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The Asian Markets didn't make any significant moves as of this morning. And our market is up today. What did I miss Jody?

Brian

Most Asian markets sink after bailout rejection
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080930/ap_on_bi_ge/world_markets_40

What the dramatic, fear-mongering headline doesn't say, though, is that most Asian markets also recovered in the same day, some even closing a little higher than they opened.

We have nothing to fear but Fear Itself...that..& the People we've elected..so-far.

Folks DID recover from The Great Depression...& (Given Time..no tellin' How Much) We'll bounce back too. Waal..hopefully Our Grandkids will!


I find it ludicrous that "Daddy Warbucks" always ends up bein' You & I..& what Little We Have Left.

But I don't find it Surprising.

Good Luck,
Big Hugs,
Stan

You are right, of course, Mike. I remember sitting in a waiting room last summer reading an article about how these debts were being sold to foreign investors and how it was going to cause them serious problems. If I was such an investor (and I might be - I don't know every detail of my mutual funds) I would be really pissed. Initially, I'd be pissed at others - but finally I'd be pissed at myself for taking my eye off the ball.

"Let the buyer beware" is something I suspect we could also agree on

Given that attitude, I should be totally against any bailout. But if it can be done in such a way that we incur little risk (with a correspondingly small but non-zero rate of return) and open the credit lines a little, I would be for it.

A cash society seems appealing but I'm not sure we would be able to have as high a standard of living as one in which we had responsible credit. If a farmer had to hoe his field by hand for twenty years before he could save enough for a tractor, we lose out on all those years of productivity he could have had if he could have gotten a loan for it. Okay, maybe not a current example but an analogy...

Yeah, the stock example was undoubtedly too simple. Just meant it to be a snapshot in time. Yes, the stock will change value but then so will the money...

Scott

Brian, if you are thinking about investing in Ebay, it was $57 in 2004 and hasn't been anywhere near that since. The problem I have with any information related dot com is that they are all just one good idea away from becoming obsolete.

In the news I read last night around 2 a.m. pst, the rejection of the bailout caused a hiccup globally in all markets. As of this morning things are going back up. Volatile, highly volatile.

As for the link missed or ignored... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936

There would be no balancing non-backed printed, (borrowed) money. That's the main problem of the bill in the first place.

The point of not passing it is from the long term lowing of the dollar, to then lead to worse conditions for all.

The Fed printing money that's not backed by Gold, for example, for "anything" is what lowers the value of the dollar, here and everywhere else in the world.

Is that right? (to those economists here)?

As far as the bailout vote, this is interesting:



Article

In other words, in true bipartisan fashion, the ones up for reelection voted no, and most others voted yes.

This is a hard pill for voters to swallow in a rush. We might warm to it if it were explained better, or if they crafted a bill that people could understand. But we don't, they won't, and it's difficult to account for the money.

How much do they REALLY need? Beats me. I heard an unsubstantiated remark on the radio today that the global stock market is probably overvalued by over $500 trillion. But whether or not that is true, I don't think this game will end at $700 billion...I think they will keep coming back for more.

On a personal level, I am aiming to minimize as much reliance as possible on credit. That's tough. Mortgages are important. Car loans need to be paid off...but after that, will I bother with new car payments again? Nope. Oh, and I've developed a sudden interest in home gardening and canning. Glad I never bought into spraying chemicals on my lawn all these years.

The whole matter is something that my wife and I have been anticipating for a long time, watching home prices soar without justification, while lending institutions made ridiculous loans designed to fail. The problem for the lending institutions was that they were not prepared for the correction that came. They assumed that their losses would be hidden and correctable after the eventual fall that was inevitable. Little did they know the fall would be so great, making the shortfalls massive and unconcealable. I know the economy is messy, but I believe that the market will stablize itself, and financial institutions will resume business as usual whether the giant institutions fail without bailout, or not. The timing of the turnaround is difficult to predict, but I think Mike's numbers are reasonable. It could take 10 years. I actually believe a fresh start allowing new lending entities to enter the market would do more for the country than trying to prop up the current infrastructure. Afterall, it will be the same handful of players who will eventually finance new entities, and the first thing they want is the government to pay for it so it does not come out of their pockets.

This, of course, would take time, and some help from the government to allow this to emerge, hopefully without dumping large amounts of cash to be infused (I know, that's a pipedream!) The government should clamp down on predatory lending practices, but propping up the existing infrastructure will not do that. The changes that will go along with a bailout will not affect this because the monster institutions will convince the decision-makers that now is not the time to clamp down, so the controls that will get put in place will be mostly superficial. Therefore a real strong oversight reform will never happen.

