songwriters gripe and moan about how unfair everything is. I have also seen them waste their lives being lazy and waiting on everything to come to them.

I have seen artists complain that they have to ride a very luxurious tour bus to play in front of thousands of people who buy their tickets and CD's and t-shirts and hats. I have heard and seen older country artists complain they are being pushed out of the industry while propping their feet up on cases of their personal brand of Salsa and food products. as they are fitted for their latest $10,000 suit to get ready for their upcoming Vegas $100,000 week of shows.

I have heard about everybody complain about everything Ray. I have heard radio complain about getting substandard songs. I have heard labels complaining about no one giving them airplay. I have heard older artists complain about younger artists getting airplay and younger artists complain about being pushed off by older artists.

I have heard producers complain about publishers and publishers complain about producers. I have heard agents complain about managers. I have heard managers complain about agents. I have heard tons of general people talk about they hate the "old twangy country." I have heard the old people complaining that country is not what it was in "their day."

I have heard inside writers complain that they can't get anything heard and I have heard outside writers complain they can't get anything heard. I have heard people complain that "everything in country sounds the same" and in the same breath say everything sounds too different. I have heard a non ending stream of complaints from everybody about everything coming from and going every where. That is the only constant there is in the music industry.

I have heard six week old puppys and anyone in the music industry and I know the differences. After about six weeks, the puppy generally stops whining. Anyone in the music industry or thinking about the music industry never does.

But there are some people that don't complain. There are people every single day, every single year, that just get out there and do this. They get out and ride a bus, get out there and go to a studio, those that get together on writing appointments. They just do their job and they are not always complaining about it.

And guess what. Many of them succeed. While everyone else is complaining, they just go through and line up fan base, they write some pretty amazing stuff, they develop a contengient of very important people inside and outside the town who help them develop a pathway to success. Then they get out there and sell records. utilize the internet so it works for them. They make themselves and others money while maintaining creative control. They become forces to be reckoned with. They then become the powers that be and the complainers who were complaining can't understand how they got there because they were so busy complaining it all happened before they even know what happened.

My artist knows this. Because he is one of the guys who don't complain. He just does the things he does well. And that is what I do. I don't sit around and complain about what I have no control over. I try to attend forums and help when I can. I try to point out things that I see that works and things that I see that don't. The one thing that I see that never works? Complaining about anything.
There are basically two kinds of people when it comes to problems or complaining. Those that don't care, and those that are glad YOU got the problems. At the end of the day, the complainers keep doing just that. Complain. The rest do stuff.

MAB

Ray,

Waylon is also the guy who told a wanna be after hearing a song that the writer thought would be "perfect for him" who said
Hoss, yeah, that sounds just like me. But I could write the same song and keep all the money." Your heroes were absolutely as devoted to the dollar as the people you are disparaging.
They all like to eat, pay their bills and have their lifestyles. That is not greed. That is self preservation. The day you open your record label, publishing company, sign and develop artists, pay money to get airplay, do advertising, find the right political connections, play golf on the right committees, devote 18 hours a day for years making no money only to get to years of a little money or even some medium money, is the day you, myself or anyone can make informed decisions about those companies.

I don't disparage TAXI. I think they are very good to encourage discipline and good demos. But they, as all catalogue companies, and many song pluggers, even some publishers, are throwing darts at cars going ninety miles and hour, on an interestate blindfolded.

I was in Washington DC with Micheal Laskow, the owner of TAXI.
I asked him "What do I say to these people that ask if you are worth the money?" he said.

"We are based in Los Angeles so we have a better track record with film and TV. And Nashville is very cliquish. But it is all dependent upon the songs and the quality of demos."
What that means is yes, they have a lot of postings. But how many actual cuts are they getting? Not many if any. The reason is they are simply not plugged in. And no one is plugged in to the current music industry outside of the inside circles of these artists. Nobody.

The reasons for better or worse is that artists are writing their own stuff. They are encouraged to do so by the publishing companies and record companies who put up the INVESTMENT MONEY for these writers and artists.

So whoever you want to blame for the current state of the industry, it is basically the same way it has been for about the last 80 years of recorded music. If you check out Broadway, Tin Pan Alley, the California Movie television, rock world of the 60;s, the folk world, the Beatles and English invasion, the 70's drug induced hippie invasion, the corporate rock of the 80's, the 90's grunge movement, Hip hop and Rap, the country music from the 20's-to the present day, name when there has ever been the random "throw something at the wall and see if it sticks" mentality. It has never happened. And it never will.
Do any of us have a chance? Sure if we are working all the angles and not closing off avenues. Sometimes the avenues that are not totally visable.

MAB

Absolutly true.

You're not, in all probability ( 100,000 to 1 ) going to get a "cut". Time to go and make your own world happen.

cheers, niteshift

Marc,
You are a lot closer to the action so you would know.

It reminds me of a story about someone that went to a Fortune Teller for a look at his future. After a bit of questions the Fortune Teller told the guy, For the first 40 years of your life you will be broke, miserable, discouraged, lonely, and unhappy.

The guy asks, well what about after that? Well, the Fortune Teller said, by that time you should be used to it.

Ray,

That is about it. We get used to it. But the reality is that there are people who break through all the time. The one who has been doing it better than anyone else, Taylor Swift, was totally unknown a little over two years ago. And she did almost every thing on her on. She built fan base, wrote her own songs, built everything around her, attracted tons of people to her side and has turned the industry on it's ear. Some on these pages disparage her but frankly I question their understanding of the way this stuff works.

