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FYI:

There's no secret I don't care for most of what Graham has to say on any given issue here. So I want to be upfront on that issue. I've tried to be as open minded on this post as I can, and decided to see what the only openly gay person involved in this discussion had to say before I commented.

I don't care whether Graham likes or dislikes gays or anyone else for that matter. However, his gratuitously inappropriate and inflamatory statements are way out of line. His point, if he was trying to make one, could have been made without comments like "shirt lifter" (whatever the heck that even means) or his extremely inappropriate description of a sexual act, that ironically, on shear numbers, is far more common between heterosexual couples than gay couples simply because they so outnumber gays. (So does that mean he doesn't listen to heterosexual love songs either?)

I left the statements up because if I had deleted them, people would have jumped to Grahams defense and turned the issue into an attack on me (as has happened over and over with other issues involving Graham), rather than on Graham's statements. So I left them because bigoted statements sort of speak for themselves and expose the person making the comments for what they really are.

I will say that I apologize not only to Vontanner but also everyone else here who's trying to have a rather benign discussion about musical genres, but have to deal with the confused ramblings and rantings of someone who should have used a bit of common sense and civility in their comments. Had Graham said "I think homosexuality is wrong" then I would not have had a problem with the opinion.. it's his completely pointless vulgarity and teen level crudeness at the expense of others others feelings and sensibilities that is offensive.

If someone here wants to state they are a homophobe or a racist.. fine. Say it clearly. But don't use inflammatory statements to further prove it as well. If you can't control yourself.. please go elsewhere because you aren't welcome here as long as I am involved.

Brian



[This message has been edited by Brian Austin Whitney (edited 10-03-2003).]

I think a gay category is inappropriate. I think it does cause division. It sets people apart. We should just stick to kinds of music, not kinds of people. Gay people are just people. Heterosexual people are just people. The humanity is the same. It's the music that is important in the awards contest. I don't think the awards should be used as a forum for anything else but music.

JeanB

Jean,

I see absolutely nothing wrong with having an award for gay themed songwriting, as long as there are enough entries and interest to warrant it. Men are just people, women are just people, yet they have seperate awards. Christians are just people, and many Christians use any forum they can to advance their cause, yet they have a seperate award. If someone suggested that the Christian awards be dropped because they supply a forum for something other than music (which they do), I'd be among the first to call it a bad idea.

My only concern would be the forming of an award category for only a few eligible entrants. This would dilute the value of the other awards.

People are people, and people form into groups. It's what we do. When a group of people enrich the world with their unique art, they deserve to be recognized.

Mike

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Mike Dunbar Music

Actually Mike, I wish the Christian thing would be changed to religious music or something like that and should include all religions.

Praise and worship music isn't creating a forum, it's one of the oldest "genres" around. It serves a function. The psalms have been around long before the blues.

There are a lot of songs that shouldn't be labeled Christian or religous at all. They are just songs about positive values and unconditional love, etc. Yet people want to stick them in an "inspirational" or Christian category. Why?

If a lady or gentleman wants to sing a song that is targeted toward the same gender, what's the big deal? Why must it be labeled gay? What about just accepting the song as it is and not let our own personal beliefs interfere with judging the quality of the song in a contest. If there is a message to the song, so what? Does it need to be segregated into a specific category? If it's a rock style song, it should go into a rock category.

Pro-gay, anti-gay, pro-choice, pro-life, Hawks and Doves, where will it stop?

For that matter why DO we segregate male and female? It's understandable in sports, but not music or academy awards etc. for that matter. Can't a man and woman compete against each other equally in this area?

JeanB

Jean,

Without answering point by point, I simply disagree. There is nothing wrong with having awards for several different categories. It's not divisive, it celebrates differences. Vive La Difference! When we can rejoice in each others' differences, peace on earth will be within sight.

