JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum 2008 American Idol (original official)

Hi Brian Terry beat me to the punch. He explained in his article about this show's background and failings. I myself have the same "inside info" A young girl I know went through the same rigmarol as his pal Eddie. This girl is a great singer with charisma and stage presence. She can sing any style and genre. She failed the first pre audition as they had over-reached the quota. The girl sitting next to her passed and went on to meet Cowell and Co. This girl was completely tone deaf had a twitch and spoke with a lisp. She stuttered,froze and then burst into hysterical laughter followed by tears. This performance featured in the early "lets all laugh at the unfortunates" program. The girl I know was outraged... not because she did not get through...but because of the way they took the p..s out of that poor girl to make good TV.
That is the main reason I am so angry at this show and the many others of the same ilk. We should all be ashamed for condoning this exploitation. I have strong feelings about folk who laugh at the less fortunate. So this entertainment show makes it ok to ridicule somebody with Down Syndrome or somebody blind or in a wheelchair, or someone with mental health issues. I do not think so.
Getting back to talent. I have been in this business for a very long time and know talent when I see it. I also know duffers.
Over the years we have been subjected to both kinds at local, region, national, and international level. Some of the top earners as you say suck so much live they get booed off stage.
I do not have to prove who is better than A I finalist we all know they are out there in large undiscovered numbers. But I will give you two glaring examples of British show winners who really suck. Sadly both are Scottish.... Leon Jackson and Michelle McManus. Leon is a wannabe swing singer who got to number one after winning the show a couple of months ago. He failed to produce even one credible performance all the way through the show. No stage presence charisma or personality with at best average pub singer's voice. Even his doctored hit sucks.
Michelle McManus got the sympathy vote because they played on her obesity. She has little charisma and can barely hold a tune.
A year after winning the show she was forgotten. Check them out.
If any one can honestly say they have charisma, stage presence, a great singing voice or any real talent then they should go and get their eyes and ears checked. If you agree with me then perhaps you should have a rethink about supporting this kind of nonesense.
This business is run by folk like Simon Cowell. Most of them have no love of music, no musical talent, no morals, no loyalty, are dishonest scam merchants, are liars, cheats who will do anything for a fast buck. They tend to have all the money and connections. Most would not know talent if it bit them on the ass. Artistes are made or rejected on a nod. They control what the public sees and buys and what song charts and what does not. They rarely take a gamble on trying a new formula or style and have a very fast turn around of their stars. Six months is about average for a career with them. Nearly all their hits are karaoke covers.
The reason these leaches survive is that folk who try to stand up to them are just tossed out. My way or no way rules.
I have stated it before and will state it again we have been so bombarded with mediocre singers singing mediocre songs that we have accepted it as the norm. The bar has been set and cannot be raised.
Brian I am especially surprised that you have adopted this mindset that we are the ones with the delusinal problems and the current system provides us with "great singers" It is you who should be giving us examples cause I have not seen any "great singers" on these shows. Certainly I have not seen anyone, in my opinion who merits a TV performance and a string of hit records.
Perhaps your bar is set a little lower than mine.
It is no secret the majors are having problems...perhaps because some of us are trying to break the mould of mediocrity.
The public deserve better. Sadly too many cannot smell the coffee.

There are people that watch Jerry Springer and I don't get that either.
Crap is crap!

As a city manager, I am accustomed to being in charge of sewer systems. You might say I see enough c**p at work, I don't need to watch it on TV.

Joe

So are you guys claiming that the artist you hang with sing better than these kids? Or do you hang out with crap?

Brian

Brian IRRELEVANT. It is unimportant who we hang out with or how good or bad OUR friends are at singing they are not the ones on A I. who you claim are great singers. What is important is that we can recognise crap when we see it on TV. Apparantly some folk cannot.
You may THINK these kids are great but we KNOW different.
There is a benchmark that TV acts are judged by and even A I finalists score well below it. I could find folk straight off the streets who are better. As for any of my musical friends they would not consider going on such a program or being associated with it in any way. They have a reputation to keep.
Are my friends and myself better?...even on a bad day but that is also irrelevant.

I'm pretty darn sure Brian is already familiar with this. I know of one example he could cite.

Just a quick heads up on Paul Marturano "a stalker love song for Paula Abdul" The multiple versions of this on YouTube have several hundred thousand views in the past 24 hours.

Brian, as a matter of fact, most of them are. And they can play real instruments, too. (I have not noticed that the Idolators can.)