Remember, the big players in all of this are diversified in other industries and other countries. They will not go down personally, but will let all those smaller investors pay for the collapse.

National City Bank is not about to fail.

http://dayton.bizjournals.com/dayton/stories/2008/09/29/daily10.html?ana=yfcpc

Meant to comment on this earlier and forgot. That's true Mike - but, as they say, timing is everything.

If you invested in September of 1929 - it wasn't until 1954 that the Dow returned to 1929 levels - 25 years. On the other hand, if you invested after the crash, you were probably doing okay by 1954.

Myself? I never had anything to invest until, you guessed it, 2000. Eight years later, the market is at about the same place.

Fortunately, I never got tremendously into it........

Scott

The missing piece here guys is that Bill paid $130 for the stock! ! You are assuming that he bought it for zero ! ! Bill lost 30% and you lost your ... well... you know

First of all, lenders make about a quarter to half a point when they do a loan...so, a $200,000 loan (let's use half) makes the lender about $1000...then they sell the loan to Freddie or Fannie in a huge block by bundling alot of loans together. THAT'S ALL THEY MAKE ON IT PEOPLE...NOW...If you can't sell that loan anymore and the client goes into foreclosure...AND you put the house on the market and CAN'T sell it...and then it's value drops (let's say it appraised for $250k, a nice clean 80% loan to value)...NOW it's only worth the $200k that he borrowed...The lender is eating the daily interest (THEY have cost of money too!) Let's say that's 40 per day. NOW the house stays on the market 8 months (that's at LEAST the time now) ...That is $9600...NOW add in attorney's fees, realtor fees and your own administration costs....that loan you tried to make 1000 on, your are now losing $15,000, ASSUMING YOU CAN SELL IT FOR $200,000! That's just ONE small house...Multiply that at least by 3 in CA ! ! AND...I used an 80% Loan to Value deal which is very conservative. ALot of deals were NO down or 5% down. Now add that loss in too ! !
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Quote
Then there were the short sellers, they've made a bundle on this. Of course now, the smart ones, the smart real estate flippers, builders, bankers, traders, and speculators, have cashed out. So who pays for it? The poor? How do they pay for it?...
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Cashed out? You HAVE to be kidding ! ! ALMOST NO ONE got out of their investments....NO ONE...It came so fast, and it takes time to sell a home...I know people that have 3, 4, even 10 investment properties...and they still own them! ! You CAN'T get out, even if you want to, there are NO buyers...People that bought them pre 2000 still have a little equity..anything bought after 2005?...They are UNDER WATER...And still, no one is buying, as they don't know where the bottom is...THAT is what will start us out of this whole thing, knowing where the bottom is...they are praying this package helps the market figure out that a bottom has been made...nothing will happen until then....

Could another shoe drop, even if they come up with something? Impossible to guess...but read THIS article...
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/30/mag...fortune/index.htm?postversion=2008093012

Well I have only bought stock twice and I lost my arse both times.

I bought Gold once. Lost my arse on that too.

We bought an investment Diamond....lost our arse on that too.

I decided I wasn't very good at this stuff so I sunk all my money in my houses.
Oh well. I guess I am batting 1000.

I am not upside down on my houses.....YET.
But I don't have any buyers either.

This link is 3 and a half hours long. I listened while working and it is a gem of enlightment. Now I know why Andrew Jackson is such a great president- he killed the bank- which now has risen it's ugly head again, called the Federal Reserve which isn't Federal and isn't a reserve. It is greed and power incarnate.

A lender, before deregulation, had to have, by law, 10% instant liquity on the money he lent. So a lender (banker) made money hand over fist because he could make ten $1000 loans and only have to show $1000 in the coffers. That means that if he charged 8% interest, his return was not 8% but 80% per year on every dollar he actually had. After deregulation, lenders were lending money at 25 to 1 or 40 to 1 or even 100 to 1. So at 100 to 1 the banker lent the same $1000 100 times and at 8% interest per loan, his return on $1000 was 800%. That is why bank buildings are the biggest and highest skyscrapers.

The mess was caused because these bankers didn't have any money to cover the risky debts they took, shuffled, concealed and scamed.

But Herbie, isn't that because they are using other people's money? I mean isn't the reason that they only get quarter or half a point because that represents the difference between the interest they charge on the loan and the interest they pay their depositors? Or am I missing something?

