JPF Home Page Forums Musician Gear and Techniques Recording Studio and Gear Forum Silence in the studio... the red light is on

Ok I'm sure this ones been done before...

But the net doesn't have the answers I am looking for..

I have recently learned through much research that onboard sound (on motherboard) puts out terrible SNR (signal to noise ratio).

So I decided it was time to get a offboard (PCI card) sound card. Well it was a tough choice as you can pay as much as 300.00 dollars for one with a audio interface (for direct plugging in from amps microphones and guitar) all the way down to 15 bucks for some cheapo card that uses the computer cycles and doesn't have it's own DSP(digital signal processor.

I settled on the Creative Soundblaster Audigy SE as it does have a DSP. It doesn't have an up to date DSP it uses the soundblaster live processor; however it is still much better than using the cpu as this robs performance from your computer when recording.

Now there are sound cards with 108 SNR and the Audigy SE only has 100 db SNR, but that difference doesn't look all that huge to me, and the price difference is over one hundred dollars.

For me I don't need an audio input device as I have several mixers and other equipment that perform these functions for me. What I personally need is one that will take away the background noise I am experiencing.

That Said I think it would be interesting for people to know what type of sound card is necessary for computer recording and... which ones to avoid...

There is a lot of misinformation out on the WWW (world wide web) and some of it states that the Audigy SE doesn't have a DSP. This is not the case the Audigy 2 SE doesn't, but the audigy SE does (confusing eh?) So from my perspective I've done well, but before I think I've got it all figured out... what do some of you other techno geeks think? Don't be shy !

No, no input, Derek--I'm just curous, myself.

I'd heard about the SNR problem with on-board sound (and some soundcards). I don't swing that way (as it were) myself. I do everything *off* the computer, on that little Tascam, and then upload it to post. But my soundcard is really old, too--it's an old Creative Labs Sound Blaster. And "Alice" the 'puter was built to do graphic design work, not music.

Joe

Hey Joe


I was doing a little research here and came across a thread that was somewhat helpful... It's a long thread, but the information was somewhat useful.. One thing mentioned by L William was to have a computer dedicated to one cause... in this case studio recording.. and not have it loaded down with lots of other software... I'll post the link to the thread here in a moment.
Derek

Computer Studio setup thread

Joe, if "Alice" is set up to do graphic design that includes video work she should scream with joy working audio unless you're into lots of tracks and lots of effects.

Dak, it didn't include sound. All my graphic-design work was print media. Video is somehting I'm just now acquiring the equipment for.

Joe

What you also may find is that any audio card that is INSIDE your computer is much more susceptible to RF interference and therefore more likely to produce noise than the same piece of gear further away from the power supply and CPU.

The biggest issue I've seen with all of the game-sound oriented cards (like any of the Audigys) is that there is recording latency when monitoring. If you monitor using an external mixer (I do this myself), then the latency shouldn't be an issue.

One thing you can do to improve the s/n ratio of the card, is if your mixer has (or can be fitted with) an s/pdif digital i/o jack (either an RCA digital jack or an optical jack), then you won't be using the internal analog electronics on the card, which at around only $30 for the card, is no doubt the weakest link.

USB interfaces for audio i/o start at around $80 or so. That would be your next step up.

Are you relatively happy with the SE at this point?

Hey Lwilliam

Sad part is I just bought it and haven't got it installed yet...

I've read somewhere that they've fixed the drivers and got the latency down to 2ms (real world about 4 to 7) but it doesn't specify if this applies to the SE's . What's wierd is I've seen several websites claiming the SE has no DSP, but wikipedia has it listed as having the old ca0106 which is a SB live processor.. older for sure and certainly not high end, but if they've found a way to mate it to the low latency drivers (I mentioned earlier) then I think it might be a good way to go.. I shall find out tonight and I'll post back whatever latency issues I find as well as the other pro's and cons I find out about it. At any rate if it's decent enough at 30.00 dollars it'll be a pretty darn good deal.
Derek

I have a SB Live and think I'll see if I still have the documentation. At one time it was actually in the upper half of the sound cards in quality. There's a comparison chart on the internet somewhere. I used to have it on a hard drive but that went away.
Anyway, I used the Live with quite good results in the past, running Win2K as an OS and n-Track Studio, recording one or two tracks at a time and adding to existing tracks. I did not run into latency issues at all with that setup.

