JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum So Where Does Your Song Rank On Ourstage?

Hey, buddy! The art on my Coactive track is not album art. It's a screenshot from the interactive remixing flash toy I made also called Coactive: www.sgxmmusic.com/coactive.htm

I do think good art is important if you are trying to win. People are affected by superficial things. You wouldn't show up to court in shabby clothes, so why enter a competition and not put up a good appearance?

I do a little graphic design and I've been using ourstage as a little exercise for myself: every time I add a new song, I do a quick 15 minute design for the track's ourstage image that I think will represent how the track sounds.

Of course, not everyone is a graphic designer, but not having a quality image or album cover kind of just suggests that you're not serious about your music enough to present the whole package well. Ideally, the music should speak for itself, and it does to an extent, but in reality other aspects affect perception too.

Other things I think helped me:

People are impatient. Your song needs to get awesome or sound like it will be awesome within that first 15 seconds of required listening.

My winning track Coactive is actually 5:30 long on the album. I entered my 2:30 edit on Ourstage and won the grand prize. I am SO glad I did that. This short edit gets the point, keeps your interest, and concludes itself in a tight, effective package.

Having fans that are willing to spend time voting for you is helpful also. I've got folks on a couple of message boards, visitors on my website, and people who've signed up for my mailing list that I asked to visit ourstage and vote for me. I think I would have done well, but maybe not won if I didn't have the help. Some people may not like that some artists with a following might have a bit of an advantage, but to that I say:

1) Ourstage encourages this. They sent an email (or was it a message on the site) to all quarterfinalists in March's competition suggesting that we do things like that to get fans to sign up and vote for us. It gets them traffic which is what they want. This is how Ourstage expects it to be played.

2) I earned those fans and I will use them. I didn't happen upon my listeners by luck - I've worked hard on music for about 7 years having a continuous online presence with a website I built myself, lots of free mp3 downloads, lots of online community participation, answering emails asking me advice on gear and technique, and most of all, making what I would call good music. Dues have been paid, I think


Oh, also remember, that it is probably futile to try to vote for yourself or get others to vote for you before the quarterfinals. Your song won't come up often enough in such a huge pool to make it worth anybody's time. Just hope you get into the quarters, but that's often a crapshoot since you'll only get maybe 10 listens. I had a track (which was a collab with a rap vocalist) in the hip-hop genre finish something like 2715th! The song doesn't suck, but I think the five people who listened probably hated the electronic sound in there and the track got buried to hell!

Hey Andrew and SGX,

You guys should help me expand the Electronic, Techno and Ambient genres in this year's JPF awards. We have a HUGE amount of Electronic based music this year and I think we may want to expand to other sub-genres (house? trance? bass and drum? etc.)

Since you guys live and breath this world, you're likely a good resource to hash this out with. (Perhaps Ourstage will then take the lead as well).

Brian

Brian, I'd be happy to help in whatever capacity you need. Just let me know what to do or where to go.

Danny; Whoops, sorry for misrepresenting the Coactive pic, it's been awhile since I used the Flash "game" (which is still just as slick as it was when you first made it!)

It's cool, andy

Brian, I'd be happy to help.

SGX,
I agree with your insights and experience. They are pretty much proof that one of the important factors to winning an OurStage contest (besides good song quality) is the fan/popularity support factor. Your fans are not likely to vote for me (different style & genre) and my fans are not likely to vote for you for the same reason. In the end, every artist has to build up their own fan base to get the kind of support that's needed to sustain the "wins" all the way to the top in the finals.

Nothing wrong with this, because this is how it works in "real life". Ok songs and acts might get ahead of great songs just because there are other factors involved such as: fan base, popularity, image, entertainment value, marketing dollars, connections in "high places", blah blah blah, you get the picture. There's always more than meets the "ear" and artistic beauty is in the "eye" of the beholder.

So the message is, build up your fan base and don't be "ashamed" to get tons of support because if even one artist is doing this, then everyone has to do it to be able to compete. Am I saying song quality doesn't count... No, because without generally good music quality, it's harder to build up a fan base in the first place, but once you have a strong fan base, you can get support for relatively weaker material that can still get you pushed to the top.

