JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Industry Message Forum CD being sold on Amazon w/o permission

Thanks to Google Alerts, I noticed my album "Impulse Prime" is being sold on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Impulse-Prime-Zircon/dp/B000CA8BF4

I have never signed any sort of deal with Amazon. My only distributor is CDBaby which has no parternship with Amazon as far as I'm aware. Also, it is priced at $18.49 on Amazon, but I sell it for $11.99 on CDBaby. I don't want people to get the wrong idea and think my stuff is overpriced, not to mention if I have no deal or agreement with Amazon, how would they even pay me?

Any advice appreciated!

Thanks for the heads up.. they're selling mine for 39.99...I emailed the dude and suggested he take it off immediately.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_m/103-2485503-9215019?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=louis+twinn&Go.x=8&Go.y=6&Go=Go

Amazon must have a physical copy of your cd to sell it. Did you mail them one?

No I didn't mail them anything..
I posted a big review on the product page, that oughta fix them.

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copywrite infringement do not buy, March 11, 2007
Reviewer: Louis B. Twinn (Brookwood, Alabama United States) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)
This person is illegally selling this product. I am the author, and did not approve of this....

I did not mail Amazon anything either. Also, there are two people selling my CD via the auction/storefront system. Neither of them actually bought my CD.

Here's what I suspect. These people list our CDs but they don't actually have a copy. When it gets ordered, they buy it (cheap) from CDBaby or whatever other site we sell at, then sell it to the customer at a huge markup. It's the only explanation that makes sense.`

or they stream it on an I-pod, hook it to their computer and re-record using software straight onto their computer for download... It works.. I searched the whole site looking for how to complain about it, it's a jungle, can't find anywhere to complain.

Did you check with CD Baby. The in store distribution appears to be through Super D. They are a wholesaler I think. I looked at their site a while back and I think any company can use them, even mail order and internet stores.
They may have ordered it through them. Might be they are just fishing and if they get a sale then they would order it. From what I read Amazon has a 4 to 6 week delivery. that would give them plenty of time to obtain it.

Just a thought.

Edit
From what I read the stores buy it from Super D(who marks it up a few dollars) then they resell it. They can charge anything they want.
Edit
Also, Super D buys the cd outright, at a price you have set for them. their deal is with stores that use them as a distributor so CD Baby doesn't seem to be involved after it goes to Super D

If you ever had a deal with The Orchard, then that might be what is going on. They are notorious for selling your stuff all over the place without notice or compensation. If you read all the fine print in their "deal" you'll see that you gave them permission to do so. It's sleazy but they've been doing it for years. If you've never done business with the Orchard, then I would raise major hell with Amazon.

Brian

Naw, never dealt with orchard, finally found a link to complain to with amazon...

oh and it's not just me and zircon.. the guys got a whole store of independent cd's.

I just checked Amazon.com and found out that my CD, Sheltering Wind is also being sold there. VERY disturbing. Ironically, I looked into setting up a legitimate account with them to sell my CD's when it was first released, and decided not to do it 'cause it was too expensive. I have NEVER mailed Amazin.com my CD !!!!!

When I saw that some of the CD's are being sold used,I was even more enraged. AND, they are being sold from Tennessee. Weird.
The guy says he's selling one of them used - "bought it once to copy."

Well....I have my owrk cut out for me. I will let you guys know what my game plan is.

Emily

Here's what I just emailed to Amazon.com:

I am VERY distressed to discover that you are illegally selling my CD, Sheltering Wind, on Amazon.com, and doing it without my permission. This means your are pocketing MY profits.

I NEVER authorized this, and I demand that you take it off of your site IMMEDIATELY.
If you do not respond, I will take further action and contact law enforcement and the press about this. Thank you.

Emily Sanders

Good for you Emily..

OK...I just spoke with a customer service rep at Amazon.