Hey Dak

I'm not sure where the latency becomes an Issue... I do know with my laptop it has bad latency somewhere in neighborhood of 300ms.. sounds terribly out of sync... Though my laptop doesn't have a sound card to speak of it's simply software driven .. not even like a onmotherboard soundcard, but driven by software and cpu cycles along.. again the latency for this setup is unbearable at best..., but my onboard sound has never had latency issues so I suspect this sound card won't either.. I'll give a full review once I've got it all hooked up and working.
Derek

Hi Derek,

What are you using for a recording program? That could play a huge part in how well the Audigy works for you.

Also are you using Win XP or Vista? The reason I ask is because that will definitely influence which flavor of audio driver (ASIO or WDM) works best for you.

If you have outboard mixers, latency won't be a factor for you unless you use a softsynth or sampler like Kontakt, Halion, Dimension, Proteus VX,or you monitor through a VST effect like Amplitube, Guitar Rig, etc.

Finally, you can definitely get a very acceptable SNR with the Audigy. If you're having noise floor issues, they probably are originating somewhere else in your signal chain (ground loops, noisy mixer, bad cables, etc.). A digital mixer with spdif outputs will go a long way towards taming noise issues.

Hi Derek. I use a soundblaster and have not experienced much probs with latency. However there is a lot of noise issues if I/O levels are not set correctly. It is a case of experimenting till you get the optimum levels. Better to set levels low and work up gradually. Most people make the mistake of recording using too high an output and amplify all the distortion, hisses and hums from the chain of connections.

Hey Phil

I'm using Magix studio 12, but I think I figured out what my real problem is...

Hey everyone will be renaming this thread as I think it's an important issue that needs disussion...

I figured out what my problem really is.... it isn't the SNR of the sound cards... it's the background noise of the computer itself, mainly though the power supply...

I never added it up until last night when I was trying to eliminate some background noise. I played around for hours with different volume and gain levels; mic, efffects, mixer main, computer mic gain, effects control etc etc add nausuem, . My best results came when I was using my compressor to cut out some of the outside noise... (can't remember the control name). Still even with some of the "noise" filtered out whenever I played my acoustic loud enough to pick up it's sound I got this terrible whirring white noise in the background... that's when it hit me dead between the eyes.... my computer sounds like a 747 getting ready for takeoff.. why I didn't figure out this was the problem sooner is one of those very costly mistakes I plan to never make again...

Ok so now that my stupidity has been shown so everclear... my question becomes... with all the knowledge that gets passed around on the net... why is there so little information about this problem? Is it because most people don't use computers as thier recording medium? I hardly believe in the day and time we live in that, that is the case. Is it because most studio musicians already know about background noise and would view me as an imbecile in need of serious help?

To me for someone who is trying to record good quality acoustic music and vocals of any kind needs this information desperately.

I have a laptop that generates no perceptible noise levels and it would work just fine except for major latency issues (that's for another thread)

So for some experimentation I unplugged all the case fans and used my finger to stop both the cpu and the gpu fans.. when all other fans were quiet... there it was... the 747 from HELL!! I can't believe I've missed it for so long... all my other components are whisper quiet by comparison...

So after my Sir Isaac Newton moment TADDAA!! I went looking for silent and quiet power supplies... they are out there, but in most cases they are quite expensive... I've figured that at some point I'll get a new one, but it seems the fanless ones are hard to come by... There used to be many manufacturers now there are only a few... mostly because those who wanted them were most were gamers... The gamers were not impressed with the fact that the power supplies couldn't keep up with higher power requirements from thier power hungry cpu's and video cards.. As I say there are still some out the, but few...

So to end this.. I was wondering... has anyone else ever dealt with these issues before? And what was your Enstien moment? Are you still trying to figure out how to kill the noise?

Let's all help eachother sort through all this noise... maybe we can all get some lemonade from the lemons we've faced?
Derek

Hey Big Jim

Boy wre you right... except for one thing... It was noise levels, but not because of gain levels... it was because of my stinking 747 of a power supply lol. Thanks for the help though
Derek

Hey Derek,

I was wondering if that might be the case. Nowdays with 24 bit convertors and 24-32 bit recording, self noise is much less of a problem. It often boils down to ambient noise for those who record with a mic.

Yes, Derek, I've dealt with the exact same issues. I'll give you some suggestions in a moment but first let me encourage you a little.

As bad as room noise can be (especially when recording acoustic guitar); if you're planning on adding vocals and other instruments, a lot of that noise will get lost in the mix. And if you highpass the most offensive tracks (ac guitar or vocal for instance) at 200-225hz, you'll get rid of the low end stuff that can really muddy up a mix.