If I'm correct, making $1000 on a $200,000 loan using other people's money seems pretty good to me....

I admit I don't understand all this stuff.....



Isn't that an argument for being more conservative on who you loan to? I know some loans are going to fail. But what I've been hearing is that a large number of these loans should never have been made. You work in this industry don't you? What's your take on that?

Scott

Now I'm really confused.

I assumed it worked like this. If I want to buy a house from a seller and go to my bank for a loan, I assume they pay the seller off in full. The bank then owns the house. They make their money back when I make my payments with interest.

Is this not the case? I don't see how it could be with the numbers you give above.....

I'm afraid I might be missing something big here

Scott

Scott
As a broker, I buy the money say for 6 and sell it for 6.25...I make a half point or so ....the lender I bought it from at 6 probably pays like 5 for it, but after they pay everybody, I think they only end up with a grand or so also.
So, they buy it for 5 sell to me for 6, I sell for 6.25, then THEY sell the loan to Fannie Mae who sells it to investors in HUGE blocks...they do NOT make huge money on each loan, in fact the margins have been pretty thin in competetive times like the refi boom.
I am not sure what Sam Joe is saying about the current situation. BUT>... I believe that banks take in deposits, give the client say 3.5 on their CD...then sell it to me at 6...but they have to pay everybody in their operation AND service the loan. YES,they make money, but I don't think it's amazing amounts on each loan. I'm not like a wholesale guy, I am retail, so I can't really explain the whole thing...BUT...ONE big loss wipes out thousands of good loans on their books.

Did I make sense about you assuming your Bill guy paid zero for the stock in your example?

The Australian Market droped 4%

This is a transcript of an interview of someone who said this was comming ten years ago..

Thank you for your email.

Hope this transcript helps re Segment on Economic Troubles with Steve Keen.


- Steve Keen, professor of Economics at the University of Western Sydney, is sure
we're in or approaching the next Great Depression.
- He is going to sell his apartment in Surry Hills, cash out his Super, and rent an
apartment because he thinks he'll end up saving himself time and money.
- He says that housing prices will fall a further 40% in the next few years, so he
doesn't want to see his retirement slip away.
- Steve has been warning about a Global Financial Crisis for almost 3 years now, and
has largely been ignored by fellow colleagues.
- He blames the current crisis on the amount of debt Australians and Americans
currently hold. In Australia, the debt is 165% of our GDP, which about twice as
high as right before the Great Depression
- According to Steve, debt should be about 25-30% of GDP, which means we've got a
long way for it to come down.
- He says that the depression could hit anytime in the next few years and could last
well more than 10 years.
- He also says we should see another 500-1000 points come off the ASX before it
bottoms out.
- When asked about the Trillion Dollar Bailout in the U-S, he says that it's just a
band-aid that could morph the problem from rapid deflation, to hyper inflation.
He's afraid it could start another housing bubble that would further destable the
economy.
- His advice is for older people to cash out while they still can.
- For younger people, he says get ready for incredibly high unemployment. They need
to find a job that will remain stable and in fields that are necessary for people to
survive.

GREAT DEPRESSION STATISTICS
- Australia is thought to be one of the hardest hit Western countries by the Great
Depression
- Unemployment reached an amazing 29% in 1932, one of the highest in the world.
- Australia had an incredible dependency on exports, which fell apart after the
stock market crash of 1929.
- After WWII, a socialist style government stepped in and reformed the country to
take on government interventionalist tactics to prevent another total collapse from
happening.

STEVE KEEN
- Every bear has his day and this is Steve Keen's. The associate professor in
economics and finance at the University of Western Sydney has been warning against
the debt bubble for years, in print (with his book Debunking Economics) and with his
Debtwatch Report podcast and Debunking Economics website.
- Keen was born in 1953 - in a time of low debt, he points out, when the nation was
bent on building up industries. His father was a bank manager whose only debt was a
mortgage ("at 3 per cent") on the family home.

NEED TO KNOW: (5 key facts)

- Steve Keen, professor of Economics at the University of Western Sydney, is sure
we're in or approaching the next Great Depression. He is going to sell his
apartment in Surry Hills, cash out his Super, and rent an apartment because he
thinks he'll end up saving himself time and money.

- He says that housing prices will fall a further 40% in the next few years, so he
doesn't want to see his retirement slip away.

- He blames the current crisis on the amount of debt Australians and Americans
currently hold. In Australia, the debt is 165% of our GDP, which about twice as
high as right before the Great Depression. According to Steve, debt should be about
25-30% of GDP, which means we've got a long way for it to come down.

