JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum So Where Does Your Song Rank On Ourstage?

Thought I'd have just one shot this month in another genre. Please say gidday if you stumble across it.

cheers, niteshift

Hi all, I just got up on ourstage yesterday via a friend's computer with a high speed connection. A noob question here; how do I check my rank? I can't seem to find it anywhere.
M

Marc,

Good to have you with us here at JPF.

To find your ranking, near the upper right corner of the home page, click on the tab that says "My Profile". it will take it a few seconds to load. Once it loads, go down the right side iof the page and you will see your song(s) listed with its ranking in the genre/channel that you entered it. Hope that helps!

Alan

Deleted...duplicate post.

Alan

Hi Bill.

Re paying for a demo. It would all depend on what agreement you have with the studio. I pay for studio time that includes mixing and mastering and what I take away is mine to do with as I want. Any musicians who I use are paid on a work for hire basis and their contribution becomes my property to do with what I want. I have worked for studios on work for hire projects where my vocals are now the property of the songwriter who paid for the studio and my time. It is the preferred system. Sometimes as we are all pals we will work free for each other and the favours returned as required. It is a neat system but relies on mutual trust.

Things should always be spelled out before going into a studio or hiring musicians so that there are no disputes afterwards.

It may be worth while checking with the studio you used exactly what you can do with the demo they produced.

Breathe Love In and Love You Anyway finished 15th and 16th respectively but were as high as 5 and 6 at one point in the month for Country. Confusing numbers to say the least, but still cool that somebody's listening.

Thanks Al!

Big Jim
If you have a studio do a DEMO it is my understanding it is exactly that. A DEMO, short for Demonstration. It can be used for pitch purposes to publishers, etc. It CANNOT be released as a song, a single, or on a album.
You cannot put it on a CD and sell it, You cannot release it for radio play, you cannot put it up for paid downloads.

Now if you go into a studio and record your own songs that is a different matter. You are paying for studio time. If you pay for mixing and mastering that is also different. When you leave you own the song. If you have their musicians add parts that is a work for hire but I believe you should have releases from them for their work. Otherwise you will owe them royalties.

If you send a rough work tape to a demo studio and they create all the tracks and have a demo singer do the vocals that is a DEMO.
Now if you put that song on Ourstage and it wins who has won? You or the Demo studio, the musicians, and the singer?
My way of thinking it was NOT YOU. You just won a contest with someone else's music.

I agree that demo's should not be sold for download, however what is the difference in entering a demo on ourstage.com for cash/merchandise prizes versus entering a demo in songwriting contests for cash/merchandise prizes? I know the latter is allowed and done all the time.

Kevin,

It is my understanding that the number of plays listed is not connected to judging, but rather the number of times someone requested the song outside of the judging process. Daniel told me that way back at the start. So if Bill has 5 listens, those are above and beyond the judging numbers.

Brian

Bill,

Well, the USGA says that an amateur can win a limited amount in a golf contest, I believe the amount is $750 or less. Of course this is only somewhat similar.

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see how winning a prize for a demo would be a problem. Maybe you could post at the Mentor Forum and see if Stu has an opinion.

By the way, a recording that has a work for hire agreement is not a demo, it is a master. Once the parties agree it can be sold, it is no longer a demo.

It is? I will have to find out. I was told I could not use my Demos for anything other than Pitching to publishers or the like. Or for my own personal listening pleasure. I would also be able to put the songs on my site for listening purposes only.
Time for a post on the Mentor forum.

So Mike
We are talking two different things?
A work for hire Vs. a Demo?
I wonder how many folks actually know the difference?
I posted a question on the mentor forum.

I have been reluctant to use my demos for anything other than pitching purposes. I don't see how making $5,000 in a song contest is any different than selling 5000 copies of the demo for $1.00 each.

So if I took the Demo you did for me and entered it into a song competition and it won...ooooh say $5,000. You and the guys that did the demo would not be entitled to anything?

Bill,

I'll be interested in hearing what they say. I know you and I think alike in many ways. Am having trouble understanding your not being able wrap yourself around the idea of the person who payed for the demo "owning" the demo.

ie You might pay $600 or more for a demo. That's THEIR $$$ to keep no matter what happens thereafter. They were paid for a service rendered. Let's say you hire a a landscaper to renovate your lawn. He does a jam up job and eventually it wins awards which lead to some $$$. Is that landscaper entitled to more compensation? No, but he sure as heck is gonna get a TON more business if you acknowledge he did the work.

