JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Getting paid?

I have heard folk talk about performing in coffee shops and church performances. Are we talking about paid gigs here? Do churches still pay for folk to sing? I know about some of the old soul singers who started off singing gospel and there was a good living to be made singing in churches. Is that still the case?
Do coffee shops actually pay musicians or is it just tips? Can you make a living singing in a coffee shop. Is it also common for local singer songwriters to make a good living playing original stuff? What sort of gigs do they play?

We do not really have anything in the UK like that. Certainly churches tend not to hire musicians except perhaps for the organist's expenses. We have lots of very small cafes and fast food restaurants. I have never seen any musicians play in these places possibly because they are so small and there is no room. It would be interesting comparing our two different cultures.

Dunno Jim
Different parts of the USA are very different.
I have been able to find a handful of Coffee shops for singer/songwriters in my area. They are few and far between. And they do not pay. They are more like open mic nights.
I know a couple guys that play Churches and Nursing Homes but they do it for NADA

Hey Jim -
Thats a question that gets tossed around here a lot .
I am very selective about playing any gigs that don't pay... sometimes it is warrented .. not usually.
The coffee house pay often depends on the capacity of the venue. How much revenue could the performance potentially generate? Compensation should be based on that. As long a venue is using me to make money for their business, I should be compensated.
Heres a long story made long .. When I was getting started playing out I got a gig at a well established coffee shop. I was thrilled to get that gig. The original deal .. guarentee $30 stipend, plus tips ... I always brought in a decent crowd which benifited both of us .. business for them .. good tips for me... of course they liked having me there.
Then the venue expanded the coffee shop and added a full bar.. I remember sitting there on a Friday night .. watching the bar full of people all night .. drinking $10 glasses of wine ... hmmmmmm .. no change in pay.
When I discussed the need for adjustment in my fee, the venue said he couldn't afford to pay more for 3 hrs of music.
That was my last night ..
What an insult!
I explained .. 3 hrs!?!? I rehearse at home, pack my gear, drive to the venue, set up my gear, play for 3 hrs, break down my gear, drive home , unload my car ... and did I mention advertise!! Its not just a 3 hr gig! It was an absolute insult to me as a musician ... now THATS what I call exploitation.

After that, the venue managed to get some inexperienced musicians who would gladly play for free .. They soon learned, you get what you pay for... and free music often is music that won't fill their venue with paying customers.

There should always be some form of compensation, even if that is a stipend by the venue, tips or pass the hat.

Our church choirs are usually directed by a paid musical director .. but the choir is usually made up of volunteers from the parish ..
However, when hired as a solist for special services ie: weddings & funerals I get paid.

Its not easy to make a living as a singer songwriter .. but i'm working on it.. maybe someday!

Well I have to admit I am not a complete mercenary I do a few freebies. I perform occasionaly for charity and will do a disco or karaoke night for free for the handicapped. I like working with these folk and it is a pleasure and privilege just to see the smile on their faces when they hear music. I get a buzz better than any cash payment.

However business is businees as they say and I would not dream of taking on a normal gig for any less than my standard fee. I remember a cabaret singer once asked "How come you get paid more than me" "Cause I ASK for more" I said.

An acquaintance of mine made over $10K playing small venues last year, including many churches. I don't think he was playing at services, but using the church basically as a house concert venue on off-nights.

As for myself, I've played a lot of small coffeeshops. Many do not pay a guarantee, but some will "seed" the tip jar with up to $20, and I've had some very, very good earnings from coffeeshop gigs.

Heck, last Thursday I played a shopping mall! On the surface it sounds like the lamest gig ever, but I made a killing in CD sales and had a ton of mailing list signups.

Interesting, Scott is that a typo surely you mean $100K.
$10k is only about £5000 a good months wage. You cannot exist on £5000 a year wow that is even less than minimum wage.

Howdy Jim!

Nope. I'll bet he meant $10K. And that's a pretty darn good total for coffee houses! I can only think of about 4 or 5 of the hundreds of singer-songwriters I know that actually make a living as such.

The greater L.A. area is particularly cruel in the musicians-don't-get-paid category. In fact, many of the larger Hollywood clubs demand that the bands buy 50 or 100 tickets at $5-10 per show in advance and sell them themselves in order to play the venue.

Supply and demand... the American way...