Joe

pardon my French, but for the most part, A.I. sucks. from what I've noticed, very little originality, personality, tons of over-singing, and what not. why would anyone, 'specially the audition eps., make fools of themselves? so some of these artists have had No. #1 records, albums, and blah, blah, and blah. but some of those same artists have gotten dropped recently; so much for long term artist commitment. and the fact that they have to sign onerous agreements that, unless they get a good entertainment lawyer like Clay Aiken and Kelly Clarkson have, they have to honor it. sounds like indentured servitude. I don't know......


markus

My biggest problem with the show...is the songs they pick for the finalists to sing as their first "single." They are always terrible! The picked songs usually yield the "worst performances" for each of the finalists all season.

Even after the songwriting contest they ran last for last season. Does Clive Davis really pick those tunes for them? The finale with Taylor Hicks and Kathryn McPhee was a huge letdown; last season's wasn't much better.

But anyhow, I enjoy watching the show and comparing my impressions against those of the judges!

my early pick: Angela Martin

Also looking good:
Kickboxer girl (name?)

Sleepers for top-10:
The male country picks - colton swan and farmer Drew (is that the one??)

I don't watch the show usually - not because I dislike it but because I don't watch much TV. But I watched most of it last night.

I'm really rooting for this gal

Don't know how far she'll get but she wins the sweetness award. She actually had a tee shirt on in the filmed bit that said, "When life hands you a lemon, make lemonade"

This from someone who lost an eye in that traffic accident....

I liked how she was shy and nervous and then sucked it up and belted out a Janice Joplin tune

The judges comments suggested to me that she might not get much further. But she's going to Hollywood and I'll bet it's the thrill of her life.

Scott

Prediction: both Kady Malloy and the kick-boxer girl from Oregon will make the top 10.

Will AI miss some really quality artists? Yep
Will the artists who passed the auditions be liked by everyone? Nope
Will the big winner be liked by everyone? Nope
Is the polling really fair since everyone can vote 50 times for their favorite of the night? Nope
Is it pretty much a "personality" popularity contest? Yep. (remember Sanjaya?)

However, one thing that AI does is provide a way (albeit faulted) for an unknown artist to quickly get into the public eye and get a record deal. Since the labels stopped putting money into artist development some 20+ years ago, I don't know of a better way for a new artist to get that opportunity.

Ed McMahan had "Star Search" for a while, but it's been a while since that show was out as well.

Our buddy Paul may turn out to be genius. According to a few people here {including Brian} he's a talented singer/songwriter/pianist. He's probably been busting his hump for years on the "high road"to no avail, so he decided to take a grandstand, and judging from all the views he's gotten on Youtube {not to mention that we're discussing him here, and apparently he's the talk of America today}it may have payed off.

You might be right Bob
Sometimes all it takes is a little recognition, for whatever reason, to launch a career.

Hmmmmmm. Why didn't we think of that?

Why don't they just put on an artist showcase program where 12 non signed up and coming acts per show get to perform a song. No voting no gimmicks, and proper talent for once. I would watch that.

Think you got it right Bob...

"Crazy like a fox" as the saying goes.I wouldn't be surprised if that exposure opened some doors for him. Stay tuned...

I like the musical response Chris Young had at our Nashville Showcase this year to the statement "When life gives you lemons..." His musical response was "just add tequila and salt." = )

Brian

Jim,

You're continually launching bogus personal attacks on me over this show. I haven't needed to resort to personal attacks in discussing a TV show. You're welcome to have your opinion of the show. But when you make it personal, you change the entire dynamic. Is that what you really want?

Brian

Music is like food.
One persons taste is another persons poison.
If we all had the exact same hearing and taste maybe it would be different(boring)but we don't.
The reason I have a remote is so I can change the channel if someting comes on that I don't care for.
I don't like AI myself but I am not going to hate some one that does.
We are all in this together!
Where is our morality going?

Brian,

I think we have a misunderstanding here. I disagree with you about any personal bogus attacks from me. My attack, if that is what you call it, was about the SICK exploitation and third rate acts who appear on the show, a view also held by a number of other folk here. You responded to this by what I considered a personal attack on us and our judgements. I only replied in defense. You are just as entitled to your opinions as the rest of us.
With all due humble respect if you check the posts you will see that it was YOU who actually started the personal STUFF. I just replied ONCE in a frank manner because, like you, I am honest, FRANK and speak my mind. I am sorry you overreacted and take this personally and think I am on some kind of a mission to discredit you in some way. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is no malice intended on my part I am just supporting my views and responding to what I took as an unprovoked personal bogus attack from you. I honestly think you are over reacting to what was a legit viewpoint expressed in answer to your posts.
I respect what you have, and are still doing, with JPF and the music business in general. I know you, like me, mean well and will help and support our community. I do not hold grudges and believe that you don't either.
So.... we don't see eye to eye on AI.... big deal. There must be hundreds of other things we disagree on.
Does not make us enemies, just different.

