JPF Home Page Forums Lyric and MP3 Feedback MP3 Feedback Forum Bad Situation (mp3 & open discussion)

Hi,

It's been quite a while since we had one of our chats
Newer folks here probably didn't know we have them..
So I love hearing everyones thoughts..

I couldn't help but notice on my last post every single person preferred my obscure song recorded in my dining room 14 years ago on an 8 track over a HIT song that was done in a million dollar facility by a popular artist of the time.
And that was one of the better session songs i worked on as far as songs go.. This did get me thinking again and that's dangerous.

Peace & Holiday Blessings
Sub
-------------------------------------------------
The song is on the next thread BELOW!

THE QUESTIONS raised I was thinking about here are

1- You work hard on your music and get frustrated surely but have you really paid your dues? Are you starting to pay them now?

2- Have you been in a situation where you were so close and knew getting back that close again may never happen? Over & over how do you deal aside from "oh you have to just move on"

3- I wonder Is it better to be kinda ignorant?
Does being blind or having over confidence help in this game? Make it at least easier on yourself? How do you sell you to you?

Bad Situation -1991, 8 track analog recorder pictured above.

http://tinyurl.com/y72lpx

Bad Situation


Falcaro ©1991




[This message has been edited by substudio (edited 12-13-2006).]

Sub, love that little teaser chorus. Just fits perfectly.

Whoa, a lot to comment on here - I'm not sure I am up to the challenge . The frustration of pouring your heart, soul and money into your art and getting little in return is almost unbearable. It's no wonder Van Gogh killed himself. But I realized long ago that "success" in music or art usually has little or nothing to do with talent; it is all in the marketing. In that marketing process, the artist herself/himself too becomes a product to be purchased. In any event, it has much more to do with luck than talent and ability. On the other hand, one's creations have little meaning if they aren't shared and appreciated. Art, by definition, must be shared. This forum has really helped fulfill that need of art for me - I'm not sure that millions more listeners would proportionally increase the satisfaction for me (though I would sure like the financial rewards there ).

Enough of my ramblings - on to your new song post. Excellent and impeccable as usual. My favorite line in the song is "I build a barrier between my heart
And the anguish" - wonderful. Obviously, I am enthralled by acoustic guitar work and the parts I hear in this tune are great. The short acoustic break is a tease, but in the background I hear some sweet acoustic guitar work going on. I would really like to hear an all, or mostly, acoustic guitar piece by you! Do you have such a thing around??

Clint

And Iggy and I get to work with Sub again this Sunday!

One sentence says it all sometimes.

John

Sub,

Awesome!

This is one of those deserted island songs!

You know the ones you would take with you if you knew you were going to be stranded for an indeterminable amount of time on a deserted island?

Not so much as to remind yourself that it’s a “Bad Situation” that you are in – all evidence to the contrary!

This song not only rocks but it feels and breathes, ebbs and flows, it's got it all!

It’s not only catchy and a definite “hit” with me, but its’ huge dynamics incorporates almost everything that I would want to hear in one song period!

Sub – you are the master of memorable!

Remember that song you posted about 10 months ago I don’t want to say the name because I won’t be able to get it out of head (hope you understand) it’s serious!

Well I’ve still got that chorus ringing in my head every time your name comes up! It’s not fair!

This song has that same quality, catchy catchy catchy!

Now there is going to be two songs that I hear in my head at any given moment! Oh No!

No lie!

It’s a Sub-conscious conspiracy!

I don’t mind!!!! Cause I'm learning how to handle it!

Fantastic creative effort buddy!

I’m truly blown away!

Accel

Sub,
This is great!
You keep getting better with each song, each new project you do! That's a GOOD Situation!!

Lot's of commercial potential with this track!
Just needs to find the right licensing usage!

Great musical artwork my friend!
Keep it up.

Michael

------------------
The OUTLOOK may often appear bleak, but the UPLOOK is always bright!
Michael Borges
Michael Borges On Violin
Praiseworthy Productions

Hi Sub, What can ya say after what Accel just said here? With me I was totally drawn into "Rain" and now this one ; as there is no pretense, like all of your songs and right off you can feel that. I can only speak for myself and the radio just doesnt do that for me most of the time,back then and even more so now., unless it's something classic..
Questions , you've answered plenty of mine so I'll try to at least in part return the favor
1) I've almost come to accept that I'll always be "paying my dues" in one way or another, does the day ever come when we dont have to? Who was it said "I can rest when I"m dead?" (think Scott knows )
2)Never that close , at least on the scale you're talking , but have faced many failures and rejections , and deal by getting back up and trying to learn something from it,maybe the deeper meaning, and pray a lot.
3) They say "ignorance is bliss" I dont know Sub , that alone can drive ya crazy on either side of the fence

And I say "Thank You" for making great music. Sue


[This message has been edited by laineytunes@yahoo.com (edited 12-13-2006).]

