JPF Home Page Forums Post QUESTIONS or COMMENTS here!

What Blakeh said <g>
People can get feedback on the lyric feedback forums. I "do" think the "regulars" should make a concious effort not to let posts slip by on the lyric boards with out any feedback, cause there's been a whole lot of new posters and no doubt will be more. By the same token, the new posters should respond to comments they do get. I haven't been there much for a while but Brian said there were zeros getting by so I went in and took care of a string of zeros and then last time I looked , there was a string of ones. You dont get many comments if you don't respond to the comments you do get.
(nickels worth)

Gotta agree with you. I can't always get to the boards, but do make a point of looking at the o's and 1's, Not a very good feeling to feel discounted. If a title doesn't grab us,we can always comment on that, others have done so for me, and I appreciate it. And by taking a looksee we might gain, maybe there is a twist that we haven't thought aboutin this lyric and we've missed it.

Would also like to say a big thanks, to Blakeh for stepping up the numbering. I'm getting down to a manageable number for the final five. Thanks, Jeannette

Why do we enter contests? To hopefully win, right? A candidate for public office doesn't generally vote for the other guy(s) as a courtesy or a show of respect, does he? Just another way of thinking about this.

Greg

Hello from Baltimore after a second wonderful show (of 27) on this East Coast Roadtrip.

1. We will not post individual results. There are many reasons, not the least of which are time and manpower, but more than that, this is to recognize great lyrics, not embarrass those that didn't make it. Judging is NEVER an exact science. It is just a collective set of opinions. The only fair and honest way to judge, in my opinion, if for all of us to be FANS.. and vote our hearts. Anything else is using someone elses criteria for what we should pick (i.e. industry norms etc...). Vote honest and everyone will get an equally fair shot. And those who don't make it into the nominees have nothing to be ashamed of. In my opinion every who enters gets an honorable mention. Sticking your neck out is VERY honorable. We're NOT going to cut anyone's head off.

The lyric feedback boards are there to get feedback. But I agree that no one should ask for feedback on these lyrics until the AWards are over, or at least your lyric wasn't nominated. Lets not let positive or negative influence creep in. That is why we blind screen music in the awards in general, to remove as much of that as possible.

3. Voting... if folks were told they weren't allowed to vote for themselves, then many wouldn't vote at all, which would mean they didn't fall behind any other lyric with their own votes for someone else. To be honest, if anyone here is really worried about someone getting an extra 5 points because they voted for their song first.. it is going to take a LOT more than 5 points to get nominated... so ask yourself.. if your lyric isn't really as good as a lot of others.. would you rather play a part in nominating GREAT lyrics that will represent the collective talent of the entries.. or help weaker ones get nominated making you look bad when you lose to them?

So.. once again.. JUST VOTE HONEST and let the chips fall where they fall.

And remember, no one out there will know who you voted for except me... and I know EVERYTHING!!!! = )

(The great Oz has spoken!)

Brian

Hi all,
I'm one of those half a million folks who jumped on the bandwagon, last minute, and just about managed to beat the deadline, and i really feel guilty about entering the competition this way! Never mind. I am quite excited to see so much talent in a single forum. Glad i joined this list! Nothing turns me on like good poetry.
There are some outstanding pieces, some bits of poetry that i wish i had written myself. But - i also noticed a tendency on many sides to imitate the lyrical meanderings of LSD-ridden metal songwriters, which means that if you can't get a decent rhyme, you think of something random to fill up the poetry and it sounds so abstruse that it passes off as "poetry". The guys who began the trend didn't know what they were doing - LSD the excuse - but it's sad that such styles should catch onto a sober public.
Nevertheless, such incidents are more than made up for by the great songs. There are songs that i can feel myself singing even as i read the naked lyric - that only proves how powerful they are. Way to go, yall!