- When asked about the Trillion Dollar Bailout in the U-S, he says that it's just a
band-aid that could morph the problem from rapid deflation, to hyper inflation.
He's afraid it could start another housing bubble that would further destable the
economy.

- His advice is for older people to cash out while they still can. For younger
people, he says get ready for incredibly high unemployment. They need to find a job
that will remain stable and in fields that are necessary for people to survive.


Q: WHY ARE YOU SELLING YOUR HOUSE TO RENT AND CASHING IN YOUR SUPER?
- We are in the greatest downturn since the Greatest Depression. He's been saying
this for 3 years. And it's not just us - most of the developed world is in the same
situation, and it's not changing anytime soon.
Q: WHAT FRIGHTENS YOU THE MOST DURING THIS ECONOMIC TURMOIL?
- expect to see housing prices drop 40-50% over the next 10-15 years. This is
coming off Japan and their bubble that burst during the 90's. Since then, prices
have fallen 70%.
- Australia isn't quite as badly overvalued as the US market. Another 500-1000
points should fall off our stock market before it starts to stabilize. He says the
US should lost another 40% off of theirs!
Q: DO YOU THINK THE TRILLION DOLLAR BAILOUT WILL WORK?
- No it will just change the nature of the disease. If it works, it'll turn it from
serious deflation to runaway inflation. This is nothing more than a band-aid rather
than something that will fix it. If it does what they want it to, we could see
inflation shoot through the roof and another housing bubble form.
Q: WHAT WILL IT TAKE TO GET THE MARKETS AND THE ECONOMY BACK ON TRACK?
- We need to drastically reduce our debt levels. That is the only thing that will
bring our economy back on track. As it stands, our debt level hovers around 165% of
GDP. That needs to be reduced to 25-30% otherwise we will continue to see drastic
declines.
Q: WHAT IS YOUR SUGGESTION TO PEOPLE, BOTH OLDER AND YOUNGER?
- For older people, they need to get out of the stock market now and cash out their
supers before everything falls apart.
- For the younger generation, brace yourself for high unemployment and difficult
times. Cash out but get yourself secure employment. Any profession where people
have to spend the money is one that won't go away easily...
Q: HOW LONG UNTIL THIS WILL TURN AROUND?
- This whole process could take 10-15 years of bad times before it is corrected.


Regards
TODAY SHOW
team



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-----Original Message-----
From: ndowns@hunterlink.net.au [mailto:ndowns@hunterlink.net.au]
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 3:34 PM
To: TCN Today Show; currentaffairs@ninemsn.com.au
Subject: today Feedback: Looking for a story you had on monday the 22nd I think



Name: Noel Downs

Telephone Number: 02 65431288

Email Address: ndowns@hunterlink.net.au

Subject: Looking for a story you had on monday the 22nd I think

Your Message: Hi,
On Monday the 22nd Sept. (I think). I'm told there was an interview with a
gentleman who called the current financial crisis a depression and suggest people
cash their super to pay their mortgage... But I have not been able to find it...

Can you help ?

Thanks
Noel

Herbie

I understand how mortgage brokers work. Companies like Quicken, Etc. They are Brokers. They do not hold the "Paper". They also make money on discount points if I am not mistaken. When I went through Quicken My mortgage ended up with Countrywide.
I didn't understand that. Quicken made money off me with discount points. I later learned I could have gone directly through Countrywide and saved myself a couple grand.

Brokers make their money on volume, the more loans they write the more they make. Their Liability is reduced because they don't actually hold the "Paper".
So any deregulation that allows them to write more loans works in their favor.

A question.
We have a local bank that does not have any Branches. It really is like a mom and Pop business. I had a mortgage with them for a while.
Do they sell their "Paper" to companies like FM and FM or do they literally own the houses they mortgage?

Jody,

I think the reluctance to view video links is the season we're in. Most links going around are biased to a particular viewpoint and in the right hands, any subject can be spun in any direction you desire, especially on issues where most politicians and experts agree, in the end, they have no clue about what is really happening and what to do about it. It doesn't matter what point your video makes or how well done it is, there's no way to know if it's true just because they say it is. If you don't believe me, watch the propaganda out about both candidates and both parties. In most cases, they are pretty convincing to someone who is open minded, or simply preaching to choir to those who have already chosen a side. So, your video may be 100% factual... 50% factual or complete BS. And right now I doubt anyone really knows which it is, no matter how much they want to believe it or refute it.