Hey Sub:

Love everything about the song - especially the lead guitar on the instrumental break. This one does not sound dated to me either.

As you know, I'm not trying to be successful at music. However, my work has certain similarities - in that it requires creativity and creation, as well as the necessity to promote oneself. So, I can answer the questions from that perspective.

(1) Dues paying never ends - because we are driven from within - not from the outside.

(2) Yes, I have been in that situation. Invariably, what brings me back up after a professional disappointment is an act of creation - reminding me why I got into it in the first place.

(3) Yes. Definitely. Otherwise we would never try anything

See ya!
Scott

Sub-- I like your song...I like everything you do..."I never met a Sub song I didn't like"... ...

Your a pearl in an oyster....just sittin' there all valuable but not found yet...

Have you paid your dues?....of course...are you the "ultimate warrior" musically...yes...

Do you give up because the Wang dude makes a million dollars singing a Ricky Martin song out of key....

Carrie Underwood...who I personally think is very good....in 2 years off a farm in Okla....is the biggest star ever...and who Faith Hill made a face when she won some award over her...Faith said it was in fun....bullsh**....Faith and Martina paid their dues so they resent this girl...because they paid their dues...she didn't....Is this Carrie's fault...no...she got a lucky break...she has talent...the list goes on, and on....

You and I have talked...you need that "In"...unless you get lucky...that's probably a 1% chance....but never give up...especially you....guys like you make the percentages better for yourself...because of the high level of talent...at least some...

Anyway....heard the new one you did for Dennis...Closer to You....really like that one....

Also heard the radio cat...the Anytime song of Ricky's...sounds like it made the cut...man I hope so...that may be a good thing for every one...crossing my fingers...take care my friend....still gonna have you help me after the holidays...t-bob

Hi Sub
While I am writing this I have your song playing. I have to say I think its excellent. and I only play songs several times if I really like them. You have done a fine job on this and I think its extremely radio friendly. I am not a songwriter Sub, so maybe I am not in a position to comment but I think you have developed a technique that makes the listener sit up and take notice. That to me is the hallmark of success in being a songwriter, and that is my p;articular benchmark. Seasons best to you and I hope this song does major things for you.

Hi Sub
Incidentally that last posting was done by myself Patrick McCool from the duo Logue&McCool. I tell you this just to avoid any confusion.

Hi Louis & Clint

Thanks guys! Louis - My friend and I used the teaser chorus a lot back then it was something we just started doing and it became a common thing for us. It seemed to work with our songs.

Clint - Thanks for everything and for sharing those thoughts. i do love the acoustic it is the only guitar I play except for when a session requires an electric.
My older "Falcaro" stuff uses acoustic as a primary part of most of our songs. But we also have lots of other production going on so it can get buried a little.

On this song i played the acoustic breakdown section but my friend played the rest of the song on acoustic. I also did the Bass and the solo on this as well as the keyboards and back vocals. My buddy sang lead & backing vocals and played acoustic.

I suggested that we try the pre-chorus we were playing picked out on the acoustic on the one right before the lead break instead of the heavy way we were going into it. He agreed! I also purposely smacked the guitar so it would have that knocking sound on it like a beat Something I seen Steve Howe do in concert, he is the first guitarist I ever saw live.


I'll find something where it's all acoustic

Peace
Sub

John!

It's almost ready! Great! day for music bro!

Thanks
Sub

Thanks bro it was awesome talking with you I'm so glad you really really get my me and my stuff.

Sub

Hi Michael - Thanks! This is an old tune but I have gotten better
I have to ask you what kind of license agreement would I benefit from?
Thanks for checking it out!

Thanks
Sub


SUE..... How are you?
Thanks for those answers they definitly helped. I hope all is well with you over there and wish You & Mike a Happy & safe Holiday.

I am so behind on post responses- first off EVERYONE here writes & completes 10 times or more the amount of songs than me And i may be the only one here who has no job and NEVER leaves the house. Go figure!

My ears are shot (12 mixes of John's incredible tune) which I hope to post soon.
Mike A has got me working on a tune and it's really starting to kick.

I have to listen to some songs tomorrow as I'm reeling tonight and will hit the bed one foot on the floor

Talk soon I know we got stuff to do

peace
Sub

Hi Sub,

I started reading this thread the other day and got interrupted. So, I'm trying to review and remember what I thought. Hmmm. Well, this morning my thoughts are probably different. I get emotional listening to the discussion.

It's great that today's artists have places like JPF to listen and get a glimpse of the universality of this delimma (sp?) Recently I read that when Rembrandt died he was obscure (if I haven't confused him with someone else) and he was bankrupt. But, when I look at his paintings, I'm not at all surprised that he spent all his money on art and stuff for his craft.