"Uncle" Chuck

Phewwww.... Thank God I am not an American. Bands here usually get paid minimum $200 a man per night at small venues. Larger places pay a heck of a lot more. $10k or £5000 is more or less a months full time wage. The venue sells the tickets. However if we sell some to friends and fans etc we get commision around 10% of their value.

That does it, I'm moving!

God save the Queen, and all that. Farewell to Mad King George...

So Jim,

What would happen if a good band went into one of these venues and offered to play for free?

Well Big Jim that is good to hear.
Most of the folks I talk to tell me they just about have to pay the venue.
The last time I went to a "club" to see a band (it was at a golf course bar) I think the guys made $400.00 for the night. Started at 7 pm and played til 1 am.
4 guys $100.00US each. And they paid for their drinks. They also supplied all their own sound equipment.
The place was packed. I stayed till 11 pm and it was standing room only. I'd guess there were 120 to 140 patrons there at all times.
Not sure what the venue made.

Mike Hey It would not happen.

Most large venues are only booked through agents. They would make sure that does not happen. They would just pull all of their acts out. It has happened. Kills a club stone dead. All agents are in cahoots. Most bands are under contract to agents.

I do not know of any "good" bands that would play these venues for free in any case. What would happen if a good plumber suddenly offered to work for free? It won't happen.

As they say maybe in America. As I say only in America.

"Pay for play" in Los Angeles has been prevalent for years. It's been protested, but AFAIK it hasn't gotten much better. It seems "somebody" is always hungrier or has some financial backing...

The bigger, better clubs insist you "pre-buy" x number of tickets (usually at least 50), and some of them even charge you to use the house P.A. system and their house sound man.

In southern California, people seem to do a lot better in Orange County than L.A. county - for paying gigs.

The leader has to pay sidemen around $100/man for a club gig as about absolute "minimum wage" here. $125-175 is more typical.

Wedding and corporate functions can pay a lot more than that.

Wasn't there a whole program set up to tour singer/songwriters around the Barnes & Nobles bookstores (or was it Borders)? Whatever happened to that?

Perhaps because we are smaller with less competition, or maybe we are smaller with more competition or perhaps more organised or even less organised I do not know why that is not the case here. But it simply would not be allowed. All bands would just pull the plug and boycott the venue. There might be a few minor bands looking to step up. But the crowds would dwindle dew to the drop in standards. We have the musicians union and various other organisations who would not allow this kind of practice. I hope any contract involving this practice would be deemed unfair and illegal. We have rights and standards agencies who fight for consumers. All clubs are licenced and complaints about sharp practice could result in loss of licence.

There is a local coffee shop where I live that works like this.
They are a small shop that only seats around 30 people. On Saturday night they either feature a solo or duo acoustic act.
You must make a reservation for a seat on Saturday and order at least a sandwich or a piece of pie.
They add $5 cover charge to the bill for each person and that goes to the performer, so a single act makes $150 plus tips for three hours and the house is always full.
People don't mind the cover charge because they come for the show and usually all stay for the full three hours. Ben

Hey Larry!

This is why you'll find me playing in Newport Beach 90% of the time...

Borders used to do it. Now they book themselves as far as I know. Last I heard they were paying with store credit but this too may have passed...

Chuck

Jim,

Here, only the bigger clubs book through agents, they pay very well, and, yes, if one of those clubs booked a "free" act, both the club and that act would be frozen out by the agents.

But we also have smaller clubs and coffee houses. If a coffee house opens here, and has no music, I guarantee that on the first day of business they'll have at least one, probably more, musicians or musical acts begging to play there, even for free.

Here in Nashville, I've seen musicians playing, or have played myself, in restaurants, barber shops, parking lots, street corners, on boats, in the airport, at hospitals, old folks homes, churches, office building lobbies, craft fairs, marinas, on golf courses, theater lobbies, libraries, and prisons. In many of these...I guess we could call them venues...the musicians will agree to play for free. I know of one tavern that had a sign up for years that said, "Absolutely no live music." The tavern was near Music Row and the owners were tired of all the musicians begging to play there. Recently they've started having music (for you Nashvillians, it's Brown's Diner).

You'd be amazed...heck, I am amazed...at how many quite good musicians would play for free here. I've seen fellows playing in clubs for tips while off the road from working with Johnny Cash, Merle Haggard, and Peter Frampton, among others. Only in America. When I've worked those clubs, I insisted on a minimum fee from the band leaders who hired me.

