JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum The Most Important Film In American History? Maybe

It all come down to greed and politics.It does not matter how many political parties any country has,there is always an unseen, behind the scene extra party that never runs for office but controls the party that does get elected.They are the billionairs that owns the richest companies in whatever country.They tell the government in power what they can and can not do,based on how it will affect their businesses.If a government does not tow the line,they will not be in power long, these billionairs can buy any party into office or out of office. These parties know this,so they do what they are told, they like the power that they think they have,or we think they have.Greed drive these companies,we are just pawns,necessary to buy their products to make them ever richer.Every form of government has it's flaws,even elected governments,they need money to get elected,where does that money come from?Mostly from big business.

I agree that there are many problems with the way our health care industry is set up, including the hand that the government takes in it. These inequities have been well stated in this thread, both by people who have seen and those who have not seen the movie (I have not, but am willing to give it a look, despite Moore's earlier work).

I would like to take issue with the notion that everyone "deserves" health care. The earliest expression of this by an elected US official (as far as I know) was by President Franklin D. Roosevelt in an address to Congress on January 6, 1941. In it he advocated "Four Freedoms." The first two have to do with speech and worship. Look at the last two below:

"The third is freedom from want -- which, translated into world terms, means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants -- everywhere in the world.

"The fourth is freedom from fear -- which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor-- anywhere in the world."

The way I see it, our Constitution was not intended to guarantee freedoms number three and four. Nor do I think it possible for a government to do so.

Some people think music should be free - and then act on that assumption by taking it without contributing.

We do have the freedom to pursue happiness. That may include, as Jody has pointed out, investigation into alternative forms of treatment that do not rely on drugs. How did the AMA get such a monopoly in so many areas? Why did Chiropractors and Acupuncturists, etc. have to suffer from falsehoods and persecution? I hope the film addresses these questions.

You are right on Brian.
I would much rather discuss a topic and try to figure out how to fix it than sit and argue about it's causes.
So far no one has said anything about my previos post on France.
Much of this topic is about money. How much people make, how much insurance costs, etc. So lets look at the French system and see how we compare.

http://www.frenchentree.com/fe-health/

If I am reading it correctly My wife would have had about $10,000 per year withheld. When I was still working I would have had about $7,000 a year witheld for a total of $17,000 for the social health care system in France(I'm not sure what else this covers yet). We would still need a supplemental insurance to cover the things the plan does not pay (their are many medicines it does not pay for) and we would also have a copay.

I haven't seen Sicko. Does it mention this? Maybe I'm going to have to see this movie.

Compare those costs to this.
In another post Christine complained bitterly that it would cost her about $800 (9600 a year) a month for Health insurance. However Ben said he paid about $285 per month or $3400.

Now in Jody's case I wouldn't know. He said he doesn't have insurance because he can't afford it. That is a problem. Of course if he lived in France he would not have a choice in the matter. They would make him afford it. They would take twenty percent of his (gross)income whether he likes it or not.

Like Jody, (how old are you Jody?) Until I was 58 years old I was in great health as well. Low Blood pressure, low cholesterol, when I would go in for a Physical every couple years the Doc always said I was in Great shape. Then I got old. I had some issues, but I learned to live with them. They were not life threatening. Then I got cancer.
Were it not for my wifes insurance I woulda been in a pickle.
I could have opted for the "Natural Cures" that are promoted by the let nature cure you folks but infortunately my extensive research determined that the cancer killed most of those folks. I chose the most modern up to date treatment I could find. It wasn't in France either. It was right here in America.

Jody you made a comment about my reference to Confidentiality. There are laws in this country about divulging facts about someones health issues. That is what I was referring to. I simply cannot talk about specific things I know about, it is nothing sinister.

Hi Steve
You asked why Chiropracters have such an undeserved reputation.

well, my brother went to one for a couple weeks because his back was hurting. It kept getting worse. the Chiropracter kept squeezing and twisting and doing all sorts of wonderful things.
Then my brother ended up in the intensive care facility with a cyst in his kidney that the Chiropractor managed to rupture. My brother almost died from it.
I'm not saying they are not good for some things but I would say be very careful.

Actually Moore does address the French tax issue. In fact, he goes and visits a middle class French family and they talk about how much they make and what their style of living is based on the very high tax rate. I give him credit for addressing that issue. He didn't hide from it. I thought the interesting thing was that he didn't endorse a specific countries plan. He didn't suggest than all of them are perfect. But he DID debunk the mythology that the care is terrible, the waits are terrible etc. Are there problems everywhere? Yes. When humans are involved, bad things will ALWAYS happen. Do most people in the US get fantastic health care? Yes. But do millions get no care at all in the richest country in the world? Yes. And it's not always just the "poor" and out of work that don't have health care. Jody works all the time and he has none. I worked as hard as anyone I know for 10 years with no health care and no options to get it for ANY amount of money. I was flat out told NO... NO... NO.... I have several "pre-existing" health issues and my only way of getting health care is to be in a group plan that has to take everyone period. If a company like my wife's can offer insurance to cover even me, then I have to think it's possible to offer ALL humans in the US that same level of coverage. To me it's pretty simple. One giant insurance plan for everyone so that all the risks are spread out over everyone. People like you Bill who have no health care problems for many years help to balance those of us not so lucky. Just as I would want the police to help even the poorest out of work person from being assaulted or murdered, I want that same person to have health care so they aren't left to suffer and die. For me it's really that simple.

Brian

I'm not a big fan of Michael Moore. Personally, I thought his treatment of Charleton Heston, who was well down the Alzheimers road at the time, was shameful in "Bowling for Columbine". I might accept that Mr. Heston was deserving of a tough interview but kicking a man when he is sick just isn't classy...

But I do think we need people like Michael Moore around....

Saturday was an interesting evening, as I watched a repeat of the Larry King interview with Beatles and Beatles' wives and then a repeat of the interview with Michael Moore.

I was impressed.....

He brought up the point that I have long believed - there should not be a profit industry in the health industry. He made the point very effectively: "What if a fireman had to call an insurance agent to ask if it was okay to put out your house fire?"

I guess I think capitalism is one of the better systems, as it motivates individual accomplishment. But I have to think that there are SOME things that should be run by non-profit or the government. Health care is certainly one of them....

Scott

I've always thought it was an insult to all doctors, nurses and medical researchers to suggest that they'd stop doing their work if they couldn't get maximum profits from it. Moore interviews a General Practioner (aka Family Doctor) who works in the UK and he makes 200K a year. He lives in a great house, drives a luxury car, and is clearly "wealthy" in the UK. The point being that Doctors deserve to be well paid and can be in an open free system. He said that if he wanted to own 4 hours, 4 luxury cars and a lot more toys, then he'd have to move to America, but that he was certainly happy with his life in the UK.

But do we really think people passionate about curing illnesses wouldn't do that same work regardless? The truth is many of the best minds don't get to keep the money from their work.. the venture capital people do. So I feel those same researchers would do the same work under and system because they are trying to save lives and cure illness, not raise stock prices.

Brian

The real interesting point brought up in that interview was the fact that as a doctor, he got paid more when he fixed their ailments and got them back to optimal health.

The other interview that was surprising was the cancer survivor that was given time to recover and get back to optimal health. While, I'm sure that was a great example, it was nice to see someone getting the time they needed to get their head together.

Jody

Hey Brian
There has been a lot of self criticism of our benefits and health system recently.
People say that it is not working as it used to and to a certain degree they are right. With a growing population and people living longer the strain is beginning to tell. Our pension system is all but bankrupt.
Here is a brief outline as to how it works in theory anyway.
Our NHS (NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE) is based on need not ability to pay. Every working person in this country pays (compulsory) income tax and National insurance contributions. This huge NATIONAL INSURANCE pot is divided into various mini pots. The politicians decide the contribution levels and percentages as to what goes where. Each service eg Health, social security, disability benefits, pensions etc. has it's own percentage of the large pot.
With regards to the Health service, all doctors and health workers, hospitals and treatment costs are paid for from this pot. Each area has it's own Health Board responsible for it's own admin. All of these services are totally free to the user and are paid for from the pot. There are some small charges that patients have to pay like eyetests, prescription and dental charges but these are just token charges and do not reflect the actual costs. People on low incomes or benefits do not have to pay these charges.
For those who want to jump the queue or seek private care there is that option but they still have to pay N.I. contributions.
The government recently got it's sums wrong and not enough Doctors went through training so there is shortages throughout the UK. This has led to foreign imports. The problems are obvious, language barriers, different practice atandards, under qualified, inexperience.
There is an acute shortage of NHS dentists. The politicians tried to change the CONTRACT terms and conditions that the NHS dentists operate under. There was a huge protest and most resigned and opened "private practices" In a lot of areas in the UK YOU CANNOT GET A dentist without going private and paying through the nose.

To sum up we have a system that at the moment requires fixing but does work. It is infinately better that the US system of who pays wins. IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD THE TREATMENT OR INSURANCES YOU DIE.
This is hardly a good advert for the best country in the world. I tried to keep my explanation as short and to the point as possible as it is a very complex subject and I am no expert. If anybody needs any more info just ask and I will try to find out.

'Sicko': Heavily Doctored, By Kurt Loder

http://www.mtv.com/movies/news/articles/1563758/story.jhtml

I read the article. Most of the points were the same things I thought as I watched. However, Moore did NOT endorse or even suggest we follow ANY other countries systems. He simply showed that there are other ways to approach and it he suggested we take the best ideas to help us revamp our own system. That to me is entirely rational, even if everything said in that article is true. What I love about this movie is that I hope it actually causes people in the US to stop talking about Paris Hilton and start giving a [naughty word removed] that many people are suffering literally right in our own hometowns no matter where we live.

And in response to the Steve D's points: Fear: There is nothing more fearful than knowing your health is deteriorating (or worse.. your childs or spouses or parents) and you don't have the money to do anything about it. THAT is fear. A type I hope the rest of you don't have to face. But I've sure faced it.

Brian

I'm not nearly as old as you Bill. I don't have health insurance for the fact that I'm self employed and a full time musician. I tried having health insurance when I first started out a few years ago. I bought good insurance because I wanted to be able to choose whom I wanted to see. Then my rates kept going up and up and up and up despite the fact I had never seen any doctor while I was covered. Then I started getting double billed and efforts to prevent it were so maddening that I had to change bank accounts and forcefully prevent them from taking money so they'd get the hint. It left me with such a bad experience that I went without it.

Bill, my concept of let nature cure you and what my first hand experience is with what I'm talking about is most likely not the same as yours. Since you mention cancer lets start there. Are you aware that the cause of cancer was determined by Dr. Otto Warburg? He was awarded the Nobel Prize for figuring it out in 1931. Now do you also know that someone figured out how to cure cancer? Guess who? That's right Dr. Otto Warburg and he won the Nobel Prize again for that solution in 1944. The gist of his cure was to root out the cause. Guess what the primary cause is: lack of oxygen in the affected cells.

What's sad is that information like this is out there and yet we're fed things in school like there is no cause to cancer, or that they're still looking for a cure. It's already been found, but if you knew how simple it was, you couldn't be sold that latest high tech method that involves huge profit for the company that created it.

As I said, I've seen first hand and second hand what can be done without drugs, without radical forms of radiation and chemicals. I learned through a friend of mine whom I've known for a long time. He's an older gentleman like you Bill. He had Rheumatoid Arthritis. I knew him before he had it. I saw what it did to him. Froze him solid and put him in bed for months, it was horrible to watch. The doctors tried everything they were taught to try, not a single drug worked. Then his wife heard about bee sting therapy. At that point he was willing to try anything. The bee stinging got him out of bed (just thinking about how that sounds makes me laugh, who wouldn't get out of bed if they were being stung by bees). That was not the cure, but it did get him mobile. He was so excited he showed me how he did it. Quite a sight to see someone sting themselves on purpose.

Then came a radical change. I had been gone on the road for a little while and when I got back it was like a whole new person took his place. This is when I learned about something called Ozone Therapy. He started telling me all this stuff that made my head spin and of course negated all the years of things I'd been told about our body's such as no cure for things like cancer, viruses and certain bacteria. He learned about it from a friend of his who had cancer. Key word there, HAD. A kind that normally is very difficult to survive. That friend of his tried the modern methods and they didn't work. That friend of his is still alive today and very healthy because of Ozone. My friend is now more energetic and more alive than before I met him, he's certainly not like his age and to know him now you'd never know that he had been given a very short time to live.

While I've never had cancer. I had chronic fatigue. I had learned to just deal with it as there was no cure, etc. So I did some research along with all the things my friend told me and found that it was something I should look into. I had to watch someone else do Ozone before I realized it was possible to do it as it was being suggested. I had to unlearn things I've been taught that aren't always true, but are in one facet (I sound like Ben Kenobi in Star Wars VI), thus it's one version of the truth and I have found another that makes more sense. Seeing that, I tried it for myself. Now I no longer have chronic fatigue. In fact there a few residual things I don't have anymore either, like a huge wart that covered my entire right elbow.

I've seen other people it's helped beyond my friend Gary. It's helped me and if you're willing to unlearn or expand upon some of the half truths we're all taught in this country it can likely help you too. It's a tough thing to overcome, it's hard to think that doctors wouldn't know this. I almost liken it to the Matrix and being awakened from the cocoon. If you'd like to know more you can certainly ask me questions and I will answer them to the best of my ability.

One thing I won't do is force it down someone's throat. They need to make the decision to trust something that isn't backed by big money. I will put it out there for them to research for themselves. Remember the School House Rock stuff? Knowledge is Power!

Jody

p.s. - remember I still want the high tech surgery to be around. That is something western medicine is good for. Especially if I tear a ligament, a muscle, lose a limb, or break a bone.

Here's a press release from one positive new development. I have used one of these on the last Roadtrip. I had Strep Throat on a weekend and the emergency clinics were closed and my option was the emergency room (which would have cost a fortunate being out of market and without prior authorization) or paying 10 dollars for treatment at this place. (that was my co-pay and they had a special where it was 50% off the co-pay).
----------------------------------------------------------
MINNEAPOLIS, July 2, 2007 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ -- Retail-based health care provider MinuteClinic has received the 2007 Connecticut Quality Improvement Award's entry level CQIA Innovation Prize for bringing more affordable, convenient and accessible health care solutions into consumers' daily lives. The Connecticut Quality Improvement Award is the oldest state-level award in America that uses the Malcolm Baldrige National Quality Award criteria for performance excellence.

The CQIA Innovation Prize recognizes accomplishments during the first stages of the quality journey for all organizations located in Connecticut. It is meant to stimulate interest in organizations to implement quality while fostering recognition of innovative improvements.

Past winners of the prestigious CQIA awards include Pfizer, Inc., MassMutual Financial Group, Honeywell Life Safety and Pratt & Whitney.

