JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Where is the morality of the young people going?

Okay.

Anybody else? Everett?

My thoughts.
I can not understand how any MAN could have the power to cut a person off from their God.

Richard,

We live in an age, in Western society, where we've rebelled against authority in general. Most of our recent laws have dealt with the rights of the individual. Often, we blame society for the problems of the individual, rather than vice versa, to the point where we make criminals into victims of society. This has filtered down into the social fabric of the family. The individual has become more important than the family. The father sees leaving as an option to being uncomfortable. The mother sees the child as a burden. The child has no respect for the family, any adults, or authority in general.

Your story came from a time when the community was important to the individual's survival. Even across the ocean, I would guess, your wife's grandfather knew how difficult life could be without the support of the Italian/Sicilian community and church, which was central to such a community. He took his case all the way to the Pope so he could prevent the priest from cutting him off from his community. I'm sure this story, the triumph of your grandfather, the imprimatur of the Pope, and the victory over the priest, became an important source of power to your grandfather-in-law in his community. Indeed, you're just his granddaughter's husband, yet you know the story, and seem to be proud of the man's accomplishment.

Try as we like, we still can't evade the importance of community. We make more laws than ever before to protect the individual, and the individual becomes lawless and creates a community of criminality, one that glorifies gangs and violence. We reject the organized church and small churches spring up with charismatic leaders who often dictate stricter interpretations and admonitions. We reject the family and end up with children who have no respect, no history, and no morals.

Had your wife's grandfather been a typical man living today, he might have laughed at the priest, rejected the Pope, run off to live with the girl without marrying her, made a baby or two, left his babies' mama for a younger girl, and gotten on a forum like this to make fun of folks with old-fashioned ideas about God.

Ladynred,
I am sure you are a nice person. But I have been digging out information about religion for the last 50 plus years. You are STILL spouting the OFFICAL LINE that is and has been questioned since at least the time of Martin Luther.

After more than enough seperating the wheat from the chaff, the sheep from the goats, fact from fiction, the message still being touted by many is nothing but bum dope.

Some points to ponder:
The Bible was never intended to be used as it is being used today.
At one time the Bible didn't exist but the writings was put together in one issue by a committee of which may have left out things that should have included.
Every word was written by, humn, SINNERS, who according to the experts, HAVE FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD! Now to be sure how could a sinner be inspired by anything? Sorry, bum dope.

After much investigation, it seems that the Dead should be a Burying the Dead but in Organised Religion it is The Blind Leading the Blind, wouldn't ya say.

Go thru the Posts, Take Notes, bring the observations to your Bible Study class and fire away, uh, be careful, the whole House of Cards just may come tumbling down.

I moved beyond that word believe a long time ago. I have all the facts, actually most of it in the Bible itself. You can believe anything but it doesn't make it true. Know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Are you free yet?

Attack? Where?




Where?

Mike,
I understand what you're saying about the community, etc, but what has that got to do with the reason the man was excommunicated from the church? To me, if a church gets upset when you study and ask questions, it's not much of a church. My church encourages people to study and ask all the questions they want.

Bill,
No MAN can cut off a person from God. If that person is living his life according to God's will, a church can't cut him off. That's why I think it's so crazy that a church like that can claim all power in everything. Look at all the children they have molested. What kind of leadership is that? If they would let their priests marry, I don't think they would have the problems they do.

Mrs. McInnis,

The man was not excommunicated from the church. A priest in the church wrongly tried to excommunicate him, the church did not allow it.

Bill, Many men try to cut people off from God. Some here are trying to. No, a church can't cut people off from God, and that's not what would have happened in the example, a church, however, can cut people off from the church. In this case, it didn't happen.

Ray,
Yes, I'm very free, thank you. The fact that you study various "religions" does not make you a Bible expert. I'm not going to argue any more about it. There are some narrow-minded people in this world and I am not responsible for them when judgement day comes. I am only responsible for myself. If I have told them about Jesus and they don't accept it, so be it. My hands are clean.
I have gotten enough information from this thread to write a song, if not a book. But you all probably wouldn't want to hear it anyway.

