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I thought I would follow up Mike's post with a similar but important topic and that is musical genres.

From what I can tell, there are no solid definitions of what makes a song fit into a specific genre. Often, these are loose approximations based on what a large number of people have collectively called their music over a long period of time. But within even the prime genres like Country, Jazz, Rock, Pop, Folk, Rap etc.. there is a ton of crossover and variation to the point where 1 song can easily be considered multiple genres by different listeners.

A real world example of the problem with genres came up when I asked 10 industry professionals (A&R, Publishers and producers) to tell me the genre of a particular song. I got 6 different genres listed from the 10 people. In reality, none of them were wrong and each had a justification for why they chose that genres (some arguments were based on style, some on lyric content, some on the other work by that artist, some on musical arrangement/instrumentation and some based on similarities of that artist to another artist know in a given genre. This was several years ago, but the lesson stuck with me. Even the experts don't agree. And the artists/writers themselves are often even worse at making the designation. It's not at all uncommon for me to ask an artist what genre of music they write/record and for them to say.. I don't know.. I don't fit any.. or I fit (and then they list 10-12 genres) or they rattle off all the genres that others have told them they fit.. etc.

So.. if no one knows what really fits into a genre, why have them at all? Many artists complain about genres and hate being placed in one. But genres are VERY important and needed in the music industry. Here's a good analogy of why:

If you go to a restaurant, and the menu says "food" only.. what do you order? You need to at least know it's a meat dish.. a vegatable.. but even that isn't much help in deciding what to order. You want something you are likely to want to eat.. not a surprise that isn't palatable. So even though many restaurants prepare similar dishes with very different approaches and recipes, they still give them common names so that you can at least find something in the ballpark of what you might like. Music is the same.

Genres make it easy for people to buy or at least sample your music. And that's what we all want right? We want people to access our music and hopefully come to a show, or buy a CD or show some interest in our work.

I thought it might be interesting, as an excercise and learning experience, to ask folks to give definitions of various genres of music... so I'd like to invite folks to do that here. But first, a few guidelines to make this worthwhile..

1. Give the name of a genre that you might actually find in a record store or on line or in a radio format.

2. Give a definition (please try to keep it to a couple of sentences) of what this genre is and what it takes to qualify a song in it.

3. Give an example of an artist/song or two that you feel represents this genre in the most dead center way. (since genres sort of sway one way and the other, find something in the "middle" of a genre, rather than the fringe.)

The purpose of this is NOT to tell people they are right or wrong.. it's to understand what peopel are thinking and why... so lets not get into arguments with people and say they are wrong.. rather.. if you disagree, give some tangible reason why you think a different definition fits and why a song may belong in a different genre than someone suggests (with some support of why). If we all do this, I think it will be an interesting learning experience. (Note: I am on the road so it may be a while before I can post any replies, but I will check when I can..).

So... how about some examples? Here's a list of some of the genres from our own Just Plain Folks Music Awards which you are welcome to use.. or feel free to post other genres.

Alternative, College Rock, Modern Rock, Rock, Hard Rock, Metal, Industrial, New Folk, Traditional Folk, Americana, Roots, Country, Blues, Pop, Contemporary, Dance, Elecronica, Rap, Spoken Word, Instrumental Jazz, Vocal Jazz, Cabaret, Solo Instrumental, Instrumental, Classical, Novelty, Singer Songwriter, Gospel, Contemporary Christian, R&B, Reggae, New Age, Cover, Celtic, Childrens, Ethnic, Tribute & Holiday. But there are more genres.. so feel free to add them if you have a strong idea of how to define them.

So, lets hear your thoughts!

Brian

In line with your food themeBrian, I think the old saying, "The proof is in the eating" applies.
It is what it tastes like. To the eater.
Or the listener in the case of music.
I like Hound Dog Taylor's line in that.
He said. I only play two kinds of music. The slow stuff is Blues, and the fast stuff is Rock And Roll."
Lately, I have been watching a string of TV shows dealing with the develpoment of music and even there the narattors are debating on what is called what.
Happens often in competitions. Particularly in Country music, where the judge's comments may include a piece something like " This is too jazz to be entered in a country section."
The ear of the beholder has tomake the decision I guess.
And they all have a differant opinion.
Graham



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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

I think some of this is a hang over from record stores and book stores - they want to know what bin to put you in. And once they assign you, you stay there. Is k.d. lang a country artist? No, but her first few albums decidedly were and that's the first place to look in a store today. Is Anne Murray a country artist? "Snowbird" and some other oldies had country arrangements but these days she doesn't sound like anything coming out of Nashville.

I've been reading "The Art of Film Music" by George Burt and it is amazing the wide range of styles a film composer is expected to be able to write in. (Everyone isn't like John Williams )

For me it changes every day; whatever pops into my head. Currently on the "drawing board" I've got a Sousa-style march, some kind of Carribean-influenced dance, and some background music in 3/4 with piano, violin, flute solos in it.

I think that definitely nowadays it's very hard to categorize any particular "genre", cause as you've discovered sounding industry people, even they can't agree...

In my case, for instance, I listen now a lot to "new country" simply because it sounds a lot like the pop music that I like with country instrumentation... I'm talking about people like Faith Hill, shania twain, etc... But to a lot of people that's not country at all, and I certainly don't know what qualifies are real country... But when I go to the record store, i find these people in the country bin...