I am finding this discussion very interesting however. The reason is that folks from all political bents seem to be forming opinions on the various facts and assumptions floating around separate from obvious straight ticket thinking. If only we all did that all the time. Wait.. I think I do do that more often than not. But most of the time, my left friends think I am a right wing Nazi and my right friends think I am a left wing pinko. Ah.. the joys of being moderate.

Brian

PS: The market was up 485.20 today, or 4.68%. Taken stand alone (As people took the 777 drop yesterday) you'd think we were in a boom. That's the trouble with looking at any of this short term. We were all told that doom was definite if the bill wasn't signed over the weekend. A net 292 drop in 2 days is certainly a bad thing no doubt.. but as a percentage, it's not the big deal people worried about. Perhaps tommorrow it will drop 1000... or maybe gain back some of the 292.. no one knows.. (note: If you are sure you DO know, you can easily get VERY rich no matter what happens if you have the answer.. so put your money where your mouth is if you're sure it's going down or up) but many people are making decade or even century long decisions based on the fact they think they know for sure what is going to happen. That's a bit scary.

Here's the plan I favor:

http://www.daveramsey.com/etc/fed_bailout/3_steps_to_change_the_nations_future_10928.htmlc?ictid=sml

Well, then let's provide a little background. It's a historical look at where money originated, and how it eventually became the modern banking system. Being that it's using data from the past and quotes from American leaders, I'm going out on a limb to say it's pretty factual. The stuff I looked up is all corroborated. Then there were other things I had to ask an accountant about. They also corroborated the material as well.

As for the Federal Reserve and the tactics of how central banking came to get a grip on the U.S. is also based in fact and represented in the documentary. It's all in the history books and while books can contain errors, it would be difficult to prove what is presented as being false.

I'm all for education. This documentary is probably at least a decade old or more. Yet the information is still very relevant to today.

Without knowing the history as to how we got into this mess, there's no way to get out of the mess, other than being doomed to repeat it. Which is exactly where we're headed.

The market is a distraction. This is about who owns the paper once the smoke clears. Its a fire sale.

There's no choice. Start the presses and brace yourselves. Next on the agenda is interest rates and inflation. You can't add half the GDP to the money supply without consequences. They buried the M3 for a reason. Fractional reserve should be on the list but its going to take a whole lot of hurt before that one's let into the room.

I feel much better now that the Senate is going to vote on this "NEW" Middle class rescue plan that is no longer called a Bailout.

Yeah, and from what I understand they have tacked on amendments to "pacify" the naysayers that is going to end up costing more than the 700 billion. Lord, please save us from the politicians.

Hey Bill

That little Ma and Pa bank probably keeps the mortgage!

please don't take this the wrong way, but this really is funny...

- Film and Television Productions (Sec. 502)
- Wooden Arrows designed for use by children (Sec. 503)
- a six-page package of earmarks for litigants in the 1989 Exxon Valdez
incident, Alaska (Sec. 504)
- Virgin Island and Puerto Rican Rum (Section 308)
- American Samoa (Sec. 309)
- Mine Rescue Teams (Sec. 310)
- Mine Safety Equipment (Sec. 311)
- Domestic Production Activities in Puerto Rico (Sec. 312)
- Indian Tribes (Sec. 314, 315)
- Railroads (Sec. 316)
- Auto Racing Tracks (317)
- the District of Columbia (Sec. 322)
- Wool Research (Sec. 325)

http://blog.canadianbusiness.com/bailout-package-pork/

I don't think it's funny.
It's just sad.
If we don't vote these people out we deserve what we get.
http://www.voidnow.org/

well its that too, of course but you gotta admit it takes a certain knack to pull this stuff off. We've got our problems up here, as well, just not quite as dramatic. There's an election on and I've run the financials on the biggest project on the likely winner's books. Its a trainwreck to everyone but the oil companies and the bank, but what can you do? Can't spend the rest of my life thinking the whole country is turning fascist on purpose.

Its a little closer to home but hopefully sooner or later I'll find the humour it that, too.

Humm,
Wool Research? Baa.

eye protection

What happened to McCain's claim that he was going to make those who add Bogus PORK to bills "Famous?" Oh.. I guess it doesn't apply to things he wants to pass. Lame lame lame.

I was hearing there wasn't any pork attached to this. BitWhys, where did that list come from? Is it all definitely in the newest version of the bill that just passed the senate? I'd like to find out because tonight both parties were insisting this was straight forward and not full of pork. If it is, they both need to rot in hell.