I should think a demo is no different. Think about the number of demos done...say annually. Probably tens of thousands. How many lead to a record deal??? Maybe .0001 per cent? The odds against you (the one paying for the demo) scoring with it are infinitesimal. The odds of the demo itself making mega bucks are virtually non-existent.

That's how I see it, but well see what someone who actually KNOWS has to say.

Ben: I believe the Nashville Union pay scale is different for demos versus "master" work. Therefore, you pay more for a song you want to sell versus a pitchable demo.

Kevin

Brian: That an interesting tidbit. One thing would be really nice for the artist would be to see the results of all the judging for their entered songs. Heck just a data dump of the one by one results would be great.

Your Song vs Song A -1 (..., -1 =other slightly more, 0=same, +1 =Yours slightly more, +2 =Yours More....)
Your Song vs Song B 0
Your Song vs Song C +2

That would be great to see. I think it might be useful.

Kevin

Not sure what you mean, Kevin. Well, I suppose if your talking about organized union workers who do demos (shocked to hear there's a union for that).

Like Heather, you pay her and do whatever you want with it. She doesn't say a thing about restrictions, and I'm guessing that's the case with most folks (independents, for sure).

I mean, Geez, ANYBODY who can sing and pick can run an ad to do demos, and there would be no regulations whatsoever (aside from Uncle Sam wanting his cut).

Ben
I cannot speak for Heather so I am only using her named because you did. I have a Demo with Heather as the singer. I would not even consider putting it on a CD for sale without written permission from her.

I think if you have Heather sing a Demo for you and you put it on a CD and start selling it you will hear from her lawyer, along with the rest of the session players on the song..

Some info: http://www.rmanashville.com/index.php?p=afm%20scales

Ben,

What Kevin said is correct. if you enter into a demo contract with the musicians, it can be used ONLY for demo purposes. It cannot be sold in any way, shape or form unless every demo player on the session agrees to it in writing. that is unlikely to happen. yes, the players in Nashville, fo rthe most part, are all union members. they work at union scale. the scale for a demo recording is at a lower price than the scale for commercial songs, ie...being sold for profit.

A work for hire is separate from all of that. A work for hire is a mutually agreed upon price between the conractor (person wanting/paying for the demo to be done) and the musicians on the demo session. With a work-for-hire agreement, the session players are paid for the session work an that particualr song and are not entitled to any compensation thereafter unless the contractor chooses to be generous...which they usually are not.

Work for hire, demo session and commercial session are three different beasts. Each must be handled according to law, mutual agreement and union dictates if union players are used. And the great majority of players used for demo sessions in Nashville are union players.

Hope I helped rather than hindered.

Alan

Well, then that's a GREAT question to put before Heather.

But, Bill, you're acting as though someone has a really great chance of selling scads of records and making mega bucks...if it were that easy, Heather would quit doing demos and sell the heck out of her own stuff. We all know that if you plan on making significant money from a record, with nothing BUT the record behind it, you'd be far better off collecting aluminum cans to earn some dough.

I'm a total bush-leaguer here, though. Just tying to apply common sense. I'm wondering how much dough any JPFs have earned hawking records independently? Any idea? Again, if it's that easy (obviously, I'm talking about quality product here), I might start paying for something more than a demo. Get a whole band to play and have a written contract that the finished cd is my exclusive property. Sure sounds "out there" to me that they would say, "If you want us to perform the same service we would normally perform, but you want it for more than demo purposes, we'll have to charge an arm and a leg.

That just seems VERY strange to me. I know of someone in Nashville who does demos. Think I'll write him.

I've never seen a contract. Heather will even do the music ()if you don't have any) and NOT consider it a co-write. I just can't imagine these people turning down business because of all this minutia!

Once again, all it amounts to 9999 times out of 10,000 is Chicken Little syndrome. These folks who demo know the odds are WAY stacked against you. They make their living doing demos. Why should they worry that something they recorded hit it big. Seems to me that would only help them make a ton more. And, in case I forgot to mention it, they KNOW the chances of that happening are ridiculously minute. I mean, what are they gonna do...say, "Uh, well no sir, we won't accept your $600 if you intend to make money with this", Hell, if it were THAT dang good, they oughta say, "We're gonna do this for free, we'll market it together and make a killing!

Ben,

John Heinrich, one of the best session pedal steel players in Nashvile...and sax, dobro, flute, clarinet, etc...is a good friend of mine. He is on a lot of the songs you here on country radio. We played in a band together some years ago. John does get paid more for his work on songs intended for commercial release than he does for demos. He and I discussed that last year in Nashville.