Another genre that I'm more familiar with is jazz... There's a lot of people over the last 20 years that get put in the jazz section of the store, when they're truly not jazz, just pop people with jazz chords in their tunes... Michael Franks is the best example of this..

If it's instrumental, and they're not "jazzy" enough, they get thrown in the "new age" section... There's a duo called Strunz & Farah that are very latin, more world music kind of thing, they get thrown into the "new age" section...

So, I think, that due to the enormous amount of "diversity" in music we've gotten over the last 20 years, it's getting very hard to know what's what, and depending on your background, one may feel that a certain tune is one genre, where somebody else will say it's not...

www.123writemelody.com

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www.mp3.com/paulradelat

[This message has been edited by Paul Radelat (edited 08-25-2003).]

Genre is a mercurial thing. There are only so many notes, so many scales, so many grooves. The polka, for example, is nearly a universal dance rhythm. It shows up in the middle east, far east, Africa, and in rock and bluegrass.

One genre that's very specific is Blues. It's most common form is the twelve-bar shuffle beat. It usually goes a bar of the one chord, a bar of either four or one, then two bars of one followed by two bars of the four chord, two more of one, a bar of five, a bar of four , then two bars of one or a bar of one and a bar of five. The rest of Blues builds on this. It stays on the one chord longer or puts in stops in the first verse. Even "Stormy Monday" follows this formula but throws in some passing chords.

On the fringes of the Blues you'll get sixteen bar phrases, minor chord things like "the Thrill is Gone", and other extrapolations, but once you push on blues a little too hard, it becomes Jazz or Rock. The line moving back from Jazz and Rock to Blues blurrs even more.

I like styles and genres. It's fun playing different cultural grooves and trying to make it sound authentic.
As a sales tool, it's great. There are audiences for genres so if you can label your music it's easier to sell.


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Mike Dunbar Music

I would consider the "12-bar blues" as you describe it, Mike, as a "song form", not necessarily a "genre". There are 8-bar blues, 16-bar blues, etc, and I've even heard some Robben Ford stuff that is categorized as blues have more of a jazz-fusion flavor with unique song forms and complex chords. Some of what Hendrix played was considered "blues". Certainly Jimmy Page played a lot of blues on the first 3 Led Zepplin albums - Clapton, in various band permutations also played a lot of blues. However, I don't think Eddie Van Halen played the blues. I don't think Muddy Waters played anything BUT the blues.

However, to try to stick to Brian's format, the "Blues" would be an American song form (one of the very few) of a repeating 8, 12, or 16-bar form usually incorporating a shuffle or triplet feel and using the 3 primary chords in a key in most cases - with a few exceptions in the last 4 bars. Melodically, it can be both instrumental and vocally played, with lyrical content favoring sadness, desperation, or melancholy.

The range of sub-genres cover the delta blues with extremely simple chord progressions and instrumentation, to Chicago blues (often with horns), to Memphis blues (a la Elvis), to NY blues (usually jazzier). Even strict jazz artists such as Coltrane, Joe Pass, and Felonius Monk were known to play the blues. I don't think anyone in California has the right to play the blues - surfer music, yes, blues, no...

Well, that's my shot at one genre...


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Larry
www.audibleresponse.com

Ahhhh the Blues...

Nobody can agree (it seems) on what it is or it ain't..

Consider this...

The song "Come Rain Or Come Shine"..Blues..?
Most people would say no.....

BUT.. lets say the only version of that song you ever heard was the one by Ray Charles..or better yet..the one by Albert King...well..I think most folks would say "Wow...what a cool blues song"

Blues is (in my opinion) in the doin'..not in the structure..

Frank Sinatra singing "One for My Baby" ain't nothing but the Blues..as Blues as Jimmy Reed..or Luther Allison..or whoever...

The way the "genre" concept is administered these days seems limiting to me..
I most often am cast as an "Americana" artist...I honestly don't know what that means...
The assumption seems to be that people don't want a variety of sounds and styles from one artist anymore...
I think that's wrong..
It's something we've been sold by the merchandisers cause' it makes it easier for them to market product..

My CD did real well..almost 6000 units with no real publicity..most of the CDs were sold from radio exposure on WGN or off the stage at live gigs.
In both of those settings I do a really varied mess of songs..from silly folk novelty songs to straight ahead blues to standards...
All of those styles are represented on the CD..It works for me and I think it would work for everybody.( provided they are genuinely fluant(sic) in the various styles employed)
We're not giving the audience enough credit..we're trying to outthink them when we narrow our art to a specific "genre"

I'm sure that many (including Brian) will say that I'm not being realistic..that I'm not viewing the current scene as it really is vis a vie marketing and such.

That certainly may be so...but...I think I'm right.

Bob



[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 08-25-2003).]

Sounds about as real as it gets to me Cobber.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Bob,

I don't think it's an issue of being realistic.. you used several genre names to describe yourself and when you did, people probably got a reasonable idea of what those songs might sound like.. that's the benefit of genres. It's like saying that the food you are going to get is a pasta dish with red sauce.. it could taste a lot of different ways, but it's helpful to know that's it's pasta with red sauce none the less in case you like or dislike that as a food. Knowing it's a folk novelty song gives someone a starting point.. it means not to expect an industrial death metal instrumental right? As I said above, I am not looking to suggest people are right or wrong.. just to learn what people think about genres and how they define them.

