JPF Home Page Forums Musician Gear and Techniques Bass and Drum Forum Does Size Matter? Big kit or small kit?

I've worked with drummers who had six or more toms with double basses. I've worked with guys who only used one tom, a bass drum, a snare, a hat, and a ride.

Sometimes the guys with the small kits seem to play more than the guys with the big ones.

What's your take?

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Mike Dunbar Music

I think with less drums, there's a good chance that a drummer could learn to make just as many sounds as with a large setup, by playing all parts of the heads at various times.

I have a small, standard kit, (1965 Rogers, Holiday series), and with only one floor instead of the two it originally sold with. With different attacks, and with playing on the edges for certain strikes, it can sound as if several rack toms and floors are being played. (not that I'm really good like a pro drummer though). But it is more fun for me that way, instead of having a fleet of drums to get lost behind and go 'round the huge horn. I guess it works for heavy metal concerts and such, but for tasty drumming, I think less is more. I saw Dave Weckel with a minimum kit with Chic Chorea, and he sounded GREAT and with lots of sounds. I also find playing the symbols all over can give many sounds and volumes. Using the sticks in different ways also changes the sounds, of course. I have been "trying" to play Buddy Rich style drums for a change of pace from the usual Pop/Rock. And, listening to his sounds, it sounds like there's a dozen drums being kayed at once sometimes, while all his used was a similar kit as mine. (He even used the mid sixties Rogers for a while).

Now, even more sounds can be had with more drums with those techniques, BUT how many sounds does one drummer really need? It's like a painter that shows up and deplays how he can paint with as many colors as possible at once, and in a showy way, but all you need is your house painted!

There's ways to get the double bass drum effect with one, by using the toes with slipper like shoes, or even slippers or no shoes. I've been lifting and arching my foot, then forcing the toes and the lower part of the foot to hit in rapid fire motion. Cool to do and hear. Works great for those symbol endings to songs. (having the kick drum in time with the rolling symbols. It's just fun to do, rather than using a double pedal or two kicks. Flaring the kick can also be done here and there, to give that double bass sound, or using the floor with the kick drum while the left hand is doing other things.

Yes, I like the smaller, standard setup. Forces one to be creative, OR just to keep it simple, as with most songs.

John Daubert
Love to beat on me drum all day!

An old aquaintance once told me that the drummer for the band Jellyfish used to stand behind a cocktail kit. Not sure what that is, but it sounds smaller than a standard kit.

They had a great sound.

I may be wrong, but I think a cocktail kit uses a modified tom to be played with a foot pedal on the floor, like a bass drum in a kit.

Anyone know for sure?

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Mike Dunbar Music

I'm personally all about the small kit




Not sure if that will owrk on not... if not, you can see the image here..

http://www.getlostinamerica.com/images/Mark1.jpg

Cool little kit, Mark!

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Mike Dunbar Music

Yeah, It's something I kind of jerry-rigged together, based on another band's drumset that is now defunct. It gets the job done, and it makes people look again... plus it gives me the freedom to stand up a rock on some of our tunes and getme more involved with the stage show, rather then being a background prop

Big or small kit...doesn't matter...it's all about the drummer. Neil Peart uses a giant kit and he's good. Kenny Aronoff generally uses a small kit and he's good. Just depends on the drummer.

On a side note:

I have to say I really doubt that anyone can truly get a double bass flam effect from a single pedal...no matter which technique you use...it may sound cool or close, but it's not the same. Or the machine gun effect used in thrash metal can't really be done with a single pedal no matter how fast you are. At least that's what I've observed.

Gunstreet

[This message has been edited by Gunstreet (edited 06-13-2003).]

For those who might be curious...

Mp3s from the Peabody's Battle of the Bands in Cleveland have been posted on our website. You can hear the little kit that could in action.


http://www.getlostinamerica.com

I have played guitar and bass with both set ups and I actually prefer a drummer with a small rig. While the name escapes me, I always like the playing of the drummer with the Stray Cats, vintage and simple.