MinuteClinic is the pioneer and largest provider of retail-based health care centers in the United States with locations in 20 states. MinuteClinic opened its first locations in Connecticut in 2006. Presently, there are seven MinuteClinic health care centers in the Hartford metropolitan area, Stamford and Southbury. All are located in CVS/pharmacy stores. MinuteClinic hopes to add up to a dozen more locations in Connecticut by the end of the year.

"MinuteClinic is an example of how creativity and innovation can be brought to our struggling health care system to affect change and make basic care more accessible and affordable for today's consumer," said Michael C. Howe, MinuteClinic chief executive officer. "We are extremely proud of this recognition which validates our efforts to foster a new patient-centered approach to health care delivery."

MinuteClinic health care centers are staffed by masters-prepared, board-certified nurse practitioners and physician assistants who specialize in family health care and are trained to diagnose and treat patients for common illnesses such as strep throat and ear, eye, sinus, bladder and bronchial infections. MinuteClinic also offers common vaccinations, such as influenza, tetanus, MMR, and Hepatitis A & B. Practitioners work in collaboration with physicians and may prescribe medication when it is part of the treatment plan.

MinuteClinic health care centers are open seven days a week, no appointment needs to be made in advance and visits typically take 10-15 minutes.

MinuteClinic practitioners utilize nationally recognized evidence-based clinical guidelines that are adopted from recommendations published by major professional organizations such as the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Academy of Family Physicians to diagnose and treat health conditions. With the patient's consent, treatment information is shared with his or her primary care provider to facilitate continuity of care.

About CQIA

The Connecticut Quality Improvement Award Partnership, Inc., a Connecticut nonprofit 501(c)(3) tax exempt corporation, is an active partnership among the private sector, state and municipal government, and the educational community, which annually sponsors a three tiered awards program that recognizes organizations for their accomplishments. The three levels of award are the entry level CQIA Innovation Prize, the mid level Connecticut Breakthrough Quality Award and the highest level Connecticut Leadership Quality Award.

About MinuteClinic

Minneapolis-based MinuteClinic is a subsidiary of CVS Caremark Corporation (CVS, Trade), the No. 1 provider of prescriptions and related health care services in the nation. MinuteClinic launched the first retail health care centers in the United States in 2000 and is the first provider to establish a national presence with more than 190 locations across the country. By creating a health care delivery model that responds to consumer demand, MinuteClinic makes access to high-quality medical treatment easier for more Americans. The company has generated nearly a million patient visits with a 99 percent customer satisfaction rating. A recognized leader in the patient-centric health care movement, MinuteClinic consistently brings innovation to the marketplace and sets new standards for clinical quality that exceed the national guidelines established for store-based clinics by the American Medical Association (AMA) and the American Academy of Family Physicians (AAFP). MinuteClinic is the first and only retail health care provider to receive accreditation from The Joint Commission, the national evaluation and certifying agency for nearly 15,000 health care organizations and programs in the United States. For more information, visit http://www.MinuteClinic.com

SOURCE MinuteClinic

If it's not Scottish, it's CRAP!---Mike Myers

As for Moore’s “truthfulness,” or lack thereof….it’s akin to using statistics. One can be completely honest, citing verifiable stats, and use them to make any argument….even one that might fly in the face of everyday street smarts.

I’m okay with Moore making his case, and he indeed makes many salient points in Sicko. Problem is, he’ so identified with left wing views, that anything he says is going to be challenged by the right.

His own politics have undermined his ability to make even reasonable arguments.

Hey Bob You are learning slowly but surely.

Yeah those lefty politicians have a lot to answer for. Some of them even give a straight yes or no answer to a question.
Some even more radicals think that we should all have equal rights. What is the world coming to?

Okay. I haven't seen the film yet. That said, I do have a couple points that I'm going to make anyway.

Michael Moore has found a way to make a buck. He acts very altruistic, but he preys on fears and half(at best)truths. Never fully a lie, just never fully the truth. I think that became blatantly obvious with his last film and can be verified in previous works. Already, credible critics who have seen this current one are alluding to such tactics in this film.

Here we go.
This isn't meant to put down anyone on this board. It is just a point about some life choices.

Early on in life, most of us begin to try to imagine what it is we're going to do with our lives. We begin to look at all the various possibilities laid out before us in this great big world. So many choices to choose from.

Then, we begin to narrow it down. Filter out the bad choices from the good. For some of us, this can be a long process. Others have known what they're going to do since the day they started walking.

Part of the process may (should) include a close look at the compensation package. What is the potential salary? Can I live on noted salary? Can I support a family on that salary? What is the benefit structure? Benefits can include several factors. Vacation time, profit-sharing, matching funds, insurance,inter-office dating, etc...

Did anyone see that last word in italics back there?

Folks, we all make choices in our lives. We're all responsible adults. I would have loved to become an independent musician 25 years ago when I was leaving college with that first degree. What a romantic adventure! But guess what? It wasn't practical.

Please don't get me wrong. I am not knocking anyone on this board who decided otherwise with their lives. But, we all had the same opportunities early on. We may have taken different routes and made different choices, but there comes a time where an adult needs to take that next step and grow up. Bite the bullet.

If you want good insurance, it isn't going to be free. In fact, it is going to cost a pretty fair portion of your check! There are opportunities for independent musicians to buy insurance. And yes, it is going to cost a pretty penny. but, you can bet it is costing our employers a pretty penny as well. If I didn't have insurance coverage in my benefits package, I'd be making a h$!! of a lot more money than I'm making now - and I work my @$$ off for what I get!

I'd love to make a new cd every year. Tour to promote it. Write, write and write some more! Fact is, I don't have time. But, I DO have insurance and a comfortable living. I'm not living my dream - there has been a sacrifice. Plus, I am paying through the nose to further my education even more now so I can get a measly raise in a couple years. The payoff comes later, but I have to plan ahead in my career assessment, etc.

Just 3 weeks ago, my wife got a phone call from her employer. Every month, they deduct her portion of insurance money and send it to my district to help cover our family plan. In doing so, it helps save us a little money in our monthly fees.

Turns out, they've been forgetting to reimburse us every month for the amount it is supposed to be saving us for the last 5 years! We are seeing a reimbursement well into the 5 figures due to this little accounting error!!

Point being, yeah - insurance does take a pretty healthy chunk from our monthly income. But, I wouldn't want to be caught without it. I've been using that insurance a little more lately, now that middle age has begun creeping into my being in adition to raising two beautiful twins.

Here's the deal. I do not think government control of my health is a good idea at all. I don't care what they're doing in Cuba, Canada or France. America has a good system in place.

Are there problems? yes. Can some of them be fixed? I think so. Does Michael Moore have the answers? quite doubtful. he is a film maker - period! Are there some better things out there? sure. Let's adjust, but not throw the baby out with the proverbial bath water.

I'm tired of Michael Moore. I don't want him or George Soros or Rush Limbaugh messing around with the body politic anymore. Their game is so twisted and slimy. Their little observations are always slanted wayyy off the charts.

I do know that I can still trust my family doctor whom I've had a strong relationship with for nearly 10 years. I get a physical now every year, due to a family history that indicates it would be a good idea. Beyond that, I just have to appreciate the opportunities I have as a responsible citizen of what still remains to be a great country - I'd even still call it the greatest. We're not perfect, but .... you know the rest.

Finally, I may not be recording that cd every year and touring all year and writing, writing, writing. But I do record one roughly every 5 years, tour in the summers (when I'm not working on a masters degree) and write when the muse swings by.