Mike

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Mike Dunbar Music

Jean and Mike,

I agree with Mike on this one (and with the basic premise we uncovered in this post) that if there is enough of a collection of any distinquishable music genre, and it's good enough for nomination consideration, then we are happy to have a genre. At first I mistakenly thought folks wanted a genre simply based on sexual preference, but in reality, the suggestion was for topics that deal with specifically gay issues. I made it clear it seems unlikely that we'll get enough entries to qualify, however 2 years ago, one of our members who wrote Cabaret music recruited all the Cabaret artists he could to enter their stuff and guess what? It easily qualified as a genre, and more interesting, a year later it produced the overall song of the year winner. It's all about playing by the same rules as everyone and else and earning the distinction through merit, and not through political correctness (or incorrectness depending on your viewpoint).

As for Contemporary Christian, we generally use that genre for songs that specifically mention "Christ" in their music, though sometimes songs simply with "God" in them win. We use Gospel to cover what sounds like Church music (based on production, and often vocal arrangements) and 2 years ago the winner of that genre was Jewish.... but his song used a traditional chorus/spiritual type production and performance and it fit. We couldn't care less what someone's religion actually is. If we have a religious song that simply can't fit into one of those genres, we use Ethnic, not to de-value other religions, but actually to represent really good music even if there are only a couple entries.. and we do that for ANY small genre.. we find a place to squeeze it in.. but we don't give it it's own name and category recognition unless there's a large collection of it to choose from and a large number of worth nominations.

Last year, Contempoary Christian was one of the largest genres of entries (probably 6-7th on the list.) So far this year that's not at all the case, but Gospel IS far larger and probably is the 6-7th biggest genre so far. CC is one of the smallest.. you just never know where the entries are coming from. Last year 2 of the top 8 albums of the year, including the album of the year winner, were Contemporary Christian and those artists were 100% comfortable being described under that banner. Who knows, perhaps in a year or two, a Gay/Lesbian genre will emerge and win some big awards. That's up to the artists/writers involved.

Thanks to everyone for getting back to civilized discussion on the actual topic.

Brian

To me, expanding existing genres seems to be a way to keep the awards current with modern styles. 20 years ago, a LOT of the existing categories didn't even exist.

I would just question whether lyrical content alone would be the right way to categorize. Aren't genres there for the listener, so that if one likes a certain genre, they might also like another artist in that genre?

Only Christian music usually has at least one use of the word "God", or "Jesus" in it and is generally inspirational in topic, but there are many different sub-genres of Christian music. I've even listened to some Christian music that I didn't know was such - it just sounded like good pop/rock to me. Others are more acoustical in style.

We can also talk about the "blues" as a lyrical category as well as a stylistic genre.

Taking the "gay topic" as another example, if someone wanted to listen to lyrics about gay issues, would they want to hear both acoustic jazz AND gothic metal songs on that topic? Don't people tend to like music STYLES rather than lyrical subjects?

Just a few questions to ponder...I haven't made my mind up about it yet.


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Larry
www.audibleresponse.com

In relation to Christian songs that do not mention Christ or God, you'll find songs like these on Christian radio and in the Christian section at the store. That carries a lot of weight when defining a genre. What if one were to exclude, as Christian, a song that's an accepted hit in the Christian music business?

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Mike Dunbar Music

Mike,

We've placed songs in different genres than people expected quite a few times. Wide Open Spaces one in Americana, not country, mostly because Susans original version used electric guitar instead of fiddle changing the sound and feel of the song. If we had a "generally accepted" Christian song that we didn't think WAS a Christian song, we'd put it in the appropriate music category (contemporary, rock, pop.. whatever..).

We're 45% of the way through the "genre" determination portion and though there's a lot of diversity, it seems like we may end up with nearly the same genres as last year, minus one or two old ones and plus one or two new ones.

Brian

"I Started A Joke" by the BeeGees..."Have I Told You Lately That I Love You" by Van Morrison...

These are songs about Jesus....

Would they be classified as "Christian " Songs ?