I've been home recording since 1991 and I'm amazed when I solo some of my mic'd tracks at how much noise and/or imperfections are there that just disappear in the mix.

Now, as far as dealing with "ambient noise" before you commit a track to hard disk:

If your mic has an adjustable polar pattern, make sure you use the cardoid or super cardoid setting. Then make sure (if possible) that the back of the mic is pointed directly at your noise source. You could also try a "gun" mic that, by nature, is highly directional.

Close mic your guitar and get your signal as hot as possible (going into your mixer) so you can get the best signal to noise ratio. I use a mic preamp and get as hot a signal as possible going into my digital mixer so I (hopefully) don't have to peg the output fader on the way out to the soundcard.

This is an important point, though, you do NOT need or want to slam the recording input meters in your DAW software. Set your meters to RMS and adjust the level - using the output fader of your mixer - until your record meters (in your DAW) are showing an average input of -18 dbfs. That will give you plenty of headroom to work with later.

The same advice goes for recording vocals. Use a limiter or mild compression if you can't get the signal hot enough without overloading the inputs on your mixer.

Finally, consider using a gate. Just make sure to set the release so it doesn't close too soon and cutoff part of your performance.

EDIT: Oops, forgot to mention room treatment. Go to the following website for ideas on how to treat a noisy room:

http://www.auralex.com/

HTH - Phil

Hey Derek try a suppressor on the power supply cables they are cheap and do work. Most appliances have them. Back in the bad old days radios and TV receptions were ruined when Vacuum cleaners were turned on or motorbikes drove by. Suppressors sorted out those probs. I am no expert but there are products available and they cost cents. Worth looking into. Another suggestion is to have longer cables so your recording gear is far away from the PC.

BTW You need a special licence to operate 747 jets I hope you have one.

I also use an old Creative Labs external soundcard that works very well.

My laptop does not contribute any noise except a little fan noise into the mic. But I have an external hard drive for backup with a separate power supply and that puppy makes a lot of noise! I just unplug it while recording and get no noise at all except what comes through the microphone.

A simple solution for eliminating the noise from the computer is to build a "fort" of pillows around the computer. Leave room for air to circulate, but the pillows will cut down on the noise. Another solution is to place the computer itself in a closet and use extra long cables and connectors for the monitor, keyboard, mouse, etc.

Hey Phil

Thanks for the awesome ideas!

I think eventually I will go about creating a quieter compuer, but for now I think you have a good point about the background noise coming out in the mix... I've a few songs where this worked... though most didn't have acoustic guitar... for some reason this intrument in particular is giving me heeps of problems... I'll try getting the signal as hot as I can and maybe even try recording from the other side of the room... One way or another I'll get it all figured out, but thanks so much for all your suggestions I am sure I will find many of them quite useful and others I am sure will also benefit from. I might try a piezo pickup as well as I've heard they are good at picking up only the acoustic and not background sounds while maintaining a more acoustic sound. Either way thanks for all the help I really appreciate it ..and others I am sure will also benefit from them
Derek

Hey Big Jim


I think I know what you are refering to, but this particular power supply is for case style computers... it's about the size of a shoebox (not the same shape) it's pretty much a square block and it has internal fans for cooling... The lines themself are not creating noise that I know of, but the fans are creating a windtunnel... Though once I get the piece figured out, then maybe I'll still have line noise that can be helped by supressors of some sort.. Thanks for the info and I'll tag on a picture of a power supply so you'll understand what I mean

pc power supply

Hey Colin

Yes I have a laptop that generates little noise as well. in fact in power coservation mode the fan never even comes on... it's wierd, but I can hardly even tell it's running sometimes.. However, my latency issues are terrible.... I think you have the right idea... and external sound card for the laptop would probably be the easiest solution, problem is I just spent 30.00 on one for the case midtower computer... So I'll have to wait a bit on the one for the laptop now . My soundcard on the laptop isn't hardware at all.. it's emulated codecs run by the processor... the sound isn't terrible as it's hd quality, but recording is a nightmare...
Derek

Hey Kevin

Now that's thinking outside the box! Literally! And just the type of suggestion I needed... I do have a closet in my studio that would allow the poor beast to breath, but it's full of junk at the moment... planning on a garage sale, but it's gonna be about a week... The pillow idea sounds intruiging though and if I could use them to dampen the sound and then use something to direct the sound mostly toward the wall... maybe I could actually do some recording without sounding like I'm in a wind tunnel... actually it's not all the bad till I turn up the treble and the gain... so it might not take quite as much tweaking as I think... Thanks again for these real world solutions I'll definitly been pondering this pillow idea
Derek

No problem, Derek. You're right, acoustic guitar is by far the hardest to work with if you have ambient noise to deal with.

