JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Mentor Questions Forum Cooking up a hit song

I always equate the music business with the restaurant business. Music, as an art, is like cooking. One blends sounds, the other blends taste.

If you want a hit restuarant, you can find the right location, pick out the prettiest tablecloths, buy a beautiful neon sign, take out a full page add in the magazine, hire attractive servers, and offer great prices. But if the food ain't good, you won't be a hit.

It's the same with music.

How do you know the food is great? Do you just taste it yourself? No, you get input from all kinds of people. Family, friends, people in the food business, experienced servers, experienced cooks, all of these go into buidling a menu.

It's the same with music.

If you want to write a hit song, first, you have to write a hit song.

What is a hit? Listen. Get Billboard. Listen to the top ten in several genres. Don't pre-judge the song because it's some style you don't like or because someone you don't like sang it. Especially, don't pre-judge a song simply because it is a "hit." Learn from every song. If you hear a song you don't like, and it is a hit, try to figure out why it's a hit. What was there about that song that made people buy it. Make no mistake, bad songs don't become big hits, just like bad food doesn't keep folke coming to a restaurant.

Now, maybe you don't like licorice, but they sure sell a lot of it. Is it because licorice got sold to folks by the big bad commercial candy business? Nope. It's because some folks love it. Pick the big hit you hate the most. Was it a hit because the bigwigs in the music business decided that would be the next hit? Nope, it's because people liked it. Can a major label get a song on the radio? Sure, but they can't make people buy it. Maybe a small radio hit gets "sold" to the public...but not a big hit, it gets bought.

So, what's on your menu?

Hi, Mike,

Food and hit songs...nice analogy! SO true...Some hit songs appeal to me, and toehrs just bore me to death. There's music for everyone, huh?!

There do seem to be some things that many hit songs have in common: a hook (instrumental or vocal) that is quite easy to repeat....sometimes...it is a theme that si easy to realate to...BUT...sometimes, I can't figure out why a particular song was promoted at all. It isn't always easy to get inside of the heads of some of the non-creative people who run publishing companies and record compnanies.

Emily

"It isn't always easy to get inside of the heads of some of the non-creative people who run publishing companies and record compnanies."

Well, it isn't even easy to get in their heads enough to know if they are creative or not. I'd imagine most folks would be surprised to find out how many music biz execs started out as writers and/or musicians.

While there is, I'm sure, some truth in it, I think ideas like this often become "conventional wisdom" from an attempt to look for excuses as to why songs a person doesn't like will become hits while their own songs don't. What if I assume that the vast majority of songs get promoted because someone believes in them? Then rather than fighting what "conventional wisdom" calls a cynical, manipulative, manufactured business, I begin to treat a biz exec the same as I would an audience member or a fan, by approaching them with confidence, and respecting them enough to accept their rejection. If a songwriter gets a rejection of their song, but an invitation to pitch more...they've won. As Dude would say, they're "on the bus."

Mike,
what you have pointed out holds a lot of weight and is a sound and solid answer to what makes a hit...but let me point out something...Programming...yes a word that is often looked over in this business. when a radio or televison signs on the first thing you hear the announcer say is "we begin our daily programming..." and when they sign off it is "we end our daily programming...". Don't get me wrong if a song has "no" merrit then it will probably never make "hit" status but there is alot to be said about selling a song on the radio...the amount that is played per day and when "the Rotation factor" and what is said about it by any popular announcer. These things are very important factors as to how the listening audience pre perceives the song and contributes greatly to how the song will go over. Even a great amount of negative publicity is better than no publicity and will make people buy it because of a we gotta see for ourselves influence that is generated by reverse psychology. Let me tell you of an experiment that I conducted in the late 80's that in my estimation controled weather...all of the stations in the area predicted rain in our listening area except for the one I was working at I went against the forcast and predicted sunshine...the result was rain all around except for our demographic coverage area and the rain pattern followed almost to the tee of the Arbitron listership graph! you may ask what has that got to do with record sales...nothing but it does have to do with mass conscience and what can be achieved by the power of suggestion. Sales people have known this for years as do preachers...e.i. you tell something to someone long enough and in enough density they will evetntually believe it and buy it or through conciencenous make it happen. I know this may seem metaphyscial but it happens and there is no other explaination for it other than good salesman ship.....just a thought. The power of T.V. and radio and newspaper is not a power to be looked at lightly...and promoters know this and any producer with any salt knows this also and when you hire them you are hiring their knowledge of who and when and how much they get your stuff to the programmers. There are exceptions to the rule and they are charismatic people that have an aura and energy about them that can never let them fail no matter what the obsticals...