It overwhelmed me with emotion. And I was more than a bit irritated at myself for not researching his life earlier. Art was not even a class offered at the little highshool I attended. And the low priority placed on the arts by educators in my small hometown, affected me in a huge way.

So, Rembrandt's story warmed my heart. He was a thousand times more determined than I ever was to use his gifts. And look at the results. Wow!

Sub, you remind me of Rembrandt. Not the bankrupt part, but your dedication to your gift. It's a very beautiful thing. I no longer look at an artist's drive to acquire tools of his/her trade as selfish. But, as a selfless service to others. It took me being exposed to the wonderful people here to begin to see that though. I would have never come to that conclusion on my own. The opposite had been implied to me for so many years.


Hope I'm not too off topic.

Vanessa

Here is my take on this. Granted, I am relatively new to the business side of this but I believe I have learned a lot in just the past three months.

Regarding ability, I think there are many people on our side of the fence who have just as much 'ability' as 90% of the people who have made it. Yes, there are obvious geniuses like the aforementioned Billy Joel (and people like Elton John) who are in a league all by themselves, but there are also many people considered great today who are no better at writing songs as some of these people who post here.

Prime example -- look at the lyrics of Black Sabbath. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE this band, but if you look at some of their lyrics, you can easily see that a fourth grader could have done a better job. Ozzy is today considered an icon, a legend, but if any of us submitted lyrics like the following (from 'Wicked World' on the first Sabbath album). we would be laughed out of the room and told not to quit our day jobs.

The world today has such a wicked face
Fighting going on between the human race
People go to work just to earn their bread
While people just across the sea are countin' the dead

A politician's job they say is very high
For he has to choose who's got to go and die
They can put a man on the moon quite easy
While people here on earth are dying of (old/all) diseases

A woman goes to work every day after day
She just goes to work just to earn her pay
Child's (sitting/city) cry "my life is harder" *1
He doesn't even know who is his father

Somebody gave this band a shot and they ended up touching a chord with a dis-enfranchized audience of rebellious teens and the rest is history. Tell a rabid Sabbath fan today that Ozzy is illiterate and you can expect to receive a bloody node.

Talent is not the issue with you, Sub. You KNOW you have that. So do the rest of us. Being confident is NOT being arrogant. It is better to be over-confident than not since it better enables you to take the rejection that will surely come your way.

The key is persistence. Ever see the rock documentary "Decline of Western Civilization' about the decadence of the hair metal years. They interviewed a lot of up-and-comers who never made it and these kids were WAY overconfident about their prospects. I think you have to be in order to have what it takes to finally make it.

You need to get out of your studio more and attend events like TAXI Road Rally. That is where you network and make the connections you will need in order to have success. I truly believe that without the connections, your chance of success in this business is zero. That doesn't mean you will make it, but it increases the odds, as does the fact that unlike many of your competitors, you have the necessary talent.

A second thing you need to do is swallow your pride as an artist and learn to accept and follow industry criticism. Be willing to bend to their way of thinking regarding writing and re-writing. Try to write pop hit. It might not be your thing but it will increase your chances. Once you have that big cut and the financial freedom it brings, you can go back to doing your own thing and making that a success. There are many artists who will never compromise their art and that is a respectable thing to do, but you also need to be prepared to accept the fact that you may never make it (i.e., make a comfortable living doing it your way).

My thoughts are first that those lyrics aren't as bad as many lyrics. They are very singable and drive home the central message of the song. But the more important thing is that in that style of music especially, lyrics have little importance. One single topic, one strong chorus line etc. is all you need. Is that song lyric brilliant? No. But it probably serves Ozzy well in what he does which is being a dark anthem style rocker.

Country lyrics are a different thing. They currently need cleverness that hard rock songs don't. They have a 3 minute window to grab someone with their cleverness. Hard rock songs want you to feel the music, feel the mood, feel the emotion. It's too different things.

Of course there is little place to go commercially right now as a hard rock act anyway. Radio won't allow the new "ozzy's" or "metaliccas' to get on the radio anywhere. I think we had some amazing mainstream rock songs nominated this year. Our top 6 Rock songs are all work as major radio hits (and all sound different but cool). But radio isn't playing that stuff either. Sad.

Brian

Scott & T- Bob

Thanks! Scott I can't get over that photo... cool man is that you?
I liked your answers they were on the button. I got to give you a buzz soon your my favorite peoples

Sub

T- Bob thanks for the support & encourgement.. I was kinda asking folks who really want to succeed or felt as though they should or should have "are they paying dues" or have they paid dues..

I wasn't really questioning myself my proffesional dues are paid in full a few times over.

Dennis's song came out cool & I hope he nails the Ricky Nelson thing down.
He is so close with them playing over that radio station and the guy being excited about it. There ya go here is the example this will be the closest he has gotten to his goal... Lets see how it pans out then how we deal with it that is part of what i'm talking about.