It is vaguely similar to using loops for recording your songs with your computer. you can download loops from dozens of sites on the Internet. If you sign an agreement to use them for non-commercial purposes, ie, your own demo, they cost less than if you are going to use them on music that you intend to sell or play publicly. You must digitally sign an agreement for the intended use of the loops before you download. If you use a demo/personal loop purchased at the private use price and then use it for a commercial release, they can sue the pants off of you and the law is on their side. The loops for private and commercial use are identically the same...just like the session musicians' work...but you pay more for the very same loop if it is going to be used commercially rather than for private or demo use. It is pretty much an industry standard.

Yes, you might find/know someone who does not use that same set of procedures/rules...but he/she is in the great minority.

Alan

Well, obviously, as I said earlier, Alan, I have no knowledge/experience in this. Still, if independents are in the vast minority, I would think the opportunity is beyond ripe for an independent who can produce an excellent demo to invest in getting the word out, doing it below union scale, and saying he doesn't care what you do with it. Again, if it becomes a hit (which for the life of me, I don't see how that could happen! see Milli Vanilli), he can spread the word that he did it and start knocking down the big bucks now that he's "discovered." After all, a little exposure will open the big door, ala Idol.

Bill, I'm not a lawyer or an expert on union regulations, but the way I see it, you didn't sell the song. Nobody downloaded it or copied it, you just won a prize for it. But again, I may be wrong and would be interested to see what an attorney would say. Maybe Stu will chime in on the Mentor board.

Mike

Ben,

Sounds good on paper. But, the big boys can put a lot of pressure on the little man. They have the bucks, the lawyers, the power, etc. But, if there is one independent who can take all that on and offers a superior product, I guess there is a chance it could happen in a big way. But, I'm not expecting to see it any time soon.

Oh, BTW, I'd rather NOT see Milli Vanilli! thank you, just the same.

Alan

Ben
I am not talking about becoming a mega star with a demo. But I would bet you could take a well done demo and put it on I-tunes and make money from it.
I don't understand the Milli Vanilli comparison. they were lip singing to someone else's track.

There are musicians who make a living off their music. A good living. To say you could never make any money off a demo isn't saying much.
I Loved Her First was an $800 demo. The band Heartland was unknown before the song and it went to number one. It did not matter who they were. The song made it on its own.

Sideman,





Heck, I think you'd have to reach another plane for one of them anyhow!

I am quite intrigued by this though. So you're saying someone like me, you or any other person not directly associated with "organized demonstrations" might have Guido pay us a visit? WOW!

The part (which I can't seem to get ANYONE to respond to!) that fascinates me most is the contract stating you aren't allowed to use it except for those purposes. I can't help but wonder, has there EVER been a single case of that happening. Someone taking a demo and turning it into a top 20 hit?! I can't imagine that it has. Not ONCE!

IF that IS the case, it seems like a whole bunch o' "much ado about nothing." It would be more of a, "By gosh, if you find a way to do something impossible previously, then we want a piece of the action since we sang it! BUT, IF you pay us extra, then we'll release you to pursue that thing that has less than a snowball's chance in hell of happening."

Ben,

Any plane I get on doesn't go there!

Yes, there has been a demo turn into a #1 hit. last year Heartland's song "I Loved Her First" was #1 on the country charts. The song everyone heard on the radio was the actual demo. However, all the players were on the demo session were the actual band members of Heartland. So, there were no contract issues. this is from Walt Aldridge...who cowrote the song and produced the demo.

That technically answers your question; but I know that that is not what you were really getting at. I do not know the answer to the real question you were intending to ask in your reply.

Not much help. But, it is a real answer to your question, as stated.

Guido? No...but Guido knows attorneys who do his dirty work. They're even nastier than him, sometimes!

Alan

I think Mike Dunbar's reasoning makes the most sense. If one wins a prize, it isn't because one is selling the song. Just like the JPF member who won a cash prize in the American Idol songwriting contest. He didn't sell his demo, he won on the merits of his song.

Well, Alan, that does a complete end run around my whole premise. I mean, if Elvis went into a studio just to practice (and of course it would be recorded)and it turned out so good they decided to use it, well that's just a whole 'nother deal. In fact, "That's Alright Mama" WAS born similarly to that. They were messing around during their "break" and Sam Phillips ran out and told 'em to keep going while he set up the recording device.

I'm speaking STRICTLY about a demo, done by a bunch of behind the scenes guys, AS a paid demo, that was turned into a hit. That's why I kept referring to Vanilli. Once it was out they weren't the singers, the whole thing went up in smoke. BUT, at least in that case, they had front men PRETENDING to sing.

