JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum VH1 Contest for Original Singers/Songwriters

thanks to the JPF community for allowing this post...

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VH1 Contest for Original Singers/Songwriters - www.talentload.tv
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Are You an Original Singer or Songwriter?

Inspired by the upcoming romantic comedy Music and Lyrics, VH1 and Warner Bros. are offering aspiring songwriters the chance to be heard with "Your Music, Your Lyrics," a contest starting Tuesday, Dec 26 and running through Jan. 20.

Contestants can write, record and upload an original love song to
http://www.talentload.tv/musicandlyrics

Winners get a TRIP to LA for the movie premiere and also get their song professionally recorded for the DVD release.

This is NOT actually the VH1 on TV, correct?

Not only VH1 (yes, on TV), but also also MTV - the next contest will be for Making the Band.

Wow, this is actually pretty cool everyone...check it out...there's all kinds of stuff

What is the cost to enter? I can't find it on the web site.

Emily

This isn't connected to the bogus VH1 song contest as far as I can tell. In fact, maybe Random Girlie can check into that some time! = )

Brian

I'm wondering if you retain all the rights to the songs if you do this. Do you know Random? Are you giving anything away by uploading?

Herbie

I was excited at first. But, I think this is bad mambo!

Upon entry, MTVN shall become the sole and exclusive owner of the Song Entry submission, with all right, title and interest thereto. MTVN shall have the sole and exclusive right to exploit the Song Entry submission, and to license others to do so, in its sole discretion, in whole or in part, in all media, now known or hereafter devised, throughout the world in perpetuity, with the right to use, alter and modify the Song Entry submission in any manner that MTVN may determine for any purpose whatsoever without any compensation to the entrant. By submitting the Song Entry, entrants warrant that the Song Entry, and all elements contained therein, are original with entrant, or have been fully cleared by entrant and that neither the video submission, nor MTVN’s uses thereof will infringe on any rights or trademarks of any person or entity. Entrants furthermore confirm that, to the best of their knowledge, any statements made in connection with the Song Entry will be true and not violate or infringe on any third party’s rights.

http://musicandlyrics.talentload.tv/doc/Rules

UUUGggghhhhhh------

YUCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK

Work SO hard then give it away

I'm with you on this one, Herbie.
This is NOT something I am going to do.

Emily

If what you say is accurate then no one should enter this. Perhaps the VH1 rep can confirm or deny?

Brian

I just cut and pasted the contest rules on the website.
Also gave the link for all to read.
If you tell me how to get in contact with the rep, I'll take it on.

Yeah, the rules make it sound like you're giving up all ownership, which does nothing, or very little, for your career or bank account. If you have a pop diva style tune you could throw away without missing it, you could try it and make your own publicity about it if you won, unless their rules forbid that. What the hell's my motive to participate? This is so one-sided it ain't funny. Who the hell's in charge over there anyway, Attila the Hump? I told a Scottish lass about it because her songs fit the bill perfectly. Fortunately she doesn't have video capability so she didn't get tangled into it. Thanks for the research folks.

Reading those rules gives me chills. Perhaps they have good intentions, but this isn't the way to promote something. They want folks to get interested in the movie.. so why steal someone's song for nothing in return? Bad bad bad.

Brian

Boy, the devil's in the details, huh.?..You really have to be careful. They make it seem very attractive then....wham

hey guys, sorry I am late to answering this - I posted the original call for entries.

A lot of people have been asking the same questions in the message boards on the Talenttload.tv site. This contest is a bit tricky because it does involve distribution on the Warner Brother's DVD release - that is where talk about compensation is not solely a VH1 decision.

I dont have the answer for you, but I will repost once I have the best answer from our legal team - if the rules are such, I am sure there was a cause for it. Either way, I seek clarification.

Thanks for your patience. We really think the songs on the site are really great - only ONE song will win, hopefully we bring exposure to the others just because the site exists.

Will repost.

Hi Random

thanks for coming back...It really makes the contest unattractive if you lose all your rights to your song because you entered it, ya know?????? I mean, it's OUR song, our heart and soul...oh I'll GIVE it you VH1 for the right to enter your contest...

Herbie

I am going to ask Stu to take a look at that language and let us know if it's as bad as it looks.

Brian

Hey All,

Wouldn't there be broadcast royalties paid, as the song is ( or should be recieving ) airplay ? or do you give the songwriters credits away too ? Perhaps it's meant to read "retains publishing rights, with no advance paid up front ,which wouldn't be so bad.