Your awesome T
Sub

Hi Rb,

Good to see you!

Lots of views there so i 'll try to stay focused. As for the so many unknown people good enough to succeed.. I don't believe that.
The percentage of not up to par material is still WAY high. I bet Brian can confirm that listening to as many demos as he does a year. Probably more than 3 major labels combined
There are SO many people today making music and taking themselves seriously because
(1) There aren't enough great artists in the mainstream today beating them up.
If you been growing up idolizing Justin Timberlake for the last what 10 years now or winners of American Idol.. then how good would you think you need to be?
(2) Computers - Everybody records now on computers.. but many know little to nothing about recording or putting together real live music. Recently I had someone send me a song for enhancement and the way this person talked you would have thought they were at this for years.. The terminology with the Files & the bits rates and the khz.. And all that jazz and much more. What did they send? a horrible product.
They are completely oblivious to it..blind so to speak but they feel they have a chance. Also the (internet) can give a false sense in it's exposure..

Black Sabbath - Rules! One of my favorite bands ever.. debating about there lyric and concept and position is a waste of time. I love lots of Ozzy's lyrics, not all but lots. I agree with Brian's comment you can pick on a much easier target then him.
Ozzy is Ozzy but if we wanna go way HUGE big band stars lets look at Kiss & Van Halens lyrics. Ah Ozzy looks fricking great now don't he?

Of course I'm just making points RB and not talking directly at you. You are one of my favorite folks here and I work on your music so we know where we are at
I also appreciate the suggestions you mentioned. And i agree with you 100% on some of things we need to do.

I wish it was back like it used to be where you could write a cool song and then the "Three Dog Night" would put it on there album along with other song writers tunes.. and you would think it was them who wrote it.
But those days are gone I missed that decade and others by being born a little too late.

I appreciate but learning about swallowing pride and following indutry criticism and bending.. is all old hag to me. I have been bent in half.. I was bending when I gave up my instrument & learned another instrument just to play in a band to get the chance to showcase for majors when I was 19. I had a guy sit there and tell us what to play and how to do everything so the industry would accept us better, He would take the songs up there and they would say change this and that and he would come back and make us re-work & re-write.. he was like our own personnal A&R guy.. Did that for four years. And 4 years back then meant 4-5 nights a week.

Besides you wouldn't believe the history that has walked into my studio

Peace brother
talk soon
Sub

Brian,

Like I mentioned above Ozzy is Lennon compared to David Lee Roth or Kiss lol...
I like alot of Ozzy's lines but i always thought when he was young he was such a wonderful singer.. His unique style & sound and the band inventing a legitimate genre.. Heavy Metal. Not like genres today.. Emotional music is Emo Genre then if they scream in it it's changed to Screamo Genre. How f... stupid is that?

hey next time you drop by maybe I'll have a song up I did in this decade lol..

Peace
Sub

I agree with you that there are a lot of sub-par writers and musicians out there and that they outweigh the good ones by a whole lot, but the sheer volume of people out there trying to make it against the number of signings a label can do make things very competitive. When I was at the Texas songwriter's cruise last month, I was very impressed at the talent level. Of course, 95% of them were from Nashville so I can't really say much about the pop and rock talent, but if it is comparable, then making it is going to be tough for even the best.



I love the OZ man too, as well as Black Sabbath. My point about the lyrics was that most of the expert song reviewers giving critiques today would probably trash them. As a college professor who evaluates writing on a daily basis, I will tell you that the lyrics in question are very poor in terms of grammar and overall style.

What they have going for them is that they match the music. Brian is right when he says that the lyrics have to fit the genre. These kind of lyrics work in heavy metal music, but wouldn't float in country music.



Just keep plugging, sub. You'll hit one day.

One man's opinion: Success is a combination of talent, timing, hard work, and luck. You're born with or without the talent, you have no control over the timing, and all your hard work simply puts you in the best position to take advantage of luck, if it comes your way.

Sure, you can be born with so much talent that it doesn't seem like hard work. In some cases, you can start with meager talent and through hard work build to a point where you can compete with the best. You could even mostly suck, and with good timing and hard work still succeed (e.g. one-hit wonders, actors who can't sing yet have hit records, dot-com rich kids). But you still need a little luck no matter what.

Bottom line: Hopefully you enjoy the "hard work" and it gives you satisfaction -- it's all you can really count on.

Oh, on the song, the first line sounds like the first line of Careless Whisper by Wham and kind of colors the song for me.

Sub,

Sorry I'm so late getting to this one...but I bounce in and out and they slide...love this song...don't care when it was done and I don't think that matters...good songs transend decades...wow was that me? ...


t m

Rb,

One quick thing... your missing the angles.. The biz doesn't analize bands lyrics at ALL.
They pretty much never have bands have some pretty whack lyrics today [naughty word removed] makes no sense to no one but them. Same thing years ago my favorite group Led Zeppelin
take aprt the lyrics lelt me know how it goes.. lol..