Take care. I'm sorry that you want to shoot the messenger who only tries to bring truth and hope. I'll keep on writing and speaking it wherever I can. My songs I write are not "religious", but I do try to write about positive things. I don't write about things I don't believe in just to sell songs in Nashville. I will stay true to myself. I am very stubborn and won't back down from my faith. God has seen me through a lot worse than this.

I hope other new people on this board aren't scared off because of this discussion.

I suppose that's possible, but I tend to doubt it...

Discussions like this always inflame passions. Faith and belief go beyond the "rational"...it is a basic choice that changes everything. So when people try to get into a "rational" discussion and start using "reason" to persuade others of what is true or false, it all breaks down because of a disagreement on the basic premise of the argument. Some have made the leap of faith and some have not...they argue this topic from completely different places, and agreement is not possible.

What is possible is a peaceful acceptance of each other. I'm sorry to read so much hostility and sarcasm in this thread, even though it comes as no surprise.

Think about peace. It is a high priority in every religion (Jesus is often called the Prince of Peace) and usually a major cause among the non-religious as well.

It seems we all want it, but we have difficulty practicing it. If someone with long hair and colored glasses says it, it is usually viewed as a cheap sentiment that simply angers a lot of people...it is ridiculed as hippie propaganda. But it is what we all desire, deep down...to live without rancor and discord.

So I'll express it, and y'all can do what you like with it: Peace.

Thing is, I also will try my best to practice it.

That was my point Mike
The priest cut the guy off from the church. But he could not cut him off from his God. I guess I just stated it wrong.
However, if he had to go to the Pope to get back in it was surely a very serious thing in that day. Sounds like he was given total excommunication. A complete shunning. In that case he could not worship in the way of the church.
But I know exactly nothing about the Catholic religion so I might be wrong.

Damn, we just can't get back to the original question can we.
Since I cannot take part in any discussion that denigrates another persons faith I think I'm out of this one.

I am sorry, Mrs. McInnis, that this has gone in this direction.

Thanks Lyle,
Let there be peace and love.

Welcome to JPF Ladynred. I hope this subject doesn't turn you off from the other boards. Please share some of your lyrics with us on the lyric boards and if you have something that you wrote that has been recorded post it on the MP3 board for us to hear. There is a wealth of knowledge here so take advantage of it. Ben

Ben,
I have posted the lyrics to one of my songs, "Love Was on the Line" and numerous comments have been posted on it.

Sorry, maybe I'm not up to speed. Just wanted to welcome you, Ben

Well Folks,
I have been described as Cold and Calloused because I refuse to believe things that are totally false and refuse to Spout the Offical line.

However about 2000 years ago someone was chided because he refused to Spout the Offical Line. One of us is described as perfect, the other, narrow minded. A double standard to be sure.

It's funny how those little old facts of life will jump up and bite you in the ass when you least expect it isn't it.

There are no "Experts" when it comes to Religion. I never could figure out how one damned heathen could save another damned heathen but many try.

Now can someone tell me why they think the world needs saving? It looks to me like those people that offer this are all self appointed.

I didn't study religion to be an expert. I studied it to defend myself against nice but totally un-informed or misguided people. OK. I am about as well read as you can be about the subject.

When I am confronted about some aspect of religion I am totally serious. I just wish those putting out the message were as well informed.

I posted this before but will repeat it here: I have found that the people most involved in religion know the least about it. They are afraid to step outside the "Box" and question things that don't quite "compute" so they "Pass the Buck" as it were. It's OK. Just leave me out of it as I find it impossible to agree to something that is false. Well this is for educational purposes isn't it?

People who don't know anything about me can't judge whether I've studied or not.
As I said, let there be peace and love.

Hi Ladynred. It does not matter whether you have studied or not it is all about what you believe in. It is almost impossible to change peoples beliefs. Blind faith will always be deaf to any reasoning. I will pass on supplying any contradictory or hypocritical examples from the bible as it would obviously not make any difference to your and others views and beliefs. Suffice to say if you have studied anything about its origins or history you will know that most of it is dubious in content and cannot be taken literally as fact. "Chinese whispers" is the best way to explain why.