Another part reads "Judging Panel/Winner Selection: A panel of judges comprised of VH1 panelists and and members of the American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers (ASCAP) will select one (1) grand prize winner......."

Would ASCAP allow one of their members to sign over the rights of one of their songs for a "prize" ?

Wouldn't Waner Bros have to pay mechanicals on the DVD release to the writer ? ( Guess not, if you sign all rights away )

Doesn't ASCAP strictly prohibit the solicitation of material being signed over to it's members ( I guess Warner Bros is a publishing member ) by a non-member, where the ASCAP member is using their position as leveredge ? ( I'm sure that's in their articles of association )

Sounds strange ?

cheers, niteshift

Further comment....

The song is to be professionally recorded at a cost of $1,200 , which is a little stingy on the behalf of a major label, but OK, so be it. Only problem, the artist can't even use that recording, as all rights have been signed away.

I wonder what sort of print run they are contemplating for the DVD release, that's a lot of mechanicals given away at 0.09c a pop if the rules are read as written.

cheers, niteshift

Seems pretty draconian to me. I don't see much benefit to the songwriter except possibly some publicity, and personally, I wouldn't do it without first considering the cost/benefit analysis - as in whether it's worth it to give away all control in return for some possible (no guarantee) publicity, or whether there are better ways to exploit my compositions.

Hey Stu,

Yes, it all seems to be about free publicity in return for zero financial return to the writer. The song, from what I read is an extras filler on a DVD, so would it even be viewed ?

I would reckon the winning song would be prettty damn good from all the entries submitted, so do you want to give away all rights to one of your best songs ?

It's up to the writer I guess.

cheers, niteshift

The trouble isn't even what happens for the winner. At least they get SOMETHING. But anyone who enters this (i.e. 100? 1000? more?) songwriters have just given up all their rights to their own work for ZERO. ZERO. Let me say it again: ZERO.

Sadly I found out one of our major JPF Award winners entered this and even with the full knowledge she had given up 100% of her award winning song, she said she was fine with that on the mere hope of getting some attention. She also thinks that because they don't have her signature they can't really take it all in reality. I hope she's right, but I don't read it that way according to their rules/guidelines. It doesn't appear as though Stu reads it that way either.

It's quite possible that the folks at VH1 have no ill intent.. but an asset is an asset and I can't see a coporation with stockholders giving back an asset that they got for nothing in full view of anyone who read the agreement.

Brian

Hey Brian,

You mean they hold the rights to the ENTRIES as well ? That does seem way over the top.

cheers, niteshift

PS -you're right, it says "upon entry submission....." You can't tell me a large corporation such as this is serious ? Wouldn't that mean they would hold the copyright to thousands of songs which they get for free ?

Precisely why I didn't enter.

Jody

I guess that just leaves me with 2 question, not that I would enter a contest.
Why do they want to keep the rights to a song and what do they do with them?

Not that they are doing legal wrong, but that sounds a bit pyramidy.

Matt

Nice cheap ( very cheap ) way to build up a publishing catalogue.

cheers, niteshift

I'm not sure they are intentionally overreaching in developing these contest rules. They probably just tried to develop some wording that would prevent a contest entrant from coming back at them later and claiming that the contest company was doing something with the song without permission. An additional problem that nobody seems to be considering is ongoing implications of entering into a contest such as this. For example, if the song is good enough to eventually become part of a publishing deal, or you get a recording contract and you want to use it, you can't assume that the contest company has abandoned its rights even though they never did anything with the song. Each of those deals (publishing, demo, recording, etc.) usually requires that the artist/composer sign an indemnification agreement stating that there are no prior incumbrances on the music. In other words, you have to represent in writing that you have the complete rights to exploit the song. Maybe it's been six years since you entered the contest and the contest company didn't do anything with your song, but you still can't sign the subsequent agreement because to do so would be an outright misrepresentation. It would have been better if the contest rules included a time limit for their ownership of your song. Otherwise, before you sign the subsequent deal, your attorney is going to be charged with the task of trying to get a written reversion of the rights from the contest company, which is going to cause an inordinate delay, (if he/she can get if for you at all).

Stu,
Some great points you brought up! I suppose it wouldn't be so bad if only the "Grand Prize" winner would win the prizes, recogniztion and publicity in return for "giving up" his/her song rights, but what really bothers me is that all the "losers" could have a real hassle trying to get their songs back through a written "reversion of the rights" from the contest company. They should state right up front that if your song isn't used, you immediately get back all your rights.