There's nothing new here... keep improving your writing and production skills, but that's "dead in the water" without some great marketing and promotion to back it all up.

Michael

Seems like this post has been abandoned
BUMP

What's up with Ourstage
I had my song entered in singer/songwriter/male and was watching it slowly make it's way higher each day.
then;
I log on and it has been switched to a new channel Singer/songwriter
Now my song is clearly Male and I am the only singer so who and why was it moved.
If I move it back I lose all the ground I have gained.
They should have to at least warn you if they are going to move a song so you have a chance to argue the point.

I took the plunge today!...

www.ourstage.com/profile/bobcushing

Here are my contest entries..

C'mon Big Brother---Male Singer/Songwriter

I Need a Lover{Not a Mother}--Americana/Alt-Country

The Next Best Thing--Bonaroo

Middle Aged Crazy--Indie Rock

Send Daniel a note.. I know they are working on cleaning that channel up.

Brian

Go Get 'em Bob

They won't know what hit them.

Good luck buddy

Brian..which Channel are they trying to clean up?, for I will probably sully it even more! {LOL}? Thanx Bill!

O.k, Now that I'm up and running, any advice on how to increase traffic?

Bob I don't think you can actually increase traffic on the judging. It is completely random. If your fans are willing to sit there and work through the judging until you pop up they can then give you a great vote but that's about it.
Of course you can get the number of plays to increase by just listening to your song but it does not seem to impact judging.

The Blue Island Beer Club jumped on the bandwagon (or Our Stage) today and posted one of my instrumentals....

Stocking Island

I am a little confused about where we are suppose to post our good happenings on the OurStage site. But I just wanted to say THANK YOU!! To all of those who have voted for my song. I know some of you have been doing that. Follow Your Dreams has been hanging in there at #6 on the country channel. I know it is still WAY to early to tell what will happen. My goal at this point is to make the top 20 by the 25th. I have a couple others that are creeping up there. Thanks again everyone! I wish you all big success on the site there! It really is fun hearing all the talent!

Happy Mom's day to all you moms!!

Tammy

www.tammyedwards.com
www.myspace.com/tammyedwards2

Hey 'Folks...

Just signed up....right now they're dredging the river for where my songs are...I could use some extra love if you have some to spare

http://www.ourstage.com/music/channel/67-americana/WRXUANRMPDYH-run-mary

http://www.ourstage.com/music/channel/19-country/HPXHUWNPLVGU-long-grass-and-the-tall

http://www.ourstage.com/music/channel/81-folk/SVULNFAXBNVO-when-that-water-comes-running

how did you find out nicole berke was cheating on ourstage? i saw she had some banners up on her myspace, like "vote for me," but i think ourstage gives you those to put on your myspace...was she doing something else to get votes?

She was giving instructions on how to rig the system to vote for her no matter who she was competing against and to ALSO vote "same" on all the others without fairly judging. Another artist used a similar tactic but told everyone to intentionally vote the leading songs as losers (even if they were better) every time they came up to hurt them in the rankings, thus raising his own. Both are sleazy tactics in my opinion and violate the terms of service on Ourspace which says something to the effect that you can't do anything to harm the fairness of the voting.

Brian

My masterpiece, "Hey, American Dream" is only 593/917 in Rock. I guess the listeners have a different concept than I do of what a masterpiece is (LOL!). One of these days maybe I'll be able to write/record a tune that will resonate with the listeners of a OurStage channel.

OurStage: http://www.ourstage.com/music/channel/17-rock/KBYRGWFKJGKT-hey-american-dream

Kevin

Kevin
You are being voted better than 314 songs.
My song "His Last Time" is being voted better than 405 songs in the male singer songwriter channel. Ha!

nightcandy - 11th in Guitar Solo

the ipod, xbox, cellphone, laptop blues - 88th in JVC Jazz Festival Newport

sexasaurus - 94th in Blues
Played: 110 Favorited: 0

over my head - 151st in Alt. Rock

moolah be praised - 211th in Indie Rock

if jesus wore shoulder pads - 231st in Folk

l.e.o. ain't high enough - 265th in Music Videos

sunset - 274th in Pop

fut the shuck up - 293rd in Rock sponsored by First Act

darwin's rosary - 344th in Hard Rock

viva la cerveza - 355th in Experimental

what's mine is yours - 389th in Christian / Spiritual

slide in slide out - 600th in R & B / Soul

funkyjooze - 1640th in Hip-Hop

6 feet away - 321st in Rock sponsored by First Act, August 2007

angel of death - 519th in Hard Rock, April 2008

rock on,
r.