Hi, Mike,

I like what you wrote about treating music execs well. GREAT points!!

I never meant to say that treating music biz VIP's rudely or unprofessionally was acceptable! I guess I was trying to express my frustration with the lack of subtance lyrically and musically in some- not all- hit songs.

I think that you are totally accurate in your statements about a song becoming successful because someone believed in it and promoted it. The huge hit, "You Light Up My Life" was supposedly turned down by dozens of publishers!

Like food, I guess there is something for everybody....

Emily

I agree with what you say, Byron, I'm just in favor of expecting sunshine while keeping an umbrella handy. If a songwriter gets a good song cut with a good artist giving a good performance, they have a better chance at getting good programming.

Concentrate on the highest possible quality of work. Expect, but do not assume, good of others and treat them accordingly unless and until they prove differently (again, treat and learn to regard the biz people as well as you do an "audience." If you have contempt for them...they'll "feel" it). When you and your team agree that you are writing hit quality material, then tell it to someone long enough that they believe you. But remember, it won't work if the food doesn't taste good. As you say, if a song has "no" merit, it probably won't become a "hit."

Hey Mike,

Would have to agree with most of the points you bring up. You must pay attention to every small detail, and do the best job possible. It's not necessarily going to make an ordinary song a massive hit, but it's nice to go back to the material a few years later, and it still sounds as good as when it was recorded. I guess that means that it is finished, and has no niggling "I should have done that better" elements.

Bring on the pepperoni, garlic, onions and all the spices of life.

cheers, niteshift

Well,
I have "cooked" up plenty of hit songs. The problem is getting the song to the right person at the right time.

Who knows what a hit song is. Back when the 45 record was king the A song that was being promoted as the hit song was replaced by the B side as the actual hit.

One time there was a song on the radio by a certain artist that I particularly liked. Don't know what happened but the song was replaced by another artist's recording that I didn't like nearly as well. Can't remember the song or artist but I suspect some chicerany.

I'm not sure every song playing on the radio is the best there is. As the final judge, I pass on a lot of it. If I'm not satisfied with my material, it isn't sent out.

And remember, just because it's great doesn't mean it'll get picked up by a publisher or artist or played on a radio show. All those other songs are competing for the ear of the decision-maker. Often that ear has a piece of the profit on one of those other, not-so-great songs, and that's the one he's going to promote. And, if he can shuffle yours down in the deck somewhere (a metaphor covering a whole lot of ways to do it) so his doesn't have to compete, he'll do that too. Create good product. Put it in the marketplace. Drive traffic to your store. If you're selling well on your own, the big boys will want a piece of your pie, and then you'll be in a position to bargain for the best deal you can get.

Hi Mike and fellow "posters:"

Great topic and the analogy is crem de la crem! Music is "food for the soul," isn't it? Byron and Ray bring another dimension to the discussion, though.

Doing one's best and treating folks with respect (until they prove to be unworthy) are also prime points.

Thanks, everyone for your shared wisdom.

All my best,

Dave Rice

Ray,

I agree with everything you say. Sure there's chicanery, but first there has to be a hit quality song with a hit quality performance. Now, it might not be better than another version, it might not be a song or performance that I like, but if folks don't like it, they won't buy it. What concerns me is the beginning songwriter who thinks it's ALL back room deals and politics, with poor quality songs getting "picked" to be hits because the "right" people wrote them or own them. Poor quality songs don't become hits. Maybe songs I don't like will become hits, but not poorly written songs.

My other concern is that this paradigm will lead the beginning songwriter to have contempt for the publishers, producers, and "gatekeepers" of the industry. If, as is true, the music business is very political, how can folks expect to excel with people they dislike? The reality is, most execs are interested in releasing songs that will become big hits...even classics...think about it, that's where the big money is.