A piezo pickup is one way to deal with it. I have an Alvarez acoustic with a piezo and I personally have never been able to warm up to the sound of it so I don't use it.

I did run across a VST called "Bodilizer" that does a pretty good job of making a track recorded through a piezo sound more natural. It's kind of expensive but you can download a demo here:

http://www.ijdata.com/products.html

Also, some great suggestions from the others on this thread. My situation won't allow for it but if you can move your computer into a closet, that would easily solve your noise problem.

You probably already know this, but your best bet on acoustic guitar is to place the mic about 5" in front of the neck-to-body joint. Gets a strong signal without too much boom from the soundhole.

Then you can duplicate the track, pan one left and one right. Then slide one ever so slightly later than the other to create a tiny delay. Then add a little reverb to both tracks. Sounds big!!

Excellent advice on the mic placement, Colin. If you're going to "duplicate and slide," though, you'll want to check the mix in mono to see if you hear phasing issues (you can also visually check phase with a plugin in your DAW).

IMO, "duplicate and slide" usually causes more trouble than it's worth. Far better to record a second guitar part (that's just a little different from the first) and then pan the two tracks. You'll get the huge sound without the phase issues.

Hey Phil

Hmm the closet.... Maybe it's time to call goodwill and see if they want all this old junk I store in there... Two computer cases 4 mother boards.. lot's of misc video and sound cards... memmory sticks... monitors (plural)... lol I could build like 3 frankenstien computers... Also I did buy a new power supply... It's an ANTEC Earth something... basicly it's made in such a way that it saves power and doesn't get as hot, which allows the fan to spin much slower... which... decreases ambient noise levels And all for 54 bucks . Yes I know the piezo isn't the perfect solution and I really don't want to go down that road, but it looks like with a couple of fixes I might not have to... Will give you update on what the power supply is like when it comes
Derek

Hey Colin

Excellent advice on the mic placement, yes I knew it already, but it bears repeating... sometimes I go just a little below the 12th fret... like around the 14th 15th... just to keep a little bass in the mix.. I'll try doing it right around the 12th and see what happens.. I like the mixing tip though wow... that does sound like it would sound big! I'll have to give it a try
Derek

Hey Phil

I think I'll try both your's and Colin's ideas I can see where they both might create interesting and desirable effects where wanted
Derek

Absolutely, Derek. Experimenting with different techniques can only benefit you in the long run.

Yes, please do keep us updated. We can all learn from this.

Phil,

Interesting point about the out of phase issue. I will have to listen to some of my stuff in mono. I haven't noticed a problem in stereo.

Thanks,

Colin

Yeah, it'll definitely be more noticeable in mono. The thing about phasing is, it's only a problem if it's a problem. If your mixes sound good and they translate well to mono then you don't have to worry about how you got there.

However, it's important (if only for the educational value) to understand that when you clone a track and shift one of the clones in time; you're deliberately introducing phase. You could achieve the same effect by recording your guitar performance with two mics that aren't properly aligned.

That's why, when you mic a drum set you have to align the mics properly to get a decent sound. You're working to eliminate phase issues.

If the two guitar tracks are out of phase, there's going to be some level of phase cancellation. This can make it much harder to find a spot for your guitar in the mix and can force you to over-compress your guitar tracks in order to deal with inconsistent volume levels (a byproduct of phase cancellation).

Again, if your mixes sound good it doesn't matter how you got there. Mixing is just as much art as science. If it sounds good, do it.

Hey Phil

I certainly will...

Wow you and Colin are literal fountains of mixing and recording information.. Thanks for all your ideas and suggestions... My only hope is I'm not the only one to benefit from all this great knowledge..

Thanks again Colin and Phil for everything and Yes I will certainly keep you guys updated!

If this was mentioned above, I didn't see it:

Make sure the "null" point of the mic is pointed toward whatever is making the most noise (computer?). By pointing the BACK of the mic towards the unwanted sound source, you'll reduce that noise by at least 20db.

That may involve you (with your guitar) facing a different way in the room.

Hey L William

This is some more excellent advice...

I've been sitting parellel with my computer... in fact the when the mic gain is up and the speakers are turned up just a little the have been feeding back... So maybe I should turn about 90 degrees left with myself facing the computer and the mic facing away? My only possible problem is hitting the record button, but I do have a wireless mouse around here somewhere so I could use it from a distance... I'll have to see what works best Thanks again for the advice.
Derek