I've already found some interesting points in this discussion, hopefully it will continue. I will check in again from Portland, OR.

Brian

You know, Brian..

Given our past history I think most people will expect a battle on this one ..but...sorry to disappoint all of you..it's not gonna happen.

I think Brian and I are close on this..

Genre referring to a specific song is OK...
It's like.."which bin do I put this in ?"

that's a fair question and it's just like seperating meat from chicken at the butcher shop.

What I'm talking about is labeling an artist the same way...
It's limiting (again, my opinion) and holds the artist to a certain style.
Now, if the artist is comfortable with one type of expression..that's great..it's the artists choice..
But when other people start labeling the artists work as this genre or that genre..well..that's not so great.

My genre is "Bob", thank you...I'm most comfortable doing Bob..you can dance to it..you can sing along and you can share most of it with your kids.

When I mentioned those different kinds of music I do in my act, I wasn't thinking of them as "genres" but styles of music..
Maybe it's just semantics after all..we could be saying exactly the same thing..
I dunno...
I'm on medication..

By the way, Brian..
I came home with both feet and all 10 toes..
So..I can still dance !

Drive carefully..

bob

One more thing...

We're different on one major point..

Your restaurant analogy about not wanting to be "surprised"..

I love surprises..
I love it when I see something I never imagined before..
Many times I've tasted something completely beyond what I thought I was getting..
Sometimes I hated it..
Other times I loved it..

Music is the same way for me..
When I turn on the radio..I want to be surprised..
I don't always know what I want to hear..
I can remember clearly the first time I heard Blood Sweat and Tears..
I was driving into Chicago on the Edens and listening to the radio..
It was a top 40 station and I knew what to expect..
All of a sudden I've got horns and this amalgam of jazz and rock and roll blaring out at me.
I'd heard jazz horns before..but what the hell were they doing on my top 40 radio station.
I had to pull the car over and listen till it was over.

That's what I'm talking about..
In todays world that song would not have been played on my friendly little top 40 station..it would have been classified as outside the top 40 genre and I might never have heard it at all.

Thanks kids

Bob

I love surprises too, but I like to know when they are coming

Yeah, I agree. I like to play different styles too. People always ask me "What kind of music do you play?"

I answer: "What would you like to hear?"

Sometimes we define music by the instruments played, rather than the tunes played. This happens in bluegrass. A musician who used to play in my band, Mike Daly, plays dobro in a band called Hayseed Dixie. They play AC/DC songs on bluegrass instruments...great stuff.

Mike

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Mike Dunbar Music

Mike..

Gosh..it seems to me that if you know when a surprise is coming, it ain't much of a surprise.

At my age, a firm bowel movement is a surprise !

Bob

I tell them, "What I'd like to hear somebody else play a whole heap better than I can."
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Actually, recent surprise for me was hearing Robert Palmer doing "The Tender Trap"... He did a good job too..

www.123writemelody.com

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www.mp3.com/paulradelat

Hello Brian,
Here is our contribution for genre:
'Out and Proud' or 'PRIDE'.
The only real guideline we can think of is that the song be performed by a GLBT(GayLesbianBiTrans) person/group and be about some aspect of gay life.
For far too long now the straight and the gay communities have held their music appreciation/awards seperately. We are not saying that any of these should stop, like The OUTMUSIC Awards or GLAAMA, but instead Brian and The JustPlainFolksMusicAwards could on another level be a pioneer and honor a gay musician. There we said it!
Don't Ask, Don't Tell
Unmask the Hell
Don't Lie...
Diversify

Peace and Pride,
chris and michael VonTanner
http://www.cdbaby.com/vontanner

To the VonTanners..

A very good idea whose time has come !

Bob

Chris and Michael,

I think "Out and Proud" is brilliant. It's a hook. I would imagine the best way to become a genre would be to assemble a number of songs that fit the title "Out and Proud".

A singer/songwriter I've worked with passed away this week. Her name was Sara Jordan. Sara got sick soon after we cut some work tapes for a cd I was producing on her. We were never able to work further, before she was taken by cancer, leaving behind her brave partner, Amy Jordan. If you can organize a contest or award, through JPF or not, I'd like to donate the production of a song, or one day of recording to the winner in the names of Sara and Amy Jordan.



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Mike Dunbar Music

While I can understand having stuff like para olimpics etc, I fail to see how being straight or queer should enter into music, and so see no point in having music awards of any kind based on sexual preferance or confusion.
Sure is enough bent artists/writers. whatever out there makling it in the music world in spite of their self, or otherwise applied labels.
It's only rock and roll no matter what ya call it.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Hey Cobber...

Everybody has their own views on this issue....
I came up in the music business around a bunch of gay people..

My mother had crossed over late in life and that was my entre into the scene.

While I'd agree that there is no "necessary" division, the fact is that the gay scene is seen as "different"..

The positive side in setting a seperate side for the material is that ultimately people would see it's really all just art.

Before there was a Black Miss America there were no Black contestants in the Miss America pageant.
After Miss Black America became a factor, black women began to show up in and indeed win Miss America.
N ow, that's a shabby example of what I'm talking about..but it is the process I'm referring to.

Rememberr...I'm an old time hippie..