I do not want to kiss and make up LOL
but if I ever meet you I will shake your hand.

"Are my friends and myself better?...even on a bad day but that is also irrelevant." -Jim Merrilees

You actually believe that? And you're attacking my judgement for having a different opinion? Hmm... Carrie Underwood? Kelly Clarkson? Jennifer Hudson? Not as good at singing as you and your friends even on a bad day?

That's why I'm annoyed at the attack on my judgement. I hardly think I'm the delusional one.

I'm happy to shake hands. I just think it's better to argue points with facts, not make direct personal attacks on people's judgement when they're right. If you disagree, show me the artists that are better to prove your point. I listened to the first song on your web page. I disagree strongly with your quote above. I'll leave it to others to determine who's judgement is wrong on this one.

Brian

Brian that was a direct personal attack. I kinda gave you the benefit of the doubt on the last ones when you were way wrong and out of line. I even in my last post gave you the chance to end the matter gracefully. I will not take this one lying down. First of all I said that mine or my friends abilities was irrelevant to the argument and it still is.
You know nothing about the first track on my Soundclick or how and why it was done or even if it is me singing I will not even bother to explain. You think you have "one over on me" well you have not. Your attitude is childish on this matter and your ego is far too big. I certainly do not have to justify my talent to you. You started with the personal stuff FACT and no amount of bullying or name calling from you will alter that.
If you think I am afraid to disagree with or stand up to you or that you have the divine right to always be right because you are the boss of these boards well you are wrong. I am not always right but at least have the decency to admit when I am wrong and not go witch hunting like you because someone actually has the audacity to disasgree with your expert views on a crappy TV program. I am still offering to forget this incident and shake hands once you climb down from the pedestal you place yourself upon.

Jim: I have gone to your site, too -- and I really like your version of "Long Time Love" (lol - I guess I would!).

I probably don't want to get involved here, but Jim, overall, I think you are dismissing, incorrectly, the overall talent that some of the AI contestants have. Maybe on one song, or one night they might not be as good as Whitney Houston, but they have to sing a lot of variety. And for the most part, they pull it off.

When you say that you could grab anyone off the street, stick them on a stage with live musicians, in front of millions of TV viewers, and then have them sing better than the AI contests -- well, that statement just doesn't have any credibility.

Enough about that TV show! Actually, I did listen to Long Time Love last night (out of the blue) and I was impressed. I had to download it again, so I would have it for all time. Thanks for doing that.

Kevin

Jim,

You make grand sweeping claims that all these AI vocalists are talentless crap and then make the absurd claim that you and your friends are better than ALL of them on a bad day. I took your first track (and listened to the others as well) as examples of how you and your friends sound (whether it's a good day or bad day is unknown, but you said even on a "bad" day). If those tracks are NOT you OR your friends, then I stand corrected. But if they are, they are not even in the ballpark as good as Carrie Underwood or Kelly Clarkson or many of the other Idol contestants featured over the years. And it's the delusion of many indie artists that they are better than those types of artists that gets them into trouble and discredits the entire artist community outside the major label system. It's that same delusion that I hear from many indie artists who blame everyone else but their own talent and efforts for why they can't succeed in the music industry.

I get harrassed by artists who are easily as bad as the very worst that are ever shown on American Idol who claim they are better than any major label artist and the industry is conspiring to keep them down. Until artists get a reality check on their talent level, they have no chance of either improving their craft and talent to the level needed for success, or at least assessing the reality of what they might be able to achieve with the talent they do have. For you to claim you're better, even on a bad day, than some of the best young vocalists in the world is delusional. For you to criticize my judgement for saying the obvious and then demonstrating how flawed your judgement is by making such an outrageous claim is insulting to say the least.

I am simply telling the truth. For you to claim that makes me an egomaniac is yet another insult and attack that's unwarranted You say you want to forget the incident and then end it with another personal attack.