How on earth is Joe Blow gonna take a studio recording, with NO ONE to stand up as the artist, and turn it into a hit...USING THE ORIGINAL STUDIO RECORDING?!

Man, if I ain't clear this time, I'm done. I say I'd love to talk about it, and that's true. But this is TYPING, and that's a whole 'nother deal, too!!!

Ben,

I won't bug ya any more. The Elvis scenario you used is accurate. But, that was in the 1950s...60 years ago. The business has changed a tad since then! How is Joe Blow gonna do what you asked? He probably isn't. Just giving ya the answers as I know them to be. Sorry they didn't coincide with what you wanted to hear!

Alan

Aw, come on, Alan. Now I didn't play like that...sarcastic.

You semi acknowledged my "Joe Blow" question and that IS what I was trying to get a response to for like my LAST 4 OR 5 POSTS. That, friend, is the nexus of my whole premise. Were you to re-read my previous posts with a mind not predisposed to assuming I'm arguing for the sake of argument, it should make perfect sense.

All this talk of contracts (the only song I was involved in with a pro demo outfit, there WAS no contract), and how if you go off and knock down big bucks with their demo, they will sue...well, I had trouble VISUALIZING the idea in the first place. NOT that some would require a contract, but the latter.

I have yet to hear (other than what you just said) any comments on the veritable impossibility of the guy with the demo striking gold WITH the demo, thereby resulting in a suit by the demo folks.

That's all.

The way I see it....it all depends on the agreement and any contract signed. We do not have specialist demo companies in the UK as per the way you operate in the states.

We pay for studio time and any musicians used are paid on a work for hire principal so what we walk away with is ours to do with as we like. I do not know anyone in the UK who uses a package deal service to produce a demo

Most of the people I know and work with are live performers. They make their own CDs which they sell through various sources especially at live gigs. It is not unknown for a couple of dozen or more CDs to be sold to audiences at a gig. People do make money from selling their own stuff this way.

Each studio has a list of sessionists who can be used to add parts to songs. There are singers, guitarists, drummers etc etc. Most work on a set fee for a part or are paid an hourly rate. This is all considered work for hire. Even composing tunes to lyrics is done on a work for hire basis and there are plenty who would jump at the chance for a few quid.
I can sum it up by saying the attitude of most musicians I know here is I would rather be paid something now for my work than wait endlessly in vain for my 50% share of nothing. If the song does become a hit and make any money then my name will be on it as a cowriter and I will receive the publicity. Royalties would be down to generosity. I will take my chances.

Hey Jim,

Similar scenario over this way. Book the studio, hire who you're going to hire, and that's it. Musicians are paid, and that's the end of it. No contracts as to what is a demo and what is not. The tracks are then owned by he who forked out the dosh. End of story, nice clean and simple I reckon.

cheers, niteshift

Niteshift and Jim: The question I would ask you then is -- what is the relative cost of a recorded song/demo then? I am assuming that the US had the similar situation back when things started out (I guess there were no demos in the old days -- demos were live!).

However, I have to assume that the "demo" and "limited release" concepts arose to be cheaper (and then let's make it up in volume). If "master" session prices are equivalent to your recording prices, then that make sense. Of course, this whole argument really applies in the US to large recording markets, Nashville, NY, LA, ...) where union musicians rule the roost. I am sure if I could find some talented guys locally to do a demo, then it would be a work-for-hire and I could do whatever I wanted with the tapes.

Kevin

Kevin It would appear that some people have muscled in so to speak and will produce a sort of demo but not only do they want to be paid for this they want the credit and any royalties as well. My attitude is avoid these sharks like the plague.

If you want a good studio and musicians with no strings then see Sub. I also have contacts who operate the same way he does.
As far as costs are concerned then it is down to how much you want to invest in your music and what you think it is worth. It might be a tad more expensive than a flat rate bog standard demo BUT it will be better quality customised to suit you and YOUR PROPERTY.
I can understand why some people mainly amateur hobbyists would use a demo service but serious musicians avoid them like the plague.

Hey Kevin,

Running costs for pro studios run at about $100/hr with engineer, and then there's the cost of studio musicians on top of that. So, about $1000 a day. These are the studios that the majors use for commercial release. Then it goes all the way down to about $20/hr for a guy with a small "home-style" studio, who will play some or all of the instruments and work your song up for you. Understandibly, there is a great difference in quality of workmanship, and you need to pick and choose wisely for the intent ot what you're doing with the material.

There are union rates, but they generally only apply to the symphony orchestras, the pit guys in a musical/opera/ballet, and anyone else who is "properly" employed on a full time basis in a "real" musical job. Otherwise, it's all negociable, and generally speaking, the charge rate of the studio guys will be well above whatever the recommended hourly rate determined by the union.