Bob

Point taken and considered Cobber.
Fact is, many camp artists and writers have indeed made their mark, and are held in esteme for their respective talents in their field without having to go into the "Gay and proud " routine.
Most admittedly only came out of the closet after making the grade so to speak. Well to my knowledge anyway.
So I don't know there is a true connection twix the arts of any kind, and physical attributes show cases.
After all, there has been every colour under the sun in the miss world, or whatever they call them things, and winners from most of them I would imagine.
I don't follow them as it is no doubt eveident by my stating I only assume.
I do know since finding out Elton was a bit of a shirt lifter, I tend to gag when I hear him sing a love song, even though I know Bernie wrote the words and I don't know what his prefferances are.
And I don't need to thanks all the same.
Same thing doesn't happen when, oh dear. Mental block. That Canadian chick, (I'll think of her name as soon as I click go I know) sings.
Just my way of seeing things, no doudt governed by what I see as acceptable sexual practice, and I know it will be taken as biase by some, but all opinios are.
It does not stop me thinking" now that is a good song." Just makes me check out last night's dinner some when my mind gets a picture of Elton singing this to one of his lovers, and what prompted it. spit spit spit.
Lump isn't in my throat when I think of the afore mentioned lady who I still can't remember then name of.
Going to have to hit the go button and then come back and edit it in when it comes to me while the site is saying thanks for the post.
Only type of thing I ever saw seperated people in music was stuff like The Cotton Club where most of the acts were black but blacks were not accepted as patrons.
Regards.
Graham


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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Here's my insight: I think in large part the genres Brian listed at the top can be distinguished from each other even though you ignore the words.

Only very few exceptions: "Christian Contemporary", some "Holiday", etc. are distinguished by what the lyrics are talking about rather than the meter/tempo/arrangement/rhythm/melody shape, etc.

A couple of those categories are not about the music OR the lyrics, but who wrote it. "Singer/Songwriter" is a genre? I wouldn't call it that.

So by that analysis "Out and Proud" would not be a musical genre either. And I say that having written music for words specifically about and in support of lesbian relationships myself several times.

I go along with that PD. Always wondered about that. After all there are a whole heap of singer/songwriters out there, and a lot of different genre amoung them.
Think it boils down to the fact some of these compulsive label makers get lost for something to do from time to time.
Looking for stuff for the radio show, I rarely download anything in singer/songwriter genre as I am looking f0or a balanced mix of genre for the show, and singer/songwriter tells me nothing about what is coming.
GRaham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Well...

they do have divisions for male and female...so how about.."still trying to sort it out"...

Seems a shame to have to deal with it...but that's easy to think from where I sit...

I don't have to worry..I'm white...Male...Heterosexual...heck, I got it knocked !!!

Cobber..I think you're talking about K D Lang...Great singer....

Old Joke..
What has 90 pairs of combat boots..
196 tatoos
265 piercings..and no makeup ?

The front row at a KD Lang concert.

Bob (I got a million of 'em)Young

Thanks Cobber. Why couldn't I remember that. Seeing her and Tony Bennett duet one time on TV was one of the few times I figure the box is worth having.
Good one. I have to remember that, for the next time I talk to Carlotta.
They have male and female sections in Miss America? Struth I knew there was confusion up there but never realised how bad.
The girls are the ones with the head ache guys.
JUst got Judy and my Slim Dusty thing up on the soundclick site Cobber if ya brave.
First take but I have done worse. Got the show today so hadn to yell and run so Jude doidn't thihnk I'd gone to sleep on it.
Take care Cobber.
Graham


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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Thank you, Mike and Bob for the support and to that other guy, who's name I can't remember, oh you know...the one that posted this:
"I do know since finding out Elton was a bit of a shirt lifter, I tend to gag when I hear him sing a love song, even though I know Bernie wrote the words and I don't know what his prefferances are.
And I don't need to thanks all the same.".
It's statements like this that show the need...
'Out and Proud'
The VonTanners

I agree "statements like that" show the need. Jeez, guys. GLBT couples have the same emotions as anybody else.

But I am not sure "genre" is the correct place to make this distinction.

Awards and other recognition to writers or performers in various categories is a fine idea; no point in having pop vocalists competing against opera singers. But I think we need to separate the classifications of "musical genre" from "what the lyrics are about". These are unrelated to each other and any classiciation system that tries to combine them will break down in complexity.

Dolly Parton writes her own stuff. So we put her in "singer/songwriter"? I don't think so.

I wrote a decidedly country tune to go with lyrics in support of gay marriage. What "genre" is that? If I change the style to Blues did I change the genre?

If "genre" means a combination of "musical style" with "lyrical subject" then you get so many tiny sliced categories it starts to look like the Emmy awards. If we identify say two dozen musical styles, and one dozen subject categories, we end up with 24 times 12 = 288 "genres". Throw in a half dozen categories of "who performed it" and you have 1728 genres. How is such a classification system useful to anybody other than to invent so many categories that more people can say they won something?

Well, genre, in our case, is whatever Brian calls it. He has done a good job delineating genres for the contests. Genre, as applied to popular music, is generally defined by the music business. Roughly speaking, it's the titles on the cd bins at the store.

In order to create a new genre, one must name a set of pieces, and present a model that can be recognized by the discerning public. Specifically, "Out and Proud" becomes a genre for our purposes when: 1. most people here accept it as the name of a group and type of songs; and 2. Brian decides to include it.