So again, are you serious in your claim that you and your friends are better singers than Carrie Underwood and Kelly Clarkson and Jennifer Hudson even on a bad day? If you are serious in that claim, you need to produce the recordings that prove your point. Let's hear your bad day recordings that are still better than Carrie's vocals on Jesus Take The Wheel. Let's hear your friends bad day vocal recordings that are better than Kelly Clarkson's hit songs? Let's hear the recordings of you and your friends on a bad day that are better than Jennifer Hudson's Oscar winning performances in Dreamgirls? Otherwise, acknowledge that your statements are false or were said in jest. Anything less indicates serious delusion.

The fact is that these kids are talented singers. Some are world class talents. They are NOT crap. And if they WERE.. then anyone less talented would have to be included as "crap" and that notion is, itself.. CRAP.

Now you can back off, or not back off. But anyone with any clue about vocal talent knows which viewpoint is correct here. It hardly takes an expert to see that.

Brian

I have watched AI on occasion, and although I don't like the show, I'd be rapt to have any of the finalists in my studio cutting a track. The talent is there at a premium level, and that is quite clearly evident. Are there better singers out there ? Sure, but it's about the entertainment dollar, and at this level it's precisely about that. Not to recognise the precision in ability is foolish IMHO.

cheers, niteshift

I would say by demographics alone the American version is far better than the British version..simply because of population..American TV and Cowell can probably churn out singers from over the pond until the next big bang..and still keep the 29 year old ceiling (correct me if iam wrong)..the problem this side of the pond is...Cowell would take orgasms infinite if he discovered a Kelly Clarkson or a Carrie Underwood in the UK..it aint never going to happen...the nearest he will ever get to that level is the winner from the series before last, Leona Lewis.and he waited a year before releasing her 1st album,guess where that was produced..the USA..he touted her around every music mogul over the pond..saying she was as good as or better than Mariah or Whitney...she is good no doubt about that...you see Cowell has a lot to prove over here. The UK spawned this format,but it has exploded in the USA...but it is not like for like..it is chalk and cheese...over here,the winners in the last 5 or 6 years(except Leona Lewis)have had a shorter shelf life than a lump of Gorgonnzolla.....make no mistake Cowell needed to find a "class" act which would prove sustainable,and he has went on record to say as much...Leona Lewis did offer that respite...because the British public were getting bored...for instance the 3 finalists in the last series..1 from England..1 from Wales.and the other from Scotland.
A Battle of Britain vocally.....The Welsh boy should have won hands down..if it had been a boxing fight..the referee would have stopped the contest...BUT..the Scots are very patriotic..nothing wrong with that...but Mr Cowell knows that too..and patriotism means phone calls which mean plenty cash...so what started off as a talent show ended up a 3 way fight for votes from each nation...remember we are not called The United Kingdom for nothing...the UK.. 4 very different nations..English, Scottish, Welsh, &Irish...it is these cynical ploys that Cowell tries to disguise,which are geared to make more people vote...believe me, Cowell is pulling all the strokes he can, to make the British version credible..,but you cannot fool all the people all the time.....the format is jaded..and predictable...Terry...

That's interesting Terry. We have some State to State competitiveness over here.. but in many cases the states are way different in size.. with California, Texas, New York and Florida dominating all the others in population. Plus, even if California has something going, there are 49 other states to offset them. Are those factions in the UK similar in population? I'd think London would skew the numbers a lot. In the US, we sort of see the UK as England and Scotland and Norther Ireland.. we never really think of Wales as a component and I couldn't even tell you what part of the island is Wales (I am guessing it's the western part? with the north being Scotland and Northern Ireland the north part of that island?) And of course most folks in the US sort of lump Ireland in with the UK as one entity. Then again few Americans can identify all 50 states on the map without the names there to read. And almost not kids can pick out major countries and cities around the rest of the world.

Thanks for the perspective.. very interesting.

Brian

Brian

I've always watched it and always will
A lot better than Nashville Star, I also watch canadian idol and australian idol, just sick of all the same old songs they sing every year, barely any new stuff eh

Brian I am going to back off. This is my final say on the matter. You are entitled to your opinion about who you think is crap and who is not. I would also like the same entitlement. Judgement of ability is always a matter of opinion. You have your and I have mine. You mention about half a dozen acts who in your opinion are great but in my opinion are OK but nothing special. You seem to completely forget all the rest from all the other shows who fall way below these standards and by anybody's opinion or standards suck. I was generalising about the very poor standards considering it is such a huge TV show both in the UK and USA and as always there are usually a few exceptions to the rule. You certainly jumped on the exceptions but can you prove the general rule wrong. I doubt it. You did not make any comment about the two UK examples of show winners I quoted as being crap. I take it they dont count. You only cite a few who admittedly are above the rest but still fall short of as you put it top 1%.