I'm with Gary, some of the best drummers I ever played with used small kits (by small I mean fewer not tiny drums).. My favorite before he stopped playing secular music was jazz trained. All kinds of creative bass lines just came to my fingers playing with him. My current guy has a kit that fills a whole room. He never leaves any space and figures since he has 8 cymbals me must play them all (all the time). It;s like killing a fly with a cannon. People like him though. I find myself totally just dropping out or leaving huge rests just so when I start playing again you notice the difference. It's not the kit, it's the player, but sometimes a smaller kit may force a guy to be more creative with what he's doing instaed of just banging away to justify being surrounded by a zillion surfaces to smack on.

when we were looking for drummers back in 85'. we had this guy with long hair and 20 drums come in and play. after he did we put tape on some of his drums. saying cut your hair and bring back only the drums without tape. he's been with us ever since,... go figure,,www.barkinbarney.com

I tend to change my kit size according to the material to be played live. In recording I do as well. If it doesn't require a lot of dynamic fills, I down size. As low as a kick, snare, & cymbal. Or up to 7 pieces if it really calls for it. And I'll swap out snare drums as well when needed. It's all about the song for me.

Cocktail kits are very cool. I wish that I owned one. The meat of the kit is a snare combo floor tom that is around 24" deep {work with me here} and I think that they may be smaller than the standard 14inch batter head on the older ones. In any case, a snare strainer runs just underneath the top head. Usually a small splash comes with it. This would be more in keeping with the "older kits" that I have seen. There are a couple of newer ones put out by Yamaha & Slingerland. They both use a dedicated snare. {5X8} The slingerland is more like a traditional kit in set up. A floor tom takes the place of the kick. And the Slingerland uses a hi-hat as well. Which means you'd sit down to play it. The Yamaha is more traditional. Comes with a snare and tom like the Slingerland. You stand up to play it. Comes with a cymbal holder and a percussion block. Both are very cool. However, the Yamaha's over a $1000.00. The Slingerland is under $400.00 Both are very useful. Probably the Yamaha is more geared to mellow Jazz, or quiet types of music. The Slingerland is a general purpose kit.

Great idea on your kit Mark. That's the nice thing about kits. "Experimentation"!

Kris

This is the age old question. I use a standard kit. I find that I use less actual drums (a snare, a double bass pedal, three toms) and more cymbals. You only need so many different tom sounds. I have a lot of cymbals, my kit is set up with 9 as of right now, because each cymbal offers a truely unique sound not necessarily able to be reproduced off of another cymbal. I find that drummers on small kits tend to be able to move a bit faster over their kit. Also, I think they become better all around drummers because they have to make do with minimal setup and still have their music sound good. (however, their are acceptions to this..Niel Piert for one) But this is comming from a punk drummer. I find this setup works well for country as well, but for a lot of other styles, the bigger kit may be necessary. So big or small? I say less drums, mroe cymbals.

I gotta say I agree with Kris on this one.

If you're aiming at a jazz or country gig then you dont really need a huge kit in general. Different sounds can be achieved with one tom by exciting a range of harmonic frequencies, usually achieved by hitting off centre, pulling the stick back etc. Also people don't expect such a range of cymbal sounds. A large kit is occasionally seen as trying to steal the spotlight.

If you're a thrash metal / black metal drummer looking shin melting double bass and earth shattering toms then more drums are usually useful. It's very hard to match the energy of the fundamental frequency on any tom. For this reason a range of toms can give the sound more oomph. Also by using the different sound of each tom you can get that "running down a corridor of drums" effect my metal guitarist loves so much.

I drum for a few bands right now and the size of my kit depends completely on the style of the songs. In my case I find that elaborate drums are more easily produced on a bigger kit.

Having said all that, the biggest kit I use is a 5 peice with 5 cymbals and a double bass pedal.

Recorder,

You got it right. It's about being right for the gig.

Whenever he heard, "Less is more" an old friend of mine used to say, "Less is less, more is more, too much is too much, too little is too little."

Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

Sorry to go back to the Stray Cats...Slim Jim Phantom, played at a wee local fest over here called the Wickerman Festival, impressive!!

Hi,

The consensus here leans toward the small kit and I like a small kit but only in the sense of the number of shells.

I started with a 20" bass, then had a red Vistalite Ludwig 22" but now have and love my 24" X 16" (outside to outside of hoops) gretsch bass.

I don't like a deep shell because I want the faster decay rate.

Doug Rhodes, a friend of mine who did studio work with the Association (Along Comes Mary etc.) said to me one day that he wished drummers had bigger basses than on average. . . so that further inspired me to get the 24" when one showed up. You can get a deeper note at the same tension as with a smaller shell.