Brian

What honest person from either side would be against Line Item Veto? If any president had it, they could stop a large amount of this BS. We also need a balanced budget amendment. Is there any person on either side against that? I'd love to hear why.

In addition, today I saw where we have enough proven Gas and Oil off the coasts to not only cover our ENTIRE deficit, but also take a big bite out of the national debt AND completely go off of Saudi Oil.. meaning we'd only be getting oil from ourselves, the Canadians and Venezuela. I don't like V, but I'd rather put money there than the Middle East. If this is even remotely true, the next president could cover a balanced budget amendment, solve the energy crises and financial crises and put us on the fasted possible track to energy indepedence imaginable. Who could be against that?

Brian

Yep, and add to that the new BIG wind mills going up, (with a plant in Atlantic City, to help power that area). Who doesn't have wind!? Most places near,,,,NO,,,ALL places near the eastern seaboard has WIND! Many more of those plants could go up all along the east and west coasts, where much of the population is, (about up to 100 miles inland included). They are amazing looking! And of course, we could be doing more with the SUN directly! The very sunny states could be where the BIG plants could be, with inventing a way for that energy to quickly get to where it is needed. If the Internet can go Down Under from me in a nano second, then the skinny dudes and dudests could come up with ways to have the Sun's energy travel in various sources. Could be in the form of non violent lasers, going from state to state with receivers to capture the beams, for example. If it can be thought of, it can eventually be invented and improved on till it works great and safe.

YES! Let's start the ball rolling to let out voices be heard, (if that really counts and helps), to let all reps of each our state, (those in the US for this matter), know about how we want to have ALL energy come from here. Let's reverse the outsourcing, and to hopefully include making more things here too.

The nurds and entrepreneurs need also to get out and buy plants and start businesses of producing goods, as there are already enough gadgets and toys to break down on us and make us want to throw the cell phones out the car window sometimes!

Gas, Oil, Solar, Wind, AND any food or material can be turned into energy! (Got to know which ones to work with of course).
All of the above with full effort from many need to be explored NOW! We have learned that delusional religious nuts are not the best business partners, or enemies. Forget world order BS as Bush and who knows who else wants that. We need our own banks to be dealing with us HERE. Let us and everyone else set up their own systems as wanted. And let the people in each area deal with the scum that try to run things.

Freedom is the willingness to overthrow one's own leaders if the masses want it that way. (What led to victory at Yorktown!). Jefferson and others made that very clear "years" ago. (They probably heard some talk from some of the other politicians at that time, and thought to let us all know a head of time what could come from greedy politicians.

Good post Brian!

John

Wind is a problematic solution... no place ALWAYS has wind... and there aren't big enough batteries to store power, so it really only works when there's wind, the same problem happens with Sun power as there aren't batteries large enough to cover when there's no sun shine or at night. So those are good supplements, but not real total solutions. Nuclear is a big possibility and I still feel that of all the solutions I have heard, Nitrogen cars sounds the most promising. Perhaps a new technology will spring up, but of all that currently exist, that seems like the very best to me. I hear very little talking about it though. Why is that?

Brian

Why? Maybe we turn on our lights and they go on! Maybe the little by little increases in prices have become "normal", and even expected.

The gas prices have fallen. Get this: When I mentioned the price of gas at one station was 3.27, ALL the people went WOW!!!!! That's LOW!

Low? Maybe compared to a couple of months ago, sure. But you know what I mean? We get gas more now. We go to more places now. All seems fine again.

Americans, at least, seem to not have good short-term memories.

We seem to forgive too. ("Oh, they're just playing politician)". As if that is a good thing!

Wind power! Have you been to Brigantine, NJ, next to Atlantic City?! One of the windiest places in the US. ALWAYS has wind. Some days calmer than others, but a good breeze always. My daughter and her family live there, (8 years now). They told me that when I first started going there, that I don't pick the windy days to come over, as it's always windy!

Look it up. I think it was ranked in the top five cities. I'll do that now. And do other searches for windy places that are consistently windy. Brigantine is an island off the east coast. Gets it from all ways, N&S, E&W. Mainly near the beaches of course, but also in Atlantic City, and is why they built one there. ALWAYS windy there too! I know not to bother with my hair when going to both places! Hats are the case, but they get blown off sometimes! Walk out of Resorts on the boardwalk and see what I mean! It looks like the people just got off of the "Planes, Trans and Automobile" truck with that dog's frozen smurk!