I just don't "get" folks playing for free or tips. There's got to be some pay. I can see taking a risk, if you get all of the reward, as our band does when we rent the hall, sell tickets and keep the profit, but I can't see playing for free for a club owner who's going to tell you what the cover charge will be and how loud to play. Maybe if you're selling a lot of product and it's the only venue in the area? Again, I say, musicians will cut each others' throats to play a free gig.

Interesting
$5 (£ 2.50 GIVE OR TAKE) is cheap for a three hour show. $150 (£75.00) is a bit mean to be paid for a three hour show. I can understand however the logistics.
Here the places I play are mostly clubs and theatres. They have alcohol licences. They make lots of money from selling drinks very few have an entrance fee a lot are members only. Some clubs are very large, seating hundreds and have large halls with proper stages etc.

Mike thank god something we are totally in agreement with. You are human after all. LOL
I do not want to sound big headed but I gave up playing regular small gigs a good while back. I occasionally will play a small pub for a favour or if my diary is free or any other good reason comes a long but mostly we play to larger audiences of 200plus or perhaps more. I only count money not seats.
When you play to that size of crowd you have to be realistic about how much to get paid. Too many musicians sell themselves short thinking that charging less will get the work. It doesn't work. Clubs will pay for quality and will actually think twice before booking a band if they think it is too cheap they must not be much good.
We are not perfect here and the smoking ban has taken it's toll but it sounds a lot better than your situation.

PS Mike If you come across Frampton (is he still alive) "Show him the way" over here Ill get him all the work he wants. And it pays.

Me & 9.9 million of my closest friends are moving to Edinburgh... we'll be there Friday. Mind if we stay at your place until we get settled??

Chuck Ok but you bring the beers.

When I do a feature at the local coffee shop, I get all the bills in the tip jar. If I sing at the open mic, it's gratis. Otherwise I get paid between $50 and $300 depending on the gig, at markets, cafe's, & stuff.

Jim: nope, that wasn't a typo. He made over $10K as part of a nationwide tour. He was on the road for four months or so.

Mind you, he does other things, like teach. Playing live isn't his day job. I personally only know one musician who makes her living from touring, and she plays house concerts almost exclusively.

Scott wow things sure are tight and the venue owners look like the most tight assed folk I could ever meet.
I do not want to sound too left wing but it is about time you all got organised and stopped getting exploited and ripped off.
Fair days pay for fair days work and all that. "Land of the free" no point if you are skint (Broke). No wonder musicians do not hang around in bars you cannot afford it. LOL

I sing at a church and get $75 per service. I also do Jazz gigs at restaurants and make $100 a night + tips.

I've worked for years for free (and the experience) so it's nice to get paid!

Not gonna happen here. As long as people here believe that you can get "discovered" playing a club, or that the exposure, experience and/or legitimacy that come with playing is more valuable to them than money, people will play for free. There are simply too many performers, all with different agendas.

It makes sense to me, in a market that is oversaturated with musicians. It's classic supply vs. demand. Over here in the US, venues have the upper hand.

Besides, in my experience, the artists that chronically play for free usually have little to offer the venues, anyway. They don't draw a drinking crowd, they're novice performers, etc. You simply can't go in and demand a $300 guarantee just for showing up and playing.

I've heard it's very different in the UK as far as crowds. A friend of mine did a tour over there with his band and was amazed that *every* venue they played was packed, with very little promotion; in the US you have to bust your butt to get even 20 people to come out to a show. All ancedotal evidence I've seen points to a much better live music scene in the UK in general.

Scott I agree, Anecdotal evidence from the USA so far makes it look that way. However there are far fewer places to play now than there used to be those anti smokers saw to that. Overall one thing for sure we seem to get paid more.

Jim, I can only speak for myself and this part of the country.
I've never done a paying church gig, so I wouldn't know.
Coffee houses don't pay crap {$50 max}
I mix covers and originals, and emphasize which ever one the crowd seems more receptive to on a given night. {I always hope for the latter, but usually the former.}
My bar gigs usually pay about $150-$200+tips and CD sales.
I charge more for private parties, and road trips, but I'll never turn down a freebie benefit for a good cause.
I made $53,000 last year, which ain't filthy rich, but not too shabby either.