Currently hovering in the twenties in country and about 150 in the folk category. Highest finish was 2nd in country last year before most JPF folks knew about the site. Only entered those three songs so far.

Brian,
Minor point, but in your last post (see quote excerpt above) you said "Ourspace", but you probably meant OurStage!

Michael

Brain,
Everyone here agrees that those are sleazy tactics, but the job/challange that OurStage has is to program their sytem so it's virtually impossible to "bypass" their fair judging process and ranking system.

All kinds of scam, phishing and virus emails are outright sleazy and evil, yet these can be almost entirely eliminated with good computing practices and server measures. The weakest chain in the link will always be attacked first, and I'm sure OurStage is aware of this problem and continue to tweak their system to avoid all attemps (ranging from "Jr. High" to High-tech) to compromise their ranking process.

Here's another potential "hole" they might need to plug. A band of 4 guys could share the same band profile (login account), but then each could also register their own personal "fan" login account. So now all four (plus their managers & street teamers) could work as a team to bump up their song rankings in any given contest channel. As might be expected, they could vote on a "curve" against competing songs while giving their own songs the highest "By far" votes.

I don't think there's an easy way to plug this hole, but the best way is to have literally thousands of fans whose collective votes would way outnumber the attemps of any artist or band to "bump" their own songs. Only problem is that some bands might have a very loyal fan following, so it will be difficult to get them to vote for other competing artists or bands.

But all in all, OurStage is probalby still the best online voting alternative around, so we might as well use it and make the best of it!

Michael

No idea where I rank now at all. My computer at home is down (no internet) and can't access the Ourstage site here.

Maybe you should not have a chance to vote for yourself, just let fans do the voting.

None of my songs has moved an inch for about 3-4 days. I miss the volatility I've come to expect.

There is one thing that I wonder about. And that is, if you do vote your own song better than the one against which it is paired...are you penalized for doing so? Here is why I wonder about that.

During the month of May, I have been presented with the opportunity to vote on my songs paired against another five times...once on one song and twice each for two other songs. On the song which came up only once, I actually voted the other song better than mine, because it was. On my other two songs, each of which came up twice for my voting, I voted one of them "slightly more" and "more"; and for the other one of mine that came up twice, I voted "more" both times because I thought that was legitmately true.

The song for which I voted against myself, because the other song truly was better, has stayed, more or less, at the same position...up and down less than ten positions. On the two songs for which I voted myself a more favorable vote, "more" or slightly more"...both to of those songs took an immediate and severe nose dive within 24 hours.

I had a similar incident in last month's voting. When I voted against my song, it maintained a fairly steady ranking. The song for which I voted myself a better rating dropped dramatically the next day.

Is this simply a matter of coincidence that repeated itself, or is there really a penalty if you do vote yourself higher higfher than the song against which it is paired?

If the other song is better than mine, I will vote it accordingly. I have done that twice already. However if I honestly feel mine is better, I feel I should vote it that way. But now, I am very reluctant to vote for my own song. I am inclined to vote "same" when one of mine came up.

I have been a very vocal supporter of OurStage, so there certainly is no axe to grind on my part. But, I am now a bit suspicious. Should I be?

Al

Al,
No need to be suspicious. I think the best policy for OurStage would be to simply NOT allow anyone to vote/judge their own songs, period. This is how all other song contests work including the JPF awards. Volunterr judges can NOT judge on their own stuff, period.

I've had the same experience with my songs coming up against others, but it's a real dilema for me as well. Technically, this shouldn't even happen and there's no excuse for it. They know when artists are logged in and artists should not have their own songs pop up in the voting process to be "tempted" to vote on, period.

I thought it was an error or that maybe they're still working on this. So if this is not a "bug", and their policy is to allow all artists & bands to vote on their own material, then they might want to review their voting policy. It's a huge numbers game so maybe the votes those won't matter much in the final outcome, but maybe they do. It all depends how many artists vs. fans are voting.