Even for the winner(s), isn't there some "loop hole" they can use to still record & sell their song without having to pay mechanicals to the contest company? That would only seem fair, right? For example, if an artist plays that song at all their concerts and then sells CDs with that contest winning song.

BTW, the same site also runs another contest, something about "Making The Band".
Those rules are on this page:
http://talentload.tv/doc/Audition
Item # 10. talks about a Non-Exclusive License.
That agreement seems much more reasonable than what was quoted above.

Seems like "talentload.tv" is running a number of similar kinds of song/band contests and each one has it's own rules and terms.
It would be better and less confusing if all those contests had the same (but fair) terms instead of entirely varied and different terms.

Michael

Other forms of mass media seem to be in this mode, also. Both BBC and CNN websites, and probably every other newsite out there now encourage people to submit videos of newsworthy items. Of course they do not pay a dime for them and you have to agree to give it away. It is no surprise that the media conglomerates are trying to weedle free work of others. They will succeed, too, because people are so keen on getting their shot at the brass ring.

You need to let people make their own choices about contests they choose to enter. I have entered a gazillion songwriting contests and haven't lost any of the rights to my songs yet. I have won 15 national awards. Had independent artists record my songs, even a song considered for a major movie awhile back that didn't pan out. Sometimes it is NOT about the money people. It is about the love of music... the love of the art of it, and wanting to bless another person with your songs. Let's face it, how many people on here are really making the "BIG BUCKS" doing it??? I think we have a bunch of paranoid people on here. I am the one who entered a video on the VH1. I don't have a problem with it. I am willing to throw it all out there. You can't sit back and think you got some hot song and sit at home with a stack of lyrics and a tape recorder and think you will be found sitting there so paranoid that someone is going to steal your hot song. So I took a chance? So what?? At least I could get a little support for doing it. Thank goodness I have other people that believe in me. Let the chips fall where they may.

Hey Tamera,

They're good comments you have posted, but I think the main point to be made here is the issue of fairness. It is usual for any media company to hold the publishing rights, but not the songwriters rights also. In essence, a 50/50 split is usual business practice, to which no-one has any objection. Even if the Grand Prize Winner was to get zip, that's OK if there is free publicity and the chance of further career progression.

What is not fair or reasonable for the ENTRANTS, is to sign over ALL rights and recieve absolutely nothing in return, forever.

I don't think I could stand hearing one of my numbers on radio, while sitting there fuming that I was diddled out of the small payments which are due to the songwriter.

It is not usual business practice, and one would hope that the wording is one of oversight rather than deliberate intent.

I'm sure everyone here gives you the most support Tamera, and in giving that support, wish the very best for you. That is precisely why a number of people here are a little gobsmacked ( not paranoid ) at the terms and conditions of entry. If your work has value, then that value should be recognised, and not given away for free.

Best of luck with your entry,

cheers, niteshift

Jack,
Good point about the motives of the mass media conglomorates!

Ideally every creater, writer, author and artist should protest (all on the same day?!) or maybe avoid all "unfair" kinds of contests and exploits.

But... the bottom line is that it's a free market and as long as people make free choices (which they have a right to) they can enter into all kinds of contracts as long as the terms are understood and agreed upon.

Generally I think people need to make their own choices about the contests they choose to enter, or not enter. Same holds true for working with various agents, managers, publishers, pitchers, promoters, licensing services, studios and so forth. There are lots of options and what's best for one artist or band may not work as well (or at all) for others.

In the case of VH1, they aren't forcing anyone to sign up for their contests and probably what they're doing is perfectly within normal legal limits. It would take an act of congress to change the laws to tip in favor of all the artists that would love to get the expore without having to lose any of their publishing rights. Who knows, maybe that could happen some day.

Meanwhile, I won't lose much sleep over it!

Michael

Niteshift,
Great post and I agree 100%!
You handled this one very well, and I totally agree on your observation that... it's not the usual practice, and one would hope that the wording is one of oversight rather than deliberate intent.

More research will be needed to discover the unarmed truth of the matter with their wording. It's one of those things that serious attorneys might research when they have the time and interest. It's not my expertise, but I'm sure these kind of 'big business' contest rules are wide-spread enough now to get plenty of attention around the internet.

I'm curious and would like to learn, not to mention just as concerned & interested as the rest of the folks here.

Thanks for chiming in and posting your thoughts!
Michael

As far as I am concerned, I know my opinion will not sway the world one way or the other, and I do not care who chooses to give away their work since it is theirs to do so. I do not mind sharing my opinions, just like everyone else who joined this topic, but I do not tell anyone what to do or not do.

