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Give us back our Pop Idol....No on second thoughts you can keep it.

Jim,

You misunderstand me. I'm not suggesting the fine people of the U.K. stop playing our Blues and Rock. Nor do I want to give the fine people of the U.K. their Pop Idol back (funny, I've never seen Pop Idol here?).

I am saying that you, Big Jim, hater, should stop playing OUR Blues and Rock.

Well we call it Pop Idol you call it AI. You are very lucky if you have not had to suffer watching AI.
I do not quite follow what you are saying. Are you suggesting that I am not entitled to an opinion. Or because there are certain things and people I dislike or do not think are talented I should stop playing the things I do.
I state my opinions and am honest about them. I do not hide behind anything and do not give false praise or ass lick. I tell it like I see it and am not really bothered if people disagree.
If people do not like my stuff I respect that as their opinion.
I just wish some of the fine people of the US would be honest and stop being on the defensive when someone criticises. I am not a hater. I love music. There are however some really overrated acts and songs in the charts. Maybe if we all were a bit more discerning and honest about some of the music we are bombarded with then things would improve. Till then everyobdy apathetically says Oh he is good I liked that oh they deserve to be top of the charts or whatever. I may not be the best singer in the world or write the best lyrics but compared to some of the chart stuff I am clearly not the worst. I asked people to justify Jason Blumes lyrics and nobody did. I asked on another thread for people to comment on our UK top ten. Nobody did.
Early on in my career I had a run in with a big manager who wanted me to join his up and comimg band. I told him in no uncertain terms why I was not interested. Others were licking his ass literally to be the singer. He said he wanted me. I still told him I though he was a crook and would have nothing to do with him. I was proved right he was a crook and my nose is still clean and not coloured brown. Congratulations to Mr Blume for his success and for being a mentor. I do not know what that means because I have not seen any of his contributions. Personally I think that his contribution to the music world is minimal.

Hey Bill, to answer your question about an album debuting at number one...

The way the charts work is on a weekly basis. So when "Modern Times" was released it sold like a mad bastard, something like 192,000 copies if I recall, the best Dylan had done in 30 years. There was no single released, I don't think...not sure about that.

Anyway, based on all those initial sales that week, the first time the album was able to take a place on the Billboard charts, that place was #1. So "debut" is a little misleading...it just means that the first week they measured the sales, he had already slam dunked and came out on top.

All right Big Jim, you're crossing a line...you can run, but you can't hide...the operative word in your previous quote is that you "fail" to understand the whole Dylan thing. But I think most of your favorite rock and roll influences did NOT fail to recognize the significance and talent of Dylan.

Unfortunately, the same consensus does not yet exist among the rock and roll community regarding the all-encompassing impact of the timeless work of Jason Blume. Hey, I'm just sayin'...

Hey "Folks"

I've been on the sidelines following this thread with mixed feelings and thinking that if I step into this fray I'll just end up ticking someone off when I don't want to.

There has been a lot implied about the quality, or lack thereof, of Mr. Blume's music and I feel this is not helpful to any aspiring writer. There is a lyric posted by someone that says in essence; they are not a fan of Hanna Montana. Well I'm not a Hanna fan either but my granddaughter is! It is not about whether or not we are fans of a given individual. It's about becoming the best writers we can be individually, no matter what our taste in music may reflect.

I haven't bought Mr. Blume's book (6 steps) but that doesn't mean I won't. If I determine that his insights may help me with the business of getting my songs placed I'm shellin' out. So far I have only purchased one book on songwriting and that was Tom T. Halls book.

Anyone who can "teach" me something about "anything" I need to help me improve even the smallest facet of my skills is someone I am going to be open to.

I am impressed with Jason Blume's willingness to donate so much of his time to help teach would be writers the ins and outs of this sometimes brutal business. It's not about his songs. It's about our songs. No matter what we write, are we satisfied that we are doing our very best. To drive home that point I will close with a quote from Jason in a 2004 interview with Doak Turner:

"If you are going to write fluff, make sure you are feeling fluffy, or it is going to sound fake, and it won't be as good as the person who is down the block who feels fluffy that day."

Wayne

I am not crossing a line I am just stating that as a performer I did not like him much. I did say he wrote some good songs when they were recorded by others. I think his influences was more a rebel icon thing as opposed to a genius writer and performer. You yourself said he bummed around looking for gigs and trying to get in on the action and nobody liked him.