Bob

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 10-23-2003).]

Often wondered what that line was in the BeeGees one Cobber. Will have to kisten to it now I guess.
Don't know The Van one would count as an Inspirational.
It only makes the one referance to praying in the "We will give our thanks and play" line
Makes it really about a couple of people who hjappen to believe the bended knee works.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Wow, a psychiatrist could certainly have a field day with this thread, eh?
Somehow I still arrive in the same place as JeanB. Religious songs are as old as time, thus the topic/topics within them seems to easily catagorize them as such.
But to suggest "keeping up with the times" as reason for creating a gay topical genre falls kinda flat with me. Should we include a genre for songs about fast cars or computers, oil perhaps? Bombs? Guns? Terrorism? Poverty?
In discussing why we have catagories separating male from female, I would suggest it's because they normally sound completely different. I can easily say I'm a heterosexual male, and I love to listen to female singer-songwriters, many of whom are gay. I love female vocals in general, they effect me emotionally. I can float along in mental imagery to the lyrics as though gay/straight is not an issue UNTIL the lyrics make it an issue. And it's then I'm *removed* from the song. Separation.

I see it similar to having either a Democrat *or* Republican genre for music, when in fact it only needs to be political. In essence it is creating a platform for what could be considered one side of an issue. Perhaps it is a "side" which has unjustly suffered from inequal treatment, yet I feel the cause should be equal treatment, rather than that of being gay.

Blatant and crude as Graham's posts may have been, he expressed his thoughts on certain sexual acts. The truth would reveal that most any heterosexual man feels the same way towards such, yet we normally try to be respectable towards others in this new world of greater sensitivity. The modern twist to being respectable, however, might be that it's perfectly politically acceptable for somebody to trounce upon Graham, call him every name in the book, simply for expressing himself, while at the same time discussing a new genre and avenue for the creative expression for people who oppose those very thoughts. In a way it's suggesting: "Don't you dare make an issue about who I am or what I do, but please allow me the platform to make it a public concern". In a world desiring acceptance of each other neither side wins, it would seem.
It appears to me that in making gay music a genre, you are truly separating gays from the rest, and there's something about that which seems to be contrary to what I feel to be right.
But... it's up to the powers that be, and I hope I didn't offend anyone. Certainly not intended.
-Gary






[This message has been edited by TheCiscoKid (edited 10-23-2003).]

Hi JPF's,
I know what I said about not resoponding, however....a gay genre...why not a genre for fast cars...oil...terrorism? Why are these topics listed on this page? Could someone please explain to me about the hundred's of thousands of fast cars marked with pink triangles and then tortured to death by the nazi's! Or maybe how oil has been ridiculed, bullied and driven to suicide at the ages of 13-14? Or maybe you could give me a little insight on a terriorism genre? Where terrorist don't ask don't tell!

Just how does it feel, to never see in writing or on a television or a in a movie scenes or discussions of your personal, sexual lives and just how disgusting that is and you are! How does it feel to not fear that the bullies in your school are not going to knock your teeth out for carrying a backback that looks alittle like a girl's purse?

As for a gay genre seperating the gays from the rest....Halleluyah, wake up sweetie, we are very different and it's those differences that we need to seperate only so we can celebrate them!

Peace and Pride,
chris VonTanner

I think that like our nation, the strength of our group is our diversity. I'm gonna be real careful with this post out of respect.

I'm sure that Jesse Helms and Strom Thurmond had no use for James Baldwin or Richard Wright. However, those writers touched the soul of many who had no concept of the Black experience. 'Black Butterfly' is a recording by pop/gospel singer Denice Williams, It's a far cry from James Browns' 'I'm Black and I'm Proud,' that lost James' a huge chunk of his white audience in the 60's.

It's impossible that gay artists don't have similar artistic expression of their human condition that would touch, educate and inform many of us that are not gay in similar ways, as well as provide understanding and support to their brother/sisters.