Pramod
19 years old, and all the way from Bangalore, India

Hi folks,

Pramods post gave me an idea. We should certainly discuss general things on this while it's going on (what we liked and didn't like etc..) as long as (and this is VERY important!!!) we keep the comments general and don't refer to a specific entry or writer. (Or hint around at one..).

Something I noticed (and have gotten the most email about) was the large number of 9-11 songs. We got 100's of 9-11 tribute type songs and though I think writing one is a good therapy, I hate to say that some of the very weakest material we got was in the tribute form. If you are going to write about such a universally tragic and well known event, cliche's will stick out 10 times more and people will be very very sensitive to the weaknesses in those types of lyrics (I know I am.) I think many feel that if you are going to deal with such an important topic, it deserves a higher level of care or in some cases it will leave the listener (for the full songs) feeling worse rather than better after hearing it.

So, my thought is that every topic is fair game to write about, but if you are going to take on a challenge of a topic that is so important and personal to so many people, you need to rise to the challenge, or keep it as your own private response.

But in this case, that's just my opinion and there is no clear or definitive right or wrong.

Anyone else have a thought on that?

Brian

Just a quick update after 10 members votes have been registered (I haven't gotten to them all, but thought this was interesting):

48 votes counted (1 person only voted for 3 songs) and not a single song has received 2 votes. There are 48 different songs out of 48 possible different songs with a vote each (some worth more points obviously than others.)

This is going to be fun,

Brian

Brian,

I totally, %100 agree that many of the songs I have read about 9-11 (some of which aren't even in this contest) are way too trite. They do cause me to feel emotion, but the emotion's aren't good! I am often frustrated that such a tragic event is written about in such a way that to me, instead of honoring those who have suffered, it just is another corny song or lyric. I often wonder what the motivation is for those who write about 9-11 as well. Is it to "cash in" so to speak by using the tragedy or sufferings of others? Of course there are exceptions to the rule!!! And even many of my lyrics are about tragic events in my life and the lives of others. So, don't get me wrong. There are many really wonderful songs written about 9-11 with pure hearts and intentions. As for me though, I have made the decision to not write about 9-11. I honestly don't think I could write a single lyric that could entail what happened that day in all of our hearts and lives, nor do I feel that I could compose a song noble enough to bring honor to those who have suffered. I may write about 9-11 someday, but if I do I will be the only person who knows that the lyric is about that. For now though, I haven't even been able to put words on paper (before this email) with reguards to how deeply affected and hurt I feel. I pray as often as I can for my brothers and sisters who have suffered and are still mourning the loss of their loved ones. And I will continue to do so.

Sincerely,
Marla Reid

[This message has been edited by Marla (edited 09-05-2002).]

Found my 2 cents lying around, so I thought I throw them in.

Brian (aka the Great OZ) I agree with all your points about the voting and I support your decision totally.

Pramod, I think we all have to remember that there is no one legitimate topic or style of music that is correct. As creative people, we need to remain as open as possible, so we ourselves can grow. I long ago took to heart what Oscar Wilde said about writing - There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book, it is either well written or badly written.

And that certainly applies to 9/11 (or other weighty topics.) In addition, as one editor commented on a short story of mine "If you just want to send a message, use Western Union!" Meaning that nothing, not even the most important of topics, is more important than getting a good story across, or writing a good song. Looking forward to your comments.

Hi all,

Well I am at #127 and I have 15 lyrics noted for further study, meaning if I go at this rate, I will be trying to pare down a list of 63 (@12%) to just 5 candidates.

A daunting task!!

But I also printed out every lyric posted (a stack 7cm high of 20 bond.... oh that's 3 inches for those metrically challenged folks) and let me tell you that will be the biggest reward for me. Just think, a permanent record of what 535 people think is their best lyric. What a mine to learn from.

Thank you Brian!