Here's the contact information for Amazon:

Legal Dept. Fax# 1-206-266-7010
Corporate Offices 1-206-266-2992
Public Relations- 1- 266-7180
Founder of Amazom.com - Jeff Bezos His email ECR@amazon.com

Legal Dept. address: P.O. Box 81226, Seattle, Wash. 98108

I am going to follow through on this. They claim that my record company sent them my CD, which they did not. Should be interesting to see what happens.

Will keep you posted.
Wonder how many of my CD's I didn't get paid for.

Emily

MOre...

On Amazon, it said that my CD's are being shipped from Tennessee.
The person from Tenness who is bootlegging my CD saysd he played iit once and that it is in great condition, and that he bougt it tto copy it.

I did sell a few CD's at Pineyfest a few years ago.

I sold a few CD's this year from folks in Tennessee.

This whole thing is quite distressing.

Emily

P.S. I was never with Orchard. Yes, I plan to investigate this.

I've never had a deal with ORCHARD, and mine is one there too...they are NOT (at least AMAZON proper) selling these illegally or without your permission (in my opinion)...I can't believe the conclusion something underhanded and evil is going on was jumped to so fast!!! I think you guys are going way overboard...Read Bill Robinson's post. I think he hit it right on the head. This has something to do with the CD being for sale through CDBABY. And probably just what he said, through the Super D deal. You would almost surely get paid the markup you have on CDBABY, by CDBABY, if one of these sold through AMAZON proper. They would get it from the CDBABY warehouse almost certainly too, they surely don't stock these elsewhere. You put your CD on CDBABY for sale, and their job is to sell it, and they have made far flung deals with major people to do so, so why would this bother you? And why would AMAZON do something nefarious?

As far as the auction/storefront entities, that may be a different story. If they are possibly bootlegging especially. Most of these dudes are just doing what someone else suggested, advertising the CD for SALE/AUCTION, and they would fullfil from CDBABY by buying at retail just as a customer would. These people almost surely do not have a deal in writing with CDBABY, but then, who is going to buy a domestic CD at $39 or $49 dollars? And, just because they don't have a deal with CDBABY doesn't necessarly make it illegal or wrong...the legal part you will have to ask a lawyer...but why would AMAZON allow it?

Except in the case of the possible bootlegging Emily thinks is going on, I don't see what the big deal is...

Lizst,

I can't control the bootlegging or used CD's for sale. What bothers me...is that a NEW copy is being sold for a much bigger price than CD Baby.

I will try to find out if CD Baby sent my CD's to Amazon.
Amazon claims that my record company sent the CD's, NOT CD Baby. I know for a fact that they didn't. hmmm.....

Emily

I suggest buying one and seeing what you get. If it's a bootleg copy, then you have legal grounds to take action. If it's just a copy bought and resold via CD Baby, I am not sure anything can be done. If someone legitimately buys something, they have the right to re-sell it for any price they want and keep any profits they can get. That's just reality of being part of the commercial world. Used CD's as well. The only way it could be a crime is if the copies are being distributed and you aren't getting compensation (which many folks have complained about with the Orchard) or it's a bootleg fake copy that is being sold which is clearly illegal.

Brian

Well, mine's there too, at nearly forty bucks a pop, here's where I get suspicious. I can't hardly sell these coasters...I mean cds, at twenty bucks apiece. There's no market for Mike Dunbar cds as collector's items...maybe after I'm dead and the world discovers my genius. So, here's my suspicion: if this guy just lists a bunch of these without actually buying any, just copying the artwork from cdbaby, then gets orders from the artists themselves looking to see if it's a bootleg, he could possibly sell hundreds...dozens from the JPFers alone. Noticed in the ad he said two used, but I didn't notice a used one for sale, any of you see a used one for sale?

Could be the deal...I'd say don't buy one yet, first a call to Derek would be in order which I'll do Monday.

If that's the scam, it's brilliant...wish I thought of...uh...I mean...what a scoundrel.