I am sorry you do not rate me as a singer but hey that is just your opinion and I do not really care much cause I am not asking for a premium rate telephone vote from you and do not really rate you as a judge of ability anyway based on your list of great singers. Sorry just another opinion. You do not pay my wages or get me bookings. You obviously have a very different taste in music and possibly an axe to grind. Also perhaps the one mans meat thing might apply.
I do all right, thanks very much, for someone dillusional who is not even in the ballpark.
I do not have to prove anything to you, just my agents and the folk who book me and have done for more years that I care to mention. I stated that "on a bad day" thing cause quite frankly even my agents would not book some of the winning acts. He refused to touch Michelle Mcmanus with a barge pole. He refused to book Leon Jackson at New Year because of the obscene money he wanted. "I would not pay him what I pay you. He's crap." He said. Well he actually used much worse language than that but I used poetic licence to miss out the really bad words. If you want proof I can show you the press clipping "Le-off" was the headline. "Leon Jackson to miss out on Edinburgh New Year's Bash"......etc etc.

Well Brian No hard feelings either way just a clash of personalities and a minor disagreement of opinions. I will leave it at that. JIM

Referee here!

OK,,,both go in your corner. Get cold water splashed in your faces.

Jim,
I am curious as to "how much" you "really listened" to the products of the finalists from year to year. I mean, song after song on each album, or on the show itself. I mean, listen as if you're one of their friends, with no "self" involved, which can distort anything, in any line of work, but with honestl, as well as respect to the fact they got up on those stages, with all that heat on them.

Respectfully, by the things said about their abilities, I can only think: Without honest and "thorough" evaluations of others, (opinions considered even), we can't honestly judge ourselves.

John

As good as I think I am sometimes, I am just as bad on other times. It all really lies somewhere in the middle.

John

In my jackass of an opinion the people who say american idolists have no talent are ones who are jaded and have tried and tried to make music as a career but have failed and then they see these kids audition and watch their dreams come true that quickly

John, airun,

I wonder how anyone, who is a musician of any standing, can support such exploitation and mediocrity. It is a sad reflection on our business. In my opinion some of the A I acts are OK but nothing special in comparison to what is out there in any community. The bulk fall way way short of anything other that Karaoke singers you get in any bar on any Saturday night. If this is multinational prime time TV at it's best FORGET IT. I will go to the clubs I frequent and watch real talent or go to a Karaoke bar to see similar performances to most A idolists live
Perhaps some folk may be jaded and have tried and failed to make music as a career. Yeah that can happen. On the other hand perhaps some folk just see average run of the mill kids with no special talent appearing on TV and ask.... why?.
Why should con men like Simon Cowell get away with it.
Perhaps the folk who think that these people are idols are too easily pleased. Im my humble jackass of an opinion we have been so used to seeing third rate performances from pop stars over the years that we have lowered our expectations to the point of endorsing crap like A I as something worth watching and protecting.
My final point.... I have seen many young very talented folk serve apprenticeships and come through the ranks of the tough gigs and hard knock world I survive in. My blood boils when I see a bimbo walk off the street who can barely hold a tune being told by Simon Cowell that she is wonderful and can make millions. How does that make some of these kids with real talent feel?

Must have been how real musicians felt about the rock and roll invasion of the '50s and '60s. Kids were barely able to play their instruments, yet were making millions with pop hits. Meanwhile, real musicians were struggling to work.

Personally, I can't stand reality tv...
But, that's just me.

BIG JIM, (not you Mr. Jimmy):

My question wasn't answered, which leads to the obvious. There wasn't a real honest ear or mind effort for close attention paid to the singers of past nor their CD's. Like info or in talking with people, we can't hear, understand, or learn when we're talking, or thinking while the act, (talk or whatever), is going on. Even a starting attitude from the first second on will not have us actually hear what is being sung, or said. That takes a letting go effort of a pre conceived thought and automatic and emotional response. (well,,,,for some of the times anyway). Nothing is all the time being one way or the other, of course. But, you know what I mean. Add to the performance the Pro stage, engineers, stage production staff, producers, camera's, lights, and knowing millions are judging you, as well as the three judges right in front on you. Compare that to whatever pressure and status a singer gets from a dark BAR full of drinkers. You can't. They are opposites.

The issue of how the show takes advantage of somewhat mentally challenged people is sick, yes. They let them get through, just to have them laughed at by the three TV judges. Not good on any level. There's two issues here.

1. Singing abilities with performance talent that is judged by pros, then presented to the public for the voting, ("fan base" the reason, of course).

2. The ones that shouldn't get through the outside preliminary judges just to get laughed at, or to tell a touching story, only to have them "KNOWINGLY" be turned down by the TV judges. That's just wrong.

John

I kinda like it John Daubert, we live in a cruel world I guess
But when people actually think they can sing they do have it coming
Doesnt mean they should stop singing, just means they shouldnt think they are the next american idol

Now onto captain of the bar singers here, Jim you can't honestly think that can you? If I want to hear mediocrity I will go to a bar
Or I'll go to your soundclick page

When I turn on American Idol I hear some great talent and some not so great, american idol, myspace, youtube, other tv shows are all here to discover new talent for the future to come

If you don't enjoy that, if you think everyone has to go through everything that you went through (to not even make it past a bar)
Well then thats your complex, a real twisted and bitter way of thinking, in my opinion simon cowell is pretty damn smart

Sorry John did not understand first paragraph despite reading it several times. I must be pretty stupid.
Glad you agree on the exploitation part which in itself is enough reason to stop this crap being put on TV.
I think you are asking about how I judge people who are under pressure of lights and judges etc. Well if you cannot stand the heat get out of the kitchen. Any pro should be able to handle pressure goes with the territory. I judge folk on a number of things I would expect a top pro to have. Let me make it clear I was generalising about the standards. There are exceptions to every generalisation. I was saying that in general most singers on the show including finalists are poor in almost every dept. On the performances I have seen they fall far short of the mark I would expect for the fame and fortune they are getting. Even the top ones and show winners are in my humble opinion way below the benchmark I would set for a great top liner. Mediocrity has become the norm and the public have become apathetic to standards. There are good quality acts around certainly in the UK and Scotland in particular and I do not think the USA is any different. So why are we being subject to these very inexperienced second raters when there are better acts available? Probably because the shows are fixed and Simon says.

1. How many minutes, hours or days have you put in to "really listening" to the finalist you say are substandard?

2. Kelly, Clay, Jennifer, Carrie, Eliot, for example. Name of CD's? What tracks are crap "vocal performance" wise? What lines stuck out as being sub-par from the rest of the songs?

My point was,,,,,without really knowing the singer's work, day in and day out, track after track, album after album, or even show after show, how they and others raised their game, (with the pressure of the lights and camera that I mentioned as something they DID handle like pros), then one can not really judge as quickly saying crap, or sub par.

To give a friendly intended way of how you may be coming off, it does seem unprofessional to bash anyone, (especially blanket statements without facts of opinions to back it up). As in pitch problems on certain keys, or non control over vibrato, or just an awkward feel to some songs, or whatever specifics could have been laid out to help prove your case. Without any of that, and just to say they are this or that, and you or this or that, just doesn't fly with any air under it,,,,,Know what I mean?

Many factors goes into what makes a good singer and entertainer.
Really listen,,,I mean open minded listen to some of those names up there, and hear their phrasing. Their commitment to the lyric. Their feel for the melody and tempo. Then their skills as a singer. They, among others, have many of the i's dotted!

The ones that you claim are better yet, (in general identities of off the street singers, and karaoke singers? Wow! Then they might want to have Clive Davis hear them NOW! If that can't,,,,then that would say a lot about many things to do with them, sorry to say. (as I really don't take pleasure in saying that).

"THEY" might not be as polished as thought,,or committed to being a professional. That is a possibility you and all should at least "honestly" consider. I have. And I have expert trained ears for pitch, 32 years concert level piano tuning by ear for many pro acts, including some of the top singers for their shows, (about ten years ago and before). I could name drop the heck out of this post, but just know I have stood next to great singers.

I KNOW singers of all levels, including myself. I am not in the top 20% of "singers". I may do alright on good nights for my style of music, (Brit Pop Rock), but nothing to take home an award for, or to always be in first place or so. I used to think I was,,,(hope mainly,,,,the "want to"). But real is real. Recordings don't lie. They enhance either good or not so good, IF you are really listening to the pros,,,,then to ourselves.

I listen to John and Paul sing a lot, (among others), and then do my songs in similar fashion,,,,,BUT no where near their skills of singing and range. Some are born to sing. I was born to do music in many ways. Once you hear and see your true self as compared to "meant-to-be-pros", it becomes obvious as to who can really do what, especially ourselves.