Maybe Daniel Palmer can fill us in about their voting policy.
Michael

So far my song has only come up a few times and I have voted it by far. Most people agreed but it is hardly surprising as the songs against me were pretty bottom of the pile in ratings and. Interesting to see what happens if I ever get to vote my song against anything in the top half I wonder how many people would agree. I am currently in the low twenties however JMO I should be a lot higher there are several songs I feel are not as good and are undeserving the position. Nice to be positive. LOL

Thanks Jim for sharing... and see, again there's my point which I can phrase in a question: Why does OurStage even allow artists who have entered songs into contests, to vote on themselves? I thought that the cardinal contest rule was that artists and songwriters can NOT vote for themselves and best NOT AT ALL in the channels they have entered songs into.

This month I have four songs in four different channels, so if I want to vote, I could vote in all the other (approx.) 30 channels, but maybe NOT in the ones I entered. It would be a very simple thing for the software program to monitor.

Quit simply, if they know you entered into Folk for month of May, you can't vote anything in that channel, period. Because if you cold vote in that channel, even if your song doesn't appear because it's blocked out, you could still vote artifically low against all your competitors, see?

So I think we should bring this point up to Brian, Daniel and the OurStage management team to make this basic point very clear:
There's NO need for OurStage artists & bands to be allowed to vote in any channel for which they have entered a song for any given contest month. Note: they should also monitor additional account profiles that artists & bands can set up using other email addresses, etc.

Before a song is entered or after it has been withdrawn, it's Ok, to vote/judge in that channel again. I know JPF follows this same high standard, and if they didn't, their song awards would be compromised and would not be nearly as valuable or meaningful.

Well, let's see where this might go, but I think if they did this right, it would elminate such potential conflicts of interest.

Michael

I've been voting, but so far haven't seen our songs, although just entered two today, (Two live performance songs), "You Girl Only"", and London's Ferris Wheel".

My question is: How do you get to see all the songs in any channel?
I have clicked on "Charts", and just the top ten for each month come up. Is there some secret code I don't know yet?! Or don't they have the list as before, with page after page of the complete rankings?

Thanks, John

It would be silly to tell people not to vote on their own songs. The cheaters would simply log in as someone else, so the honest people would be faced with becoming cheaters or being punished for being honest. Instead, let everyone vote on themselves. If the system is built to prevent (or at least significantly decrease the value in) cheating, it shouldn't be relevent. That said, I know there are people on there voting day and night all month long. I was one of them for about 10 days while I waited for our own awards database to become available and found myself with the very unusual dead time to do so. I voted in over 5000 matches and got every single song dozens of times if not more in the category I was voting on. I had every song notated so I knew where I ranked each by the end. (Of course my rankings had almost zero to do with the end result once Bergeron and the other cheaters got done). BUT.. by doing so, I learned about a lot of other artists and some were JPF members that I didn't know or hadn't met before. I have to think there are many artists, especially who aren't gigging or don't have families to deal with, that are voting constantly (honestly or otherwise). Why punish the honest people?

As for you voting against yourself Al, I am not naive enough to think that most people, when no one is watching, are actually voting against their own song. Everyone can SAY they are.. but I've been doing this long enough and have known too many artists to think that would be the normal behavior regardless of what song is better. If you build the site knowing that artists will vote for themselves and still keeping it fair, I think you're far better off. And if you don't have time to invest in voting at all, then it's your loss, but a fair one since those that do help keep the site going. If you removed all the voting done by people using the site for their own songs, I bet you'd lose the majority of all votes at this point. That's just the real world. But I know a lot of folks who vote in channels they have no songs in, and that is valuable input into the system. In our own awards, we don't let people vote in their own categories, but we also don't have 50K people voting on thousands of songs. When we open the flood gates in the final round, we very carefully control what genres people access and vote in and we watch closely for irregularities (which we've found and fixed in the past). Ourstage can't possibly do that. So they have to build the system with reality, and not pure honesty, in mind. In my opinion, I think they underestimated the lengths people would go to try and cheat. The reality is that people can be evil and selfish and obnoxious and until you've dealt with them one a wide basis as those of us who do so with large communities that we interact with over a long period of time, you just can't understand it to the level it happens. I think they are learning a few hard lessons quickly and it appears that in most cases, they are adapting to these lessons where possible. Staying ahead of dishonest people isn't easy sad to say. That's why there will always be crime in the world no matter what efforts society makes to keep it in check. Best, in my opinion, to accept certain global truths (such as artists voting for themselves) than to punish only the honest.