Go ahead & blast away now. I've dismounted the soapbox. Out!

Jeff

We must take responsibility for our own body and how we treat it. Alcohol is a poison,why do we continue to poison our bodies. A little drink of wine may even help our bodies but to much at any one time can harm it.Smoking,we all know how harmful that is, but still people smoke.Street drugs,ruins lives and health, still people do it.Some foods,especially eaten in excess,are harmful,but still we do it.Lack of exercise hurts us,lack of good clean air and water,the list goes on.We only get one body on this earth so we must take care of it,even when we try our best,we can still develope illness,but a healthy,well rested
body can fight off many of these illnesses.Accidents can happen to anyone,but many accidents can be prevented too with a little more care and common sense.

Jeff,

Name a single politician in either party who tells the complete truth about any issue he/she is involved in when making a point? You won't find one. Name one business leader who tells the complete truth from all sides when making a business pitch or new program for their company? You won't find one. Name one person in history who explains the entire picture, good and bad, on their resume when applying for a job? You won't find one. I can continue to list examples.. but there's no one who tells anything other than what best supports their position in things. Are there occassional single issue examples? Sure. Is there anyone who always gives the entire truth, even as they know it, on every issue? Nope.

There are rarely any topics/issues that I couldn't argue vehemently from either side with passion. There are rarely topics without merit and problems on both sides. That's the fatal flaw of a 2 party system. It allows each side to pick only the good and only the bad from each sides topic to either attack or support. Then they get hysterical small minded people to pound their positives and the others negatives into the group to rile up the nation and turn us all against ourselves. In the meantime, rather than accept the "other guys" mostly right but partly wrong position, we do nothing at all and those with the special interests get their narrowly helpful issues through and cash in on them while we mostly all lose. And they get otherwise smart and trustworthy and honest people to fight the "other side" to the deat over part truths and ignored faults.

We've allowed this system to be in place a long time. We know that some people fall through the cracks. If you were caught without insurance and your kids needed a serious health procedure, and it cost more than your house and your possessions and those of your family to treat or cure.. what would you do? Sure.. you'd just figure something out because no one wants to let their kids suffer or die. But what happens NEXT? When you've got no home, no credit to ever buy one again.. no job (because if you have a seriously ill child, the US has no family leave for you to spend the time needed to take your kid to doctors or simply spend time with them as you want, forcing you to choose your job or what could be your childs last days/weeks/months), no car to get to a job (it's one of the first things you sell for money), no possessions (all sold) and your kids still have an entire life to grow up in with nothing (forget college and even if your kid is smart, they're behind due to the health crises and never will get scholarships)? Now what happens when the next serious illness hits you, your wife or your kids again? Now that your kid has a "pre-existing" problem, your family either can't get any insurance, or has to pay huge money in deductables so that each time a normal family illness happens, it pushes you once again to the brink?

I mention this because this stuff happens to people even WITH insurance. Now imagine if you had none to start with? Imagine you're doing blue collar labor, and they move your factory like Bill suggested.. or you work farm labor and get injured yourself and can't work anymore but you have kids and a wife that depend on you. These types of things happen ALL THE TIME. Do you suddenly become less than human because of uncontrollable circumstances? Our society should NEVER force people into this situation. Do most people get great care? Of course. But some don't. If it's only a tiny number of people, then why fear giving those few people free universal health care? It won't cost much because it's a small problem since most people on one side claim that nearly everyone has coverage. If it's a bigger problem, then that is a tacit acknowledgement that there's a BIG problem.

For me, we've done it the other way for a long time. Now it's time to try something else. Now is the time to make sure that no one, whether they are children, teens, middle aged or elderly, goes without health care when they need it.. even if they need it for years at a time or over and over and over. Are some people the causes of their own illness? Yes. Does it suck to cover a drunk or drug user or overeating person who could have avoided their plight? Maybe. But do we want to start monitoring everyone at every moment of life to decide if a choice made allows them to DESERVE health care? I doubt it. I know skinny people who eat more crap every day than I do. Are they more deserving when they keel over with heart disease from it than I am because, even though for the last 12 months I eat 1500-1800 calories a day, and I don't lose a pound of weight? Who is going to make those life and death decisions for others about whether they followed a regimine every moment of their lifes better than someone else? And what happens when we find out the diets we were told to eat were wrong? (Like the food pyramid or the atkins diet.. I can find doctors who insist BOTH are the right way to go!). Or.. perhaps we accept that SOME people are their own worst enemies, but as a compassionate and free society, we simply cover everyone and allow people to make the right or wrong decisions on their own?

I would never want your family to lose everything, including hope, because one of you got ill. I would never want you to have to choose between the life of one family member over the others due to 2 serious illnesses happening at the same time. I don't want ANYONE to live in fear every single minute of every day that they will get sick, or get injured, or simply have the misfortune of a chronic illness they can't do anything at all about... like Type 1 diabetes that has zero to do with weight or eating habits.. or cancer.. or arthritis or alzheimers or (fill in the blank). And for most of us, fortunately, life doesn't insert those terrible things into our lives and so we are lucky... I would trade paying too high of taxes to cover other peoples illnesses even if I was always perfectly healthy.. that's a trade off that ANYONE who IS sick would love to make.

Brian

I think the model in the story of the good Samaritan shows that it is our duty to provide emergency care for our 'neighbor'---no questions asked regarding whether they've done their part to protect themselves or prevent disease.

But, if the good Samaritan had not been a good financial steward, he would not have had the resources to pay for the medical care of the man who'd been mugged along the side of that dangerous road.

I also think that like-minded groups of people (like Medi-Share) should hold one another accountable for wise management of resources. Otherwise, if everyone is bankrupted in then end who will be able to care for the people who are down and out?

Just because it's impossible to make totally sure everyone makes wiser choices in their own health---is that a reason for us not to try to hold one another to a higher goal of managing the earth's resources? The groups who do band together to follow more healthful principles and share a reduced load do that because they are trying to be good stewards. They have to operate in good faith and from evidence from friends and neighbors. Without love for others, nothing will work. You can't force people to care for one another.

If the very, very, rich on this planet won't do the right thing---the rest of us who do care will have to scrimp and scrape and get ready to dig till it hurts----even bankrupts us--- to help those less fortunate I would think. Hopefully, some of those helped will agree to give up the habits that waste healthcare dollars.

Vanessa

I think if you get tangled up in policy prescriptions, you can tie yourself into knots. The real point of the film, the only one that really matters, is the need to place a priority on the philsophy of compassion. Policy is either driven by human caring or it isn't. For me, the need for a priority on humanity is obvious, but to many it is not. We have a substantial number of people in this country (US) for whom, at least in the context of work, commerce and profit comes before humanity, even though the two are hardly exclusive of each other. Few individuals would say they feel that way personally, but when you tuck it inside the structure of a corporation, one can easily say "Well, it is my job." Or, a public corporation has to answer to shareholders.

We do not have a corporate structure that allows less than maximizing profit.

So forget health care specifically for the moment -- we need a national consensus that some things in life are more important than business profit. We still have not yet done away with paying for local public schools with local taxes, but if all schools were private today and the proposal was to create new pubic schools with local tax (exact same system we have today) -- how far do you think it would get? It is not really about quality, it is about private enterprise and government control. That is political philosophy.

The moment you raise that issue, the bogeyman that comes up is socialism. I personally do not think these things are all so black-and-white. But business interests would have you believe that government anything or public anything is tantamount to socialism, and socialism is bad. So if you define anything other than unfettered capitalism as socialism, you have essentially said that money comes first.