Brian said: << 1. We will not post individual results. There are many reasons, not the least of which are time and manpower, but more than that, this is to recognize great lyrics, not embarrass those that didn't make it... >>

Since Brian is the Founder and Bard of the Boards, and he makes this his #1 point in no uncertain terms, I guess there's no point in trying to get this decision reversed. However, I think this is a missed opportunity, and I do have some comments on this matter that I think are important, and some other members may share my views:

1. JPFolks offers us many valuable things that we can't get elsewhere, and one very important thing it offers is a vehicle for feedback directly from our fellow songwriters. It has been suggested several times that the appropriate place for this is the lyric feedback boards.

I've checked out these boards, and the traffic there is quite low... so the opportunity for significant feedback based an estimated 500+ voters in this lyric contest is much higher than on the lyric feedback boards. Also, I've noticed on the feedback boards that many songs get zero or one response, and the songs that get more responses typically are responded to by the same group of members... so what you have there is a cluster of songwriters who give each other mutual support, which is a good thing, but of limited value.

In addition to the vastly enhanced statistical value of seeing lots of overall votes via the lyric contest, there would be another plus: the members voting in the lyric contest have just evaluated a huge catalog of lyrics - a great education in the art and craft of songwriting, as so many people have noted - and therefore are ideally qualified to give feedback.

And yet another plus: the voters are required to winnow down their choices to five, and must rank these, so the votes are absolutely sincere. A comment like "Nice song, Mike" on a lyric feedback board might be heartfelt, or possibly just polite. But each vote in the lyric contest represents one member who thought that the song was one of the top five.

2. As a singer/songwriter, I often find that when I write a new song, I am in love with it - but I don't have the perspective to know if it's really good. I can show it to my other songwriter friends, but the only way to really tell if the song works is to get out there in front of an audience and try it out. And since every performance and every audience is different, I really don't know for sure until I've played it at a bunch of shows. Getting feedback from 500+ voters would be a wonderful opportunity!

3. It's not clear to me, based on comments to date, how many participants would like to see the complete results, and how many would prefer just to know the finalists. If the majority of participants would like to see their standing, it would be a shame to deny this to the majority. Conversely, if only a handful want to see their standing, providing this info on a request basis would make everyone happy, if it were technically feasible.

4. I'm no expert on technical matters, but would it be difficult to provide either a web page or an automated return email with a list of all songs, identified by number only, and the number of votes they got - available to participants by request or sign-in with the lyric contest password? I don't see how anyone could possibly be embarrassed by this approach.

If we take the Clinton-esque approach, option #4 above would technically fulfill Brian's policy of "We will not post individual results", and would provide valuable information to those who actively request it - sort of like the Freedom of Information Act for songwriters.

5. A comment on the criterion of "songs that move you"... I found that some of the songs I like are humorous, and since these for the most part do not dwell on true love, heartache, death, faith or other blatantly emotional topics, it seemed hard at first to justify voting for them. But I've decided to think about it this way: if a song delights me with its wit, sophistication, images and fresh ideas, if it grabs me with the first line and doesn't let go, if it makes me say "Gosh, I wish I'd written that line" or makes me laugh out loud, I say that it moves me, and is eligible for my vote.

Well, that's my long-winded two cents. At any rate, I agree with all those who say that this contest has been a great learning experience... I've reviewed seven pages so far, four more to go, then final decisions. FYI, I've decided not to vote for my own lyric, because I can't possibly be objective about it.

Mike

Mike,

You're pretty new, so it's clear you haven't really had a chance to see what goes on around here. Some simple math for you:

1. You stated there's hardly any traffic on the lyric and lyric 2 boards. Keep in mind that:

Lyric 1 was launched at the beginning of 2001. So it's been up for roughly 600 days. It has over 86,000 posts. That is 145 posts per day since it started.

Lyric 2 was launched about 120 days ago and already has just under 18,000 posts which is ironically.. 145 posts per day.

The feedback ratio for both boards is over 10 to 1. 86,000 responses to 8000 posts on lyric 1 and 17,645 responses to only 1493 posts on lyric 2. (which is actually well over 11 responses per post.)