A separate musical genre? Perhaps as we become more tolerant as people, such a genre may well develope and as Brian said, get up and walk on it's own feet. I'm sure there are enough gays to support it. Whether straight folks want to hear the songs is a differrent issue. If I don't like the message in the songs, I'm not going to listen to them. But that's just me.

As much as I would like to respond to other comments, I'll quit while I'm ahead. I would like to make a couple of points though. I'll be equally careful. I don't care about the intimate, let's say 'physical' details of my friends & neighbors personal lives and prefer not to hear about them regardless of orientation. But that's just me. Also, there are many popular R&B and other genres of songs getting radio play that provide personal details of activities that I don't want to hear about.. I have a choice. I can change the station.

I'm sure gay oriented music would have the same stylistic diversity as other music. There'd be inspirational, romantic, sexy and even militant music being made. The question is if a mainstream audience would accept it. For the purposes of the group however, that may not matter as much. But now I'm just guessing.

One more thing, The Bassist for Kings X, Doug Pinnick came out recently. Hes Black, plays heavy metal in a band that's considered Christian music and he's over 40. He's one of the most respect muscians in rock. I love America!!! Hell, an enterprising radio station could make a ton of money playing only gay artists. Again Like Brian said, those artists might probably prefer to be considered Rock, Jazz, Disco, R&B or Pop artists rather than gay artists. Again, I'm just guessing.

Love, peace & soul......

Wendell

What has this thread contributed to anyone/anything? What a silly waste of the time of obviously talented musicians. Make music--not gibberish.

BLM

Like all debates, it has given anybody who cared to a chance to offer thought on a subject.
To that end I think it has achieved quite a bit of what Brian was looking for in the asking.
As a spin off, I have written a piece which a gay artist I know thinks he might like to do.
Gee. I may make an all male review with something other than comedy yet.
Or hormone treatment.
And a straight chick singer likewise.
It is a very poor situation when some good doesn't come our of this sort of thing.
That is what forums do.
Graham


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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

[This message has been edited by Graham (edited 12-01-2003).]

Folks:

I think y'all seem to have gotten a little afield of the idea of "genre" as I understood it. I always thought "genre" was what bin record stores decided to put your stuff in. And that had more to do with how it *sounded* than what the songs were about. Charley Pride (to cite a prime example) was "country," not "black guy." Bob Dylan was "folk," then "folk-rock," then "country."

Wherewith, a few personal definitions. Personal, because I don't feel there are any hard and fast definitions. Genre, I guess, is in the mind of the beholder (though we will obviously accept other people's ideas of "genre" each time we visit the record store, won't we?).

I use the late, great Steve Goodman's definition of country music: Country music songs are always about Mother, trucks, trains, farms, prison, dead dogs, and Christmas. I use that definition a lot when I'm playing in public. "This is a country music song because it's got a dead dog and a truck in it," for instance. I only know of one song that has all those things in it, and it's one In wrote--"I'm Giving Mom a Dead Dog for Christmas."

And bluegrass songs are always about death. Think about it--Mom died, the dog died, the crops died, I'm gonna go to heaven when I die. And so forth. Any song not about death is probably classifiable as something else.

Joe

The same joke was going around about blues before they invented country, and there are a few about which embrace all the suggest5ed stuff.
I have one called Vergin' On Disatster, which goes through the Lost the job, Missus ran off withthe repo man when he took the car, dog died from spinter ingestion when he chews my guitar to pieces the day they took me off to jail for non payment of fines.
Did I miss aything?
And yep. That's what Genre is all about.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Again Like Brian said, those artists might probably prefer to be considered Rock, Jazz, Disco, R&B or Pop artists rather than gay artists. Again, I'm just guessing.

Why don't you ask them, instead of the typical Slave owner response.

I have a question.....

I support Gay or same sex, if you will, marriage.
If I, a practicing hetero, write a song stating that view, and another artist who happens to be Gay, writes a song espousing the same view....would our two songs be considered in the same "Genre ?"