Tamera, good luck to you. I hope you get exactly what you want out of it.

Sorry Jack , don't get your point ?

cheers, niteshift

I am sorry, I was not clear. I was really responding to Tamera where she said "you need to let people make their own choices." She posted right after I did, and I did not know if she felt like I was criticizing others for participating in the VH1 event and giving away her work.

Hey, I am sorry if I sounded harsh. Let's not have any hard feelings here. Okay? Let's just try to wish each other well on whatever avenue we are pursuing with our songs. I appreciate your support. I appreciate the fact that we can all have different opinions. (Just like with religion, it can be touchy to be different than someone else and believe differently but we all have to live together in peace) I think we can all share advice and from there let each individual decide. What concerns me most on here is alot of negativity I have seen towards other companies and songwriting events. This is a big world. Let's be positive and support each other. It is the Christlike thing to do. Does'anyone agree with me?

duplicate post

Tamera,

If you recall in my last email to you, I specifically told you that I was giving you advice as a friend, not as something connected to JPF. But the JPF position HAS to be to inform people what they are ACTUALLY giving up. Once you indicated that you were comfortable giving up all rights to the song simply for the chance to enter it, that was the end of the discussion. But for those who may not understand what that really means, it's important to let them know.

People carelessly enter into agreements all the time. Nearly every digital site these days has an unfair and unreasonable contract you have to sign just to post things on their site. Some have no ill intent, but that doesn't mean they still don't own or control your work anyway. As Stu said above (and Stu IS a qualified Entertainment Attorney) just because this company may not choose to do anything with the music that was entered, it does NOT mean they don't have the contractual agreement to do so later. If someone enters this contest now and 2 years from now is able to license that song somewhere (TV, movie, another contest even) technically they don't have the right to do so and would owe any money collected (plus possible damages) to the new rightful owner which is MTVN. You chose to give the song away, and for you that was fine, but that doesn't mean the majority of others should blindly do the same. Most folks would not choose to do so and most lawyers would caution against doing so. That's what JPF does. The contract is too one sided. Only 1 song can win which means all the other songs will get nothing in return for the rights to their song. Just because YOU believe you can get away with it because you didn't sign a piece of paper doesn't mean others should blindly take that same risk. Whether you like it or not, you no longer control the rights to your song. They do. When this contest is over, you can't sign a deal for it with someone else without violating their rights. Why it makes you angry for that truth to be discussed is unknown. You are fully aware of what you did. Others need to be also so they can make the right decision for themselves.

And for those who emailed me and asked who "Tamera" actually is and what winning song is involved, we didn't reveal or discuss who it was on purpose. If she wants to tell anyone, that is up to her. It's her right to do what she wants with her song and it's our right to discuss the ramifications of signing that deal and give our opinions to our members about what that really means.

Brian

Hey Lin, (? Brian )

Agree with your points, the discussion is primarily about the legal obligations from both parties, and not a judgement decision one way or the other.

JPF, as I see it, is a supportive and informative forum to provide information to assist songwriters.

Issues such as this are based upon legal opionion, and what those who wish to post, know from previous situations to which they have faced.

That information can be accepted or rejected, but in this case is available to others to ( hopefully ) enable to make an informed decision. That decision is up to the individual, and their particular situation.

It's not a personal issue, simply a business issue. Is it correct ? Who knows at this stage, but at least it is discussed and brought into the open.

cheers, niteshift

This thread is simply about KNOWLEDGE....going into something with full UNDERSTANDING...at least as full as possible...It's fantastic to have such knowledgeable people here giving us PERSPECTIVE that we likely couldn't obtain ourselves...
out of which we can each form our own OPINION.

Tamera,
Personally, while I wouldn't have done what you did, I hope you win the whole enchilada!!! I have to tell you, IF I DID give my song away and someone enjoyed it, that is one thing...BUT, if I gave my song away, and other people made nice money on it and I got NOTHING....NOTHING....and I created it---that would truly suck for me (even if I could say my song won, whenever I played it I would OWE THEM MONEY---I'd have to pay THEM to put it on MY CD? MY OWN SONG?). I am not judging you, just telling you MY reality.
The trouble with the people who give it away is that it DOES affect everyone else. If so many people are willing to give it away for free, why would anyone pay for it?? It changes the market and devalues the songs...and the folks who don't want to give it away have less and less opportunity...but maybe that's just where all of this is heading...you know, making horse buggys that people rode in used to bring in big money.
The ONLY personal aspect of all of this is that the give awayers DO affect the ones that don't, and I suppose that could bring a twinge of resentment....other than that, it's strictly business, as most everyone on this thread has stated.