Artists & more so bands get away with ANYTHING lyrically. 98% of the People who sell songs don't! That is a hard cold fact..

Peace
Sub

Rb,

One quick thing... your missing the angles.. The biz doesn't analize bands lyrics at ALL.
They pretty much never have bands have some pretty whack lyrics today [naughty word removed] makes no sense to no one but them. Same thing years ago my favorite group Led Zeppelin
take aprt the lyrics lelt me know how it goes.. lol..

Artists & more so bands get away with ANYTHING lyrically. 98% of the People who sell songs don't! That is a hard cold fact..

Peace
Sub

Hi,

I have decided and already started a journal.. It is designed to help me start unloading the heavy baggage I carry in my mind, heart & soul.

I realized by talking with some of you on the phone actually that I have to write down
all my expieriences with music Good & bad list.. starting with the bad... Funny thing I'm finding is all the bad stories start out as good ones

I was talking with Accel one night, shoot about 5:30 in the morning.. he is a lunatic like me & a Gemini to boot. And as I was rambling on like usual he couldn't believe the things I was saying jumping from one to another. Great guy to talk to!
He was like Mike I didn't know that or this happened.etc...
We were kinda discussing so many things but this threads questions were some of it. Let me tell you Accel understands some stuff man.. he really gets it whatever IT happens to be.

It was part of the reason i have finally decided to just write it down. Tired of hearing myself.. i never want to re-hash these stories again dont wanna say the words
If someone asks me about it.. I'll just copy & paste.
I have enough frustration and difficulties in my life now, why carry the load of dissapointments I have endured any longer. How can so much love for something always end in such bitterness? Cause we let it! At least I do, I can sure dwell.

My good friend Mike A also encouraged me to do this he was very successful in the music business and I believe will be again.
One of my good friends here suggested I post some stories..maybe I'll blog some on MY Space blog or something. Maybe it can help others? I don't know. I have shared some already.

Like I always say If anyone i know succeeds and has a question about it and what to do.. Don't ask me! That is not my area of expertise. Failing is my area of expertise I know ALL about it..
And endurance, perseverance, encouraging and heart. I'm a Jedi Knight at that to

Peace & I Hope everyone can find there dreams and or find happiness
Or realize it if you already have

Sub

Subterranean One:

Blog! Blog! Blog! and they chant Blog! Blog! Blog!

Sent you a private message....

tom

UGH Sub....I soooooo love your music. There's alot to be said for an 8 track. My fiance' has one and all of his stuff sounds really great. We're going to get 24 track soon. (really that's more than enough!) But for now the 8'er works just fine!!

Good to See you again! By the way.....I made the move to Nashville! whooo hooo!!

Tina

Merry Christmas!!!

Here's the thing I'm feeling here...

The lyrics didn't grab me at all. I will say even when a band has a hit with non-sensical (I'm making that up) lyrics, there's still something that grabs me (Collective Soul anyone?). I was hoping it would have more from the vocals too. I love the drum sound, nice and raw. Overall, I would really like to hear it slicked out with a more production and a more powerful vocal performance.

But then that's what I like. It may not be what you like.

Jody

Hi Tina & Tom

Tom - I got your mesaage thanks bud!

Tina,

Thanks! & congrats on your move.. I hope you get your tracks soon
8 is enough though lol...

Peace
Sub

Hi Jody,

Wow I'm shocked first I saw a response by Emily than by you.
Was surprised to see you here.. first time in nearly 2 years cool..

Yes I agree the lyric could be more substantial. My friend and I have always written most of our stuff in the vague style of writing. They could have used a bit more color and flare. Fortunately I have gotten so much better at it. Funny you mentioned Collective Soul, I'm a fan of there stuff and as a matter of fact some industry people use them to describe some of our work back then. You know when they have to use somebody as an example.. Style wise. If you listen to the song "December" and listen the to main vocal closely it sounds alike like my friend here. Only the first 30 seconds or so but i did fool his own brother by playing that song since he never heard it. Then he went "get out of here" lol...

The lyric is not the strong point on this I agree.. i do like the phrasing, arrangement and music to it as well as the subtle power in the production.
But in retrospect I think I was more pleased with that just 2 players that never were the singers in the band could knock out 20 live tracks recorded and mixed in my dining room on an 8 track 17 years ago
Gosh where does the time go?

Thanks for stopping by & Happy Holidays
Peace
Sub

"Eight is enough"....cute....real cute...LOL.

Hi Sub

This song was done in 1991? Well, it sure does not sound at all dated. It would fit right in today. Very well done. I am listening to it for the second time as I type.