All the Best,
Mike

Emily, I don't think CDBABY or anybody actually sent a CD to AMAZON.com to stock. I think CDBABY or SUPER D or somebody CDBABY works with has simply sent the purchasing information to AMAZON.com. And AMAZON adds their markup to the sale. If sold, the CD would come from the CDBABY warehouse. Similar to the TOWER deal with CDBABY. Tower records didn't actually stock the CD's, they were simply a storefront, and they sold the CD's at a markup from the retail price on CDBABY. So that Tower made money. But they fullfilled the order through CDBABY...

I've thought about the higher price thing some more...I think Brian is right, that is just part of being in the retail world...with a major label, the artist (or the label for that matter) doesn't really control the end selling price. In fact, I think that might be illegal to do so in certain cases. They provide the CD to retail outlets and the retail outlets set the prices. It's the fan's jobs to know who to buy from to get a good deal. They are the ones to find out if they can get it cheaper at WALMART than the local record store (if there are any more of those). If I buy your CD at AMAZON, and then find out later I can get it $10 cheaper at CDBABY or someplace else, I'm mad at myself and at AMAZON, not you. And I've also learned to beware of AMAZON's prices, and to shop around. If AMAZON prices themselves out of the market, that's their problem, not yours...

As far as RECORD COMPANY /= (not equal) to CDBABY. AMAZON probably just has the semantics wrong...plus, if I remember right, in some of the sign up stuff at CDBABY, a lot of the times there was a place that most people would list CDBABY as the record company...like if you bought the BAR CODE from CDBABY, for once instance I can think of...

Maybe that will help you feel better...now, about the possible bootlegging, Brian has a good idea...

We had a similar experience that makes me agree with LisztLaughing.

My wife had a first recording, self-published on tape cassette, several years ago. We eventually burned a CD from the DAT, sold and gave away a few, finally signed up with CD Baby with no intention to sell it, only stream it. (pre-soundclick. We had streaming off the old mp3.com, and were looking for another streaming opportunity, just so venues could click through a few songs.) Called it "Rough Cuts" on purpose, more like high quality demo material, limited instrumentation, etc. CD Baby got from us one copy, home burned, with a paper label and stuck in a paper sleeve. As noted above, as a title, it would have been listed to CD Baby partners. The point is, nobody has a commercially viable copy of this CD, yet it too turns up for $40 from 2 different vendors. By the way, the possiblity of being ripped off by someone who streams, saves, and burns would be almost non-existent here. My wife has a solid local reputation, but is way under the radar everywhere else. There's no money to be made. I'm sure Norah Jones is being ripped off in the manner described.

Any of you who have looked into internet marketing generally, not only as applies to music promotion, will have found that there is a new kind of nitwit out there, who has nothing to sell but has devoted gallons of midnight oil to linking products that they hope to skim pennies off. This is becoming a pet peeve for me, since their bogus link pages show up all the time, muddying your search results. Search Engine Optimization, a variation on spam. Sitting in your little apartment in Tennessee, trying to outsmart Google.

I've sometimes ordered a video game or a piece of software from the amazon resellers, only to have it delayed until they could find something to send me. And since they're going to go to all that trouble, might as well charge $40. Fishing it is, but due diligence requires the complaints and inquiries mentioned above. ***I have also had excellent experiences with the private amazon stores.

Now I'm thinking about ordering one, to see what happens. But even as I write this, I'm about 90% 'why bother?'

Well I haven't sold one cd of roundhouse recordings vol. II, and the guy has feedback from satisfied customers that bought it, several.. only way he could've got it is by capturing the stream..

I'll bet the feedback is bogus. Who's going to buy my cd for forty bucks? My mom's no longer with us so that leaves...no one. Any cds you buy will just go into this guy's pocket and I'll guarantee it's not a bootleg, just one he bought from cdbaby acting like a broker.

Now, how to get him? Maybe fraud. Saying he's got used cd's when, like Kazoomeister, you can prove he doesn't. But first, you've got to find him.