Those AI people are NOT in the middle, by my ears, and knowledge of vocals. The middle area is where most of us are, if being real.

Thanks for listening! That was a lot, I know. I hope most was valid.
John

I am sorry John but I do not have hours to spare to listen to crap when there is so much good music to listen to. I have a library of stuff that I have not had time to listen to. The A I stuff is way way way down the list.
These folk are plastic and manufactured. They are told exactly what to wear, what to sing, how to stand and when to go to the toilet. Sorry not my idea of talent. Perhaps we musicians are harder to please than the general public who have had so much of this stuff thrown at them they actually begin to like it. I have seen it done it heard got the video and the tee shirt. I listen to people who I think have talent. If I say they are crap then as far as I am concerned they are and that is good enough for me. Perhaps I am just getting old and cynical. This program is not art but merchandising of the worst kind. You mention half a dozen or so "artists" well perhaps you are right and they are great singers. Even so half a dozen from how many series? and finalists and auditions. Give me a break. They are kids on a glorified open mic night singing Karaoke. Nothing special.

HEY AIRUN....THIS IS FOR YOU PAL!...i see you mention mediocrity.
well,i just cant wait to hear the "lovechild" of a song you and Pianosam are going to churn out...i see you volunteered to coloborate...c'mon stick it up.....(apologies to Pianosam)...

Hey airun You know nothing about me and my career. You are the last person to talk about mediocrity as I have also heard Pianosams offerings. I wish you luck in your venture "In search of the lost cause."
Yes I sing in large bars and clubs and hotels and Theatres and recording studios and anywhere else that pays the kind of money I ask for and am always offered. It is good enough to get by on full time without having to do a "proper" job.
What do you do that makes you so good, or such an expert able to judge, insult or criticise me and my music? I have not seen you post anything are you just a blowhard?
Like Terry I look forward to hear you sing one of pianosams "original" one fingured creations. If you want to be taken seriously then put up or shut up. I apologise to Pianosam for dragging him into this.

I wish that this forum would not deteriorate into a bash session. The reason I liked this website in the first place was the positive and more professional attitude about the ways people shared their music, their comments, and their thoughts and ideas, than any other songwriting website I have found. I frankly got sick of listening to bombastic pronouncements of who was great or who sucked, and who the next "superstar" was on the horizon.

We all have our tastes in music, and musical programs and I am not a fan of AI, but I really do not want to enter this lose-lose debate. Don't you see that the forum breaks down into name-calling and reactionary vitriole every time this type of fan adoration/rejection subject comes up?

I am not saying to anyone what they should do, but realize that it looks to me like people are losing friendships here over a silly argument that no one can win, and makes everyone look petty.

If you want to blast me for my two cents here, then load up and let me have it, but I would love to see something positive and end the negativity.

I don't think there is a problem with debating the merits of the TV show or Simon Cowell and his tactics.
I even think it is good to argue over who are the best singers. But....
I am with Jack on the name calling or telling the folks here they suck or they are terrible singers. That is taking it to a whole new level.

Airun has a habit of doing that. I have seen it on other threads that is why I no longer comment on any of his threads. Personal attacks are not needed here. And that is not an attack on Airun. It is just how it is.

Constructive criticism is fine but just telling someone they suck is another thing. It is hurtful and mean spirited.

It is human nature to argue politics, religion, Etc. but when it degenerates into personal attacks it should be frowned upon.

It's a fine line to walk I suppose. It is easy to get a little riled and say the wrong thing but that is what the edit and delete button is for. And I have had to use them a lot, LOL.

I agree Jack and Bill. I started this thing off I suppose by a personal attack on Simon Cowell. I can justify this and will stick by my reasons which I think are a matter of principal. He is an entrepeneur and exploiter of the worst kind and will stop at nothing to make a fast dishonest buck. I deplore anyone who exploits others, but to exploit folk who are, lets just say, vulnerable is disgraceful and should not be allowed.
I also stated that in my opinion the standard of talent in general on this show was crap, a view held by many.
That was it. Who's crap how dare you etc etc. I was only stating my personal opinion.
I take exception to people like airun making these kind of personal attacks. He has no right or reason. However it does not bother me because I am thick skinned, you have to be in this profession. I can see airun for what he is and know that very few people put any credance on his childish outbursts. I apologise to Brian and John if they feel insulted in any way. I was just expressing my feelings and opinions about the standards on this show which I still believe in general are very poor.

Hey I am not the only person resorting towards attacks here
Jim basically said only him and his friends deserve to have success
Why? I don't have one iota of a clue, I've heard his work
Maybe he is just as delusional as the people on idol who think they can
sing but really can't, It takes a pretty big ego to say the things
that you did Jim,

What do you do that makes you so good, or such an expert able to
judge, insult or criticise me and my music?

It's called an ears and an opinion Jim, Anyone who can hear
Or can think can have an opinion on your music
Just like you basically said simon cowell sucks I said you suck
And now you're offended, Go figure, some people in here
think they can dish it out but they can't take it

Terry your friends in here are saying people who
say other people suck (which is what you're saying pianosam is doing
basically) shouldn't because it's mean
Well I can take it, I just don't see why you had to bring him into it

hey Jack and Bill where were you when jim was saying
mostly every young singer in the usa sucks and that jim and his buddies
are way better etc, little bit late eh?
Hey Bill scroll up personal attacks started on the first page by your friend
Jim, where you were then? exactly

Maybe I needed to put a disclaimer for you people to read that this was just my opinion, ( can't believe how uptight the world has got, can't say anyone or anything sucks without someone making a big deal)


This is just ridiculous you people have fun being hypocrites in here

Airun
if you can't understand the difference between Big Jim saying Simon Powell and American Idol is bad and singling out a person on this forum and saying they suck then I don't think I can explain it.
Do I think Big Jim can sing better than Clay Akin?....not on yer life, but that does not mean I think Big Jim sucks. It just means I don't think he can sing better than Clay Akin.

Now I do think Big Jim is a left wing Liberal wuss but that's another issue. After all he lives in a Country where men wear skirts and no underwear. He can't help that.
I am a Right wing hard nose conservative.

I don't think anyone has the right to belittle anyone on this Forum. Not you, Not Big Jim, Not Brian, Not myself.
It is tasteless, immature and mean. Something I would expect from little girls in junior high school.

I have had my little moments but have tried to be careful not to hurt anyone. I have a pretty thick skin, Hell, I'm an old man. I've been beat up pretty good over the years by much meaner folks than you or anyone here.
But some of the folks here are a little green and the wrong attack could damage their confidence and stop them from writing or performing.
Constructive criticism yes, but just being mean....NO.

EDITAirun..I went back to the first page and tried to find where Big Jim attacked you. I did not find anything. Could you point me to it.
Now he did get into a tit fer tat with Brian Maybe that is what you are referring to.
I don't like Taylor Swift. I don't think she can sing at all. I would put the American Idol winners up against her any day. But that is my opinion about a recognized celebrity, not a member of this forum

AIRUN my friend..i have nothing against you or Pianosam personally..BUT..it seems to me a lot of times you come on here you make your point allright..but then you spoil it by little snide personal comments..like "if i want to hear mediocrity i will link up to your soundclick page"....or another fav expression of yours..this "sucks" or that "sucks"..totally childish and immature...so the ONLY contribution i see you offering music-wise on these boards is an offer to work with Pianosam...ok let so let us make it a level playing field...let us see what YOU can do.that is all iam saying....Airun i will let you into a wee secret shall i....i have worked with a lot of people in my time in this business..GREAT MUSICIANS,GREAT WRITERS,GREAT RECORDING GUYS..BUT ALSO...guys, who if they "dreamt" they were songwriters should immediately wake up and apologise...but you learn to hold your counsel in this business...i suggest you do the same.....Terry...

airun I THOUGHT I TOLD YOU TO PUT UP OR SHUT UP.
Your last post is so banal warped and twisted and so far from the truth reason and reality it can only have come from someone who has learning problems or a personality disorder. So I will lay off you cause you are not worth the hassle of writing an in depth reply. GO SEEK HELP.

Terry, Bill and Jack you are all great friends and thanks for the support. It is obvious that airun has problems and perhaps should be pitied rather than censured.

Put up and shut up what? I don't have any lyrics with music, just lyrics, There's no difference between insulting a member of this forum and a celebrity, we're all human beings, In fact I think insulting a celebrity on a public forum is cowardly since they aren't here to defend themselves
I never even made the point that I was one of the best lyricists on these boards or anywhere even, so I don't know why I have to prove I listen to music all the time so I know what's up , so why can't I have an opinion? You said everyone on american idol sucks so when I say you suck you get hurt? Take It, Take It, Take It

Terry once you attacked piano sam you just lost all your credibility in this argument