I'm giving you a hard time, Big Jim...I'm a huge Dylan fan. His influence was brilliant music, brilliant performance, and, sure, rebel icon. But if all you see is the icon, you're missing the point. Time to go back to school, James Merrilees, and read what people like Lennon and Harrison learned from Mr. Zimmerman. (He was a pest when he was 18-19 in Dinkytown in Minneapolis...things changed).

No.

In my opinion, yes.

Ouch Touche Bob!
Derek

Dylan is from my area.
The first original I ever attempted was a "Knocking On Heaven's Door" type folk rocker.
I played synths first and that almost made me feel legitimate when I started playing that guitar to make an "original".

There are some that follow greatness while there are others to where greatness follows them.
And there can be no ratings system to measure a legend like that.

Um Bill...

I hate to burst your bubble..., but everyone you mentioned in classic rock I would consider as oldies (especially Buddy Holly). Classic rock is: Bad Company, Lynard Skynard, The Bellamy Brothers (before they went country) and the Eagles.
Derek

Did you guys read where Gibson Guitars is suing the makers of "Guitar Hero?" It appears that the plastic Guitar Hero guitar is in the classic Les Paul shape (as distinct from the oldies Stratocaster shape). Gibson owns this shape as a trademark, so now they are suing Guitar Hero...bet they'll make a bundle on it.

Now, can anyone drift this thread further? I doubt it.

THREAD DRIFTERS RULE.

Not to mention Don McClean and Madonna "Bye Bye Miss American Pie"

So who gives a [naughty word removed] if it's called classic rock or oldies rock that ain't what the discussion was about.
God this is pointless.
We were talking about whether the kids today even listen to Dylan or even know who he is.
But they do know who Buddy Holly is and Elvis. And The Beatles.

The classics made the rock and the rock made the classics.
And the old jazz players kept playing what they do.

But nowadays, the cigar would be pulled from their mouths and the liberals would act like they wanted to stone them to death.

Dylan wrote "listening" music, not dance music. You can't dance to all of Dylan's songs. You can dance to ALL of Buddy Holly's, Elvis', and Jason Blume's songs. That's one reason why teenagers now don't know Dylan.

Until there's another revolution in popular music such as when the folksingers aligned with the protesters against the draft, which was drafting teenagers, I doubt if a majority of teenagers will ever get interested in music that is not dance or mating ritual music.

(Notice how I cleverly injected some small bit about the actual topic of this thread?)

Hey Mike.

Ok this time you haven't got your facts straight Mr Foot lol. Actually Gibson loaned them the design (which they paid for) the dispute is that Gibson says they own the patent to the whole concept behind guitar hero.,. their reasoning being that they have a patent claiming ownership of the idea of a guitar being used in an interactive way. Here is the link to the Inquirer article ( no it's not the national inquirer)




Gibson Guitar Hero story

And here's a pic from the National Enquirer story (Thread Drifters really DO rule):

Bill

You're getting all upset again over nothing calm down. I was just mentioning that classic rock is a different genre than the artists you mentioned. I think your point is a valid one, the Beatles certainly do enjoy more of a popular following than Dylan; however, he still is a much more creative writer than them in my opinion. Read the lyrics to some of his songs and and ask yourself (how the hell did he do that?) he's dylan he can get away with it. The only other writer I know of that has his same ability to write creatively is Bruce Springsteen. If I had two songs to compare from both of them it would be "Bye Bye miss American Pie" and Blinded by the Light" two of the most cleverly written songs ever in my opinion.
Derek

Why? Kind of a strange request. I think a fuller explanation is required.

Damn you Mark Kaufman !

I was trying to make a serious point about that guitar hero story I guess I'll just have to hop on a plane fly to Minnesota find out where you live, find a long stick walk to your house.... On second thought.... DON'T EVER DO THAT AGAIN!
There that oughta do it lol jk Bro Mark

Not in my opinion

I know about Dylan and his influences and the Beatles etc. I lived through that era. I was just stating that a lot of people followed the hype and the rebel icon they only pretended to like and understand his music as it was considered fasionable.
He did influence a lot of musicians no doubt. IMO and a lot of others he was not a great singer and the few performances I have seen him doing live was pretty poor. HE DID WRITE SOME GREAT SONGS. I am not slating Dylan just giving what I think is a balanced opinion.

Derek, I hate to burst your bubble, but it's not national inquirer, it's National Enquirer.

Well everyone is entitled to their opinion. I have been asked to and tried to justify mine so why are you so different.

Sheesh grammatic details, they will always be my downfall . Thanks for the correction brother Mike .
Derek

Big Jim,

Do you do everything you're asked to do?

Green african elephants from mars invade Plutonian colonies on the moons of Jupiter!!!
Now that's thread drift
Derek

If I am asked nicely and it is within my capabilities and does not break the law...YES.
But I am a sucker for favours.