It is always about getting out there every day and doing things. You don't get bothered by all that stuff you have nothing to do with.Every day is another song. It is the challenge of the whole thing. You can touch lives. If something sticks, that is gravy. The thrill of the chase.

Things go wrong, sure. But you can't get all caught up in that. Just got to keep at it. At the end of the day it is about the songs you write, the demos you do and the relationships you build. And even more important, are the lives you touch.

MAB

Marc,
I believe I have said a time or two I ain't giving up. Taylor Swift is a fine looking youngster and I like her and her demeanor. I think she is a great talent. Also some of the other young ladies such as Carrie Underwood.

I would like to hear some of those 1608? songs you have written. Maybe you could post some of them if you haven't already. Keep trucking.

Ray,

I forget about posting songs just because I get a little swamped in my dealings with clients. Have a girl from Canada on a three day tour right now. But I will. I have so many songs out there in so many ways I kind of leave that for others on sites like these who might not have as many opportunities to put them on to do so here. Again, most of the time I am not really talking about me as much as principals and situations that go on in the industry as I see it.
But thanks for reminding me, and I will post some in the future. To be honest i have not even ever looked at that feature here. Most of my stuff is veiwable on my My Space, Songramp and Web site, www.marcalanbarnette.com but if you want me to bore you with them here, I will put a few up. Thanks for reminding me.

By the way, if you were the giving up kind, you wouldn't be here. My total suggestions to you and all other people trying to work the angles of the industry is to work to find the NEXT Taylor Swift's, the Next Garth Brooks, the next Alan Jackson, etc. and work to utilize them as a voice for your own work instead of focusing as much on a train that has already left the station.
There is validity in everything we all do. Music is simply about finding the proper place for it. There are common principals and elements in all businesses and this is another business. Just have to find a way to break in and that is usually on the ground floor.

That is all I am ever saying.

MAB

.
.Back in another thread, I said to Marc:
Sounds like you're saying the song is secondary.

Marc replied:
If you don't have the song you go nowhere. That is the bottom line.
One thing I appreciate about Marc is he has never said miracles don't happen or lightning doesn't strike. People do win the lottery sometimes.

I myself am 53 years old in declining health. I had planned to move back to Nashville by now but I'm scared because of my insurance. It was easy at 28, it ain't so easy at 53. I don't have the time to put into the networking. I may not have the time to spend on a 5 year or 7 year plan (whichever it is now.) I may not have the talent either. I didn't have it before. I don't write as many songs as I used to and though I may come up with a verse that impresses me, finishing a song is nigh impossible for me. I start a lot of songs which just about everybody says but I don't mean it like most people do.

I think my best songs are probably behind me. I think some of them could still be a hit. I think almost anyone in here could write a hit. Lighting strikes, miracles happen, lotteries are won. BUT, it strikes relatively few people, miracle is an overused word, and millions of people lose on the lottery every night.

I think looking at it as lightning striking is good. Marc gives a lot of insight into what a lot of people do to make it and he's honest about how many of those don't make it. I don't think he's ever said you won't make it, just as Ray has never said you will make it. Both paths are tough.
.
.

I never tell anyone they are going to do anything or not going to do anything. I don't know and am no fortune teller. I have had so many friends who have been nearly at death's door and come back. I have had friends who get cuts that change their life just as they are hanging it all up.

And I have had the most amazing people just not pull it off. Not their fault. They have the songs, the talent, energy, know everyone. Just didn't happen. And if you knew much about my own story, you might see that I was one of those people.

I got a cut on Shelby Lynne my first night in town. I came so close to record deals, had singles that went no where, did shows that were incredible only to be forgotten, won National talent shows that were over the day after the television airing. So I just kind of developed a different outlook on things.

I had one publishing deal run out of money, to be replaced by another deal that was destroyed by a misguided but well intentioned lawyer. It was at that point fate lent a hand and allowed me to do what I do now. Through NSAI and other individuals, I was asked to speak at workshops, seminars, help people find their way around town and learn about the music industry without going broke or losing families or anything you can imagine.

Every day I write songs, talk about music, show people things they didn't know before, show off a really cool town and save people money. I have songs all over the place, on CD's, on web sites, up and coming artists, with publishers, pluggers, and every thing in between. I help people by doing and put my reputation on every thing I do. I get paid to do what I love and have a pretty cool life.

I do things like this as a way to let people know about what I do and who I am. But I do it for one reason above all. I care about the dreamer. I think if people put their time, money, and attention into sites like these, they should at least get the best information they can.

But I am living proof that really cool things happen. And that it can be done even in today's really weird world. And at the end of the day if you please yourself, do good work and most of all, touch somebody else's life, you are doing what you were sent here to do.

That is about all I can say.

MAB

Marc, count me in the "never tired of the Nashville perspective" group. And thanks so much for your insights and time to explain how it works in Music City these days. I have been removed from the music industry and Nashville for quite a while, but it's becoming a great journey getting back into it not to mention starting all-over from the bottom). In my case I am probably writing for/marketing to more of a niche market (bluegrass/Americana)than most writers here I think. But from what I have observed so far, your points are pretty bang on for that genre as well. Great material, strong networking/developing friendships, and timely presentations. That's a starting point, and if your stuff is good enough, anything is possible. Nashville's where it's at, baby! (Well.....except for Titans football).

Paul Ryan
www.ryantunes.com