Starting a new genre for a political, social, racial, sexual, religious, or otherwise interested group that is not already deemed a genre by the music business could open a flood of requests, quickly to turn to righteous demands, And if you don't believe that, open a contest genre with only a few available entrants and I'll have my "bald men" album finished in one week, ready to demand my own genre and scoop up a prize.

If it was my decision, I'd say the time to start a new genre is when I found it undeniable by the size of it's literature and acceptance.

So, have at it! you've got a great hook. I think it's a good idea. Now you need to assemble a literature. Get writing, organize a contest, start threads here and elsewhere, network and publicize. Write a bunch of Out and Proud songs. Start a genre.

All the Best,
Mike


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Mike Dunbar Music

Good one Mike.
There are a lot of groups out there trying to gain ground for their group and belief.
Most get their causes heard in the mainstream because of what type of music they do, not by what the content is.
PD's maths sounds pretty sound to me also.
Graham




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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Vontanner et al,

The problem I see with having an exclusively Gay/Lesbian type of "category" is that it does the opposite of what I thought most people wanted.. it's segragates instead of integrates.. It's like my total aversion of having "best black artist" type awards..ack! The irony for me was when Michael Jackson used to win both the black artist award and the regular artist awards.. then I think most people realized how stupid the distinction was.. and we saw less and less "black artist" awards.

The point was made that in most cases, the genres are music production related.. there are some speciality categories (like Holiday, CC, Novelty) where lyrics are what sets it apart. As for the Male and Female Singer Songwriter awards, our distinctions there started as an album only award, and was for solo artists who wrote and sang the songs, which had a diverse array of genres on the album which didn't allow for placement in folk, contemp, pop, rock etc.. we added the singer-songwriter song award this year for the best songs written and performed by a single writer/singer. The reason we separated it into male and female was simple because we get more quality entries into those 2 genres than probably the next 4 largest genres combined.. we want to recognize great music.. that was a reasonable way to do it. Plus, if you tell someone you are going out to see a singer songwriter perform.. most people have a fairly reasonable and accurate idea for what that means musicially.. same as if you go to a Metal concert or a Dance club to hear Dance divas or a Jazz show etc..

As for Out and Proud, we have no shortage of openly gay artists who enter the awards and have won in every genre. Should we pull them out of their mainstream genres where they are winning and relegate them to a "special" and segregated genre like someone in a circus sideshow? That really seems like a step backwards to me. If our gay and lesbian members come to me in numbers and really want that distinction, I might consider it, but this is the first ever such request, because frankly, our gay and lesbian members have done just fine winning awards in mainstream genres on their own with no special distinction being neccessary. Also, what types of music would be included in an Out and Proud genre? Would it be stereotypical stuff like Dance, Cabaret, etc? If it were all styles of music, how would I even know which artists were gay and which weren't? (Sure, I know some artists who are clearly open about their sexuality like you guys are, but we get 10,000 albums and 150,000 songs.. and I am not going to try and guess who is or isn't gay.. nor do I want to "out" anyone who isn't interested in being "outed."

My former bandmate Michael (who passed away last summer and I wrote a full length article about for those who remember) was openly gay, but I am quite certain he would have felt it was a big mistake to segregate his music and other gay and lesbian members music into their own "genre." Sexual preference to me isn't a genre. And then you have issues about transgendered, bisexual etc.. and where do they go?

I think the biggest irony of all is the fact that the gay influence in all music is very strong.. in fact, I think music has been one of the first and foremost artistic success stories for gay and lesbians to come out and be accepted by mainstream music lovers for a long time. Many of the top artists are gay or lesbian. I can't imagine those artists would want to be pulled out of their fields and placed in a separate holding pen when they are doing perfectly fine leading the charts in the mainstream.

I welcome any additional viewpoints on this...

Brian

Brian,

As I read Vontanner's post, I thought the suggestion was for songs that were about gay life. I've heard few songs in that category. I don't believe he was suggesting including songs simply written by gays. Heck, gays can write R&B or country. As a matter of fact, I've been thinking about writing a song about some gay friends just to offer it. I'm an out-of-the-closet heterosexual since my fortieth birthday, but I can celebrate my gay friends.

All the Best,
Mike

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Mike Dunbar Music

I've always found the whole genre thing to be very divisive. My very first favorite band was Queen and as a result I grew up as a songwriter aspiring to never write two songs that sounded anything alike. That could likely be my undoing in terms of commercial success as a songwriter, but I'm very grateful that my first inspiration was such an eclectic band! I love the idea that one could listen to a Queen album and hear a heavy rockin' tune, a perfectly crafted pop song, an out there operatic inspired tune, a folk song, a piano ballad etc...all on one album! One of the things I'm proudest about my own writing is that I've crossed a lot of genres, and the songs that stand out for me are the ones that somehow manage to defy catagorization. Anyway, enough about me...ha, ha. I understand the "need" for genres, but I think the guide lines should be based on the song itself, not the color, race, creed, nationality, or sexual orientation of the songwriter. Did I address the original topic of this thread at all?

Not to be argumentative, but The American Heritage Dictionary defines genre as: A category of artistic composition, as in music or literature, marked by a distinctive style, form, or 'content'.
Peace and Pride,
chris VonTanner

I too kind of thought we were talking about content..