Your questions;
Paid my Dues? Not even close. I wrote my first song in 2003 and recorded it with a $25 radio shack mic direct into the computer sound card. So, less than 4 years doing this does not equal "Dues" in my opinion. I have just started. I've spent a lot of money though. I have about $8,000 invested in my recording equipment and instruments. Another $4,000 or so in the studio I built in my Barn. If that is paying "dues" then I guess I have, LOL.

Ever so close? Not in the music business. I did in my construction business. Then one bad year and lost it all. But, I didn't quit. I picked myself up and went back to work. Never really owned a business after that but I was happy.

Is it better to be a little ignorant? Perhaps. When I started getting serious about music I thought it would be easy to write a song and get it done by a "Star" and get to hear it on the radio. Little did I know, LOL. That bubble got busted very quick. Had I known what this biz was really like I might not have started.
Now I am comfortable with what I do, so I guess I am not "ignorant" anymore. But, I am happy with myself and what I do. I don't have any illusions.
But that does not mean I won't continue to work hard to improve my Lyrics, music, and production.

Howdy Sub

Very Nice ... I don't have enough technical skill to say anything about the actual recording but the song itself was pleasent and easy to listen to.

Nice work

Cheers

Boy Howdy Sub!

Good to hear from you!

I really liked the song. Nice production work. Lotsa subtle layers.

To me and only in my opinion it sounds like early 90's. This is because I have heard your modern stuff, and it, (newer stuff) sounds more introspective and mature, and complete. Add a couple of power chords to this and you have a heavier metal ballad from the 80's. The work is very high quality, just dated sounding.

To your other points, I can say this. I am a songwriter who has not paid any dues in music. But you see, the dues you pay in life are not unlike the dues you pay in music. It's just that life aside from music has a much better chance of teaching you good things and making you happy. Even though those dues are a bitch.

Artists make a choice to get into a very, very, very extreme high risk business where there is virtually no one to help them, and no market for them just because they are a great musician and songwriter.

Is that ironic, or just suicidal? Maybe both and more? God Bless them if they are delusional, and may they succeed before maturity and a desire to eat less shi* overtakes them. And God bless them if they are willing to lower their expectations after getting kicked around. May they all be happy!

If indeed you attach your degree of happiness in life to your acceptance and success as you see it in this business of music, (maybe you don't so stop reading right now) and you certainly have high expectations as you should, then be prepared to most likely be an unhappy, unsatisfied person for what is most likely the rest of your life. It isn't that you aren't great, because you are.

That is if you accept my premise that you have entered a business where there is almost no market for great music. I won't mention that MTV airs a bunch of women's asses and black gangster millionaires trivializing women, murder, and drug abuse for what must be 50% of their airtime. Please hum me a few tunes which are disgraceful to humankind.

Happiness is a warm gun. So my suggestion is that whoever you are, find some other things that are valuable to you and start deriving more satisfaction by spending more time with them. You will be a more complete person, whom can deal with the ups and downs.

Look man, there simply are very few great songs out there that have the ability to break through because they are great songs. No one is listening for them. I can't tell anyone about the pitfalls that has been through them.

But, I can say that we bury more fantastic talent then we will ever hear. That is because the "music business" does not look for that which is great. This isn't a trade secret or anything, Can I get an AMEN?

All super talented pop writers know before they get into the bizz, that they may never make it. Don't be delusional, almost everyone who is in the breadline will betray you to follow the money.

I have to be happy with the music I am making, not the people waiting to tell me if it is worthy or not. They are being paid to say no to you.

I on the other hand appreciate your talent and understand and dig your vibe!

Blessings


Johnboy

Johnboy, I totally agree with your pointers. Reading Your post made reallity come in and shake my hand Thanks for sharing your thoughts!!!!
All the best
Jan Petter

Hi Bill,

Great & honest response. Yes starting in 2003 is just starting but could be a blessing in the sense that you are fresh now motivated but most of all not disgusted bitter and battered.

The buying a equipment is sure sign of trouble ahead It is a big part of paying dues for sure. It is a lot of money and time/work invested in that.

O once was having a discussion with a recording engineer who worked in one of the biggest studios in NYC. I said man I don't know if I care to invest anymore money into equipment. He said tell me about it bla blah etc..etc..
I waited then said "you worked in huge studio in which you didn't own one piece of gear! what the hell are you talikg about? "I have broken more equipment than you have owned" lol.. For Real!!

Man sorry to hear about your construction business.

No illusions is the best way to be. I would like to be ignorant or maybe just nieve so I could enjoy life more. Like I told my friend the other night I'm not playing for stardom or fame anymore, not even for riches.. I'm playing for health insurance, and teeth.. then I opened up the mouth to show em where i was coming from.


Peace
Sub

Hi Noel.. Thanks for dropping in an listening!