Attitude is everything. No one takes you seriously if you don't speak in a loving way.

Yes I agree. But some folk cannot accept that they may be wrong. Argument under those circumstances is futile. Try arguing against extremist Muslim ideals they will cut your head off for blasphemy all in the name of their god.

WOW! Things are sure hot around here. I wonder why those that don't believe in God are so adamant to disprove His existence and destroy the faith of others that do believe, are they about their father's work?

Ray, when Jesus went before Pilate, taken there by the religious leaders of that day, he was scourged and then taken off to be crucified, He was never warned and let go. Maybe you are thinking of Peter and Silas, or maybe Paul. If, as you say, Jesus was just another man, what was His purpose of healing people and preaching of the kingdom of God? It wasn't for money or power because He couldn't afford a roof over His head. He suffered discomforts while He preached for 3 and 1/2 years, He suffered the whip and the cross, not because He was evil but because He was good, and He was showing up the evil of the world and the prince of this world who is evil. When He was being whipped and then nailed to the cross, He didn't plead for His life or recant that He was God, why? What did He have to gain if He was a crook? He was and is the son of God and He stayed on that cross because it was the only way that our sins could be paid for. If man is stubborn enough to not believe, then let it be so, pay for your own sins.

I started this thread but did not want or expect it to evolve into a religious war between believers and atheist. Atheist believe in the goodness of man, while I believe in the goodness of God. Take God out of this world and you'll soon see where this world will end up.

There are a few words in the bible, like "four corners of the earth" that are not true but was said to make a point, not to say that the earth was square.

No man can save another man's soul, only God can do that, but man can tell other men the way to salvation but can't force them to accept it. Just as you can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink.

Well said, Everett. Big Jim, yes, some people won't admit they're wrong, especially people who so adamantly refuse there is a God. Can you prove there isn't a God? How did the world begin? You believe the big bang theory? Let me ask you this, if I take the parts inside a watch and just throw them into the air and they fall back into a pile, do you think that watch will work? I don't think so. Someone has to know how to put the parts together to make them work. Also, I think anyone who looks at the human anatomy and the way men and women were made to procreate, how could that just happen? Are some people so blind that they can't see the magnificence of the universe around them?

Yes, that refusal to accept is called "faith." Just as most atheists have faith in their belief, we believers have faith in ours.

I thank God I wasn't an atheist, I was agnostic. Didn't believe, but was willing to accept that I might be wrong. Prayer led me to belief and to faith in my belief. My challenge to agnostics is to try praying, if you don't know how, just talk to God, and see what happens.

Now, Jim, to you I ask, do you accept that you may be wrong? Or are you just as extreme as we believers?

Mike,
Sounds like a song title to me, "Thank God, I'm not an Atheist".

Originally Posted By:
But some folk [I] cannot accept that they [I] may be wrong.

If this post upsets you, please go to my Profile and click on "Ignore This User".

Belief is like ink.

On the other hand, the title "Thank God I'm an Atheist" is more funny.

Everett,
Again Re-read Matthew 2:2. No one stated there is no God. There is something. God is as good a name as any.
Matthew says King of the Jews not savior of the universe.

If you can, read between the lines. Jesus wasen't punished for his beliefs, well maybe he was. The Romans were in the so- called Holy land to establish Law and Order. The City of Rome got tired of outside forces invading and ransacking Rome so they built Armies and went out into the region in an attempt to stop the pillaging. That is why they were in the Holy Land.

Jesus was, for all practical purposes, a trouble maker, law breaker and rebel rouser, and didn't understand or didn't like the Romans being there so decided to take things into his own hands. No it probably isn't written down anywhere and then maybe it is. Many others suffered the safe fate as Jesus for probably the same reasons. Not religion, law breaking. We today still arrest law breakers and prosocute them.

If Jesus was not let go after going before Pilot, where does the story of Judas pointing Jesus out come from? Well I wasn't there and so maybe I got it wrong. Believe what you want to, he did appoint himself to his whatever. He probably meant well, (Don't we all) but went about it the wrong way.

It has been estimated that Jesus was born under the Astrological Sign of Pisces. Pisces is the 12th Sign of the Zodiac, The sign of un-doing. Jesus certainly un-did himself. A perfect individual wouldn't have suffered that Fate. The Zodiac is divided into 12 signs. Jesus had 12 deciples. Some think he studied with the Astrologers before attempting to be a Prophet.
The Wise men were Astrologers.

We are now well into the Age of Aquarius among other things the Age of Enlightment. Jesus was born at the beginning of the Age of Pisces, among other things known as The Dark Ages.

The Planet Uranus ruler of the Sign Aquarius and the Age of Aquarius breaks down the old to make way for the new. Old religous superstitions are being examined more than ever and those that cannot stand the light of day will be dismissed. Uranus also rules electricty and sudden actions. Uranus also is the higher octave of Mercury, Ruler of communications. Uranus rules higher forms of communications such as the Internet.


There is, of course, many opinions, even today about the creditability, of Christanty, inside the instutions, let alone outside of them.

The Age of Pisces and the Sign of Pisces is ruled by the Planet Neptune, among other things fantasy, illusion, deception, self deception. etc. That is why there is so much confusion about Christiany.

Everett, I have no doubt that Jesus realised the folly of his ways as he was about to be nailed to the cross. Can't prove it but have no doubt. What do you suppose were the problems of the day that got Jesus so steamed up, if it was his own that he turned against? After all it seems he didn't like how things were among the people of the Holy Land, not the Romans.

Ladynred, I don't remember anyone mentioning the Big Bang Theory. The 64 dollar question is, How did we all get here? The 64 dollar answer is nobody knows. That doesn't lend one bit of creditability to the fact that Jesus is the Son of God. Actually we are all the Sons of God. E Plurbus Unum.

Some people think the Universe is only 5000 years old. Scientists estimate the Universe is some 13 plus billion years old, at least in it's present age.

If I have to believe one or the other, I will take the 13
billion years.

Some think Mary was a Virgin. Between Mary being a Virgin and the Big Bang Theory, I'll take the Big Bang Theory.

In Astology the Planet Pluto, among other things, digs up the underworld exposing it to the sunlight. For the past several years Pluto has been transiting the sign Sagittarius. Sagittarius rules religion. The exposing of the sex scandals in the Catholic Church among others are a result of Pluto's Transit.

Actually the Planets do nothing, they just indicate what trends are likely to happen.

With the Age of Aquarius there may and will be sudden upsets in Organised Religion. Today there has been in the news attacks on Christmas and Religion. It is merely an examination of the facts and seperating fact from fiction. I could go on but I need to write one more song befor 2008 ends!

Well Ladynred and Everett.
The earth was square until scientists upset the church by arguing that it was round. OH they were not happy bunnies. It took the church a very long time to accept this fact. Same with evolution. Same with all the other discoveries that puts the existence of god in doubt. First the church condemned them as heresy then eventually had to admit that they were wrong all along. What else from the preachings will be proved wrong?
Re the watch, irrelevant makes no sense, bad example. Man made it so man can fix it. More chance of man fixing it than god.
Re anatomy and biology I suggest a read of Darwin's Origin of Species will put you right about some of the misconceptions and naive attitudes you have.
Some people are so blind that they cannot see the wood for the trees.
Re proving there is not a GOD. I do not have to. If he was indeed everything he is claimed to be then he would have proved his existence beyond all reasonable doubt by now after all he has had billions of years and plenty of chances. He also would not have made such a mess of things in the first place.
I have studied various religions with a logical process and mind. I get very angry at any religion that installs narrow mindedness and bigotry.
The only answers I usually receive from Christians to questions about the existence of god and the religion's many flaws is by quoting a book which is proved to be a fable whose followers have nothing more concrete than inherited indoctrinization and sheer blind faith. Or prove there is no god.
Well you prove there is one. I mean actual proof, proper evidence not hearsay or quotations from a book of fables.