Razzy Bailey has hundreds of honest to goodness bootleggers, not just trolling brokers (hey, that's a song. Trolling brokers, a bunch of midnight jokers, sitting on the net to make a buck, trolling brokers, playing online poker, looking for a patsy they can...fool). Anyway, where was I...Oh! Razzy has hundreds. Do a search on Razzy Bailey music and you'll find a long list, 99.9% of which will never benefit Razzy. The problem is, it costs so much in time and money to fight them. Once in a while one of the slimeballs gets busted.

In the meantime, I'm not sending a penny to the joker, I will contact Amazon and cdbaby tomorrow, though.

Mike

I really think you ought to finish that "trolling brokers song"

Well, this has been going on for a while. Here's my post from January: http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthr...t&topic=0&Search=true#Post462914
I've also found my CD listed on German Porn sites. Hey, Google sent me there and other wierd foreign music sites. I don't think anyone making any money off of me though. I wish I was.

Hmm, did a little research, and according to a post by one of the CDBaby staff;

"Super D does indeed handle online retailers such as Amazon, etc. And, no, it's not a conflict of interests. We want to HELP musicians, not hinder them.

So, yes, online retailers that aren't being supplied by brick & mortar distributors will list your titles via Super D, from the CD Baby deal."

That's frustrating. I understand that it's common for retailers to buy goods at normal price and sell at a markup, but I didn't opt-in for Super D to sell my stuff to online distributors. I was going to try and sell w/ Amazon myself and keep the price lower.

Welcome to the interenet. LOL.

Louis, run with it, add some, take some away.

: ) may just do that..

HOLD IT... STOP THE MUSIC. Out of curiosity I checked Amazon. I sent them two of my cds last year to sell. Besides their add which reads"Only two left" at $12.95, there are two other listings. A company called Harvey Auctions is selling my cd for $39.99, and a dirtbag called Princess Media is selling MY cd for $44.99. Something screwy going on here.

While I don't really know how all this might be happening I do have a thought(dangerous, I know)

First I would ask where might this person have gotten a full stream of the CD? Do you have it posted somewhere on the net?
CD Baby only has a 2 minute stream so it could'na been there.

This is the reason why I have been considering no longer posting full stream of my songs. Anyone can steal your music if it is a full stream.
If it is being played by a radio station(Net or Terrestrial) they can still get it but it would be only one song, Not the entire CD.

I have been saying this lately and it seems to be falling on deaf ears. You post a full stream of your CD anywhere and someone is gonna steal it. You cannot stop it.

Sure, you get exposure but at what cost?

My wife and daughter have a subscription to apple I tunes, so they can download, stream whatever.. the guy might have a subscription, would be worth it to him to get hold of a lot of people's music.

You are absolutely right Louis.
In that case you can do nothing about it except take legal action.

If this person made a legal download from I-tunes and then replicated the CD for sale he is a thief.
But, you can go to any flea market in the country and buy bootleg CD's. It is part of the game.
Sad but true

The only good thing about it is he at least had to pay you once for it.

Oh, man, if I were listed on German porn sites, I would consider it a tremendous opportunity. I would put banners on my Website (once I had one), and on Soundclick and MySpace, proclaiming "As Seen On German Porn Sites!" Might even change the cover of the CD, too.

With the Amazon (&c.) sales, if they're doing what I think they are, it's not a ripoff. There are a lot of retail Websites that actually have no product; when you order something from them, they just get it from whoever has it, mark it up and send it to you. Sometimes they'll even have the actual vendor send it to you directly (with their name on it, of course). If the actual vendor was (say) CDBaby, you made your money.

One of my first experiences buying on line was five books, that I bought all from one company all at one time. (I think it was Amazon, but I don't remember.) The 5 books arrived in 5 separate (and different) packages, that had been shipped from 5 different locations (all with the company's name on the label, however). Did the company actually have the books in stock? I doubt they had any "stock" at all; they just knew where they could get it, and how to make a little money off the deal.