Brian

Michael it all depends on how many people are judging. If there are thousands then 1 person voting for their own song will not make much if any difference. It would be interesting to see just how many people are judgeing in the categories. It is not like normal voting on other sites where you can vote for you song sometimes multiple times. It is very hard to jack up any song just by judging one song against another. I think the biggest thing that causes problems and unfairness is being allowed to vote same. This should be stopped. I am sure that there is always something that can influence you to vote on a song being better than another. Whether it is tune, arrangement, lyrics, performance, recording or even artwork there is always something to seperate each entry.

The people that excessively use "same" are generally those who don't really care in the first place. All you'll do is force them to randomly vote one over another. With "same" it has no effect on either song.. it's like the vote never took place. That's far better than thousands of false randon votes you'd get instead.

Brian I am puzzled by your logic. You say that voting same has no effect. I have spent many hours voting and it is clear that I get the same songs over and over yet other songs appear infrequently. So if a merit point is scored each time I vote a song better the fairness of the system is totally dependant on EACH song appearing and being voted on the same amount of times as all the others. This is almost impossible to achieve allowing for the random factor and also that some people may only vote a handful of times. I suspect that the system is more complicated than you imagine and certain that voting same does have a profound effect. Logically it has to have an effect regardless of what points or positioning system is in operation.
Do you have this opinion that voting the same has no effect on overall positioning on good authority or is this just your own personal opinion?

I am also puzzled at the false random votes statement.

You are also assuming quite wrongly that thousands of people have no judging ability and are unable to express an opinion other than random. If this is the case why bother voting in the first place. Provided people are fair and honest I trust them to pick the better song most of the time. Obviously personal opinion and tastes differ.

I have one song in folk that entered at 400 plus and as of yesterday is 78 on about 90 votes. Is this good or bad? I can't vote because on dial up it is like watching paint dry waiting for the songs to load.

I get to be at both ends of the spectrum...... No7 in electronic, and No 218 in blues,..... is there something I should be learning here ? Oh, I got it, no one likes a sad song I guess ?

cheers, niteshift

well I don't vote that often but I have yet to see my own songa. But there is over a thousand songs on my channel.
All I know is so far it looks like I really suck, LOL.

Big Jim, Brian mentioned before that "Same" is calculated as what he called "a zero sum game". In other words, it is not the case that the bottom song when judged against the top song will pull both closer to the middle. Instead, a "Same" vote does nothing for either side. Brian, please correct me if this is incorrect.

This seems pointless to me, and I still have trouble believing it. In essence, it would mean every "same" vote adds nothing to the contest...and I would venture to guess that "same" is probably the most selected option of them all. However, if "Same" counted for something, then there would be some significance when a new song arriving at the bottom of the heap is heavily voted "same" as top ranking songs.

Brian, did I understand you correctly?

Mark that is my point. I understand Brian's theory. However it is flawed because each song must have the same amount of fair judgements for the system to be fair. Put another way a song with few contests voted on the same has lost potential votes to boost it or lower it so it has little chance of moving. A song that has more contests has a greater chance of picking up votes whilst neither gaining or losing ground if votes are cast the same.

I think the system is based on percentages. If a song has a higher percentage voting it better than another song then it moves to one above that position. Therefore positions are constantly changing. even this system cannot be completely fair as some songs get more contests or only contests against the lower ranking songs whilst others come against the top or have fewer contests. Just to throw another spanner some people only judge a few contests anyway. How does that affect the judging.

Let me simplify this.