Then please, sir, as a favour to me, stop singing our Blues and Rock.

I was expecting that. Sorry cannot do. Do you have proof of ownership anyway? I have a living to make and contracts to fulfil but I will split the difference I promise not to sing any Jason Blume songs.
However it would be nice to hear why you want me to desist singing these songs.
Perhaps if your reasons were worthwhile I might consider it as
I sing a lot of stuff and only a tiny percentage is American.

Speaking of Jason Blume, here's the BMI article on his celebrating ten years of teaching free monthly seminars at the BMI office. I recommend that anyone living in Nashville, or visiting here when one is scheduled, should attend.

http://www.bmi.com/news/entry/535856

OK I concede
Every song Dylan wrote was perfect, Brilliant. Someday, in future generations, they will compile a Book around his songs and call them sonnets or Psalms or something and a new Generation of faithful followers will erect great statues to him.
They will perform ritual sacrifices to him and Proclaim him a prophet.
It will be said if you follow his teachings you will be reborn to a higher plane of existence.
They will find hidden secret scrolls that prove he performed miracles and walked on water. The world will be saved.

Great scholars will hold classes to teach folks like me what he meant in the lyrics that I find contain a whole lot of Gibberish but it is certain they have glorious hidden meanings in them that my simple mind just cannot grasp.

I will have to tell my Grand children to start studying his lyrics so they will understand the meaning of life.

I just hope they have a little compassion for the rest of the songwriters and don't proclaim their drivel as sacrilege and burn them.

Well, my experience with young musicians in Chicago tells me that Dylan is still impacting some young folks in the same way he was impacting some young folks ten years ago, and twenty years ago, and yes, even thirty years ago. Does the average teenager listen to Dylan? Probably not, but I think many of them know who he is and can name a song or two of his. It is funny, but with every generation there seems to be a percentage of young musician/songwriter types who think they have rediscovered a lost masterpiece and will sing one of the really overdone Dylan songs, or even in some cases build their repertoire around them. Yes, I believe Dylan is still having a large impact on some people, and since they are often the creative ones, his influence will continue to be felt by current and future generations.

I had heard of Jason Blume before joining Just Plain Folks, but would probably not remember where I heard of him or why his name was familiar if not for this site. I have only heard positive things about him, so I take it on faith that he is really good at what he does. I would certainly go to one of his classes if the opportunity arose AND it was free.

I happen feel like you can learn something from almost anyone if you pay attention to what they have to offer. The lesson may be something they themselves haven't even grasped, yet.

Jack Swain, sir, you get it!

Here we study an art, not a science. Is a certain song "good?" According to whom? To the professional critics? Your friends? Your family? The songwriters you know? The guy on tv? The radio announcer? No, who decides if a song is good...is you. So, as songwriters, we owe it to our work to develop our taste. Learn the genres, get inside of them.

If a song is popular, if it gets played on a jukebox or downloaded a lot, there's a reason. Listen to it, study it. Listen to it in context of other songs in its genre and style. Then learn how to "hear." Shouldn't a songwriter be able to tell a major from a minor chord? How about a minor seventh? A thirteenth? Should a songwriter know what iambic pentameter is? Or simile or metaphor? A verb from a pronoun? At what point should the learning stop?

Again, again, again, I recommend to all songwriters...to all musicians, all artists...fill your pallette. Fill your "bag of tricks." Sharpen your tools. Songwriters, learn as much as you can about music, about language, creative writing, songwriting, dance, acoustics. Seek teachers (both instructors and demonstrators...lecturers and performers). Read books, magazines, articles.

I also highly recommend that artists teach. Teaching is one of the best methods of learning. Use the "Socratic Method," or teach a child to play "Stairway to Heaven" on the guitar. Or teach them to write a song.

Is a teacher trying to make money? You don't have to pay them if you don't want to, if you determine they are valuable, do so. Good teachers do a lot of free teaching (because they want to learn, good teachers haven't stopped being students). Is the teacher not a great guitar player? Doesn't mean the teacher isn't a great teacher of guitar. There are great coaches who don't play the game. I've taught Eddie Van Halen's "Eruption" to students...but I can't play it...they can.

Please. Don't stop learning. Don't fall for the argument that learning isn't "cool" or "necessary." Learning is the greatest thrill on earth, video game designers figured that out, you go through the game then your character gets foiled several times until eventually you reach your "goal" then you jump up and shout "Hooray!" Why? Because you learned how to do it.

Learn. Be good. Do good. Let the critics fall where they may.