Why can't we have that national conversation? We did in the 1930s.

The problem I have is that all our votes have less and less real power, because of the outweighing power of money. Congress - for both parties - is now largely a bank. Campaign contributions go in one account, and earmarks and grants go out the other (yes that is a gross simplification, but you will take the point.)
That is also why we have the candidates we do -- how many good people do you know who would go through the nonsense of running for office?

This is the only reason why I talk and think about wanting to leave, because I fear the power of democracy has been removed from all of us.

Jeff E.

Our votes DO have power...if people would simply use it. It doesn't matter how much money someone throws at a Congressman, if he/she isn't in office. If Congress as a whole is not solving major issues (which they aren't), then VOTE AGAINST THE INCUMBENTS IN YOUR DISTRICT EACH ELECTION YEAR. If we start throwing people out right and left, then I would think it would send a message, plus people would be more encouraged to run against the incumbents if they saw there was a chance to win.

I really like and respect the Congressmen in my districts. But they didn't get my vote last time, nor will they this time because I do not see any major problems getting solved. Jeff, you are exactly correct, money is overrunning everything, and I for one am tired of it. So, I am not going to vote for the same thing (same person or party) over and over. Some say that is the sign of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

Brain is right, voting and believing in party lines is one of the worst things we can do.

I mean, just in the case of health care, our wonderful Congress changed the bankruptcy laws to make them stricter. They did this for the credit card companies, who hardly needed it because they were and are raking in big money. But the side effect is on people with medical bankruptcy. Which is the largest percentage of bankruptcies. This is a terrible law, but just one of many examples of lobby money overriding compassion and mercy. And overriding doing the right thing.

Democracy has not been taken away for us. We are just too lazy to use it correctly.

Jeff, let me get this straight...

So because you don't like to take risks, it's cool for you to lambast the choices of others? It's cool for you to blast a movie by someone you don't like even if you haven't seen it? It's cool to pass judgement on others because their view doesn't fit yours? It's cool to be on a soapbox giving your point of view, but not for Michael Moore to give his?

Oh yeah, this is America.

The funny thing is, this very topic was presented one day in a class I had at music school. It was the most off subject thing about music ever, and it's probably why I remember it. The instructor clearly said, if you plan on being a full time musician - don't get lulled in to a comfort zone you can't get out of. Truer words about being a musician have never been spoken. His point was, if you decide to go get a day job, a girlfriend/wife or even a kid or two, that you'll end up getting used to your money situation and thus comfortable with it and you won't take the risk for your dream. You know what, he was right. I've seen friend after musical friend that has quit music full time because they got comfortable, or had a kid, or got married and was nagged to stop.

To assume that I'm not responsible because I'm a full time musician is downright offensive. To make that assumption about others here that are full time musicians is offensive. To assume that everyone has to start a family is downright rude.

To use your example of growing up and biting the bullet... I'm now starting a corporation. It's still about my music. Eventually it's going to be able to support more than me. If I have employees, I'd like to offer health insurance which is something even the largest bands in the world don't offer to their musicians. As of yet I still don't have health insurance and it remains to be seen if it's even a viable option. I didn't dream of being a businessman. I didn't go to school to be a businessman. Yet to retain control of my artistic vision I've had to adapt to become one. I'm still fighting for every dollar. I've thought long and hard about quitting and getting a day job to be comfortable, so that I won't have to think, to have someone else take care of my crap. Every time the answer is the same, not only in my head but from the mouths of others "You're too damn good to not be doing music."

I have chosen not to have kids. I know full well that my current position is not good for raising a kid. My willpower for my career choice outweighs my desire to replicate. I've lost several relationships over my career choices. As you say, it's about choices. I choose not to be married. I choose to make my dream my reality. I choose to take risks and as certain choices come up, I'm taking bigger and bigger risks. If my cards are being played right, as I think they are, those risks should be paying off pretty big really soon. Do I think my choices are good for everyone? No.

I make my choices because I don't want to wind up in 25 years worrying about a wife and kids and about learning something for someone else hoping they'll compensate me enough to give me security. That's not my choice.

One thing I pride myself on is having an open mind to look at other peoples views. I also tend to reserve judgement and spouting off about something if I have not seen it or experienced it. It's unfortunate that your not willing to give the same courtesy to others. It's unfortunate that your dream wasn't practical to you. Don't hate me because my dream is practical for me and that I'm making it a reality.

Congrats on having health insurance and the good fortune of them actually being kind enough to refund money they've wrongfully taken from you. I was not so fortunate.

Jody

OK. A lot of us have said our piece. Lots of different views on this subject. And a lot of passion.
That's a good thing I think.

What it comes down to is what are we willing to do?
If we look at the best(France) and the almost worst(I'd say number 37 is just about there, America) where do we find a middle ground.

Many have said they don't have health insurance because they can't afford it.
Some because they don't qualify.(that really is criminal).
Others have their own private policies, others through work.

(1) how about this
If we go the way of France it will cost us, a lot. Minimum is 20% of our gross income and I don't know what the maximum is but self employed people pay more.
The good thing is EVERYONE is covered.
The bad; A married couple both earning $50,000 a year will pay a minimum of $20,000 per year plus the other taxes they already pay. It won't hurt them as much as a married couple each earning $25,000 each a year. It will cost them $10,000 PLUS. That's a chunk.
I can't afford it will no longer be a reason for not having it.

So, who is up for that?

(2) How about this.
Make it illegal for an insurance company to refuse insurance to anyone.
Make all insurance companies Non-Profit by law?
How do we make this fair? Rich folks pay the same as poor folks for insurance? Or premiums based on ability to pay?
What if you don't work?(Yeah I know, we don't have lazy people in America that don't work) Free insurance?
Or, can't work. Some people really can't work. Free insurance?
Make all Pharmaceutical companies Non-profit?
Will this remove any incentive to do a good job or develop new treatment modalities?
Oh, don't forget the 20 to 50 million illegal immigrants. They need coverage too I guess. How much should we tack on each persons premium to pay for them? $500 a month should do it.

Who's up for that?

(3)How about this.(Yeah I know, this ones a little out there)
We have the government subsidize the building of new factories to start manufacturing actual products. Pay a decent wage and offer health insurance.(I bet the factories would be cheaper than health insurance)
If you are self employed you can join a factory's group plan.
And no one can be refused health insurance. period.
Repeal NAFTA(sorry Brian I had to include that)
If you are able bodied and able to work you have a job. If you don't work you don't get squat. A new slogan for America. (You don't work, you don't eat) And you don't get insurance.
Round up all the illegal immigrants and kick them out of our country so we don't have to treat them for free, or, simply refuse them any type of assistance. (should save us a few Billion $) And, make it a felony to hire one. Punishable by mandatory prison time.
Fire congressmen and the Senators if they don't do 2000 hours of work per year.
Stop paying welfare mothers to have more babies. Or, have a DNA database to track who the father is. He either supports the kids and provides health insurance for them or goes to prison.
Bring back capital punishment for Murder(convicted with DNA evidence or some other form of evidence that is indisputable). One appeal within one year then you are executed. That should thin out the prison population.(and save us a few Billion$)
These savings could pay for the ones that need help with health insurance
Disabled persons would still be eligible for government assisted medical care, of course.
Foreign aid money should only come out of a budget surplus. After everyone here is taken care of.

Who's up for that?

Hmmm. Actually I think all of these are a little out there.

Anyone got a better idea?