A song can get +3, +2, +1, 0, -1, -2, -3 depending on where the scoring ends up. If you vote a song By Far better than the other, you give one song +3 and the other a -3. That's fine if it's a true vote. It really sucks if it's not. If someone is on there simply to vote until their song (or their friends song) comes up, and they are voting SAME.. it's 0 points for or against either song. If they are forced to vote one way or the other, then some song is going to get screwed over and drop in the standings simply because people were forced to choose one or the other and if they aren't really listening to the songs in the first place, they'll be doing it randomly. It's reality.

In a perfect world, people would listen to the entire song each time and make an honest vote. But we know people won't do that. Jim himself has admitted that some songs he can barely make past 15 seconds. That's not a thorough judging evaluation at all. I come across really good songs all the time that would never do well based on the first 20 seconds of it. But I understand the reality of mass judging.

So, if you had it your way Jim, the voting will be even worse than it is now with even more cases of good songs losing to really bad ones. And so you know, I once felt the same way as you do.. but in talking with people involved in Ourstage, it became clear to me that the SAME vote serves an important purpose. That's about as much as I can say on that matter.

Brian

I knew the competition was tough but I just checked the comments of the song currently leading in the Americana group and the dude had Richie Furay sing backup vocals. I mean rock and roll hall of famer, lead singer of Buffalo Springfield and founder of Poco. Yikes.

I think Ourstage gives good insight into how tough the task of an A&R person, music publisher or Taxi screener can be. Here are my 'average Joe' (or Steve) observations on the Ourstage submissions I've 'judged' or listened to:

- Most intros are too long
- More emphasis is placed on musicianship on most songs than the vocal
- Folks are using way too many effects - on the voice, on the instruments
- Not a lot of attention is being paid to recording quality by some submitting - I'm not saying a recording has to be studio quality, but the listener should be able to hear it clearly
- Really strong songs (lyrically) are few and far between

With that being said, I enjoy the Ourstage process and enjoy listening to the various songs and artists.

Steve V

Interesting!
So OurStage is starting to attract some pro-level artists! That would be more like the JPF song awards which gets a good "mix" of amateur and professional artists and songwriters. Good thing for everyone... certainly raises the bar and could attract a wider public!

Michael

I thought I'd try an experiment. I uploaded my May entry into the soft rock category almost two weeks ago. When I entered it, I didn't upload a picture to go with it, just let the default OurStage "no picture" logo come up. For nearly two weeks, the song settled slowly toward the very bottom of the pile. Then I uploaded a colorful, unusual looking picture. In less than two days, the song jumped 347 places.

You need the whole package.

Mike

Yes, that foot is such an attention-grabber!

I am afraid my song "Hey, American Dream" is flopping in the Rock By First Act category. it seems to be in the bottom third - waaaaahh!

Kevin

I uploaded "His Song" in Instrumental as my experiment with OurStage. I was pleasantly surpised to see it go from the 30's to the 20's. Disheartened to see it fall to the 40's and now laughingly shocked that it is in the low 300's. I know my simple piano improv based on a theme i wrote that day is not perfect, and I know from my judging that there are clearly some outstanding instrumental pieces.

My challenge in Instrumental (not based on my song) is the difference in judging compositions which are musically based versus those that are looped based (and often one chord throughout). When I hear something looped based, i will randomly click ahead in the song and score lower if I hear the same thing over and over no matter where I advance. I'm also amazed when judging and seeing how my vote compared to others. It's been eye opening.

I'm not sure if I will enter any vocal songs. The jury is out on that one. I'm confident in the song, but not confident in my productions. The singer/songwriter competition for April was amazing.

it's been addictive and fun.

Dave

Is anyone else having trouble getting the songs to load on the judging site? I haven't been able to do it for days. It just shows the spinning disks without the pictures or music loading. I was just wondering if it is my computor or not. Thanks!

Tammy

www.tammyedwards.com
www.myspace.com/tammyedwards2

Hi Tammy Yes sometimes I have to refresh or come out and go back in. It only happens intermittently. I think it is just down to excessive traffic.

One thing I find bizarre I voted my song as better by far against another and 97% of the people judging agreed with me. Now that is conclusive by anyones measures. Yet the song that 97% think is far worse than mine is still 18 places higher. How can this be? I thought that it might take a few hours to sort out but no a day later and it is still the same. Personally I do not think the system is as accurate or reliable as we are led to believe.