Gary, yes folks work harder for a bigger share of the pie. That's why the best sales people work for commission. That's fine by me. I had a friend who named one of his publishing companies "Let's Split." It was Let's Split Publishing.

Good stuff, Emily, niteshift and Dave.

Mike

Someone, involved in music all his life, once told me "The best songs are not necessarily on the radio,and the songs on the radio are not necessarily the best songs".That says it all.

Everett,

I agree with that statement 100%.

But the topic is about "hit songs," songs that ARE played on the radio. John Prine, for example, writes some amazing songs that aren't played on the radio, but he also wrote some hits for Don Williams and others. Shel Silverstein, Kris Kristofferson, Cole Porter, Joni Mitchell, Bruce Springsteen, the Beatles, Neil Diamond, and many others, all wrote great songs that would never be on top forty radio, but obviously also many that are.

Again, I started this to encourage beginning songwriters to beware of developing cynical, contemptuous, adversarial attitudes toward the business aspect of music. The starving artist is not "great" because of the starving, but rather in spite of it. The successful artist is not inferior because of success. And, surprise of surprises, there are a lot of folks in the music business who know something about music.

All the Best,
Mike

It is generally known that those in a position to use your songs don't take un soliciated material because they are swamped with soliciated material.

However it is also generally known that if you keep pitching songs to those that take material from time to time your songs will be heard by more and more people. If you have something that has potential you may just find you have broken thru.

Mike I wasn't clear. It was the same song, two different Artists.

If you want to be sucessful you have to work at it. That means getting your songs ready to pitch. It means a good demo, it means registering copyrights, Today it means submitting on a CD. It means a basic cover letter. It means a good looking package that you can be proud of.

Don't be afraid to inovate from time to time. I use different color paper to print my lyric sheets. Now I add the Artists I am submitting for to the front of the envelope, all printed from my computer.

Good point, Mike:

It is so easy to get discouraged and bitter. Especially when one works so hard for absolutely "zilch" in the reward column. Keeping your spirits "up" while exposing your ego to an invisible entity is almost impossible after a while.

I find that it pays immense dividends to just withdraw for a few days, create new songs, relax, do something else you enjoy and then come back refreshed and ready for the "grind" of pitching songs again.

Ray is right! You just have to keep on researching and pitching with a plan in mind. Gimmicks, especially if they are original and can positively create interest, are certainly good tactics.

I have actually found a label (sorry, I can't divulge) that will at least save me the cost of the dreaded SASE and reply (with another pass, darn it!) via E-mail. I hope this trend continues with other labels, publishers, A&R Departments, etc. The cost of songwriting compared to other endeavors is not significant unless you begin to add up everything, postage, ink, gasoline, paper, blank CD's, envelopes, copyright applications, bubble wrap... etc, etc!

But I digress... sorry! Back to work. Got another song in the oven.

All my best,

Dave Rice

One more note. I used to send a SASE, (Self Addressed Stamped Envelope) for a reply for my submissions. It was very rare, practally non existant that any one would use them. So I stopped sending them. It costs more to pay for someone to return your material than it costs for a submission. They do have my Ph. No. and Address if they want to work with one of my songs.

Great ideas, Ray. And, yes, you were perfectly clear as usual, that's why I said "another version...or performance."

It's funny, Dave, folks will go to a casino and lose spin after spin on the slot machines just to go home and say what a good time they had, yet when they are competing in big time music against some of the world's finest commercial songwriters (a LOT worse odds than a slot machine), they get upset because they get a rejection. Most folks would be stunned if they found out how many rejections the hit writers get.

Mike, your comments are good to see as a reminder about the business. It is easy to get cynical, but it does not pay to offend those that can be an asset to you at some point in the future.

Thanks Jack,

To me it's not even a matter of offending them, it's the "vibe" or "attitude" someone has. Their body language, the words they choose, their facial expressions can all create an impression of someone who is adversarial, someone who does not like those with whom they are attempting to do business. It becomes a "self-fulfilling prophecy" that the big biz folk only do business with their friends...well...if you were in a business, let's say...oh...the restaurant business...and you needed to buy dairy products from a distributor. Well of course, you'd look at price and quality, but what if one distributor gave you the feeling that they didn't like you? And moreso, what if they were new in the business, without a track record? Would you choose them as your dairy distributor?