Hi- Hi Johnboy

You can get an Amen!

I agree with your first observation about the 90's thing. Being close to a 80's metal ballad by just adding some power chords is way, way off lol....
Unfortuantley I know that period of music all to well and nothing in this song matches that.

As for your points they were VERY GOOD! There was truth to be found in all of them.

And yes I do indeed attach much happiness to my career success. I think anyone who has a career will tend to do that. Is it a good thing? No probably not! Is it healthy? Na! is it normal? Yes I think so.. i wonder sometimes though

I treat music with much of a sports mentality many times. When i work with someone i feel as though we are team mates and every song is one step closer to the Super Bowl. I chose to do one thing with my entire life and I want to succeed at it. Achieve the best I can. Can't do that making a living as something else, so it has to come from the field, hence the biz... I have sacrificed nearly everything and worked very very hard. I have pride & I never give up so there is a big conflict right there. I measure success against myself.
I have enough disgust with the Music Business as do so many others but my biggest battle and conflict is with me! That's the one Im losing..

I'm starting to learn...
There are no external enemies only internal ones.


Peace
Sub

Hi Jan!

Thanks for listening!

And I will say this to those who are not old or bitter about the music bizz and who want to pursue it at a major level.

Know your market, and understand what they want. Make sure there is a market for what you are doing. It is a business controlled by people who do not care about your music, unless you can write a layup hit which is obvious to all. These are rare, and are turned away as often as they have been accepted. This is where perseverance and talent at marketing rather than songwriting come into play.



Howdy Sub!

You have internal demons, yes you do! We all have them, and they must first be disarmed in order to find that which you seek.

Criticisms of your work are scary for me to write because you have a tendency to defend and sometimes insult, rather than to listen. Listening, is the only way in which anyone can get better. Can you get better?

Only if you listen and can accept criticism, right or wrong. You have had more experience than most others here, yet you lack a small degree of humbleness and are defensive unless the critiques stack up in your favor. I don't know why dude, because you are a good friend, and a great musician.

This song is good, but it lacks punch. It does sound like an old metal ballad if you kicked it up a notch. I wrote as many as you did, and this may have some nice changes in it, but it is flat.

The vocals are whispery all the way through and lack any sort of dynamics. The song suffers from the same. It needs dynamic reconsideration. Knowing that it is old makes the point moot. But that is what I heard yesterday, and I am telling you because you need to hear it.

The other guy that thinks it sounds modern, has his opinion, this is mine. It isn't an attack, and I am not way way off, it's just that you are too close to the fire.


Blessings, and I love you man!



Johnboy

Hi Sub,

Your music is excellent. It touches people, it helps people. That's really successful. And we know that, you and I.

I work on a problem that I have. I try to define myself. I define myself as a father, but my kids are grown and soon my daughter will be on her own...so is that what I am? A father? I define myself as a marksman, but my eyesight is failing and I don't hit the target like I used to...so is that what I am? A marksman? I define myself as a physically strong person, but I have a bad back, a repaired hernia, and joint pain, so I can't really lift the weight I used to...so is that what I am? A physically strong man. And, I define myself as a successful musician, but my songs aren't being played on the radio now, I don't tour or even play as a singer/songwriter anymore, and the money I've made is all spent...so is that what I am? A successful musician?

It's easy to lose yourself while trying to find yourself. It's not seeing the forest for the trees, but you're the forest and the trees.

There was a wonderfully eccentric musician named Argyle Bell. Argyle was a steel player, played with a lot of stars. He was a country-rocker and alt-country very early in the movement. As he got older, Argyle was hired for fewer gigs. His "look" was a little dated: shaggy mullet, corduroy western jackets and vintage snap button cowboy shirts with a bola tie made from a scorpion set in lucite, zipper "Beatle" boots, a vaguely "british rocker" look. And besides, Argyle was, well, older.

Soon he began dressing up, telling roommates he was on his way to a gig, only to drive around the corner, change into his work clothes and go off to be a clerk at a convenience store. Argyle became bitter. Eventually, he took his own life.

Nashville came out for his memorial, stars spoke about him. The local newspapers ran substantial stories about him. Lots of folks commented on how, if this would have happened while he was still alive...he'd still be alive.

I don't know. You see, Argyle put himself in a position where he allowed other people and circumstances to define him. Capricious things. Dangerous practice. Like defining yourself as a future lottery winner, or a world champion Russian roulette player.

So the lesson of Argyle made me redefine my definitions. Why define myself by what other people think? Why define myself by the outcome of chance? Why define myself by a changing relationship? I prayed about it. Prayers are always answered, not always "yes" but always answered. The one thing I really am, have always been and will always be is a child of God. He'll never change, that will never change, it's something I'll always be. The rest of it is just part of the adventure, part of the drama. There'll be success, failure, conflict, resolution, goals met and forgotten, goals unmet and causes of frustration, all just part of the adventure of a child of God.