Jim, concerning my question. Do I take your previous post to mean that you will not accept that you might be wrong? Answer mine first. If you accept you may be wrong, I'll answer your questions from my perspective, my answers won't prove anything "scientifically," however, I'll be happy to share with you the reasons why I have faith. If you do not accept that you may be wrong, I simply will not bother.

Lyle,

There's already a song, "Thank God I'm an Atheist." It's a parody of John Denver's "Thank God I'm a Country Boy."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIYVfyZV72A

It's pretty irreverent, may be offensive, and has adult moments. Enjoy.

I accept that I may be wrong I never said otherwise. It is just the fact that so many people have definite beliefs based on nothing more than just a belief. They refuse to listen to reason and call everyone else a heretic. I am always open to intelligent points of view however.
Re prayers.... apart from giving a person a false sense of hope and inner calmness which can be achieved with breathing excercises I cannot see any benefits. There is never any acknowledgement and few if any ever get answered. Perhaps if there is a god he should pray to me for forgiveness. Whilst I am not perfect by any means I think morally he has more to answer for than me. I am not trying to sound smart. I just cannot imagine how such a perfect being can make so many mistakes and cause or at least allow/condone all the suffering and bloodshed.

Reasonable, except using the word "false," concerning prayer, then you are making an assumption (unless you really do not accept the possiblity that you're wrong).

Right off the bat, you're blaming God for mistakes people make. Just because folks behave uncivilly, that doesn't prove or disprove God.

I think God apologized sufficiently on the cross, of course that's my belief, but assuming, as I do, that it's so, it's sufficient and I forgive him for my petty pains and sufferings.

God's perfection, to me, is not man's perfection. We think perfection is measuring something down to the thousandth of an inch; designing electron microscopes; cracking the human genome code; smashing the atom. With our perfection we get better weapons and more questions.

God's perfection is that He Is, Always Was, and Always Will Be. Pretty doggone perfect. He can't be measured, He refuses to be, so He hides Himself in mystery. If we could find Him and measure Him with science, then our belief and faith would be of no use. Instead we simply believe or not, and if we believe we simply have faith or not. Having faith in someone whose existence we can't prove is perfection. God doesn't make mistakes, we erroneously believe they are mistakes in our search for human perfection.

I believe God could have made a world without pain or discomfort, but it would be full of pride and contentment. There's no perfect faith in pride, that's the fall of the angels.

In human terms, using rational thought, could I be wrong? Sure. But I don't believe I am.

Heh, it's worse that that. We'd immediately starting asking "who made You, God? What are You made of? And what is the stuff that makes You made of?" And so on...

Reasonable argument I respect your views. I do not LOOK for flaws in god they are just so noticeabale as to make me believe that he does not exists or if he does I do not agree with his logic and actions. This thing about Jesus. I cannot get my head around. First of all if he was so perfect why could he not come up with a better idea than sacrificing his son? What about folk who believe in god but do not accept the jesus thing. Correct me if I am wrong but Christianity is a fairly newborn minnow in the world of religions. Does that mean that all the non christians post Jesus are all wrong? What about all the folk who have never been brainwashed about Jesus or are taught and immediately accept that he is not the son of god?
As you said folk believe for many reasons. I personally have not found any of those reasons sufficient to make me believe. Totally the opposite. I refuse to accept hypocracy, dillusion, brainwashing or grooming, bigotry, an emotional crutch and naive refusal to accept anything else, as sufficient reaqsons for me to accept any unproven theory. Call me agnostic call me atheist it does not really matter. I try to imagine a world without any religion and can only come up with more positives than negatives. Thinking about religion I can only think of its negative implications and poor track record.
Re the false bit I meant it in the artifical sense as in a drug or hypnosis to make you feel something you are really not. Many people get a false sense of inner well being from prayer. Just like a pain killer.
Just one final point contrary to some beliefs you do not have to be religious to have morals and be a good person. Just cause you are religious does not make you have morals and be a good person.

As to reasons to believe, you have to find your own. Most folks find what they look for.

I don't know if there was a better idea, in human terms, than sacrificing His son/self. I think it's perfect.

I also refuse hypocrisy, dillusion, brainwashing, but not grooming, my mother insisted on good grooming. To me, it's proven that unconditional faith, like unconditional love, is perfect.

I can't judge folks, ask God.

I won't call you anything out of your name as long as I remain strong and keep you in love. If I do, please let me know, I'm working on that. I find eternal life to be more positive, everything else breaks even.

My faith wasn't lit by the way a prayer made me "feel." It was how the prayer was answered. Could it have been a coincidence? OF course, but I don't believe it was.

I don't recall any post on this thread saying one has to be religious to have morals. Maybe I missed it. If any did, I'd disagree.

Anyway, let me thank you, Jim, you've caused me to examine my faith, to read and pray, and that's certainly good. God bless you and may He keep you in His love and mercy.

There are some really smart people that come and express their views here and I really appreciate all of you. Mike, I do accept the fact the I could be wrong and that's why I DO listen. Especially to you, you can put things in a non-judgmental, calm, concise way that isn't black and white...and you are very tolerant of people that don't agree with you, taking consideration of their side and their feelings. I love you man

Mike certainly has a "foothold" on his faith...and when he teaches, is that "podogogy"?...

"URANUS also rules electricty and sudden actions."

Ray that is just too funny. I can't help it. LOL

Ray according to you:

"Sagittarius rules religion."

I'm a Sagittarius, does that mean I rule religion?

You know all this reminds me of a quote I read once on the Internet and I printed it out and put it on my wall at work:

"I'd rather live my life as if there IS a GOD and die and find out there ISN'T, than to live my life as if there ISN'T a GOD and die and find out there IS."

Thanks Mike. You make sense in all you say. You do put things in their proper perspective. You do not judge others but ask them to think. Unfortunately I do not have that amount of patience or tact.
This thing needs finalising as there are other things to talk about.
Ask yourself this question it does not need an answer here only honestly within yourself. If somebody had not told you about the existence of God or you had never read or heard of any such thing how would you have worked out all by yourself that he actually exists, or is that a trick question? Put crudely Did God create man or did man create God.

Big Jim,
The tribes in Africa before some of them heard of God, knew that there was a higher being that created the world. The Native Americans worshipped their idea of God, though they worshipped different gods for different things, like the sun god, etc. How did they know before the "white man" came along and told them?
If a person doesn't know who invented electricity, does that mean they cannot believe in Internet, TV's, etc.?

So what happens when you die and find out that there IS a god -- but it's Quetzalcoatl?

Ah...there is a songwriter in the bunch!

LOL! It would be even funnier if I knew who that was!{Quetzalcoatl}

Hi Ladynred They did not "know" anything they just, like all religions, made it up. However as they had different beliefs from you then that makes at least one of your religions wrong. You cannot state the existence of God as a fact only as an opinion. It is only a belief and in the big world picture only a minority viewpoint at that.

I pose the same question to you as in previous post. If you had not been, BRAINWASHED, or told, or preached to or perhaps lived in another part of the world how would you "know" and accept your own brand of religion and god's existence?
You cannot answer that truthfully without questioning your own faith.

Well here's a link you might like Big Jim
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
Zeitgeist - The Movie, 2007

Reading Ray's post I think he might have already been there.
I got a good laugh out of it.

Hmmmmm I take that back. It wasn't funny at all.

Here ya go Bob

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Quetzalcoatl_telleriano2.jpg

Quetzalcoat eating a man.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Quetzalcoatl_telleriano.jpg

Yeah Speaking from your head is sometimes better than speaking from your heart which is always preferable to speaking from Uranus.

All those tribes believed, not knew, there was a god, or gods.
Sure wasn't a lot of help to any of them when the white man came along and taught them the hard way they had probably been wrong all along.
Graham