My references to preferences had to do with the fact that most straight people aren't yet ready to sing songs about gay issues.

What I mean is that if the song relates to gay sensibilities it's going to be a "gay" artist performing it.
Certainly songs have been written by gay men and women that have been sung by straight people but these deal with love and emotion in the general sense.

I wrote a song a while back about a woman about to "out" herself.
She was asking a "straight" friend "Will I see you on THE OTHER SIDE"..wondering if their friendship would endure the revelation.
I was unable to find anyone interested in performing the song because it dealt with a lesbian speaking in first person.

My suggestion is to do what Mike suggests..
organize your intents..if you bring Brian a reasonable suggestion I think he will treat it fairly.
If this appears to be a viable area of interest I think he will take a look at it.

I hope so....

Bob Young

Well said Brian...

I think you're right on the money on this one!

That's cool about your song...mine was written for a female and I never could find a good singer who was willing to try it....
Jeeez..maybe it's just a crappy song...I never considered that...

oh well...

Bob

So the idea here (as suggested by Mike Dunbar, Vontanner and Bob) is to have a category that deals with gay issues/viewpoints lyrically? If we remain consistent with how we've done the awards since day one, that would actually be possible assuming 1 condition was met:

There are enough quality songs and/or albums that focus on that viewpoint/topic, that are still in the running when we've narrowed the 150,000 songs and 10,000 albums down to the nominations quantities. That's where things get tough as I can only think of 1 song so far that had a specifically gay viewpoint that is also likely to get a nomination. (It's actually among my favorite performances so far of the material I personally have heard.) But it seems, so far at least, unlikely we'd have a large enough collection to add it as a genre, but it's not impossible based on previous years. We don't finalize the list of genres include in the awards until we've narrowed the songs and albums way way down and determine what is still remaining. What we don't want to do is nominate weak songs/performances/albums simply to create a new genre. Clearly some of the smaller, less common genres do have lower bars to exceed to gain a nomination as compared to large genres like Singer Songwriter, Pop, Rock, Rap, Jazz, Country etc.., we still have to have a collection of strong songs in large enough numbers to represent it nonetheless.

I also think there's another issue to consider as well. If we accept a viewpoint (i.e., a gay and lesbian perspective) as a legitimate music genre, then we have to also accept other common viewpoints that are expressed across a large number of songs. Some of those viewpoints are benign.. some are controversial. Using the harshest example would be people who hold intolerant viewpoints on any number of issues. Would we accept that collection as a genre in and of itself? What about political viewpoints? We probably have enough political songs to have a genre for that.. but what if the collection only covers anti conservative viewpoints? Or anti liberal viewpoints? Then what do you do? I'd rather see the best of those songs end up in the novelty category rather than a "liberal" or "conservative" genre. What about music that takes a sexist viewpoint? There's plenty of that to be found in Metal, Hard Rock and Rap. Should we consider a genre for that viewpoint? I'd say no. But within their musical styles, if the work merits attention, it would be nominated within Metal or Rap etc... How about lyrics that take a sexually explicit viewpoint of any type? Or like Mike suggested, how about one of the most openly discriminated groups in the world.. Bald men.. or fat women.. or any number of other conditions people are born with and discriminated against for?

I think beyond this important discussion, we still have to go back to square 1. That means we need enough quality submissions focusing on a gay/lesbian story/viewpoint (and as someone mentioned, it's not uncommon for gay love songs to be written gender neutral, so who can tell the intent?) and so far that seems unlikely. But we still have 100,000 more songs to sort through so anything is possible.

Brian

PS: I've written (and co-written) and performed songs from a gay point of view many times Bob. One of my personal favorites is called "Send a message" which is about a gay man lamenting the loss of many of his friends to aids and reflecting on his former partner's impending death from it as well. In that particular case, I co-wrote it with my good friend who did, in fact, die of aids last year. I never felt awkward about performing it and now it has even more meaning to me. Until this post, I hadn't really thought of the fact it was from a "gay" characters point of view.. and in some ways, I really don't want to frame it that way, even though it's true. To me, it's a human song about loss and regrets and coming to terms with death. The sexual identity of the characters is irrelevant to me.

FYI, I forgot to spell check my post and had deleted it so I could repost it after spell checking and Bob replied before I got it reposted thus his response appears above my post.

As for the issue of finding someone to perform a song and worrying about whether or not it's "crappy," I always took the approach that Elton John took when he couldn't find anyone to record/perform his songs.. he did them himself.. so did I when I used to perform regularly..

That seems the way to go Brian. If the numbers are there,and it fits into the scheme of things, then why not?
As to writing toward a part of life the writer only knows by observation, it happens all the time. That's what writers do. Look at life and relate their view of it.
Would be a lot of good stories left untold if we all only wrote our own experience, given not all learn to use then gift of story telling. Or want to.
Amazing Grace I understand was written by a slave ship Captain, Summertimw was a Gershwin song. Well Gershwin and Heywood. Think I spelt that right.
As you say though Brian, it does open a can of worms in offering the same conditions to whatever group comes up with both quality and numbers.
Shaping into a productive debate.
Graham



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I think most people tend to sing songs that they can relate to, even if what they are relating to about the song is different from the intention of the writer. A song about "loving your fellow man" or "peace on earth" could easily work for a Christian artist, but conversely if the theme of song is overtly Christian a non-Christian singer will probably not relate and might not choose to sing it. A song that is specifically about a gay issue is simply more likely to be of greater interest to a gay singer. A song with a universal theme will strike a chord that crosses many barriers. U2's "One", for example, carries a universal message that is very easy to relate to from any point of view. If not for the video, the underlying story line of the struggle with "coming out/being gay" may not even be apparent. Thanks to Vontanner for providing a specific definition of genre. With regard to "content", perhaps it is a question of how specifically a genre needs to be defined. The good thing is that a great song will stand on its own irregardless of category. I've found everyone's ideas in this thread valid and thought provoking.