All the Best,
Mike

Johnboy,
Wow,,,,That is odd,,,opposite really,,,for I think you are not getting his tone, or "ways of Mike" in any printed words by him. I know this, as I am currently working with Mike,,In PERSON, at his studio. Been there for another song I sang on for Scott Campbell, and now one for the band I'm in, for several sessions too. I have heard, in person, Mike mention about how he colud have been really good at several instruments, IF he had stuck to just ONE. He also GAVE UP an endorsement deal with Ibanez guitars, for he was told then on the spot that George Benson plays them. He said no way he could endorse a product with Benson already being a player of them. He REFUSED money and fame, (coming fresh out of SONY studios in NYC), for being as humble as he IS. WHO would do that? Refuse such an offer based on humble principals? MIKE DID. I don't blame anyone for thinking anything about one's typed words, for the frienly eye blinkings, or the tone, or any body language in NOT in any words on these sites. You, right now, have no idea whether I am mad or smiling through all this, or in between somewhere. You can't know, unless I give scipt like directions through every sentence.

I have read Mike's posts before meeting him, and I was thrown off by how different he actually sounds and comes off in person. He speaks of his facts as he knows them to be,,,,but in person, you quickly realize he is MOST humble about them, and atually just LOVES to play and express his music for pure enjoyment. He pointed out many times about others that just blow him away,,,and that he wishes he could have come up with THOSE songs, or THAT way to play them. He will play many riffs of others past hits and just go, "WOW! Now that's greatness!"

Just wanted to set the record straight, as one who has gotten to KNOW Mike. We do not know each other from printed words alone.

Brian can also come off sometimes very different. I have gotten to know him too, in person, during a roadtrip through more than several cities and states. So now, when I read something of his, I KNOW how he talks, and how he really intends the message to be. So different at times, believe me. I have read some others, who replied to him, and they just don;t,,,or really, can't know how and why he is saying some things that come off as brash. Not so i his personality. So different,,,,typed words, and him speaking and looking at you is his VERY cool and freindly ways,,,even when saying something critical.

As for the song, (Bad Situation): That is of course opinion. Subjective, as all musis is. If it moves more people than not, and if not going for the Clive Davis signing, then that speaks for itself, as far as popular opinion.

John

Hi Mike,

Thanks so much for joining in here on this one, your insight and expierence is much appreciated. Also thanks for the comments and support.

These examples you wrote about and the story of Argyle were both very perceptive and inspiring.

You know as I mentioned earlier I do have a sports like competitive way about me
also love sharing that same team camaraderie. Others counting on me & me counting on them to achieve something bigger than the both of us.
This makes me happy although many times ends in despair. People let each other down. Its a big part of life, but what often hurts most is how they do it.

I was in this band for a short while once. The other players in this band were superior musicians to me. They were studied, focused and were more advanced in what they did more than me. A few years later when the singer went solo I was the only one
from that band to make it out on tour. Those in charge said to me we love your playing and all but we really love you, we just wanted you to be with us. We will be practically living together in a bus for a long stretch of time. We feel comfortable and secure having you with us. Please say you'll do it!
That made me feel very good especially in this hard business, that defines me and neither age or wear can ever take that away. [b]My abilitiy is a small blessing I worked very hard to develop. The other is the true gift from God
[/b]

Man the only thing keeping me going somtimes is thank goodness I never got stuck in a pigeon hold situation. I may continue to suffer and end up broken or destroyed but It won't be for the same reasons as Argyle. Is there any good reasons?

Like I always, always say "Versatilty my biggest strength and my biggest weakness."

I never learned songs note for note I never tried to sound excatly like someone else.
I Never let Disco have me wearing white suits and dancing (even though i did play at the famous club) I never looked like a "Flock Of Seagull" I never punked out with a mohawk or walked around like New Wave Never ever did the Heavy Metal look like a chick scene. Never grunged out or wore bling
I tried for a very brief time with a rap rocker all leathered up in black.. It got me on my first album ever and almost to England on a tour. And I was a bit of a hippy style when I was young by nature
I never really let the music scene or any scene dictate who I was..

Two weeks ago I had a 14 year old band playing together for 5 weeks go tie for first place in "Battle Of The Bands" They did it with one of my songs that they asked if they could please play & use.
The same week I had a gentleman in his 60's who is a very hard guy to please especially with music, leaping and jumping to the music and guitar parts I wrote for his very different style song. And that guy worked with the single biggest artist in our country. See All the good side of the same bad point

But gaining the true respect and trust from those so much younger than me and then the equal amount older than me is a nice feeling, But none of it can my family medical insurance or fix these darn teeth

Thanks Mike
Much Respect!
Sub