As a city manager, I ran into one traffic-sign company that operated this way. I visited their place (a surprisingly teeny little place, not much more than an office and a shipping department). When you ordered a traffic sign, they sent you a bill--which, being a responsible entity, you would pay right away; once they had your money, they had *somebody else* actually make the sign. I mostly didn't deal with this company after I learned that; it was cheaper (though not always easier) to deal directly with the company that was doing the actual sign-making. But a lot of people still do order from 'em, and the company does quite a lot of business.

A lot of business is conducted on the Internet in this fashion, by people who are nothing more than professional middlemen, taking advantage of the fact that you-the-buyer haven't a clue where the stuff you order is really coming from. From my end, as the guy who wrote the songs and made the CDs, I don't (and can't) care who sells it or how much they sell it for, as long as what's getting sold is one of the CDs I made and I get paid for it.

Now, bootlegging is a different matter. There, the writer, artist, et al., are *not* getting paid, and that's illegal, and immoral, and should be stopped and punished, yada yada. *If* you can catch the perps, which on the Internet is a very difficult thing to do. If it happened to me (which it hasn't--I am not famous enough), and I couldn't control it, I would try to take advantage of it somehow, if I could. Like with the German porn sites.

Joe

Just a thought
Is there any reason you cannot go on the site and leave a comment in the review section stating that this person is selling your music without your authorization?
Or wording it even stronger.

I guess he doesn't like me, I ain't there, LOL

I recently sold a complete cd download on Payplay through cdbaby. So it is possible to download and copy. But like Mike insinuated who would pay $44.99 for my cd? Ben

Joe's hitting the nail on the head. There is no money in bootlegging an unknown artist's cds. Why do it?

On Times Square, they're not trying to sell you bootleg copies of unknown watches and purses, they try to sell fake Gucci's and Rolex's. They don't sell bootleg copies of unknown art house movies, they sell copies of the big Hollywood hits.

This is a Trolling Broker (tm 2007 Mike Dunbar). As Joe says, these folks don't have copies of the cds. They say "used" as a come on, my theory, as I've stated, is that they want you to think they're bootlegging so you'll buy one of your cds from them at an inflated price for proof. If so, that's fraud, they don't have a copy, they don't want a copy.

You can go to an independent cd distributor and offer to buy cds for, let's say, a buck and a half. Offer to take all they'll sell you at a buck and a half apiece. They'll sell you truckloads. Then take them home and try to sell them online for forty bucks? Well, what's the difference.

Nobody's going to buy unknown cds for forty bucks a crack. They're not even going to buy known cds for forty bucks a crack unless they're collectors items. Are you getting people emailing you begging you for your cds because they can't get them? Have you sold out at cdbaby? If not, then why worry about this? Now, maybe we can get Amazon to do something about one guy, but the practice will continue just like those emails about some Nigerian countess who wants you to cash her ten thousand dollar check and she'll give you two thousand. You can stop one, but others pop up.

In the meantime, I'm going to have a sale on my cds. You can buy them at cdbaby for twenty bucks, but this week only I'll sell them to you for thirty five...that's five bucks off of Amazon's price. Come and get 'em.

Mike

He probably ripped my streams off soundclick, haven't sold a complete cd. Yeah, I left a comment in the review section telling everyone he's a crook..but a crook with good taste

I am thinking of putting statement on my web site that says something like, "Please buy my CD from CD Baby - their high quality, integrity and honesty should be supported!"
P.S. It will be interesting to see what Derek from CD Baby says.

Emily

The guy who is selling my CD's on Amazon is from Tennessee...I sincerely hope it isn't anyone I know.

I just emailed CD Baby. Should be interesting to see what the reponse is!

Emily

Hey traffic at my cd baby page, has picked up since this thread started, lol..

It seems that most people who posted about Amazon have one thing in common, Harvey Auctions and Princess Media are trying to sell their cds at inflated prices without their permission. I can't explain how Amazon got their cds either. I gave Amazon permission to sell mine but not the other two companys. If they don't have the phsyical cd as they claim how can that be legal? Emily is a different story, though I don't know how Amazon got her cd it looks like someone else is trying to sell a used one (very cheap by the way). Rest assured Emily it is not me. My copy of "Sheltering Wind" is sitting on my dresser as I write. Ben

Mike, thanks for explaining it. I was about to twist off.