I use two felt strips on the resonant head and one on the batter side -- IMHO, two heads are better than one

My toms are 12, 13 and 16" floor.
6 1/2" X 14 Premier snare.

Cheers,
Terry

Bumping some useful older posts

I use to have a full Rogers endorsement back when. I had four kits(1 studio series, 1 always in road cases, 1 in our rehearsal hall & One with just the coolest finish that I wanted to keep pristine). Boy, were those the days! Anyway, you can see my road kit on www.zionrocks.org
Not that the kit wasn't huge enough, but I added Roto Toms onto one of the mid tom mounts. I use to use all the drums quite expressively. They were mostly impressive sounding during solos.
Today, I use a 5 piece Taye Tour Pro fusion kit. Love it!
I agree with Kriss Karr in that it depends on what you need them for. There are times when I feel like I want a larger tom to fill a part that would call for a larger tom. Its neat to have the options, but not necessary. I can tune my 14" Taye's tom to sound pretty punchy an low (check out my drum samples on the weblink below) The size of the kit does not determine the drummer, It is what is done with what you got.
Where have I heard that before?
Cheers,
Tommy

I'm using fewer drums and cymbals these days. I also like a small set that can give me a good sound without banging on it. I play with some smaller ensembles or places where it's not about the volume. I get those gigs because I can play quiet and with some taste.
dave

I think smaller would be better.
Just because it would force the drummer to be more resourceful and powerful.
I recall a metal drummer I knew that saw Tesla when they were on their first major tour.
Commenting how small the drummers rig was.
I guess it's a lot bigger now.
But I thought Mechanical Resonance had almost a Bonham quality about the drumming.

Matt

Some of my favorite drummers use {used] huge kits {Neil Peart,Keith Moon, Ginger Baker} others used small ones {Charlie Watts, Max Weinberg [Bruce Springsteen} Kenny Aaronoff{John Mellencamp among many} Jim Keltner {Session man extrordninaire} It's all in the player,not the kit.

Yeah.. I saw Aronoff do a show with Mellencamp and he had a set with a snare, 1 tom, hi hat and 1 cymbal.. that was it.. he sounded like a drum god on it. It was a giant outdoor concert and still it was amazing.

Brian

It all about how one makes their drums fit to the music they are playing to.

'Slim' Jim Phantom allways sounded great when I saw him.(Stray Cats).1 snare-1 cymbal.

and then to one of the biggest sets
Neil Peart-2112 tour-Massive set on this tour.

I think it is how the drummer uses his talent-big or small set.

Take Care:

Dude

I once had a Ludwig double bass kit with four mounted toms, one floor tom and a rack of three roto toms. Great for drum solos, but not practical for most songs, IMO.

An inexperienced drummer will often overplay with an excessive amount of drums.

I now use a five piece TAMA kit and I'm quite happy with what I can do with it.

As a drummer I can testify that one of the most difficult things to learn is "less is more". (Guitar players, this does not apply to you either!! ha, ha) That being said, playing a smaller kit kind of forces you to play less because you simply have less, but ultimately it comes down to the person behind the drums. Molding his or her sound to the overall music and fitting in to the goal of the writer or band and understanding that the drums, most of the time, should not be out in front of the sound.

Personally, since I play a wide variety of styles, rock, folk, blues jazz, rythem and blues etc. I play a 5 piece with a single bass drum, snare, 2 ride toms, 1 floor tom, 2 crashes, 2 splashes a ride and a high hat. I also use a few add on percussion instruments, clave, tamborine, wood block etc.

This enables me to have all the tools in my arsenal to cover most musical styles. Certainly the ones I enjoy playing anyhow. Even when I play a smaller venue, I sometimes will bring my complete kit as described above, which is a bit intimidating to most people who have not heard me play. Once they hear me play however, I usually put them at ease.

Bottom line- I like having the tools in my arsenal. Walk softly but carry a big stick!!

Drummer Jim

I saw Billy Cobham live playing only a snare, hi hat, kick drum and 1 cymbal switching off right to left handed. Sounded like 2 drummers. Phenomenal! It's not the amount of drums but how they are used.

John

I have worked with a lot of drummers and can sum it up. "It is not the size that counts it is how you use it BUT if you have a big one and know how to use it then that is best"

Yep you cannot beat a good drum as one of my old drummers used to say. LOL.