I have a few thoughts here..



Politics...Not just in the music biz but all business...
In all business it is who you know and who makes contact, and stays in contact.A big word CONTACT.

Songwriters need to know that the person you are "pitching" your songs to,is not the enemy!
We need songs. The producer needs songs.The artist needs songs.
We donot want to turn down your songs.
We turn down the songs because they are not waht we are looking for.
what we are looking for is dictated by the market , and you have to be ahead of that curve.
Most writers are not ahead ,they are behind.

As a publisher I needed songs ,that was how I made my living, thats how I got paid. It is not a lark thinking I'll be a publisher or a producer, for ten minutes. Think about it.We need that great song.We may miss a few of them. I know how that works.I pitched more than a few of them before anyone "picked" up on it.

The biggest fault I found with writers, is never following up. By that I mean ...I turn down your song, it is clear that I listened, and I asked to hear more songs, when the writer felt they had something.
Never heard from them again.

Or I would hear the song(s), and give my professional opinion of the song , good bad or average...
Most songs are average, that isnt good enough for a publisher to "pitch".The writer would never come back again.

Some writers over the years never, ever grew...
They just kept writing the same song over and over again.
Some writers are trapped in a time warp.

Then you have writers who "get it".Or at least part of it..They make a decent demo that "fits" the song.
Those writers have a head start over all the rest.

Long distance...I had dozens of songs recorded through the mail,over the years. Some of those folks I had never met ever in my life...
It was the song.

I would put out the word about a certain project I might be dealing with, and needed "this" kind of song...
I would get everthing except that kind of song.Pay attention.

I just posted about cold calling in another thread...
Dont just sit there ,do something....
All that can happen is they tell you to get lost,they will not remember your name.

I just had a client who assured me she was ready as a writer. I listened to 10 songs...She is very typical of many writers...THe chords and melodys were fine...pretty standard fare..
The lyrics sucked big time over and over...

My point here,also is, many writers fail in the lyric department.
In all the years that I pitched songs ,I was never ,ever turned down because of the chords or melody, it was the words,the LYRIC..

Many of writers compose really good to great melodies..cool ,but manytimes those same writers wouldnt know a good lyric from trash,to great.

On another note:::Iam always baffled by song writers ...
They seem to want to do everything on the cheap, spend not one dime on their career.
Actors do it..Painters do it..Sculptors do it...Singers do it ...
All the arts do it...they go to school, to classes ,they study what the masters have to say , they study under a mentor, they learn what came before them...and all these folks charge...and the artist learns the craft.The wrongs the rights and they suffer the tonque lashings of the "teacher" , because it is for their own greater good.
Every teacher , every mentor wants you to be a success!

The sad reality is most songwriters are learning very little about the craft.
Writers complain a lot, so do all artists , no matter the art form.
Part of that complaint is not getting cuts, or sales.
The truth here, is that pitching songs, is an art and a craft as well.A few writers do it well.
I dont think most song writers make that connection.

Dude...

http://songconsultant.com

Good stuff here.

on unsolicited material...I was in a publisher office one time and he had manila envalops piled up to the ceiling on one whole wall in his office. if you listen to American Idol you hear a lot of people try out who are not no good. they think they are but the rest of the world except family think they are not good enuf. you also go to soundclick and hear lots of folks who think they are good but they are not good enuf for the radio or records. However anybody who can write a song at all could strike gold at any time by writing one classic out of the 5000 total they wrote. gone with the wind was that woman's first and maybe only book.

i don't think it's always great songs that are hits. i used to like hey jude said it was my favrit song. then i really listened. not much to it really. most of it is the na na chant we can all sing along to. but i liked it back then when i was young. it might have been peer pressure and it was you know DA BEETLES!!! i still think revulution and long winding road are great.

the guy with the foot picture said John Prine, for example, writes some amazing songs that aren't played on the radio

If you ask do I like Prine songs I would say not very many that I've heard. but the foot guy was right. Prine is a good writer. I wouldn't buy his stuff but I would buy statler brothers because I love the songs Harold and Don and Lew and sometimes Jimmy wrote.