Hi Jody

Easy big guy, you gonna blow a gasket.

Entrepeneurs. They are the people that built this country. Nothing wrong with that. It's part of the American dream.
You have a dream, go for it. Don't let anyone tell you ya can't.

Back in the Eighties I had a dream. I wanted to build a business. It was to be a family run remodeling business. I started it, 2 of my brothers soon joined me. The Business was mine tho. I took all the risk. We did OK for a few years but then the economy tanked and I got in trouble. I paid everyone but myself and the IRS. big mistake. I lost everything.
But I was still healthy and just started all over. In a different state. And I have done OK. Not great, but OK
During that time I did not have any health insurance. Heck, I was a young tough healthy construction worker.
I thank God (or something) I never got sick or badly injured.

Was it risky. Yes it was. If I would have gotten hurt or sick I would have been in real trouble. But I knew the risk I was taking. I quit a good job with health insurance to follow the dream.
I have known a few carpenters who were missing a finger tip or two. I was almost one of them. Got a really nasty cut through a finger on a table saw. A little further in I would have lost it.
But, you know what? It was a risk I was willing to take. I knew if I lost a finger there would be no putting it back on. I had no money and no insurance. Every self employed carpenter I have ever met knows it too.(a little reference to the film there, I don't know if the guy was a carpenter or not)).
So, it is your risk to take. If you want to try to build your dream and are willing to sacrifice a few things for it then I say Hooray for you. Go For It.

But at the same time do not complain that you have given up a few things along the way, Health Insurance being one of them. You have made that choice. No one made it for you.

I commend you for having the guts and the vision to follow your dream.
Good luck.

As far as SICKO goes. Honestly, I have seen Michael Moores other films and I have seen several trailers from this film. I do not have to see it to know how I will feel about it. If anyone can tell me he did not employ the same tactics as he used in the other films I may opt to go see it. Other wise I see no point in my seeing it..

Hey Jody
As a young heatlhy guy, I would highly remommend you buy a catastropic health ins policy. You can take a huge deductible (like 5k) and basic coverages. It would be pretty inexpensive and would PROTECT YOUR INSURABILITY. If things happened you can keep the plan and lower your deductible. Without ins, if you become ill for any reason, no one will take you. My wife deals with this every day, she is an ins broker and mostly specializes in health. Once you're ill, it's too late.

Wow, so I guess Brian should also stop complaining about his healthcare problems too, right? After all, running JPF full-time is his choice...

Maybe he should choose to shut down JPF and focus on "growing up" and getting a "real job" with health benefits. We wouldn't have JPF anymore, but them's the breaks!

Or, you know, maybe we could take some of all that tax money we're paying and fund a basic system that doesn't force us to choose between death and bankruptcy...

I recommend this too. I had a $100/mo plan that covered the really bad, sudden stuff requiring an ambulance and hospital. I couldn't use it for things like prescriptions, therapy or specialized care, but it was better than being stuck ill and uninsured.

That is not what I said Scott. I never mentioned Brian or any one else. Jody clearly stated it was his choice and that is fine by me. He can decide for himself what he wants to do.
I also made that choice for many years.
Brian did not make the choice. He was denied insurance as a self employed person. To me that is just criminal. Big difference.

And personally NO I would not be willing to pay $20,000 in taxes plus per year for health insurance on top of the taxes I already pay.
That also is my choice.


Just like Michael Moore. He takes one sentence out of an article and twist it around to fit his own meaning and not tell the rest of the story.

I wasn't complaining. I stated it was my choice. But another JPF member was inferring that making a risky choice is not being responsible. I say that's not true.

Also, at what point is $20,000 20% of $50,000?

Herbie, I appreciate the suggestion. There's a strong possibility that in 30 to 60 days I'll have the insurance setup through my corporation. We'll see. I'm new to the whole running and owning a corporation thing. I'm a musician, not a businessman.

My whole point with the rebuttle to Java/Jeff was that it's not cool to assume that because someone doesn't have a family or day job or insurance that they're not being responsible.

Jody

Jody My wife earns 50k plus, I earned close to that.
Not now I'm on SS.
With the French system you would be taxed per working person, not per family. And most Husbands and wives work these days.
Any one who thinks the French system won't dig deep into your pocket is fooling themselves.
If we could do this. And I think it would be great but I think we know they would add the taxes on top of what we already pay in taxes.
I doubt it would be twenty percent but you know it would be hefty.

$50,000 a year is not uncommon these days. Hell My Pipe fitter cousin makes more than that. And so does his wife. Both would pay 20% of gross.

I wasn't inferring you personally were complaining it was a general statement.

Hey there Jody,
I guess I'll take the bait. You're easily offended if something I say can get to you that much.

18 years ago, I was off insurance for 2 years while I was getting teacher certified. I went skiing one night & lost both my front teeth in a skiing accident. It took me 7 years to pay off those new teeth & procedures. But I didn't complain about it. We had to suck it up. I was in my 20's and accepted the risk.

Yes, I do think it is a little irresponsible to be in your 40's and not be insured. Call me judgmental. Hell, I get judged every day I'm on my job. I'm getting judged in front of my music arranging class each day after my arrangements are played in front of my professor & classmates too, sometimes pretty harshly. I'm not slamming back at people for it. They may have a point.

Actually Jody, I think things have been coming together for you for as long as I've been with JPF. Congratulations for that!

In the meantime, we've still made choices. Choosing to go into a profession that is obviously not insured & then complaining about the fact that medical attention costs so much money is kind of like migrating illegally to a country and not expecting to learn the language. Getting mad at everyone in that country who expects you to assimilate into the culture seems kind of silly. Learn the language! People might accept you more.

Does being an independent musician definitely mean you can't hold down a job somewhere with benefits? Interesting insinuation that working for someone else makes you not have to think. I'm thinking really hard at the moment to try to make that connection...

Don't take my comments so personally. As you said in an earlier post, there's three sides to any story. You fire some pretty hefty shots at me directly there. I can take it. Been taking it in the classroom for a long time now. You're a smart man, Jody. Right now, you have your health. Waiting for that day when something is going to go wrong to decide how it is going to be covered is irresponsible. Call me wrong. My wife sure did when I knocked my teeth out.

btw - I don't not like to take risks.

I'm going to a Fourth of July celebration now, so happy writing while I'm away!

Jeff

Yup, you have a point. Either way, I'm not irresponsible, that's my point. I didn't mean to say I was offended, I meant to say that a comment about being irresponsible like that is offensive (the comment).
I realize that taking on a day job makes doing music harder, that why I chose to tough it out with music, less complications that way. To me, to stop making music full time means to stop thinking. That's my connection, I'm abnormal like that.

As for my connections with gf/wives/kids/jobs, that's not just you, it's lots of musician friends I've known. Many who were/are brilliant players who gave up. Which is entirely sad.

I'm guessing you meant to say that you like to take risks, that's good.

Jody

Wow!!! I've been gone all day working in my kindergarten classroom. My eyes are blurred 'cos I wore my 'too old' contacts too long today. But, I scanned enough to see that you guys have had some great discussion today. And quite civil. I'll come back and read tomorrow. Goodnight.

Vanessa

Maybe I should stay out of this discussion,all I know about the American health problem is what I hear and see on TV,I know nothing about the French system what so ever,but I know a little about the Canadian system.