Coasters. Yep. I've still got 6 box of coasters sitting in Josh's old closet. I was about to offer the slimeballs a good deal on a case. I'm kidding, of course. It requires such effort to get something for nothing. They need to get a real job.

LOL, Ben, I NEVER suspected someone as honest as you!!

Emily

Kazoo,

You've nicely summed up a concept I have had for a long time but couldn't properly put into words. Not sure if this is your original thought, but if so, I am stealing it! = )

"Search Engine Optimization, a variation on spam"

Brian

Brian,
Go Dude! If something's going to get stolen, looks like this is the thread to steal it on!

As far as I know, it rolled into my head on its own. Anybody remember the (best) Fugs album, "It Crawled into My Hand...Honest?" Something like that.

Ed

Ever hear of Blizzard Records?I believe that was the name.They had a legal site selling CDs with no stock.I dealt with them until they were a bit slow sending my money.How it worked was,I sent them one CD,they would put it up for sale on their site,when they got an order for one,they would email me giving the address to ship to,I would ship and they would send me my share of the money,they kept their share.Worked well,everyone was happy,at least for a while, until they said that they sent me my money but it never came, I had to bug them to send it,they finally did but I had lost trust in them and broke off the deal. It might be possible that the cheque was lost in the mail,but I had to fight to get them to issue a new one,ticked me off,so I canceled.

I liked their arrangement,they could take credit card orders which I could not and I was not,at the time,with Pay Pal.I believe they are still in business,maybe I should look them up again.

Everett

"There's something going on here, But you don't know what it is, Do you, Mr. Jones?" Bob Dylan.

How? Why? I'd just keep watching your Amazon sites and see if they sell at $40+ bucks. If they do, then you need to get on there and offer yours at a competitive price, say $36.99. Who knows? Maybe you're a cult figure in Bubbalicia, Albania, or Porn, Germany. Are any of your songs about trains going into tunnels? People get distorted and see things that aren't there. And, if it's driving people to your sites, odds are they're not doing you any harm, unless they sell thousands. Lookers could easily find your reasonably priced CDs, so that's not likely.

Trolling Brokers © 2007 by Mike Dunbar
Trolling brokers, a bunch of midnight jokers,
sitting on the net to make a buck,
trolling brokers, playing online poker,
looking for a patsy they can...fool.

Sons-o'-bitches, tryin' to get into my britches.
Damn fools ought to know they're out o' luck!
Lurk in cyber-shadows, lusting for my riches.
Trolling Brokers, Lookin' for a patsy they can...fool.

It's time somebody, Took they ass to school.
Teach 'em naughty, Ain't so nice to do.
And what it feels like, when you get...fooled.
Trollin' Brokers, make 'em wear the chokers,
Midnight hoaxsters, sellin' coasters, Trollin' Brokers.

Trolling brokers, honest money soakers,
Hiding 'neath the bridge to make a buck,
Trolling brokers, meet the law revokers,
You left a paper trail and now you're...just a fool.
(Order now on Amazon. Supplies unlimited $49.99 until I get caught.)

lol.. trolling brokers... man that's good..

Tricia:
Well you know, I've also got a box or two of my "Featured on German Porn Sites" CD, so although I couldn't put a buck to JPF, I'm always willing to trade CDs with any of you good JPF people for yours. Heck of a deal, considering it would cost you $37
(28.0547 EUR) and you're soul or at least you're eyesite if you went to that German webpage

I'm bothered that there are 3 sites undercutting my real Amazon price for a NEW CD. I suspect these are promo CDs that were sent to some radio or review sources that then sell the unopened CDs to some kind of broker.

And what's the deal with only charging a penny for a used CD? Talk about a blow to the ego!

Can't prove it... but I think that's where all my weird CD sellers came from. Just a thought.

I don't have any of the high priced ones like some of you...and we're on CD Bab y as well.