To further the confusion, lets say that my song was a folksy sounding song with acoustic guitars chiming away, and the other song was electronic or dance sounding, or vice versa.

Waddya think ?

Bob

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 02-05-2004).]

Bob,

One song is folksy sounding with acoustic guitars? The other song is dance sounding with electronics? They must be modern country.

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Mike Dunbar Music

OK Mike...

Then I guess we'd be...

Gay-techno-dance-adult contemporary-acoustic-Americana.....


Yeah.....

that's it...

Hmmmmmm........

If you put a lotta bent notes in it, that would work real well Bob.
Wonder if that is called Fuchian Jazz???
Can somebody tell me what slave owner attatude is please?
I would think it basically means " I own you so can do what I like with you."
Can't figure what that has to do with a debate on genres, other than it is up to Brian to say what we have here, and he has already said, and I believe we all agree, if enough of any faction wants something, all they have to do is go out and get the numbers to warrant it, and he will look at it to be included.
Graham


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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Graham,

In Australia, your history of slavery is different than ours. As far as my limited knowledge of Australian history goes, you had convictism and indentured servitude of caucasians and orientals as well as aboriginals. Here in the United States, slavery was nearly exclusively perpetrated on black people. Negroes were kidnapped from Africa to be bought and traded. That's why when we talk of slavery, it always has the overtone of being specific to the black race.

Additionally, blues music, invented by the newly freed slaves, began as a "race specific" genre. Early blues labels such as Okeh and Bluebird put out recordings that were called "race records." The blues was born from injustice and the evil of slavery. Many blues lyrics are metaphorically speaking of racial injustice.

That's why many people here take blues "jokes" to be racially charged and of a "slave owner" mentality. They connect the stereotypical blues themes: wife ran away, broke, car repoed, etc., with the negro race and look on any, albeit culturally innocent, jokes made as being bigotted and of a "slave owner" mentality.

Often we in the United States forget that political correctness includes sensitivity and tolerance to the ignorance of our unique cultural foibles by those in other countries.
It's our American imperialist mentality.

All the Best,
Mike

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Mike Dunbar Music

Thanks Mike. I am sure we all have, in differing degrees a bit of slavery going on even today.
I gather from reports, the sex slave thing involving illegals etc is still active in the states, England and Australia, but your explanation does not make it any clearer what the Slave owner thing has to do with anything in this debate.
Graham


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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

""It's our American imperialist mentality""

Having finally gotten around to reading this thread through, I can see why sterotypes are rather a fraught subject...
Tchaikovsky, one of the greatest musicians who ever lived, would have been locked up as a peadophile, today. He had an affair with his 14 year old male cousin..and no one raised an eyebrow.
Lets not forget that we are living in the most prudish era there has been in the last thirty centuries.

[This message has been edited by satu largi (edited 02-25-2004).]

Yes, but my context had to do with slavery, which was a lot more than imprudent. I was making a joke about "imperialism", in America, when we hear the word "slavery," we assume the slaves were all African Negroes as in our history, conversely when someone speaks about things that involve race, we Americans charge it with the legacy of slavery. In the rest of the world, this is not necessarily the case.

Yes, we live in a very prudish time. The past forty years, there has been somewhat of a sexual revolution, fueled by techological developments in communication and contraception. Interestingly, some of our greatest controversies here in the U.S. involve either or both.

All the Best,
Mike




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Mike Dunbar Music

Hey. Mike. we down here, just locked a bloke away for a few years for keeping a girl as a slave/prisoner for two years. Daily beltings. Hosed down in the back yard when she got too dirty to handle. Even had her welfare check going to him all the time.
Worst part of it was, half the small town knew all about it. Some even had acess to her.
I really don't figure how we are in the most prudish era at the moment.
I am sure it was way more staid in my young years.
Know I kept Dad Blushing right up 'til he died.
Graham


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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm