JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Where is the morality of the young people going?

Oops I just saw John Daubert's idea about putting our viewpoints in a lyrical fashion. Here's mine.

I cannot speak for others,
So I speak for myself,
When I have reached for Jesus,
He wasn't on a shelf.

He made Himself available,
When I would seek in prayer,
He'd answer yes, or no, or wait,
And I could feel Him there.

He's with me every moment,
He loves me ever so,
Though I can't see or touch His face,
His love inside me grows.

He's been with me through sadness,
He's held my hand through pain,
I don't deserve His goodness,
Yet He gives it for no gain.

Though others may ignore Him,
Deny Him and feel hate,
They'll one day have to answer,
When they stand at Heaven's gate.

It's then that they will realize,
He is who He proclaims,
He'll say I never knew you,
For you never called my name.

So take the love of Jesus,
For it's a gift from Him,
He's knocking at your heart's door,
Oh won't you let Him in!

If the fables are true Lynn. It wasn't jesus who gave us a freedom of choice.
It is said to be God.
A long way from the most important a person can make for those who choose not to be swayed by the teachings of the bible, as presented by whoever bent them to their own purposes throughout the ages.
That question would be differant for most I am sure.
The depressed. Deciding if they wanted to see tomorrow or not.
The drunk. If they wanted to take the chance on having just one drink or not.
The accidental parent, if they wanted to have and/or keep the child or not.
The termanally ill. If they should try something else, or live what time they had as best they could.
All way ahead of "what do I believe" in my book.
Graham

It's hard to call anything a fable unless you know for sure it is. Personally, I don't put down anyone for their beliefs, even if they differ from mine. Man may very well have misinterpeted the word of any given God in any of the religions. But, if you follow almost any of the religions out there, the answer to those critical questions asked above are answered.
Religion is not bad because some bad things have been done in it's name. And if anyone is going to list those they should also list all the good things that have been done in the name of religion. Fair is fair.

Does religion have any bearing on morality? Only if you follow it.

Would a lot of the bad things happening in the world today be happening if everyone followed the moral codes that most religions preach? I don't think so.

Would our youth have better morals if they followed those standards? I am sure they would.

Though you may deny me
you I never will
in your day of trouble
call, I'll answer still

Though you may not see me
I see you each day
in your time of sorrow
kneel, I'll hear you pray

Though you may not love me
mine I won't deny
even on your deathbed
Pray, I'll hear your cry

The Age of Aquarius is upon us. We are leaving the Age of Pisces.
The Age of Pisces was The Dark Ages, The Age of Aquarius is the Age of Enlightment. Over the next 2000 years things will be much clearer. Already a lot of things about religion are being dismissed. Of course that has been happening at least from the time Martin Luther broke with the Catholic Church. There have been many divisions since then.

I have learned over my life that the people most involved in religion know the least about it. There are so many hard questions I could ask but no person involved in religion wants to lift the veil and look underneath, perferring to stick their head in the sand and ignore it. And when someone does ask a hard question they aren't prepared to answer, afraid they will do something wrong. So they avoid the subject or whitewash it with some mumbo jumbo even they don't even understand.

But even with all the confusion there is nothing to worry about so be happy!

Lynn,

Pretty hard to argue with a person's personal experience, which is what you've offered in this song. Your experience coincides with my own in many respect in these matters. It didn't always, which is why respect the others views who have weighed in here, but it does now. And has for 33 years--as long as Jesus Christ walked this earth.

Graham,

I've handcopied the Bible cover to cover, some portions several times. I'm in the middle of memorizing the 12 chapters of the prophet Daniel. Just did the first seven verses of Daniel 7 this morning, every word, how to spell every word, the punctuation, and even with the writing forward and in reverse. I have in the past memorized the eight chapters of Song of Solomon, the 22 chapters of Revelation, the four chapters of Jonah, the Sermon on the Mount, and many other individual chapters. So I've got more than a little knowledge on a book you label "fables". There is even, in fact, a couple of fables included in the Bible as a literary form--one in the book of Judges where all the trees of the forest go out to find themselves a king, and one in the gospel of Luke where a very old story that had been told a hundred different ways among the nation of the ancient East before Jesus' time was picked up by Him and used to convey His own content (the Rich Man and Lazarus).

To label the whole Book fables--a Book that has been more influential in world history than any other ever written--is fairly "politically correct" in our day, I will admit. Many fools will applaud you for it. I will not be among them. Perhaps, contrary to Ray's experience in meeting people involved with religion, I do know the content of my faith, and also the God I worship. That is the God of the Bible--a book which includes in addition to its very sparse number of actual fables such literatry forms as history, poetry, the words to a full scale musical, a hymnbook collection with seven distinct forms of lyric formats which we no longer use (we being limited to three over the past 150 years in Western music), words to plays, prophecies, short stories, apocalyptic literature, adventure stories, family histories, geneologies, attempts at genocide, dreams and their interpretation, law codes, intergalactic politics, natural history, rules for warfare and kingship, chronicles written about every ruler from Saul and David's time until the Israelite nation went into Babylonian captivity, letters, epic family sagas, the stories of a single man grown into a nation over the course of 2,000 years, proverbs and even gospels--those literary one of a kind inventions necessary to adequately express the life, work and meaning of the man Jesus Christ. It is amazing that with the huge diversity of writing styles and 40 highly varied authors writing over the course of 1,600 years that they all end up making the same points and give such a unified worldview. The fact those books were penned over the course of so many centuries also allows us to see how behind the human authors there is a Great Intelligence that introduces Himself to us in this book, demonstrates His existence in ways that appeal to the human intellect and heart, and says, "You want to know Me? Take a step closer. Listen to My Word."

I'm guessing you value the Bible to approximately the degree you have given careful attention to its contents. Same as me.

Ray,

I know the New Age take on these things. It is entirely wishful thinking. Those of us who are of the Bible faith will not be going anywhere. There are no other world views out there to compare, or come close to competing with what is presented in the Bible. I know. I read my way through the philosophy and religion section in my local library in Centralia, Washington where I grew up (two long shelves) by the time I was 17.

I've studied and continue to study the alternative world views to the Biblical one on an ongoing basis--both in books and through many, many thousands of face to face conversations on such matters over the past 20 years. Why should a hungry man give up bread for sand? Or a thirsty man give up water for smoke? Don't think the Biblical form of Christianity will be making its exit from the world scene any time soon.

Don't count on another 2,000 years to find out whether it will, either. Take a look at the second chapter of Daniel, the unfolding of the great nations and empires of earth from 600 B.C. to our own day--and beyond. We don't have another 2,000 years to meddle around with the old worship of spirit powers dressed up as something new and novel. Things are going to be winding up here quickly. Next major thing on the agenda is major intervention from outside planet Earth--an intervention that will be inescapable for all.

It astonishes me the basic ignorance of the contents of the Bible among those who consider themselves quite up to date and informed. How can a person consider themselves to be well-read at all if they have not given careful consideration to the claims of that Book? It is inconcievable to me. And yet I find even clergy who haven't a clue and pass on a little hearsay they picked up in Sunday School and the seminary to crowds of equally Biblically illiterate parishioners. And all this while Bibles sit unread in the pews in front of them and on their shelves at home. Call a book fables, and nobody takes it seriously enough to pick it up and make careful personal investigation. Its almost as good as burning them, like the religious authorities did at the ending of the Middle Ages.

Is the Bible mere fables? How can a person even be in a position to make such a statement until they've at least read it thoroughly? How this book can be slandered above all others when it excels them all to such a remarkable degree is one of the great mysteries--and perhaps reveals the flaw that will in the end destroy humanity itself. Nobody is quite so blind as the man with his eyes tightly clenched shut.

I am a man of one Book, though I read many. That one Book is the Bible. Why settle for less than the best? I've also read, as I mentioned before, at least major portions of the holy books and philosophies of pretty much every other world religion, plus a shelf as far across as I can reach of those promoting the Darwinian evolutionary explanation for the origins and alleged development of biological life on Earth. They were the ones who convinced me they were not correct. They changed their proofs for their theory every generation for four generations running, but never lost the one truth faith--that Darwin must have somehow been right, even though their solid proofs kept evaporating every time they turned around, and needing to be replaced by equally ephemeral supports. I didn't need Creationist literature beyond what I found for myself in the Bible to show me they did not have an intellectually viable or defensible explanation. Increasing numbers of them are coming to that conclusion in our day. It is the beliefs of about 9% of the population that holds undisputable center stage in our educational system in America at present. How can such a marginalized minority weild such a bully pulpit?

We do live in a time when people are questioning the foundations and assumptions of systems that have held sway in man's intellect in past centuries. We now know pretty much everything anybody has thought on these matters in recorded history before us, or at least have that information available for the looking. So when I choose the Bible and its world view and its God in preference to all other options, it is not due to ignorance. It is due to a very clear-eyed choice among available options. Nothing out there matches what the Bible offers. Everything else is less.

I cannot be happy when I see masses of people making bad choices that hurt them and others on the basis of a lack of vital information that would allow them to do otherwise. That's why I recommend a cutting free of all traditions and dogmas and a reexamination of the founding document--the Bible, the most influential Book in human history. Its got a fable or two, alright. But it is more than that.

Keep us thinking.

Skip

This has been a great and fascinating thread...Such passion exists on both sides...We will NEVER know who is right and who is wrong here. I love the fact that people here on both sides have allowed the "grey" to seep into their arguments. This can't possibly be black and white. The non-believers still wonder about aspects of God, and the believers DO admit that the Bible can't be the ALL truth (wasn't it written at least 70 years after Jesus died??..People have trouble remembering a week ago)

So many of you wrote so eloquently...I just want to say that even though I am in the non-believers camp in general, and I don't think there is somebody up there like watching down on my every move, I often do wonder if it took some amazing power or deity to start the whole universe. It was certainly a very BIG bang and is imcomprehensible. Could the universe just have started naturally and by accident?

Skip,
I wrote in a post up above that the Bible has it's own built in Disclamer. You sound as if you are well read in these things. Have you recoginized it yet? You have found it but do you recoginize it? Don't feel too bad. It takes a lot of study.

I don't believe there is any fiction in the Bible. However taking a bunch of so called facts and "Making the News" rather than reporting the news best describes what has happened over the last 2000 years of what now is known as Christianity.

And while it isn't presented in any Church setting, Christianity
has it's roots buried deep in Astrology. Astrology goes back as far as the written word, long before Jesus came along. It was Ancient Astrologers who identified Jesus as "Born King of the Jews", not savior of the Universe. Somehow that got screwed up over the last 2000 years. Read Matthew 2:2. Facts will always be facts, fiction will always be fiction.

Some 2500 years ago at least one Ancient Astrologer was casting Charts into the future. Some 500 years into the future he saw the most powerful chart he had ever seen. It was seen as a Great Prophet would be born.

500 years later more Ancient Astrologers followed up this "Prophicy" known as the Three Wise Men. The Wise Men are mostly ignored today but Jesus is taken at his word that he is, well you know the story. But it seems that not everyone bought his story even then and he was turned in by one of his own and received a crown of thorns for his trouble. The story goes that he died on the cross for our sins but it sounds like he didn't exactly volunteer to be nailed to the cross as a lot of others did also. I don't care if anyone chooses to stick his head in the sand. Just keep it to yourself because I haven't missed anything when it comes to religion. And as you may know a lot of things were not included in the Bible. Ask a Catholic, a Methodist, a Baptist, etc.

P.S. I have learned more about religion in Astrology Publications than any other place. Just think if the Ancients had not made that trek 2000 years ago.

Herbie, man's memory may be short but the Holy Spirit's memory is not, He inspired man to record history.

Ray, Jesus said"no man takes my life, I lay it down" He could have called legions of angels to help Him, but He knew this was the only way man's sins could be forgiven, so He did it. I know man is ungrateful for what He did but if just one accepted His sacrifice, He still would have done it.

Thank you Skip for your wisdom.

Ah, but back to the question? What about the morality of our youth?

I believe you can be moral without religion.

I also believe it's very hard to be religious without morals.

Everett,
Two things. Re-read Matthew 2:2. Second, If I said I was all the things Jesus claimed would you believe me? I think not. Others even in our own time haved claimed to be Prophets. Do you believe them? I think not. Well it is Christmas Day so have a very merry Christmas!

Picture this scenario

You have a God who has created people on a rock called Earth. He has watched them for a few thousand years become Heathens and has done some miracles like destroying cities and turning people into salt, even knocked down a great Pharaoh and parted the Red Sea. All this in an attempt to get these Heathens to worship Him.
Nothing has worked. He has a small following who call themselves Jews but even many of them don't really believe in HIM.

So, he makes himself a son and sends him down to the rock to tell the people to believe in GOD. That should do it. That will be more convincing than the other stuff he has tried for the last few thousand years.
But what happens? It doesn't work. The people kill the son. The Jews reject him. And a new set of worshipers emerges and calls themselves Christians.
So, instead of sending down a legion of Angels to kick the crap out of these non believers and set up an Army of Angels to police these idiots he just lets them go ahead and kill the kid. They then spend the next couple thousand years being just as immoral and stupid as they were before they killed the kid.
He expects to win them over buy having a few people write a book about it.
While all the time letting them die from terrible diseases and floods and Famine. Kill each other in senseless wars. Rape the Planet of its resources. Exterminate many species.

Yep,,that's how I would do it.

And in my case have two of my children die in their sleep. No cause, no reason, they are just dead. Just like that. And take another as he emerges to life.

And, He still expects people to get down on their knees and worship Him?

I don't think so.

I'll try to live out my life as a good person and if that ain't good enough. So be it.

But for those of you that do I give you all my respect. You are certainly a hardy and determined lot. It takes a lot of guts to do that.

Bill "You are certainly a hardy and determined lot. It takes a lot of guts to do that."
Or a lot of stupidity indoctrination and ignorance.
If got is perfect and all seeing how could he create something imperfect in the first place. Or indeed having created an imperfection why can't he fix it?
No doubt some bible thumper will think of a silly answer like it is not for us to judge God but for him to judge us.

Uh......why?

Some forums prohibit discussions on politics and religion - topics thought to be contentious and unresolvable.

Richard this is a music and songwriting forum. Songs are written about every aspect of life death, religion and politics. Therefore we should be allowed to air our views freely without censorship. That is what makes this forum so good. FREEDOM OF SPEECH and the diverse views and opinions it generates. I argue with my family fairly regularily. Whilst I can argue with somebody here over theology politics or any other subject it never gets personal or affects any help or advice we mutually give or receive.

Somewhere along the way, the discussion on morality of our children was lost. There is no way the question of religion is going to be solved on this thread. But it sure would be nice to work on the morality problem. And it's not only the children who are losing theirs. They, like their parents, learn by example. I was watching a news show last night talking about preteen girls whose naked pictures showed up on the internet. When the parents were informed, most acted like they really didn't care. That's the type of example I'm talking about. Since when is that OK? Probably since about the time that "Girls Gone Wild" videos and spring breaks that are nothing more than drunken/drugged orgies put on national TV were OK. Come on people, lets get this back on track. Not just the discussion, but the morality itself.

The first four thousand years, from Adam to Jesus, people lived under the law, where they could be punished for breaking that law then and there, the next two thousand years, from Jesus to now, we live under grace, where we won't be punished or judged for our sins until after death. Jesus paid for our sins but if you don't believe that and accept that, then you are still guilty of your sins and will pay after death.

Folks, calling others' beliefs "stupid" or "silly" is always taken personally. Try arguing without modifiers. Here's an example:

"One should argue without modifiers."

compared with:

"One should argue without mean-spirited modifiers."

Also, here's a hint, people who don't believe do not like to be told they are going to burn in hell. In our modern culture, once people are adults, it usually does not help make them believe, and more often will cause them to harden their resolve to reject the message. Hell doesn't make folks believe, it makes believers careful. In the case of our group here at JPF, musicians are a very "peer driven" lot, we like to think of ourselves as individuals and "mavericks" but the truth is, most of us usually adopt the styles, politics, and even beliefs of our musical peers. As musicians, we tend reject authority, because many of those in power throughout our lives have tried to discourage and even prohibit us from our music, but we embrace the values of our peers. Want to influence musicians? Do it by example and friendly discourse, not by name-calling, fear tactics, or mockery of someone's beliefs.

Hi John

We live in a world where it seems everything and everybody has a price. TV and films are 'good' because they make money. Politicians go for looks and soundbites. The concept of a private life seems to have followed liberty through the out door.

Possibly this is because the society which grew up after WW2 was one based around re-building a better world, and the west had an implacable enemy in the east. That sense of togetherness no longer exists, and we are bombarded daily with messages of undefined danger from attack, interrupted by commercials offering stuff we just have to buy. This affects adults as much as children. The things that bind people together are easily lost - the things that make them selfish are many and tempting!

Dan

Talking's good. Doing's better. Here in the States, there's a great program called Big Brothers and Big Sisters of America, it's a mentoring program for "at-risk" kids. Here's their website:

www.bbbsa.org

A little time or a little money for them can help make a difference.

We can only do our best to live by our principles and try our best to make sure our children follow our example. It is almost impossible to force others to adopt OUR ways when do not want to or cannot agree with our morals or ideaology. Nowadays kids "grow up" far to quickly but do not become real adults until it is too late and the damage is done.

Oh, I don't know. A few months ago, we solved a problem some guy was having with his amplifier.

Who said anything about solving anything.
We are just having a nice little fireside chat because we are bored with songwriting and taking a little break.

Although I did write two songs while this was going on.

Originally Posted By: Big Jim Merrilees
"Richard this is a music and songwriting forum . . . Whilst I can argue with somebody here over theology politics or any other subject it never gets personal . . ."

Originally Posted By: Big Jim Merrilees
"Bill 'You are certainly a hardy and determined lot. It takes a lot of guts to do that.'
Or a lot of stupidity indoctrination and ignorance. . . . No doubt some bible thumper will think of a silly answer like it is not for us to judge God but for him to judge us."


Big Jim. While critiquing songs on a songwriting forum is perfectly appropriate, ridiculing those whose belief systems differ from your own is not. Surely you can tell the difference.


Originally Posted By: Big Jim Merrilees
"I argue with my family fairly regularily."

Big Jim. You may not be aware of how comments interpreted by your family to be harmless are perceived by those outside your family.

Good Gawd, is this thing still going on???!!!

Post deleted by Bob Cushing

Where is the morality of the older people? The juvenile judge is hosting the JC's (Junior Citizens) club for child porno parties. 47 Kentucky sheriffs were busted putting drugs they confiscated back on the market. The sheriff and 12 deputies in Roanoke, Virginia, same story. Bill Gates' Microsoft threatened to 'cut off their air' if anyone dared defy them and market their software without bundling it with theirs. Enron had no business; just tax schemes. One Enron employee said, "I had $400,000. in my retirement account they sent me a check for three cents." Global Crossings. The subprime mortgage crisis was caused, deliberately, not accidentally, not some ineptitude on a massive scale, but a set-em-up/knock-em-down, an inside job like the Savings and Loan crisis of a few years ago. For you young people, S&L's were like banks. They hadn't lost a dime in 60 years until the Democrats and Republicans deregulated them. Now they don't exist. The President of the US and company lied to start a war in Iraq that's taken 100's of thousands of lives, made millions refugees, and is tapping the treasury to the tune of $15 billion a week that nobody knows where it goes. Afghanistan is safe for poppy farmers to harvest opium, probably to process it to morphine and on into heroin, and to transport it to supply 90% of planet Earth's illegal heroin market in 2006. Senators get caught soliciting sex in restrooms, taking yachts in return for votes, rigging elections, associating with criminals. Preachers and priests get caught having sex with their congregation, sodomizing children, stealing the churches' money for their own purposes. Radio men make racist statements and keep working. You can watch people having sex on tv in your living room. So can your kids. There are "Live/Nude" signs on buildings around most big towns, including the capital cities of states and within blocks of the US Capitol and White House. I wonder whose sons and daughters those are. Doctors are pumping Oxycontin into the community, turning people into addicts, thieves and prostitutes, aided by pharmacists and pharmaceutical companies and, apparently by the Drug Enforcement Agency which didn't stop one clinic until it had put 1.5 million pills into an area with maybe a couple hundred thousand residents, total. Just one clinic.
Young people's morality? Yeah, it's very much a reflection of the society of older people they live in.

Richard We are in the music business. If you cannot take criticism and insults then you are in the wrong business. However I have stated before and will state again my opinions are just my opinions and should not be taken personal. We are all adults and anybody who cannot take a bit of banter or indeed a put down should grow up. I have had my fair share of insults and disagreements both on these boards and out in the big bad world of showbusiness. I can stick up for myself and my beliefs as can everybody else. I prefer folk to speak their mind and be honest it beats the hell out of agreeing with or praising something that they do not really believe in. That goes for some critiques as well. I wonder when reading some critques if I actually was listening to the same song. "Great song I really liked it" when the song was poorly sung, poorly recorded had a woeful tune and appalling lyrics.
I said earlier that I respect peoples right to follow any belief or religion thay want. I also believe that we also have the right to criticise those beliefs. I see bible thumpers preaching all the time and telling me I am damned for not believing. I am just returning fire.

Good program Mike. I was fortunate enough to be a part of the program by becoming a "big sister" to my "little sister" for almost a decade. She is grown now w/a family of her own and we still stay in touch and are very good friends. I recommend it highly.

Big Jim Merrilees. If it is your opinion that something is silly or that someone is ignorant, you have a right to feel that way. But when you tell a person he is ignorant, or refer to an entire class of people in derogatory terms, you are being offensive and insulting - no matter how you slice it up. I don't know what makes you think you have a "right" to criticize anybody's beliefs. You don't. And even if you did, this is not the place to do it.

It's possible for a person to be so determined to be right that he can't admit fault. That's you. And your pretzel logic doesn't fool anybody. The best thing you can do for yourself is admit you are offensive and try to do something about it.

No Richard you are most wrong. I certainly do not call people "dicks". Talking about "dicks" you just blew your argument right out of the water. Maybe if some "dicks" stopped preaching hypocracy and stupidity and getting on their high horse when folk disagrees with them then the world and it's morals would be better.

Everett, you wrote:
Jesus paid for our sins but if you don't believe that and accept that, then you are still guilty of your sins and will pay after death.
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I was thinking...so, if I don't agree then I burn in hell...It's disgusting to me that's what you think!!! Sorry, but it's like, do what I do or you're doomed. It's arrogant and condescending. It makes me run the other way from your thoughts....Then....
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Mike Dunbar (one of the most tolerant and wise men that I know said)in the very next reply said
Also, here's a hint, people who don't believe do not like to be told they are going to burn in hell. In our modern culture, once people are adults, it usually does not help make them believe, and more often will cause them to harden their resolve to reject the message. Hell doesn't make folks believe, it makes believers careful.
Once again, you read my mind Mike...I swear you give the BEST and most well thought out retorts...You believers really need to understand this concept.
In general, I can talk, even disagree with someone about almost any topic and still be friends with them. When someone says if you don't agree you're gonna burn in hell...I dunno..It's just too black and white for me and too big a bridge to cross. After that, I'd avoid that person like the plague.

Skip has NEVER put it in those terms, and I read his threads...he tells about his beliefs, he quotes the Bible...but he does it in a way where I can still choose to believe or not...I have been moved to tears by some of his stories and how big his heart is and his great sensitivity and understanding. I listen to his point of view.

If you believers truly want to get through to us non-believers, do it in a helpful way....to tell us we're gonna burn in hell if we don't think your way will NEVER help.

Yes Skip.
My opinion is based on a lot of reading. Of many doctrines.
Just as I know, from our years swapping thoughts, yours is.
Just differant concusions.
And yes.
Toward the point of the original post.
It seems to have been lost along the way somewhat.
Graham

It's difficult to love everyone and judge no one. But worth the effort, I am told.

If we loved everybody. ;ove would be worrth very little.
I would say impossible rather than difficult to do so.
Judging comes in degrees Richard.
It is pretty well the only way we can assess a person as to do we like them or do we not, and to what degree.
Both traits are present in all thinking organisms, and there for that purpose.
Graham

Obviously a LOT of people are VERY passionate about their opinions and beliefs here, so I don't think anyone is gonna change anyone ELSES mind, so it might just {maybe just a leeeetle bit} time to put this puppy to rest... then again, maybe not...so I'm going to bed {again!}

Richard I see you have edited your previous post and CHANGED THE PART where you called me a "dick". Thanks does that mean we are still friends.

Hey Herbie I am with you on this one. I cannot get my head around a few things.

1. You have to believe in god and jesus etc or you will not be saved and burn forever in hell regardless of how good a person you are. If you believe then you will be saved regardless of how bad a person you are.
2. It is ok for certain religious folk to castigate non believers or folk of another religion but nobody has the right to say anything bad about them or you will be dragged off and brutally murdered. Sorry that does not happen now unless you are Muslim. I should not have mentioned that. That only happened centuries ago and nobody of any importance got hurt.
3. How can you believe in something when you do not know it exists?
Years ago I watched a documentary about tribes in the deepest Amazon who had never met anyone from the outside world. They did not believe in any god, only nature and the forest. These heathens had no greed or malice. They did not steal or murder and looked after the sick elderly and all the kids who were embraced by the whole village. They were happy and content living a simple life with no arguments, politics or corruption. Then came missionaries. Within a few years their simple society had broken down. Theft, disease, greed, murder, envy, jealousy and hatred were introduced. The upside to this is now these people are saved and will not face eternal damnation because they are now believers and have become civilised.
Yep religion has done a lot for the world and we must all be grateful. How dare we criticise it.

Herbie, don't shoot the messenger, I didn't make the rules or write the bible, and I never mentioned you burning in hell, I believe there are degrees of punishment to suit the sin as there are degrees of rewards for good things done in your life. Sin can not enter into heaven, where it goes is God's choice. If man does not accept His offer of forgiveness for his sins, then he/she has to accept the punishment for those sins, what ever that may be. God wants no one to go to hell, but if they choose to, then their choice will be granted.

I was of your thinking for years, I was not bad like some people so I figured I had a good chance to go the heaven. But when I started to read the bible, I realized God doesn't do + and - calculating, it's either/or, you are for me or against me, no neutral ground, no sitting on the fence. So I choose to follow God and accept His plan of salvation, I don't force others to do so but I feel I am expected to tell others so they know the choice is there.

Yawn !

Time for a listen to Joe Wrabeck's "Bungee Jumpin' Jesus" , now there's a song for you, believers and non alike.

cheers, niteshift

Herbie,

Your post quoted me accurately but not completely, no criticism in this, but it left out the first part of my post, and may cause some to misunderstand.

I'm a believer.

I arrived at my belief not through argument, persuasion, or threat. I arrived at my belief through prayer at a time when there was loss and sorrow in my life. I was praying an "agnostic's prayer" and asking for help, I got it. Simple as that.

All people are believers. Some believe what they see, and are often wrong. Others believe what they are told, and are often wrong. Many believe what they think, and are also, often wrong.

A lot of people believe scientists. Scientists have been proven wrong, science is pretty good and logical, but folks make mistakes. Some folks believe politicians, I almost spit out my coffee writing that. People believe their friends, nice to do, but not always right. A lot believe their enemies, who may
be right more than one would suspect.

But still, we believe. That is, I believe, a consequence of memory and analysis. It allows us a "sixth" sense, the sense of rational prediction, which brought us to be able to grow food (try that, you other species!), and to adapt by will rather than by culling of the weak. So, this whole believing thing gets very personal, and very basic, and important. It's an instinct to believe your belief.

So y'all just believe what you want. Believe it or not, you have the power to change your beliefs if you want to, and no one else can make you believe what you don't want.

I would suggest, though, that y'all play nice. If one doesn't know how to play nice, I believe they are immature. If one does know how to play nice, but can't or won't, I believe they are weak. How's that for a belief?

Deleted my comment because it was away from the subject.
Graham

Everett I refuse to accept black and white. Nothing in this life is as clear cut. IF there is a god and it is a big IF surely he has some grey areas and some forgiveness and understanding and will make a calculated compassionate judgement and sentencing or punishment as in any respected court system.
Just as a matter of interest where do kids and babies fit in who die before they have a chance to sin. Or indeed very old folk who have had longer to amass a shedload? It does not make any sense to me. Possibly my cold hard logic is getting in the way of any blind faith I may have.

Mr. Dunbar. Please refrain from using tact and insight to obviate further argument.

I believe in Food Shelter and Clothing. If you have enough of these you are in pretty good shape. Food, now there's a subject you can get your teeth into!

I believe I will be in Nashville next week for a whole week.
I have 16 replacement vinyl windows to install in my house in Joelton
I believe if a few folks show up to help me it will be a lot easier, HA
And we can play music.
I'll even feed ya.
So there

Hey Bill I believe I would help ya if I was not so far away

Bill,

Give me a call, I love work, I can watch people work all day. Jim, just send us some good thoughts, I believe that will help.

Hey Mike send me some good thoughts I've got a room that needs decorating I believe that will help.