Herbie

Hey Herbie, I am not sure how to take your post. Let's just see what happens. Probably nothing. Have you gone on the site to see that there are over 300 video's? Some leave alot to be desired. Some are rather good. One in particular should win the whole thing and it is NOT mine. I am anxious to see if that one is chosen. I plan on seeing what really happens from that point on. Even if things are stated like they are, one can not always say that how it ends up in the long run. Thanks for saying that you do hope I have a shot. My video is not professional, just me singing at a (of all things) at a Just Plain Folks event. I did it for the fun of it and the exposure. I enjoy my life and I sure enjoy the contests. It's fun for me. Thanks!

I know of one award winning video that won't be added to that contest. I don't give my rights away, just for some possible exposure and no money.

Jody

Agree !

cheers, niteshift

My personal view:

1.) Nobody here tells anyone else what to do, you can always make your own decisions, it's a free country. The idea is to make INFORMED decisions and not go blindly down the path. I would have to say that about 1/3 of my entertainment law practice is made up of artists who weren't really paying attention at some point in their careers, who then have to seek my assistance to try to fix problems that could easily have been avoided (a very expensive process,I might add). It's fine if you want to give away your work, but if you do, don't count on the Courts to find loopholes later when that one song starts to produce income for somebody else and you have to sit on the sidelines and watch that somebody else making all the money from your sweat and effort. If you're really that secure in the fact that you won't care what happens in the future, then by all means, go ahead, make your free choice, and give it away, but you'd better be sure you won't have any regrets(By the way, those who claim they are solely in it for the publicity will note that there is nothing in the quoted rules to say that they even have to give you credit for being the author when they use the song).

2.) As long as authors are willing to give it up for free and enter contests with the kinds of rules being discussed in these posts, there will be no incentive for the contest companies to change their approach. We're all in this together, and we collectively get what we collectively deserve.

Well at least we can agree on one thing here: No one can tell anyone else what to do.

Hi Tamera (or whoever you really are)

I wasn't even trying to tell you what to do, just commented on the thread. The barn door of giving away your songs for exposure is open, and it looks like it's not gonna close. We'll see what happens, you're right. Please keep us advised on what transpires, OK? We will all be interested.

Herbie

Hey Herbie, nice to hear from you again. For starters, my real name is Tamera so there is no secret there. I had to create a new screen name since my old one wasn't working so I used my real name. I have had plenty of posts with my old one too. As far as the video, it is only one song. It is a long shot as with many contests to even win it. I don't think most people on the site are in jeopardy of losing much. No offense. Just take a listen to some of the songs. Sorry...but it is kind of scary. I think they would be paying VH1 to even take them. Like I said, unless something happens, not gonna worry about it. I WILL let you know. I am however in another brand new songwriting contest out of Nashville. I made the top 5 in two catagory's. Grand prize winner is announced in a few days. Winner gets some studio time. Hopefully no one is all bent out of shape over that one. Let's just wait and see who wins. Man I would be rich if I told you how many times I have had things NOT pan out in the music business. Lots of people in the biz saying... hey we are going to give you a call soon. ah ha... ok... Or we might use your song. yada yada yada. I am pretty tough skinned. I don't believe anything until I see it first hand or in writing. Or better yet, show up at my door. haha! I've been doing music for 25 years. You just learn these thing. I hate to be negative. I am now VERY realistic. But one can still dream. My dream is to have one of my songs in a movie. That is the only thing left I really want to do before I die. I am lucky, because everything else I have ever wanted to do. I have already done. If you have a few days, months or years, I could tell ya. Thanks! T

Not that I don't see the benefit in contests for exposure.
But whatever happened to just shopping your stuff around and see where it sticks?
It's far easier to do now in the computer age.
I have the least amount of musicians mentality here.
Contests have always seemed like a game to me.

Up until the 20th century, the musician was always depicted as a lonely soul that trusted few and saved the attention getting for a big show. As well as street musicians with a tin cup.
Maybe my history is off.
But where did this insatiable need to win contests enter the pop culture?

An eccentric soul sitting in their bedroom could not win anything anyway.
Unless they were really good talkers and spent all their time on it.

Anyways, there are people in this post so far that would not give away their music, as well as ones like me that are not out for competition with it.

But the important thing is is it is YOUR work.
I hope you don't regret your decision to give it away.

Matt