JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Do you prefer a savaging critique or a damning with faint praise?

Lucian -

I had to chime in when I saw your last post. I personally would find if disappointing to have someone offering a different perspective from what you feel the majority of this board presents, to leave JPF. In my opinion, the more diverse viewpoints represented, the better the board will be.

Regarding whether or not people on JPF tend to judge songs by their commercial potential, I feel that if you were to present your songs stating that you had no commercial aspirations, you might find a completely different set of critiques and possibly posters. I believe that people will impose their own personal songwriting aspirations onto a song unless guided otherwise, for obvious reasons.

Regarding religious beliefs, I would like to think that anyone reviewing a song would not use their own personal, political or religious viewpoints as a means of judging another artist's personal expression. Unfortunately, I think most of us have seen that this is not always the case.

Hopefully you'll stick around, but I certainly support your decision to do whatever you feel is best to improve yourself as a songwriter. We all have that right. Best of luck.

None of my music is commercial (I wish it were, though). I wouldn't give up so quickly on JPF, but you gotta do what is best for you.

Kevin

Lucian,

I agree with the others that it would be a shame to loose your opinion on this board, but please do what you think is best (I think that's the most important thing you can do). Good luck!

Never give up?
Never give in
Hold on to your dreams!

(sorry, couldn't resist)

Hey Lucian,

Hmm, I think you are drawing some wrong conclusions here. When people are hurt, we tend to fall into processes of fighting and running. If you have been hurt by feedback, this is probably what you are going through (as it is an universal psychological mechanism due to the author Daniel Goleman).

And even if this does not apply for you, commercial can certainly mean $$$ for some people, but not necesarily so. Personally I do not like to be categorized as a commercial exploiter. Words are often nothing but empty, before people give mening to them. And I think you are politicizing the comments, in your reading and interpretations.

Commercial can simply mean 'popular', and even if we do not aim for the exploitation and the $, I believe we should aim towards popularity, simply because songs are a form of communication between people. I fail to see the point in writing songs, if not to communicate with other people. Technically, this is about working from the deeply personal to something wider understood (universal). Feedback is the test process for this, and though this is often put down as the commercial (de)route, you don't have to buy into that.

Even if your intention is to spread political viewpoints (eg. your Zion reference) through a massmedium like songs, you would have convince your listeners trough the songs.

So communication is difficult, and I think songwriting and feedback are no different. Of course lucian, you can draw your own conclusions, but I just want to contribute to make it an informed one, and not just a psychological defence mechanism.

But if we are to talk about art, as the Sword of Damocles, I feel it deserves a thread by itself :-)

You are seeing a very small sampling here of the 40,000+ members of this group. Not all of us are commercially minded in their art, and not all of us are religious. We are a mix of people from around the world with many different views and perceptions of life and art. I don't know what is right for you, only you can decide that, but I really don't get you at all. First, you ask if people prefer a "savaging" of their work when it is reviewed which to me sounds like you want others to provide opinions on your "art", yet you insist you will not compromise your art for commerciality. If you are that determined in your "art", then I would believe you have a vision of where you want to take it, and therefore should not give a damn what anyone thinks. You also have an avatar that says "never give up" which implies a competitive element in what you do. I, frankly, am confused by what it is you really want, and I think you are too based solely on your responses to what you have read here. If you believe in your avatar, why give up on something just because others have different ideas?

I would hate to see you leave for the reasons you stated, but whatever you decide, good luck to you.

Hi Lucian! Quite an Interesting Discussion you've created. IF you've read many Songs/Critiques from Big Jim & I, you'd realize we're not ALL Bible-Bangers here at JPF. &, yep, there's a LOT of Country-Oriented Lyric-ing goin' on..(Tho I'd kinda yearn for some Rap Writers to show us their stuff more-often...KNOW you're Out There/What's Keepin' Yas?)

ANY Critique on a Song is Just One Person's Opinion. It always helps to remember The Beatles got shot down by a Fair Number of Labels 'cuz they weren't Originally-Perceived as Anything Spectacular. Living (& Selling)-Well is certainly the Best "Revenge" as far as Critics Go. Tho..alas..ya MAY just have to settle for the Former..even if you write/perform some of the Greatest Stuff ever-Penned..unless ya get EVERYTHING Right..(Which, JMO, includes The Luck Factor.)

Anyways, "Kind" vs "Savaging" Crits: I think I always got MORE outta The Latter Kind..as far as Improving My Wares. As far as GIVING Crits, I tend to be more Humane (because I remember some really STINGING Ones I got Early-On that USED to Hurt) & TRY to offer some (Usually) Line Sugs on How To Improve What's-Here.

As for the Newbees who Disappear-Forever...perhaps they're out growing the Necessary Thick-Skin & "Shall-Return"... If Not, I still wish 'em well...at Whatever Else they're Taking Up.

SOME of us here write BOTH "Artistic" (& shall I say "For FUN" Ones) as well as the Occasional "Commercial Ones"..since, yeah, schmucks that we are, we DO wanna make some Early Retirement from all this Rejection-after-Rejection-after-OMIGOD..It's a WINNNER..Game.

As for Ande's Question, yep..I've oft-enough found a Great Hook thrown-away/contained in a Fellow JPF'er's Lyric...& asked for an OK/or just plain offered-a-Co-Write time-to-time. I believe in giving Credit Where-Due..when the Idea's Not Totally My Own.
(& maybe once or twice just Offered A Steak Dinner for the "lifted line"..when the Urge to Write was just TOO-intense to stop doin' the thing, knowin' full-well to probably expect a Lawsuit if the thing ever HIT!)

I'd hope ya stick with us here, Bro L, partly 'cuz this shouldn't be an All-Yank Songwriting Board. It's a Global Economy...it's now Global Musication...& Open Minds WILL Prevail in whatever constitutes "Artistry" and "Success".

Best Wishes & Best of Luck, whatever ya decide, Amigo!
Big Guy-Hug,
Ol' Stan

Ok, I've had a little bit of a moment here I see, but as an artist, I guess I'm allowed to have my little moments now :-) That sounded a little pompous to call myself an artist, I just meant I want to sing and own my own songs, rather than someone like Robbie Williams butchering them. If he wanted to butcher them like he did Suspicious Minds, that's fine, I'll take the money and go live in Primose Hill. But I couldn't write a song for him, that's a skill I don't have, and I respect those who have that skill and that is artistry in itself. So we're all artists. I was under a lot of stress last week as my six month deadline of "write a great song or do something else" ran out, so I had a bit of a tizzy, then realized it was my deadline and my rules so I changed it to: "write a song which could be great with a bit more work and I can sing it in key for once and I can have another three months." Big Jim, if you have thoughts on that Banzai! song I did, I'd be happy to hear them so. I was thinking of calling it Rodeo and using the bit at the end as the chorus instead.

Oh, yes, and regarding the religious comments - which I didn't express well - what I meant was that, coming from a place where there's hardly any religion in music at all, apart from Sir Cliff Richard and his Christmas songs, I was surprised to see a lot of religion in music here, I know of the bible belt and all that stuff, but, before I came here, I don't think I realized what a big part religion is of the "other America" that we don't hear so much of here. The "other" America being not New York, LA, Florida etc which is most people's first image of America here. So I'm aware now that there are things I can say over here about faith and such matters which are a bit too close to the edge over there which may inadvertently cause offence, so I bear that in my mind now. Anyway, I just wanted to clarify that, while not an overly religious person myself, I respect other people's religious beliefs.

Regarding this whole matter of feedback and stuff, what I guess I was trying to say is that I don't think the feedback works as well as it is can here. People with no connection to music often look at it as a kind of magical thing, created by people with a special magic gift. If they hear something they don't like, they think that person doesn't have the special magic gift but they can't analyze it beyond that. Even people in the music industry are often are like that. I remember when I was first learning to play guitar and learning to play songs and I couldn't hear where the chords were changing or anything like that, and as I learnt more the magic went away a little a bit. I guess that's the price of becoming a musician. So I think as a musician/songwriter you can listen to a song with your left ear as a laymen and get your overall feel for the song, and then again with your right ear to try and analyze why it does or doesn't work, and helps you to do that, and it helps the person who wrote the song. Anyway, that's what I try and do when listening to a song.

Like I said, personally, it doesn't bother me too much if someone doesn't like my song, I might have a little sulk, have a cigarette in the back garden, then realize they're probably right. And I try and take into account how much the person can handle it when leaving a comment on their song. If they've got lofty ambitions, they need to be able to handle it and take it on the chin. The way I look at it is, every song you write is like one of those X-wing fighters that attack the Death Star in Star Wars. For every hundred you write, 97 are gonna be shot up by brutality of the Empire and its Imperial cruisers and little octagonal fighters. Three might make it into the canyon bit of the Death Star, where Darth Vader and his wing men will take out another two. And if you are lucky, one might make it into the sweet spot, and even then you might need the help of Han Solo and Obi-Wan Kenobi - "feel the force, Luke, let go of your fears." boom, nailed it!

Lucian.

May the force be with you..... LOL

Damn straight Lucien, be true to yourself & don't give up!

Although I've had some modicum of success I'm not a commercial artist by any stretch of the imagination (and don't think it pompous or presumptuous to call yourself an artist either!) I write exclusively for my own performance and recording and I'm considered pretty much an indie fringe-dweller here in Australia.

Unfortunately, this is a business and I constantly feel schizophrenic, trying to be a good businesswoman while still trying to be a creative, fully functioning writer & performer. It's a difficult thing to balance and takes practice. A bit like your way of listening to music too, which I like very much - keep that sense of wonder and magic in one ear at least!

I hope you stick around, I think you've shown to many of us that you have a tremendous amount to contribute to this forum!

Big Jim, I think the force is strong with this one.... LOL

I put up recordings of myself at braodjam in early 2005.
One was when I was out to do prose oriented classic rock, circa late sixties and seventies.
It was meant for an alternative, somewhat Doors oriented classic rock oriented band that did not pan out.
They were taped recordings done a few years before the I came on the net.
Then I submitted my digital recording and what I have commonly presented to sites.
The former of those 2 scored much higher marks.
Although they seemed too generic to me and did not reflect the music in my head.

I come here to try and better reflect the music in my head so I am not the only one that understands it.

Don't sell yourself short for your honesty.
If people do not expect negative comments then they should not post in public forums.

This is good fun!

I'm more of a 'trekkie' myself. This is one thing my wife share in entertainment taste (or lack of..), and where we share 'the power' (which is a nickname for the remote control, at our house) :-)

See ya'