Hey Bob change the dollar sign to a pound sign and we are about the same. Seems crazy that I should make double for doing more or less the same as you. However I hear thing are much cheaper in the USA like clothes, houses, fuel, groceries etc etc. So we probably even out. One thing it took a while to get my head around listening to you folk is the cost of a demo. Here in the UK most studios charge around £35 per hour $70 or so that includes an engineer. A good musician laying down a part costs about the same. Start adding that up. I might be cheaper flighing out for a couple of days and doing a few demos. LOL

Big Jim, I'm a-comin' to visit soon as my tip jar fills up. I'll buy *your* beer, but not them 9.9 million other guys'.

I think the key to y'all's payableness over the pond is the agents. If all the booking is done through the agents, the agents will make sure the musicians get paid so *they* can get paid. Every gig I've ever had through an agent has paid well.

And the U.S., I'd agree, is the pits for paying musicians. Working bands are paid today what they were getting 30 years ago. Compare the price of *anything* to what it was 30 years ago, and it's clear why most of us now have day jobs. It's no longer possible to support a family on what a musician makes. (There are some notable exceptions--some of them members of JPF. But I think they're a minority.)

Here in southern Oregon, the songwriters' association has started a practice that may turn into a tradition. Club charges a gate fee, that is split between the musician/band and the venue. Venue sells food and drinks; musician/band sells CDs and merchandise. Depending on the size of the venue, it may work out well for both sides. A number of members of the songwriters' association have been charging the same way when they do solo gigs, and the venues are paying it. It is not a great deal, but it is substantially better than being paid nothing--which is what was happening before.

The songwriters' association is growing in membership; we don't completely control the market (yet), but are working on it.

Joe

By the way Jim, Peter Frampton lives across town from me here in Cincinnati. {He married a Cincinnati girl and lives in the upper-crust eastside} He's actually pretty active in our community.
I can't say I know him, and doubt if I'll bump into him on the streets, but next time theres a big music event here, I could run into him.

Big Jim,

I lived in germany for just under 12 years...played music almost all of that time. In the 1970's and 1980's, I averaged between $55K and $60K per year. In those days, that was very good money! Ain't too shabby today, either! Other than about hald a dozen benefit shows we did for free, every single job was through my German booking Agent (Harry Kreiner Agency out of Manheim). He took 10% off the top and we got the rest...paid on the last Friday ov every month. The numbers I quoted above were after the agent's fee was deducted. So, Europe is a far better place for musicians.

The highest paying gig we had was at the Frankfurt Mess Halle for which our 5-piece band was paid 6,000 Deutch Marks, about $2,800.oo at the exchange rate at that time, for a 2 hour spot for about 3,00 patrons. We played country and southern rock music.

Where I live, St. Louis, Missouri, there are very few clubs that have live music, except for quite a few blues clubs and several rock venues. that's my report. I'll be back with more on some station at some time with some sort of info. Stay tuned!

Al

My wife does financial management for a fairly well-known jazz/fusion group. When they tour in the U.S., they rarely break even, so they tour Japan once or twice a year and make a killing in 4-6 weeks.

So maybe it's not just a UK or even an EU thing, it may be that the U.S. is just a very tough place to make a living as a working musician since there are SO many musicians here willing to play for cheap or free simply for the "exposure".

Few live music venues except for quite a few Blues and Rock music venues. What other kind of music would you want to hear live? LOL

Make no mistake we have lots of small bars where wannabes and young inexperienced bands play for peanuts. Everywhere has to have a "nursery" or breeding ground.
I am surprised that this breeding ground is so extensive in the States that it has caused these problems. Does this mean that the overall standard of live music has dropped? After all folk will only play free for so long before giving up. It figures that there would come a time when quality would be in demand and folk have to open their wallet if they want quality. Eg If I own a venue and paid good rates then I could get the best bands. If only the best bands perform in my venue then the punters do not want to hear a mediocre band down the road. My venue would be packed and the other venues empty. It is only a matter of time before others follow suit and a chain reaction results.

Catholic parishes, if they can't get volunteers, pay musicians and singers and choir directors. The parishes have to provide music for Sunday Mass. It is a mandate from the Vatican. The pay varies. Wealthy parishes pay a lot more of course, but even the poorest of parishes usually pay the cantor and accompanist. I am not sure what they pay right now at the church I work at but 10 years ago, the pay was $40 for accompanists and singers and $75 for choir directors for each Mass. They are paid $25 for rehearsals. Every year, a cost of living increase is added on to the wages of those who have worked there for over a year. I direct two choirs and get paid. At the church I work at, I am allowed to use some of my own compositions, which is pretty cool because I can field test the congregational music I write.