PS - I argee with Jim here, that if you write the song, book the studio time, hire the musicians ( including the vocalist ) and produce the number, it's your property, full stop.

cheers, niteshift

Big Jim: I am only talking about reputable demo shops that take a work tape of yours and produce a high quality demo. I have never done it, but if I come up with a great song that might have a chance, then I would probably get a demo done. If it was a country song, then I would probably use a Nashville demo service. I have read that Nashville publishers expect "Nashville quality" demos. I would only pay for the "master" or "limited release" if I was going to sing the lead on it (shuddering at the thought!).

I agree that Sub would be a great choice for doing a demo/work for hire.

Kevin

Just a warning. Do not assume that a recording is your property unless you either get a "work for hire" agreement or the work was recorded under an appropriate union contract. Are you likely to encounter a problem? No, not hardly...only if you get very lucky and your song is wildly profitable. In that case, it is possible you may spend a lot of that money you make on legal woes.

Of course you may have a different opinion, so go ahead and do what you wish

£35 around $70 US per hour is the average studio cost here in the UK and that usually includes an engineer who can set up drum loops plus play keys and guitars on request. They will sometimes work on a cost per song rate if you work a lot with them and they will take your song as far as it needs to go. I get great deals because I work with them a lot. I also know a few great guitarists who will lay down a guitar part pro recorded for around £100 ($200 US) again negotiable depending on how much work you give them and how well you know them. The same with drummers and keyboar players etc.

Hey guys, how about moving the conversatioon to.....

http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/622763/page/1#Post622763

We're getting thread drift !

cheers, niteshift

Big Jim: Based on your numbers, If wanted your songs recorded with vocals and 4 players, it would cost you around $70 + 200*5 or just over a $1,000 per hour. Is two songs per hour unreasonable if these are top notch studio musicians? Or does it take a vocalist longer?

Edit: Nite, your right, this detailed discussion probably doesn't belong here.

Kevin

I only wanted to know about song contests, Ourstage, LOL.
Guys I posted this question in the mentor forum...Please move the discussion there. We don't need to hijack this thread.

Hey Bill, We did ! Scroll up !

cheers, niteshift

LAST tangent..

Mike, I cannot fathom what legal principle the musicians would use to justify any claim to a track where their performances were recorded. The writer pays them to perform. They didn't write anything whatsoever. Again, unless there is some sort of union imposing rules, by *default*, I don't see how the musicians would really have a position.

I logged on to Ourstage today to find that my song Summertown has been moved from Americana to Singer/songwrter.

LOL - like it will have a fighting chance there

Funny - I thought that song is as Americana as you can get. I reckon maybe the definition has migrated some since I first started hearing people use it. I should have been suspicious when I saw that the genre is really titled Americana/Alt Country.

The irony of the fact that I was one of the ones complaining about people putting songs into the wrong genre is not lost on me.

I was thinking about having it pulled - then I watched Vikki's video and thought, "Lighten up, Bro"

Scott

Scott,
Trying to figure out the Genre's is lost on me.
I saw one Artist that had a song in several category's and they all sounded the same, and the songs were all pretty high in the rankings.
I have a song in Acoustic and it is face down at the bottom....behind some that are Rap, Rock, Metal, Instrumentals, ETC and some that I don't have a clue what they are because they are really bad, LOL.

Have you noticed they only have one Country Channel, everything is on there. Southern Rock, Rockabilly, Traditional, County Pop, Bluegrass, You name it.

I'd just go ahead and put it where you think it will do best and let them move it if they want.

Yeah, I agree Bill. Just wish they would have chosen something other than singer/songwriter. I'm going in with, at most, half of those

Scott

I have entered a song "Play that funky music" in Cover bands. So far it is doing OK jumped up to twenty for around 50. It would stand a chance if all the non cover stuff was removed.

They really need to get the categories sorted out and weed out the of topic stuff. I am fed up flasgging stuff. Never hear if anything gets done.

I also noted that some artists against the rules still had multiple entries in a category. This prob seems to have been sorted after I reported this so we are getting somewhere.

I think there should be a stop to late entries. I notice that some people are removing songs not doing too well and replacing them with another song. Surely that should be against the rules.

I maintain that all songs should be auditioned and vetted for quality and topic suitability before being allowed to be entered into a category. All songs should be entered before the start of the month and no late entries should be allowed. That makes sure that all songs are on a level playing field. The Q/finals should be stopped. That is when the fair voting ends and tactical voting TAKES OVER.