John

There is the basis for the technology to store these kinds of energies but there is no incentive to step from development to production. In many cases it is actually illegal or too expensive because of red tape.... almost like the situation of "Who killed the electric car"

Cheers

“Gentlemen, I have had men watching you for a long time, and I am convinced that you have used the funds of the bank to speculate in the breadstuffs of the country. When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank. You tell me that if I take the deposits from the bank and annul its charter, I shall ruin ten thousand families. That may be true, gentlemen, but that is your sin! Should I let you go on, you will ruin fifty thousand families, and that would be my sin! You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the eternal God, I will rout you out.”

Andrew Jackson
to a delegation of bankers - 1832

T. Boone Pickens for President!

I think you need to be a lawyer to understand this stuff but here is the Bailout bill.
I admit I do not know what it says.
Check page 263

http://senateconservatives.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/bailouttext.pdf

TITLE V—ADDITIONAL TAX RELIEF AND OTHER TAX
PROVISIONS
Subtitle A—General Provisions
Sec. 501. $8,500 income threshold used to calculate refundable portion of child
tax credit.
Sec. 502. Provisions related to film and television productions.
Sec. 503. Exemption from excise tax for certain wooden arrows designed for
use by children.
Sec. 504. Income averaging for amounts received in connection with the Exxon
Valdez litigation.
Sec. 505. Certain farming business machinery and equipment treated as 5-year
property.
Sec. 506. Modification of penalty on understatement of taxpayer’s liability by
tax return preparer.
Subtitle B—Paul Wellstone and Pete Domenici Mental Health Parity and
Addiction Equity Act of 2008
Sec. 511. Short title.
Sec. 512. Mental health parity.
TITLE VI—OTHER PROVISIONS
Sec. 601. Secure rural schools and community self-determination program.
Sec. 602. Transfer to abandoned mine reclamation fund.
TITLE VII—DISASTER RELIEF
Subtitle A—Heartland and Hurricane Ike Disaster Relief
Sec. 701. Short title.
Sec. 702. Temporary tax relief for areas damaged by 2008 Midwestern severe
storms, tornados, and flooding.
Sec. 703. Reporting requirements relating to disaster relief contributions.
Sec. 704. Temporary tax-exempt bond financing and low-income housing tax relief
for areas damaged by Hurricane Ike.
Subtitle B—National Disaster Relief
Sec. 706. Losses attributable to federally declared disasters.
Sec. 707. Expensing of Qualified Disaster Expenses.
Sec. 708. Net operating losses attributable to federally declared disasters.
Sec. 709. Waiver of certain mortgage revenue bond requirements following federally
declared disasters.
Sec. 710. Special depreciation allowance for qualified disaster property.
Sec. 711. Increased expensing for qualified disaster assistance property.
Sec. 712. Coordination with Heartland disaster relief.
TITLE VIII—SPENDING REDUCTIONS AND APPROPRIATE
REVENUE RAISERS FOR NEW TAX RELIEF POLICY
Sec. 801. Nonqualified deferred compensation from certain tax indifferent par

I couldn't sleep so I decided to read a little.
I wish I understood this stuff.
But reading further it looks like there are amendments to previous bills about all kinds of stuff. Taxes mostly.
Am I reading right?

OK
what the hell does this have to do with this mortgage crisis.
Me thinks we are being had....again
There are pages and pages like this.

Page 260
(1) IN GENERAL.—Section 4611(c)(2)(B) (re2
lating to rates) is amended by striking ‘‘is 5 cents
3 a barrel.’’ and inserting ‘‘is—
4 ‘‘(i) in the case of crude oil received
5 or petroleum products entered before Jan6
uary 1, 2017, 8 cents a barrel, and
7 ‘‘(ii) in the case of crude oil received
8 or petroleum products entered after De9
cember 31, 2016, 9 cents a barrel.’’.
10 (2) EFFECTIVE DATE.—The amendment made
11 by this subsection shall apply on and after the first
12 day of the first calendar quarter beginning more
13 than 60 days after the date of the enactment of this
14 Act.
15 (b) EXTENSION.—
16 (1) IN GENERAL.—Section 4611(f) (relating to
17 application of Oil Spill Liability Trust Fund financ18
ing rate) is amended by striking paragraphs (2) and
19 (3) and inserting the following new paragraph:
20 ‘‘(2) TERMINATION.—The Oil Spill Liability
21 Trust Fund financing rate shall not apply after De22
cember 31, 2017.’’.
23 (2) CONFORMING AMENDMENT.—Section
24 4611(f)(1) is amended by striking ‘‘paragraphs (2)
25 and (3)’’ and inserting ‘‘paragraph (2)’’.