Thank you Brian for reconsidering and giving some guidelines, quality and quantity, and thank to you other jpf folks for your support on this issue!
As for the onslaught of new genres (political, bald, fat...), I think the 'if we do this all [naughty word removed] will break loose' is not a very positive or healthy approach.
What if you tryed a different mind set and thought,
'if we do this, we will be openly supporting a very deserving and powerful segment of our community', things might be put into perspective alittle better.
I think each issue would need to be treated individually.
Peace and Pride,
chris VonTanner

PS: I, too, am bald and my baldness doesn't even deserve mention when taking about the hatred, violence, ridicule and bigotry I personally have suffered as an 'out' gay man!

Interesting and challenging thread here.

So far as the topic of a catagory for gay music, I don't see the potential response to it as "all hell breaking loose", rather I see the response being "What the f*#@ is this catagory here for?"
The only motivation can be political, a matter of personal politics. I don't see it as a valid way to classify music.

I could write a list which would probably require several pages of all the gay artists I enjoy, yet I don't happen to be concerned about the fact they are gay. My enjoyment of their music does not require that I be reminded they are gay, it simply means nothing at all to me.
Labeling music as "gay" would seem to me to be a measure of division and separatism, rather than that of inclusion of gay people.
With such a catogory, why would there not then be catagories as described in other posts...songs written by "fat", "bald", "short", "accidentally neutered", "virgin", "frigid", "elderly",
..."peg-legged", "cross-eyed", "knock-kneed", "pot-bellied","downright ugly" and "guys who ain't got none fer ages" classes of songwriters?
Why? Because they doesn't and shouldn't matter in the grand scheme of enjoying music.

-GP

I guarantee you, if there are six or seven thousand entries that are songs about being bald...not songs written by bald people...then Brian would seriously consider a bald category. I personally came out from under the ball cap years ago, but have never written any bald songs. My bad.

It would be great if this were a world where positive attitudes and good intentions were all one needed to defeat evildoing. It's not as easy or as simple as that. Beside those things you need political clout and that's spelled N U M B E R S. Numbers of votes, numbers in the bank account, and, in this case, numbers of songs are what gets things happening. It all comes down to clout...political, military, social, monetary...it is clout (spelled N U M B E R S) that counts in human endeavor. Think I'm wrong? Ask Bill Clinton, or Saddam Hussein, or Arnold Shwarzenegger, or Bill Gates, or Barbara Streisand, or Ralph Nader, or Elton John, or Nelson Mandela, or Rush Limbaugh, or...well...anyone with clout. I'm sorry, if you build it, they won't come. Not unless it's the biggest, prettiest, most prestigious "it" around, and that takes numbers. Am I wrong? Prove it!

Mike

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Mike Dunbar Music

OK, I take back what I said about finding
everyones ideas in this thread valid. After reading over the thread again, I realized how hateful and ignorant Graham's comments are. I actually had skipped over the majority of his posts the first time. Can't imagine why, when the points are so strongly substantiated with well-thought-out references like "that Canadian chick".

You read intentions in there that were not in there I am afraid Fella. I am afraid.
Usually best to stick to what is actually said rather than what we assume was being unsaid.
I had in fact suffered a mental block on the KDs name. May sound strange to you considering I love the lady, but I sometimes have to go through my kids names to get the right one too.
I knew someone who would tell me, and save me going all the way over to the record rack to find out.
Beauty of debate is misunderstanding has a place in the scheme as every thing is there to be discussed and maybe form a changed point of view for some, and even more important something postitive may come out of it.
All may not agree on all points, but most will agree on most, in most cases,, and so al are working toward something maybe better, or new, whuch may lead to the something better.
Good points in that post Cisco.
Graham

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Graham, If you'd like to stick with what was actually said, let me quote you: "I do know since finding out Elton was a bit of a shirt lifter, I tend to gag when I hear him sing a love song, even though I know Bernie wrote the words and I don't know what his preferances are." I took issue with that statement in particular. Hardly valid to the topic, and in my mind hateful and ignorant. I do not want this to become a personal debate. I simply followed up on my original comment, because I didn't want to go on record as having agreed with a statement that I considered so offensive.

I'm not going to defend Graham..he is certainly equipped to defend himself.

I will say that many of his opinions are different than mine...

And I will also say that he is one of the most honest and direct people I've ever come to know.
I'd much rather disagree with an honest man than stand in agreement with someone that might change their opinion at any time.
Australians in general (and I've got a few in my family) speak more directly than we Americans.
It takes some getting used to...

Graham is a good friend and I can say that we agree on far more than we disagree.
Hell...when I finally find my way to Esperance we might share a dance as well as a mug or two !