The foot guy also said Again, I started this to encourage beginning songwriters to beware of developing cynical, contemptuous, adversarial attitudes toward the business aspect of music. The starving artist is not "great" because of the starving, but rather in spite of it.

I agree again. Myspace and the internet might change the music world but it will probably remain a business. it's diffrent than it used to be but good writers who don't perform will always be needed for it to survive and writers who don't perform will always need publishers in some fashions. or at least people who do the jobs done currently done by the ones we call publishers.

i agree with the dude mclean guy to. if they hear a good song they'll remember but most songs are average. a lot of songs on the internet are okay to listen to but comparing the writer to a major professional writer is like comparing the value of cubic zirconia to a diamond. or like comparing a Gorton's fish stick to a poached salmon prepared by an wolfgang puck.

Hi Gang:

As always "Foot Man," you speak mountains of truth.

Dude, I agree with most of what you said but I need clarification on the bit about songwriters not being willing to spend money. For my part, I spend just about all I can afford. (Retired and on a severe budget!) I do spend lots on blank CD's, Ink for my hungry printers, Postage for endless mailings, Subscription to a crappy, dial-up service, paper to print lyrics on, and most of all, my time... which at one time was significantly more valuable per hour than it is now.

To my perspective, it appears that just about everybody even vaguely associated with the "biz" seems to have a hand reaching out for the nickels and dimes the poor songwriters have left after they pay for just about everything else. When I was VP/GM at a prestigious design and build firm, we operated our business on investment risk analysis versus the need to cover our overhead expenses.

If I were to apply investment risk analysis to songwriting, I'd close down my operation today. In the end, I suppose it's all about faith in one's eventual success, coupled with pride and desire to create something that will be here long after we are dead and buried.

Can you be more specific about your statement?

Siam, welcome to JPF. I don't recall seeing your posts here before but I welcome your thoughts and humor. (Are you from Siam?) (Let's see, they call it Myanmar today, don't they?)

All my best,

Dave Rice

I've gotta agree with Dave, Dude. I think the Nashville economy would take a huge hit if it wasn't for songwriters doing demos and spending money at the seminars, clubs, hotels and restaurants when we come to town.

Well,
The BIGGEST thing I have with those seeking material is they won't spend a dime sending a response back to the writer. It costs me about $7.00 dollars to send out a submission. You would think a Producer/Artist/Publisher would spend $.50 to respond to every writer that sends them songs. No, the songwriter is just so much fodder not worth the time and effort. They want the songwriter to spend all the money and split the profits if they are sucessful with a writer's song. Writing a good song doesn't just happen. And a good song doesn't come along every day.

Thanks Dude. Actually reading your views from a "publisher perspective" was encouraging. I liked the part "we need songs"! It's not all for naught. What I tell myself when I feel that first negative vibe coming is "a day is 24 hours long and a song is generally 3 minutes long and of course there are the necessary commercials, BUT they still need alot of those 3 minute songs to fill the airwaves" and by gosh I'm gonna offer some.

I agree with Ray.I gave up pitching to publishers,even though I had a few songs signed but never cut,or cut by an inhouse artist, just to fulfill a clause in the contract and have claim on the song.I started pitching just to artist looking for songs,had more success that way,plus I held onto the publishing. Not all artist give you feedback,some do and say they are going to record some of the songs,but then you never hear from them again.

When you find a publisher with an open door policy,you wonder are they any good at publishing or just playing a game,just hoping to latch onto a great song.How much do they pitch your song?Do they have any serious contacts?The big name publishers that you know are serious,have their doors so tightly closed to new writer that you'd need dynamite to open it.

Hmmm... interesting observation, Everett. I also like Ray's idea of not enclosing the SASE. He's right, 'cause if they want your song, provided you include an address and phone number, etc. in your cover letter and/or on the face of your CD, they'll respond.

Now if we can just find somebody selling keys to the back door in Nashville.

All my best,

Dave Rice

Mike, as always you bring really smart advice to the table:))

Dude, like Lynn I am always encouraged by anything you post!

I love your no-nonsense approach to it all.
This is a great reminder for all of us.

"Songwriters, we are not your Enemy"

"Every teacher , every mentor wants you to be a success!"

Another great reminder:)))

Spoken like a true mentor!
Thanks again Dude and Mike, looking forward to your next one:)Dana

Mike, I agree completely.

My mother (who has written, published, and sold some of her songs) told me when I first started wanting to write and play music, that to be successful in music you have to know a few things.

1. What has been done
2. What is being Done
3. What worked
4. What worked
5. And most important..What has NOT been done yet.

Of course..she imparted other invaluable information to me as well but that is another topic...except one.

NEVER sell your rights to your song.

Thanks for the kind words...

It all comes down to money!!!!

One of you said it only costs the publisher or whoever .50 cents to mail etc...And there is 24 hours in a day and a song is 3 minutes...

Lets look at this :::

At one time I was recieving about 200 to 300 tapes A WEEK..
My sked was this...
I took one day to just listen to songs..
Did you ever try to open up some of these packages?..I wanted to take my gun and blast the suckers open..That was the first 3 minutes.
Slam the cd/tape in the player,look at the lyric...pull the cd out, return it to the package.
All in all about 5 to 7 minutes...Do that for an hour.
Thats about 7 to 10 packages an hour..so you could go through 15 an hour and that would still be only about 70 packages or so...Burn out time...But you all want your song heard.
I dont think I ever made it through 70 packages in a day.
Now as for returning ...If no SASE was included I didnt send it back...That is not our problem or part of our overhead.Times that 50 cents and more by 200+ a week. ...

Back to listening::: Sometimes 3 or more songs are on the cd...
Granted for the most part I never listened past the first chorus, if the song didnt grab me by then it wasnt going to.

I found many songs that were in mail and got cut...
As a publisher I had "signed writers" ...but I needed more than they could provide...It was just the odds with those writers were better than what you find in the mail.

Most of time the songs were bad to awful...Then some were ok to average...every once in while ....wham...ohmygod...did ya hear that...You put it to one side ...you play it a little later...you play it the next day and the next...call the writer..and do a deal ...
did all of those songs get cut NO... did some of them get cut YES..

I listened to songs at odd moments during the day and the evening..Always hoping for one shine...

the writers who had submitted songs before, and got my attention were always listened to first.

A great part of a publishers life is on the phone...Talking with writers...With producers , with managers, lawyers,artists,record labels etc.. ...all dealing with and concerning a song, maybe your song..
Add that to administration duties, "meetings" at some point, with all the above mentioned, and you have a very busy person,if they are doing their job right.
We have not even gone into travel,making demos,going to clubs , and so on.
Do you know who takes many new acts to a record label?...Publishers...

Many times I was in the office at 8am and didnt leave until 9pm...

Many publishers work 6 and 7 days a week..and they work long hours..

Publishers are cheap,as in frugal ...they operate cheap as they can...They get no money until after the song is cut, put out and sells.Key word "sells" and sells enough to make some money to keep the publishing operation going.
Yes huge publishers are making money on the catalog..but they have to bring in new all the time.
So the publisher is always working on the come..it aint magic.
It is economics.

The Nashville economy wouldnt be hurt if all the demo studios shut down at once..Too many home studios now..
The amount of money songwrters drop in Nashville is a drop in the bucket.And it get rid of the evil doers who rip the writers.

The songwriter isnt so much fodder as Ray said...almost though...
Any publisher will burn up the phone getting to you When He Hears A SONG He Can USE.
Until that point, you are not a "priority"..
When you are you will know it.

When I stated that writers do not spend money, I didnt mean sending out your packages, and making demos.
I meant with education and workshops and seminars etc.Honing your craft, and learning the business.
The whole industry is inter-related...
A for instance, most of you do not know the inner workings of any aspect, of the business you want to a part of.
The info is out there and you have this forum to discuss it in...

OK ,this post is long enough...

I hope I didnt confuse anyone ...I am not stepping on your toes , but Im trying to get to understand the biz you are trying to crack...More later if you want it.

Dude...


http://songconsultant.com

Dude:

Yes, your post was long enough... and extremely informative. Most of us (songwriters) are so wrapped up with what we do creatively, and then trying to get somebody to listen, we never get to see or understand the perspective of the publisher, label, manager, etc.

This one post, as far as I'm concerned, is a real eye opener. You have really clarified things for us today, my friend.

It sounds like its okay to send a CD, Lyric Sheet and Cover letter without the obligatory SASE, as long as the senders' name, address and phone number are clearly displayed on all of the contents of the envelope. That's money we don't have to spend 'cause if the publisher/recipient likes what they hear, they will be in touch anyway. If they don't, at least the postage on the SASE is not wasted. The downside is that you never know your package was received if you don't use the SASE method or if the publisher won't respond to an E-mail address. Some do these days, thank goodness.

Thanks again for taking the trouble to explain that perspective.

All my best,

Dave Rice

More Please!!!

In keeping w/"The Foot's" Cooking/Music metaphor.

A Song Recipe:

Ingredients:
One freshly picked hook
One well done lyric w/a dash of rhymes
One tasty melody
One pinch of bridge (season to taste)
One teaspoon of tag (optional)

Stir and blend together and simmer over warm heat (radiating from the heart) and cook until done, well done that is!! Serve with a smile!

Mike,
thanks for starting this thread. And thanks to Dude for his additional perspective.

So if I get this right;

we're all in this together looking for what will sell.

I'm cool with that. First I gotta learn to write better and understand what sells and what ain't been done yet(thanks Raymond).

You gentlemen are worthy of the mentor tag.

John

I'm kinda cynical, but I think the masses {asses} will buy ANYTHING if they're beat over the head with it enough. How else do you explain the appeal of Clear Channel?

Great topic, Mike... keep 'em coming.
I haven't read every single entry on here yet, but for now I just want to say a couple of things.. First, I'm not a professional publisher, but I hear lots of songs every day... to me, it's not just the lyric that is hurting, it's the music and melodies too. I just listened to a song from a guy on one of these music sites, and to me he is a very decent writer...but his melodies/music that he gets (he collaborates) are awful for the most part.. It ALL has to be there.. lyric and music.
Second, Raymond said "Most important.. what has NOT been done yet." I'd like to know this myself.. I don't know if this "not been done" thing exists.

~~Shelia

www.sheliaquattlebaum.blogspot.com
www.gmia.org

Hello Ray

While I understand your sentiment I am afraid I don't agree. In the entertainment biz whether a writer of a performer you must spend money to make money.

As an actor one has to get head shots. Those are hugely expensive and most of the time it's not like getting reprints from walmart when you need new ones(unless you use walmart lol.)

Peformers tour and do get paid for gigging. However in the beginning they rarely break even when you count gas motel an such.

Book Writers submit endless manuscripts to publishing firms after spending up to a year writing. Those literal books cost much more to send usually than a cd some cover art and such. Plus the amount of the material is much more.

I could go on and on but I won't. One last point I will make is it costs 30 dollars (not counting shipping and such) To submit a song to a contest. In that contest your song has no better chance of getting made and played than a direct submission. You eliminate the middle man by direct submissions saving tons of money.

Just remember the greats had to pay their dues to get there no one paid their way so we can't expect any different.
Sincerely
Derek Hines

Derek,
If you are addressing me I'm not sure what you are talking about. Perhaps if you were to go point by point I, (or others) could address them, if they have not already been addressed.

From the distant past I have heard things such as: A FOOL AND HIS MONEY ARE SOON PARTED. In other words, no one is looking out for you so you had better look out for yourself.

Most business's know you have to spend money to make money. Don't remember addressing that but do agree with it for the most part.

Contests. If you are paying to enter it is usually a money maker for the people running the contest but mostly a waste of money for the entrant. From all the posts here, no one as far as I know has ever placed a song from winning a contest.

However welcome to the JPF boards. If you stay an enlighting education is in store for you. I started writing songs in the early 60's and learning about the music business, as well as too many other things to post here.

Good luck in your songwriting.

Hi Derek,

I agree that you have to spend money to make money, but it's very easy to spend money that either has no chance of making any money, or will not make enough money to justify the expenditure.

For example, I see that you're a correctional officer, (thanks for your work, btw, my son's majoring in Criminal Justice). Let's say you have to pay for your own range ammunition over certain amount, depending on your department policy. So you go every day before or after work and fire two hundred rounds of .40. Pretty soon, you'll be going broke.

That's the concern I have for songwriters. They can enter five contests a month, fifteen songs each, and they'll go broke...might win third place, a magazine subscription and a box of guitar strings.

Read Dude's post again. It's not just spending money, it's studying your needs, then applying the money in the right place. If you're not writing class A songs, then you need to spend money on education, not demos. If you're getting a lot of indie cuts and some major nibbles, then you need to spend money more on demos than education.

Spend, but spend smart.

Mike

I agree with Mike-the-Foot with respect to contrests. A lot of contests look like they're being run for the benefot of the contest-runners. It's perhaps worthwhile to read the rather extensive threads about the American Idol song contest earlier this year, which a lot of us entered.

I target my efforts these days to contests I think I have a decent chance of winning. I budget for it, too. This year, I planned on entering two song contests, actually entered four (including the american Idol one), won 1st place in one and honorable mention in another. So it weren't that bad.

Joe

Hmmm...Any fool can go into a studio and spend money on a song...

First you should ask yourself a few questions.

1. Who would record this song
2. Why would they record this song

Being objective about your own work is a trap for most writers..For the most part they just are not good at it.

If you answer number 1. with, " Well almost any one could record this song" Really?...So you are going into the studio with no idea who could record this song?...Why would you do that?
Ego?...Or it will sound better once I make a demo, then I will decide who "could" record the song.You need a plan of action, that will help drive the direction of the demo.

Number 2. This is the million dollar question ...the answer is not " Because IF the "hot act" of the week cuts it ,then it will be a hit" NOT Really...Hot acts, many times, the follow up is a bomb...If it was your song then it proves my point, and what I have stated for the last 40 years " A hit song doesnt care who sings it"...But it has to be a potential hit.
So why would they cut your song?,what makes it so special , so great , so original, so wonderful that they cannot resist cutting the song?...Ask yourself those questions in the cold hard light of day , about your song.

Songs must hold up over and over again, replay replay replay...
I used to listen to songs that I was working with over and over again, making sure they held up ...

Most songwriters think the last song they wrote is the best song they have created...That is not a good measuring stick.

It pays to be hard on yourself...Being objective is a tough job.

Contests... A contest with songs::: You are up against only the songs in this contest, this monly proves that maybe your song is as good or better than the other songs entered in the contest.

In the real world of getting your songs recorded it doesnt really mean much..The best you can hope for is that a professional in the biz will hear your song and maybemightcouldbe contact you.

Many years ago there was a song contest called "The American Song Festival" It is long since defucnt...But the point is they had real pros judging the songs , the songs were heard at least 3 different times by different folks in the biz...I found songs through them, and got some of those songs recorded. So sometimes that might happen...in any contest...

Dude...

http://songconsultant.com

GREAT Insight, Dude..& THANKS for starting this Thread, Mike!

Roy, I well-remember some (Singer-Songwriter?) gettin' Airplay on "I Love My Truck"....UNTIL Glen Campbell's Version started gettin' around. Then ya never heard the S-S's Version AGAIN.

Also remember hearin' from an Industry-Insider how a (Shall-remain Nameless) Big Gal Country Star's Latest got TONS of Airplay after POUNDS of Cocaine graced the DJ's Desk.

So..it's a Tough Biz to break into (I almost said Crack..heh!) but there ARE Dues to be Paid. $7-a-shot is pretty small potatoes compared to what ya might get back, when ya DO have that Hit. WHY want your Material "Returned"...when MAYBE they'll file it until it's WHAT THEY WANT & you'll get that Email or Call you been waiting for? Ya never know..it DOES happen!

Only Free Advice I can pass along that I've learned The Hard Way:
"Write for NEXT Year's Market"...('cuz it usually TAKES a Year to Cut it, Package, & Market it.)

Best of Luck,
Stan