The health plan cost is covered through our income tax,the feds pay a share and the provincial governments pay a share.Each province runs their own system but under federal guidelines.Some provinces require a small extra tax on working people,my province does not.The doctors that work directly for the hospitals are paid a wage and extra for surgery and other procedures(I believe that is the case) A doctor in private practice will be paid a set fee for each person he/she sees in their clinics.Each doctor is also required to put in time at the hospitals,for which they are paid a flat rate, extra.

I don't know what income tax rates you pay in the US,I don't even know what rate we pay here for high income earners.I never made over $30,000.00 a year,so I was always in the lowest bracket.Right now I pay 15.25% federal and 10.57% provincial on net earnings(after personal exemptions),our provincial tax is dropping 2% this coming year.How does that compare to the US? We are taxed more heavily on alcohol and tobacco(that's a good thing) gasoline,etc.I even wrote a song about all the taxes we pay.

We Canadians love our health care system,even though we complain sometimes.We get the care we need instantly if it requires instant care.We may have to wait for some care if it is not urgent,but we will get it.From the richest to the poorest,from a new born baby to 100 year old person,we are covered,employed or unemployed,we are covered.We can get insurance to cover drugs, drugs that cost a lot less here than the US.If you are an old age pensioner and are under a certain income per month,you only pay a flat rate of seven or eight dollars per perscription,the government pays the rest.

As far as I know,employers in Canada do not have to pay anything to governments for health coverage for their employeese,just their taxes.Some employers provide health coverage for drugs,the insurance pays 80% while the employee pays 20%.To me,it seems the employer in the US is at a disadvantage if they are required to pay thousands per employee to cover health insurance.Maybe that is why they are moving offshore to manufacture their goods.

Everett,

Straight from the horses mouth. You could have made the points that Moore made in his film even better. I think the big corporations use their media power to give the perception that people in Canada are dying in the streets waiting in lines because they can't get health care. They suggest that you're risking your life to let a Canadian doctor do any serious procedure as if they are incompentent. They suggest that using drugs (in the same packaging and from the same manufacturers as here) will be risking your life because it's often fraudulent fake or inferior quality to the drugs you get here from the same people. Basically they spend a lot of money injecting fear (ah.. the root of all power right?) into our people that the Canadian system would kill us all.

I just got a new bill for our property taxes here in Indiana. Keep in mind that we have the cheapest housing market in the entire USA. (This is the 3rd or 4th straight year that's true). Yet our property taxes just increased to 10% of our yearly income (They just increased 50% literally this week!). This is in addition to our state and federal income taxes as well as sales taxes. I am willing to bet we are paying 40+% in the end here and we ALSO have to pay a TON, even WITH insurance, for health care. I spend, on average, about 1000 dollars a month for health care on top of all the taxes. Now who is crazy?

Our system is NOT the greatest. It's #37. Even if that was off by half.. we'd be around 20th. That's sad in the richest country in the world. And that's WITH insurance. Imagine those poor people without it.

Brian

Hi Everett

I think you have touched on the one subject that will determine the eventual outcome of all this.
Taxes.

If there is one thing persons in the United States will respond to it is a discussion on taxes.
Our tax system is as big a mess as the health care system. It takes a lawyer and an accountant to file most peoples taxes. There are so many loopholes and traps in our tax system that very few people understand it.
One thing they do understand though is they think they pay to much and the Rich folks don't pay enough.
It is always a hot topic around election time. Any politician that mentions a tax increase is almost guaranteed to lose.
Therefore, Any mention of a government run health system(which will certainly raise taxes) is gonna be a no-no.
Michael Moore said the French Government proposed the system to the people and let them decide. That would be a great idea I think. Put in on the ballot and let the people vote on whether they want a National Health care system. The one thing it would need would be an solid estimate of what tax increase it would involve.
I don't know what the Canadian tax system is like. We do not have a flat tax here. That's why our tax returns are such a nightmare. Right now we pay a tax for Social Security(but it does NOT include Health Insurance). The worker pays a percentage of their gross and the Employer matches it. I think it totals about 16%. If you are self employed you pay the whole amount.
Each income bracket has a tax on their Net income. What that means is we get to deduct certain things from our gross income to determine our net income. The net is what we get taxed on. And, it is a very complex system.
Our Social Security tax was supposed to be for retirement but it has morphed into something much more complex. We also have a Medicare tax which I do not understand at all. But unless you are disabled you do not qualify for benefits until you are 65 years old. Then I guess you have to pay for it. I don't understand that either, LOL.

In theory we are already paying about 16% for Social Security. It is also running at a deficit so adding National Health Care to it would not work because it is already in trouble.
Any National Health care plan would require additional taxes.
Also it is not common knowledge but many Municipalities do not pay into Social Security. They have self insured status. Chicago is one. The Municipal employees do NOT pay into it. The years I worked for Chicago Fire Department I did not pay a penny into Social Security. It reduced the amount I am able to collect because I made no contribution during those years.

We also have what is called an underground economy. That is, people work for cash. No check and they don't pay taxes. That was one of my cousins. He never paid anything for taxes. He only worked for cash. It cuts down on your employment opportunities but many labor type jobs are done this way. The employer benefits in that he does not have to pay his portion of Social Security among other things like Workers Compensation insurance, which in some jobs is very expensive. I paid 33% for roofers that worked for me. That's 33% of their wage. The can be very hefty.

So, I guess what I am getting at is trying to convince people to go to a National Health care system in this Country is probably going to be a very hard sell. Most Americans already feel like they are paying to much in taxes.
If you look at the average family insurance plan paid for by an employer it seems like the number run the gamut. Some say $500 a month or as high as $1000 a month. Granted, there is Profit for the insurance company in that. But even if you take away 33% of that for profit you are still looking at a pretty hefty number.

I doubt very much that our government would reduce any of the taxes they are already getting so a National Health care plan would add tax on that. It would be nice if they could, LOL.
Simple Math would look like this i think.
Lets say an average family coverage would cost $500 a month. I think that is very low though. More like double that simply because you would be paying for all the ones that don't work. And in this Country their are a LOT of people that don't work.

Most folks in this country probably make about $30,000 a year. I might be way off on that.
But even at $500 a month that would be 20%.

Now lets say the average earner is paying 15% a year in taxes already.(I might be off on that but I think that's about what we paid last year because of all our deductions). And if you have a private health insurance program you can deduct that from your gross income and do not pay taxes on it.

That would be 35% a year in taxes. A $30,000 a year person would be paying $10,500 a year.
I can tell you. A Married person with one kid would probably starve to death on that is this Country.

Now you look at some of the more affluent people in this country. The ones making $100,000 a year.
Asking them to pay $35,000 a year would be a very hard sell indeed.(actually it would be much higher because our tax system is graduated. Those folks are probably already paying about 28%.

So, this is not an argument for or against National Health Care. I think it would be a wonderful idea if they could find a way to do it.

Brian
I am Jealous

I just got my summer Real estate tax bill.
It went up 100%.
Yep...doubled.
Oh woe is me.

I wonder if the new Medical Center for Cancer treatment at the University had anything to do with your increase?

I think I read where the average American works until June 1 to pay all their taxes. That is pretty sad

Hey Bill The answer is simple do not work until after June 1st.


Seriously There is nothing wrong with private enterprise and profits. There is nothing wrong with public taxes paying for services. At least you know where the money is going and nobody is creaming off any profits. Call me a lefty socialist but I would rather 100% of my money goes to the services than pay any middle men..
Maybe if middle America got rid of it's old fasioned bigotry and socialist hang ups your country would be better for all and not just a few.

.

I can't believe you actually said that.