Bob Young

Kester. That I find some of the sexual practices of some people offensive, and I stated that, as expalnation of why I don't get a good vibe out of the mental picture that comes while listening to an artist perform any given piece, isn't really the issue here, and to tsake excreption to anything said toward a debate is a bit restictive.
The thought of anybody planing peter up any poop hole will always make me wanna spit I am sure. And should not be an issue in the actual debate we are having here.
And I don't need to go to lengths to be proven right or wrong I hasten to add.
That would detract from the subject in hand.
As even this cross banter does I ajm aware.
Thanks for the nice things Bob. I do feel I need to let you know a little more about me though on reading your not change their opinion line.
If I didn't think it possihble being partn of a debate on any subject had the possability of changing my opinion, I doubt I would bother.
After all. If I start adebate, I am either looking for other's thoughts to help me build my knowledge, and opinion on that subject, or I want to try to foster some of my thoughts onto others in the hope of getting something happening toward an idea.
For wat it is worth Kester.
When a small group of people in Esperance decided it was time for us to have a counselling service, I was Vice Charman of the founding committee.After all the lobbying of government at all levels, news articles and public meeting was over and we got the funding to go ahead.
Im was initially the lone voice in there who when seting up our fields moved for the servise to include homosexuals within the client base.
Most of the comite didn't believe, or want to believe we had any gay people in lovely litle Esperance, and the rest didn't think they deserve a place in society anyway.
Takes all sorts to make a committe representive of a comunity.
That's how they got a camel ya know. Committe was trying to make a horse.
Happy to say we got a fair representation of all facits of our town covered.
Both in our councelling tools, and in our councellor.
Some 20 years on, I am no longer on the committee having decided it was working fine withnout me, and the service is functioning as it should, and Im had other stuff to do.
Today also, one of the main wheels in it is gay.
As Bob says. I guess we do spit it out a bit more direct than some. Heck. Wonder if that is where I got the Mister Blunt tag from?
Reading through the posts here I see mention thanking Brian for reconsidering.
Now to me the re is redundant as I saw at no srtage was Brian doing anything other thann considering the subject of what genres could be included.
He, like I, and all of us has offered our thoughts toward the subject all along.
That you state you only grazed ovre my post Kester, suggest it would be a wise move to read and digest all of any post any of us feel we want to coment on.
If we all stick to the subject, I am sure we will come to some conclusion some of at least will be happy with.
And yep Bob. I'll save a dance for ya Cobber. Not a slow one, and not the last one though Cobber.
Graham



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Yo...BOYZ....Woa...
We really didn't think this 'gay' genre posting would lead us in such a disgusting direction.
So we have this to say about that: Making a statement like...'it makes me gag!', first of all is completely offensive to us (who asked you to post your feelings/physical reaction to two men kissing/****ing anyway). And second of all if these feelings distract you so much from the subject at hand than be a man and step up to the plate and take responsibilty for what you are posting. If this is how you feel and that's okay with you, then be the ignorant bigot that you are. If not than get help, homophobia is oppressive not only to the homo, but even more to the homophobic.
And as for the rest of the bigots who for some reason need to defend their brothers (he's a really a nice guy, but he just doesn't like gays), you too, need to educate yourselves.
As Brian says 'we're all in this together' so take a deep breath and stay out of my bedroom!
Peace and Pride,
chris & michael VonTanner

To the vonTanners..

I don't think speaking on behalf of my friend makes me a bigot...
I try to do as little name calling as possible, especially when I'm talking about people I don't know.

I don't think you know me well enough to make judgements like that..

I have learned thru my considerable time on this planet that precious few of the people I've met are "perfect" (by anyones definition)
A good friend of mine is gay and loves guns.
I hate guns.
Should I cut him out of my life ?
No..there are many wonderful things about this man that I admire that are much more a positive thing than his guns. (in my opinion)

Please don't call me a bigot...

I'm not...and I don't deserve to be spoken about in those terms.

I'm a lifetime democrat and moderate to liberal politically...a few years ago I met a moderate to conservative Republican and we had some heated debates.
Eventually we fell in love, got married and 12 years later we still have those heated debates !

She is convinced I'm a hopeless old hippy and I believe she is an incorrigible reactionary.

I would die for her and I think perhaps she for me....

So..please...no name calling..

Thanks

Bob

Oh...and as for "educating myself"..

My mother came out in Hollywood in 1962..
I was there and shared the revelation, the relief, and the pain.
As a 16 year old I learned a great deal about people..not just gay people or straight people..but people,
My mothers husband (my stepfather) was an Irish retired Chicago Fire Captain...a more "macho" man never walked the planet.
He never stopped loving my mother..
She was at his side when he died in 1974 of emphezema..
So...I don't need any "education"..thank you.
I know how this stuff works....

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 10-03-2003).]

Bob,
I apologize, especially for the generalizations thrown out in my previous post...I never intended to include you...I was speaking mostly to Mike and Graham and I guess I was just alittle nervous about naming specific names.
As for posting any further discussion on this topic, I am only going to respond and post on the original concept of just what makes up a genre.
We, and I mean most of us posting here, are bordering on SPAM for all I can tell. Thank you for your last post, Bob...ironically, I would love to hear you and your mother's story sometime.
Peace and Pride,
chris VonTanner