I never liked Dylan as a singer(placed him just above Tiny Tim) but I liked his earlier songs, not fussy about anything lately though. My wife liked Dylan as a singer, she likes me who dislikes her likes in singers, that's what makes the world go around. One mans meat is another mans poison.

Everett Tiny Tim was a far superior singer than Dylan. He could sing in reasonable pitch and had expression.

Mike great read...your enthusiasm and advice for the learning curve of not only songwriting but music in general is impressive..and Kudos to Mr Blume for his songwriting classes,tho i would imagine you would need to be up with the birds, to get a seat at one of them.When i went to music lessons as a lad,historically the building bricks were in place,my teacher was using the same musical tools he was taught,tho perhaps with his own stamp on it,but basically they would be the same musical bricks we all use as our foundation,and no doubt these same building bricks will still be in use when we are not here,for future generations..my point is this..when teaching music and musical instruments,there is something tangible,something we all use as a solid guide,handed down thru knowledge and experience thru the generations...HOW can you teach someone to write songs or be a songwriter...my premise is you can only give ADVICE,which is miles removed from actual teaching....i do not think Songwriting can be TAUGHT..no more than you can teach anyone to paint a masterpiece...it comes from within..to me, songwriting is a solitary, lonely, and sometimes exasparating craft,but the finished song dispels all the frustrations and angst of getting there...i dare say Mr Blume and his methods are helpful to some,and hopefully they do find success,but please..do not let us give out the notion that you go out and buy a book on songwriting and it cures all ill's...i will digress for a minute...walk into any large bookshop.."HOW TO WIN AT ROULETTE" hmmn,this looks easy this guy has went to all the bother of writing a book,lets buy this and make my fortune...yea in your dreams...you cannot beat the %..38 into 36 will not go...but people buy them!...in my spare time i love to play texas-hold-em..i have played it long before it ever hit the big time on national tv worldwide...i guarantee at most final tables i ever played in...a smuttering of the same faces were regular participants..constantly...this was not coincidence..or luck..it was because these guys had a natural penchant for the game..nobody taught them they were just natural texas hold em predators,they learned quick about when and where to move in ,and when not to ,and how to suss out an opponent by their style of play,they watched, listened, and learned...in otherwords..natural players..nobody taught them...tho there are plenty books on texas-hold-em,to these guys and people who play the game seriously, they are just stating the obvious...i think these rules apply in all walks of life,..including songwriting..Terry..

Terry
I agree with you
I also agree with mike.

Some people are masters, Naturally.
How do you explain Dylan as a teenager. How do you explain Barbara Mandrell at 11 years old? Leanne Rimes at 8 years old?

How do I explain the guy I take guitar lessons that can play about 15 instruments in just about any Genre you can imagine. And could when he was in his twenties.
Mike Caro. I watch his videos in Awe.
Or the kid that came into my little studio who never took a lesson. 15 years old and could play rings around me.

That is natural talent. Just like a sprinter who can match the worlds best runners but never went out for track.

In my best years I could never have attained anything like Dylan's or Mandrell's mastery. No matter how hard I worked. No matter how much I practiced.

I agree Bill I have stated this time and again. Talent cannot be taught. It can be nurtured and techniques to improve can be taught. You need the raw talent first. No amount of practice or tutorials or reading books or whatever can make someone what they are not. They need raw inspiration and natural aptitude to reach that next level it can never be learned. Honed yes learned no.

Terry,

How to win at roulette? The best way to increase your chances of winning is to play a martingale system. I studied roulette as a young man before going to Las Vegas. The first thing I learned was, you may not win, but there are things you can do to increase your chances of leaving with more money in your pocket than was there when you came. I did. Some luck, one of the luckiest things was, I learned how to increase my luck.

No one can teach you to play guitar. Those same musical tools you got at your lessons were no guarantee that you'd ever learn music. People can teach, but students might not learn. It's like roulette. Or let's take golf as another example.

Say two people want to learn golf. They both go to the same instructor, buy the same clubs, read the same books and practice the same amount. One of them is me, and one of them is Tiger Woods. So, I should say, logically, that no one can teach golf? Yes. But it is illogical to say no one can learn golf from a teacher.

People learn in different ways. As a teacher, my enthusiasm is sparked by the amazing thrill that happens when I see a student have that "Aha!" moment. When the lightbulb goes off in their head and they finally "get" it. Often it takes several different approaches. With music theory, for example, I may have to present traditional theory, Nashville numbers, solfeggio, relate it to shapes formed on the guitar or piano, relate it to songs they know. The student may give up in exasperation. I don't. Not until they "get" it.