Interesting also that Bigot is a french word

Big Jim,
Socalized Medicine is what got us into this mess in the first place. The U.S has about a 9 trillion dollar national debt, Medicare is in deep trouble, Social Security, of which was never intended as a retirement system is in the last stages of it's existance, Somewhere we got a Federally Run Retirement system, of which I understand is woefully under funded, and we are running budget deficits each year of several billion dollars. And Medicaid is also in deep trouble. There is a lot of corruption in the system as well as well as out and out crooks ripping off the system. From time to time they are caught and prosucuted but a lot of it is just pure ripoffs by those that are supposed to be legitimite.

There is no fix. And a National Health Care System is no answer. Getting it all back to the private sector is the best route but many don't want it so on it goes. As I wrote in one of my earlier posts, I see the whole system going bust and then we can start over.

Hey Bill most of our language is derived from French which in turn is derived mainly from Latin. We have a few Norse words thrown in for good measure. With your French connections you should know that.
As an outsider watching US TV religious and social bigotry is quite apparant. I find this quite disturbing from a country which claims to be the best in the world.

Jim I have read many a post made by you and always felt you a fair and inteligent man.
Bigotry is an awful accusation. I might be a red neck and have some very strong views on a lot of matters but to be called a bigot is really upsetting.
I certainly would urge you to not believe everything you see on TV.
I may not agree with someone but I certainly will defend their right to their belief and I believe the overwhelming majority of people in this country feel the same way.
It is one of our founding principals.
Certainly there is a segment of our society that are bigots. As in any society.
Right now we have a situation where Bigotry could very easily raise up its ugly head.
But intolerence of their beliefs is not happening here.
Unless they take those beliefs and use them to perpetrate violence against us. Then it's a different story. The gloves come off.
Even then I think we are very careful to distinguish between the bad guys and the good guys.

My French Connection? I don't get that.
I am of Scottish Ancestory. The Clan Gunn. Decendant from the Norse Olaf the Black.
And English...Shadrick

it's ironic that if you want free medical care in the US
joint the military or go to prison

ande

The French tax of 20% compares favorably to the 28% rate most Americans who pay taxes pay. Many can afford accountants and lawyers to get them out of paying taxes at all. Most Americans are in the 28% tax bracket, or were the last time I heard the statistic cited. The government, you know, the one your taxes pay for, doesn't let data like that out anymore. You can calculate your percentage by looking at your last few years' tax returns.

The big difference is that the 20% French rate cited pays for everything the 28% rate does, but also sends French people to college, supplies affordable day-care so both man and wife can work and afford to live in today's high-priced world, and much more. It's more complex than this but, unless you see Sicko, you may never know.

In fact, unless Michael Moore made his documentaries, we wouldn't know anything about most of the issues he documents. He isn't just playing with statistics. He quotes and interviews Presidents, congressmen, news commentators, business-people, doctors, nurses, actors, garbage collectors, eyewitnesses, widows, orphans, whoever's got a piece of the story.

But if you come prepared to see spin instead of facts you probably won't learn anything new. I was amazed to watch Fahrenheit 911 and hear people refute facts with opinion, not facts, thereby missing more facts while they talked.

This doesn't reduce down to Democrats versus Republicans as seems to be implied by several posts. It's interesting that we've been trained to see everything through that simplistic either/or filter. Observe that the #2 man for the Democratic team trying to occupy the Whitehouse in the last election turned out to vote with the Republicans so often he came under fire, and now designates himself as representing the Independent party, Joe Lieberman. From #2 leadership Democrat decision-maker to Independent. Observe that Republicans are separating themselves from the treasonists in the Whitehouse, and becoming targets of their own party.

We are either able to get value for our tax dollars and earnings or we aren't. Our tax dollars don't buy us much at all. Most of it goes for national defense and we are defenseless. It's supposed to regulate the safety and quality of our food and drugs, and 82% of doctor visits are for diet-related disorders because our food supply is poisoned, and the prescriptions and procedures they sell us are as dangerous or moreso than the disease you came in with. Our tax dollars are supposed to provide law enforcement but police will come and protect your dead body. You'd better be able to protect yourself. Tax dollars for clean water? Your water isn't fit to drink. Paying for clean air? Getting it? We're paying plenty of taxes in America. We're just not getting much value.

And no party is leading the charge to change things. Most folks don't have enough information to know the difference and demand change. We're easily fooled, distracted by Paris Hilton and Anna Nicole Smith, easily fooled by declarations of pseudo-Christian fidelity, gun control, abortion, gay marriage, non-issues that are used to divide and conquer you. You need a solution to your problems. It starts with your own education and only you can take care of that.

Hey Bill no offence meant it was a wake up call to all the people who blame everything on the pinkos when they shoud blame the fat cat capitalists for the damage their greed causes. I though everyone in your neck of the woods had French connections.

Ray Something bugs me about claims that private enterprise is better and more efficient than public run services. The fact that profit has to be made negates that one for a start.
It is not the system that is wrong just perhaps the way it is run. I have seen badly run profit making companies go to the wall just the same through waste and bad management and there are crooks everywhere so do not scrap the system. Run it properly by qualified efficient people who know what they are doing. It may mean that taxes (bad word) may have to increase but if you want a great system it does not come for free. As I said before with people living longer and more costly equipment and technology demands are higher so you have to pay.

Perhaps that is the problem. People want the best health and pension service but do not want to have to pay for it. Then when they get old or sick they wished they had.

Maybe if the USA stopped invading other countries and starting illegal wars the billions of dollars saved would help.

I believe that both the pinkos and large business are eating it up with this entire health care issue.
The health care profession unfortunately is all about money.
The biggest thing I have with managed care and to where I question it is with a personal matter with a relative that I heard happens quite frequently.
In needing some specialized care for a health condition and the provider determing if the specialist is needed. So there enters rationed care.
I mention the instance, but will not go into great detail.

I guess the way I see it, is if the tax money can be basically thrown out the window to where it does'nt involve life or death, then why can't there be money set aside for health care needs?
I mean, criminals and gang types can still move to a lot of states and take advantage of the welfare benefits (and I hav'nt forgotten the corporate ones on welfare).
But I think not being left to die outside of a hospital (more recently, if you have watched the news, right in the emergency room) would be a basic given with welfare.

No, definately for it to go on this long with the health care dilemma, both sides have the most to loose.
The priorities on how tax money is spent defies comprehension.

Matt

Jim I can definitely go along with you on us not invading other countries. I don't think we are the only country to have done that though.
As a matter of fact I wish we would stop doing anything in other countries, unless they were willing to foot the bill.
I don't know how much of our tax dollars leave this country but it would be fine with me if none did until every American citizen has what they need first.
But that's politics, LOL.


Lets see, I'm trying to remember where the United kingdom has been. I'm not sure if they considered it "invading" or not.
South Africa, India, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Hong kong, Taiwan, Indonesia, Ireland, Scotland(had some Nasty wars there I think) Oh. America, can't forget that one. Hmmm I seem to remember something about taxes, too. Most of Europe at one time or another. Of course France invaded England a few hundred years back and I think the official language of England was actually French at one time. South America, China, Egypt, Hmmm I know there's more I just can't think of them right now.

Seems they would have learned their lesson by seeing how much we have screwed up and stay at home.

Andrew, I may be wrong but, we pay taxes based on our NET income. The French Pay based on Gross, 20%. Huge difference. That's the health insurance part. Then I think they pay a regular tax on the net income.
I can calculate my taxes from last year. It was less than 13% of my GROSS income.

Let's not forget the recent Falklands skirmish...