Well, to borrow an admonishment from Jody, here's a link missed or ignored:
http://www.daveramsey.com/etc/fed_bailout/3_steps_to_change_the_nations_future_10928.htmlc?ictid=sml

There's a good, inexpensive solution here. It makes sense to me, it's been vetted by serious economists. There may still be time, it includes an easy link to send to your congressional representatives.

Brian, you are ignoring the fact that these things are only true with CURRENT implemented technology. The whole point of alternative energy research and development is to improve on current technology. Do you think any existing power technology we use was as efficient as it is now when it was first used?

For example, wind. There are thousands of miles of areas in the U.S. that have very regular and powerful winds. You don't NEED constant wind for wind power to be effective, you just need efficient turbines and the ability to store energy. Wind will not simply stop for no reason; thanks to our weather mapping and predicting technology we can plan wind "farms" in ideal spots.

As for solar, there are several developments that have come about in the last few months that VASTLY improve the storage capacity and efficiency of current solar cells. The technology is not clunky or overly expensive either. Within the next 5-10 years, when it is finished and deployed properly, it will be an incredible improvement over existing solar cells.

The ultimate in power generation is, of course, cold fusion which can generate massive power like nuclear, but has no radioactive waste. Unfortunately, while we are capable of fusion now, it takes so much energy to start the reaction, it is not efficient. European and Asian scientists are researching this further.

That is a fantastic plan and exactly what I want to see happen. There is only one thing that I believe is coming up short on the plan, and that is criminalizing the abusive practice of CEOs running companies without regard for performance. If CEOs make decisions that result in heavy loses, there should be some liability. If investors are wiped out due to those decisions, and the CEO walks off with a huge check, then criminal penalties should be asserted. Until this happens, history will continue to repeat itself.

I only have one thing to add to this...

It's not as bad as it seems

Some sound reasoning...

I know people get upset when these things happen, but remember it takes a lot of these things happening to equal a depression... will we be in an economic recession for some time to come? Absolutely!! Is it the end of society as we know it? Not hardly! Life will continue and we'll still have some quality mixed in... hey at least fuel prices are dropping
Derek

Jack,

I used to be indecisive...now I'm not sure.

I'm of two minds about indicting CEO's for failure. I can see that becoming a real political tool. One party or the other would go after big donors, for example. I think rather than adding more complexity to the laws, we need to simplify. Make a good simple, solid definition of fraud, then let the courts decide if the case meets the definition. For all I know, the current definition may be sufficient to cover the current crisis.

I'm all for punishing the CEO's. I'd like to see the people take it into their own hands. Stop buying stock in companies that provide golden showers...I mean paracutes...for CEO's that fail. That would take care of some of that mess. I'm invested in a "socially responsible" mutual fund that does that, as well as funding green corporations and corporations that respect human rights. It's not been the best performer in my portfolio, but I'll be interested to see how it does next quarter. I have a hunch that these things will become more important to people, and won't have to be "mandated" by a bunch of pork-filled, special interest loaded, bureaucratically adminstered laws.

Andrew,

I don't disagree with anything you're saying. The folks that are supporting Wind and Solar are the ones who explained the limits we currently have. I'm looking at buying a small piece of property somewhere in Southern Indiana (25-50 acres) and building a small cabin and using a windmill to power it. So we're on the same side here. If you go back and read my radical solution to our energy crises, you'll see that I support ALL the various technologies, except Corn based Ethanol which is a total scam and waste of food that could be feeding us and the rest of the world. In fact, I think the entire industry developing around it is a total sham and borderline criminal. It's inefficient, you get less miles to the gallon using it, it causes a lot more polution (people with Asthma are especially affected by the use of Corn Ethanol) and its impact on food prices is part of our economic disaster right now. It should be STOPPED right now.

I find it kind of interesting that "global warming" has now been changed to "Climate change" and there's barely been a peep about it during this election. There's now a growing movement by thousands of scientists who are saying it's all a scam. Remember, decades ago there was a similar threat for a coming Ice Age. People can't accurately predict the weather for a 24 hour period.. and they aren't too good at predicting centuries in the future either. The earth is in a warming trend, and Mars, which has no humans, has been warming up just like Earth has. It's the sun.. not us. But that's a whole new discussion.

If Solar Panels were more cost effective, I'd use those too. But I think a big giant windmill is cool and that's what I will go for when we have the money and property.

Brian