For songwriting, can it be learned? I know it can. I've had great teachers, have taken classes in creative writing, have read books and a large number of articles. I still do. I've never paid for any since the creative writing class at the university, but I'm not against teachers making a living, I'm just cheap. I haven't had big success, but I get ASCAP checks and have had songs cut by well known indie artists, gotten things on fairly major tv shows, have been invited to write with grammy award winning writers, and have five songs coming out on a new album by an artist who had nine number one Billboard country hits. I could have done none of this if I hadn't learned. If I hadn't read as much, learned from other writers. Did I have a "natural penchant" for songwriting? Yes, but teachers helped me develop it.

All the Best,
Mike

I teach lawn bowls and am a qualified Scottish coach. I helped write the coaching manual. I have seen all abilities and levels.
The same factors apply. The more natural talent the easier it is to progress. I have seen people progress up through the levels in a few weeks and others stay on level one for years. The teaching methods are the same for all but natural aptitude and ability cannot be taught.
Music theory and songwriting techniques are all very well. However if the pupil has little ear or natural feel then the end results are predictable. THEY WILL GET NOWHERE FAST.

Lawn Bowls? what is that? Like Yard Darts?
I was pretty good at Yard Darts til I stuck one in my kiddy pool. That wasn't funny.

Yeah, those lawn darts weren't the safest family game ever invented, were they? I'm so grateful I never sunk one of those into anyone's skull...but it did happen to people before they finally pulled them from the shelves. Fun game, but just slightly safer than flying chef knives.

Quite true, but they may get somewhere slow. I'm quite slow. Can't play a proper tremolo on the guitar or mandolin. That's why I play bass. It takes me a long time to grasp a new concept, a long time before the lightbulb comes on in my head. But with the understanding of a concept, I assimilate it and can think quickly when using it. So, I have empathy for people who have little feel or natural ability.

My son is like me. He learns slowly. I watched him in Karate class as a teacher gave up on him, a teacher who thought my son would get nowhere fast. Well, it was right, he'd get nowhere fast, like me he'd get there slowly. So we found a patient teacher. My son is now grown and is a formidable martial artist, he'd kick my butt any day if I weren't unscrupulous and treacherous.

So check out the schedule, get to Mr. Blume's class, get there very early to sign up (it's free, it fills up fast, but the early bird and/or the person who is tenacious WILL get in).

Songwriters. Toughen up. Learn. Disregard the naysayers. Don't listen to the utopians. No one can teach you, you must learn from teachers. Give up on the ones who give up on you.

And Big Jim, can you do me a favor? Well...you know

Lawn Bowls is a very skilful game played on a flat grass surface.
It is very popular in many countries and has a huge following.
The object is to get your bowls nearest to the jack (a small round ball) World chapinoships are televised throughout many countries and it is huge in Australia and the UK where it has a professional circuit. It has been called a cross between golf and chess as the tactics required and shots played require a great deal of thought and strategy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowls

Well that explains it. We don't have any Flat Grass surfaces where I live.

Hey Guys,

All Jim was saying was he 's not immpressed with Jason Blumes songs,
Regardless of what service Jason does, he's doing it for money.
But he is not a musician I have read every book going ,on song writing, and there are better books around.
Jason does not play an instrument well, his knowledge of chords is very limited, however he knows how to write a pop song
with collaborators. We cant teach talent, it's something you /we are born with.

Jason does a very good service for begining writers. nothing more

Dylan was great but tended to stay in one seven foot meter .

he certainly influenced The Beatles along with Buddy Chuck Elvis
and the everly's to mention a few.

"And Big Jim, can you do me a favor? Well...you know"

Mike I do not know how to or why to. So why should I. You ask me for a favour but do not say why you NEED this favour. The answer will always be. Sorry after careful consideration your request has been rejected due to insufficient data. Please re-submit your application with more details. I promise to give it careful consideration.

I think Jason is an excellent instructor and provides people with a lot of great advice.
Beginners need solid information for form a foundation, Jason is a way better source than say, Paramount. BMI offers free Jason Workshops in Nashville.

If anyone wants to become good or great at anything they should make an effort to study with the best.

Intermediate and advanced writers still need to review the basics.

I'm sure NBA pros still practice lay ups and free throws.

Plus if writers aren't having the level of success they'd like to have, they need to identify their flaws and short comings.

Not every song needs to be jam packed with imagery and story like James McMurtry's "We Can't Make It Here"
http://www.jamesmcmurtry.com/lyrics/childish_things_05.htm#3
Or judged as if it should.

Ande