How much more posting activity do you need?
Sure, things are a little slower right now because it is the end of summer. But that's a massive number of posts on just 2 of the 60 message forums here. As for eyeballs on the lyric posts, we get roughly 40K hits per day on this site. (Some days over 100K, some days only about 30K)... The message boards receive the lions share of those page hits. We have about 2000 unique visitors to the lyric boards per day. (Somedays only 1500.. some days over 5000...). The overall site has gotten over a million hits on average every month this year. There's a lot of traffic generated from the membership.

So.. your statements are observations made on a short term basis without all the facts, which are publicly shown on the boards. (See the Post and Replies stats for each message board.) Would we like more traffic? Sure.. but it's pretty good already.

As for all the simple things you proposed (auto responders, databases etc..) if you want to fund the cost of this happening, email me and I will be happy to take your money, hire a programmer AND (very important) someone on our end to handle the incoming votes, and enter the info into a database, which would be programmed by a qualified web programmer and updated regularly. I estimate that 2000 dollars would probably cover it, though that's shooting low for what you are suggesting to do it right and maintain confidentiality. If you can write that check, we'll put it into gear for right away.

I think that a lot of people would be very disappointed in the results, even if they were available. My experience tells me that what you'll find (as others have also suggested) that most lyrics will get 15 or less points.. then there will be a small collection (perhaps 20-30 lyrics) that have most of the rest of the votes. I can't imagine what value it would be to you, for example, to learn that you tied with 200 other lyrics at 11 points each (I am just making a number up of course.. I haven't even read your lyric yet.) We aren't asking folks for feedback on why they voted the way they did... just what they voted for period. Without feedback on why and who voted the way they did, there's even less value.

In the end, if we were doing this to make a profit (or in our case, any money at all..) we'd throw in some fancy bells and whistles.. but I don't think it would help anyone because the info is so minimal. I also actually don't believe that 500 people will vote. And that may not be a bad thing really. Because to be able to cast an honest vote, you'll need to spend substantial time reading ALL the lyrics. If we had 5000 people vote, I'd know that the majority skimmed or didn't even read most of the entries. Then it would be like the Grammys.. a popularity contest with no correlation to the quality of the music that wins whatsoever. We're trying to offer something different and hopefully better than that.

If I hear from more than 50% of the entrants that they WANT the final numbers to be posted, I would consider it. But in reality, I think those who want that to happen are in a tiny minority. So, lets see what everyone else thinks.

Brian

Well okay, I guess I'm qualified. As someone who got a bad critique from the first contest I entered,I would plead with you not to give us our rankings. That was over 20 years ago and I still remember how worthless I felt. Some said it wasn't that bad, but you couldn't convince me. I didn't write anything for a couple years. why, if I wasn't any good?
True, a great many of us will get 10-15 points, but some will end up with none. (bound to happen) I really would rather not know I was dead last. Without explanations, the numbers aren't worth much. When and if you don't advance, then post your lyric on one of the boards and ask why?
and Mike, what really is the difference between some of us saying "oooh yeah! great song!" on a critique and saying "ooooh yeah! great lyric! I think I'll put it on my list" in this contest? looks pretty similar to me.

------------------
Harriet

Harriet,

That's exactly the reason I don't like to post results. Why make someone feel bad. I have never understood the point of a bad music review. To me, if you have the space in print/tv/radio etc.. to talk about an album or song, why not use it to let us know about something amazing. Why use the time we could have to learn about something really cool we would WANT to buy by telling us how much something sucks. It's never made any sense except that sadly, people love to see other people shot down.. it makes them feel superior. ACK!

I understand the curiousity of knowing where your song finished. But this format just isn't conduscive to a helpful learning experience. If you get 0 votes.. how does knowing that help? How about 10 votes. How about 20? How about 3? What does it actually mean? All it really means is that your lyric didn't rise to the very top of the group of great lyrics, but it could still be a great lyric. There's no quantifiable way to know more than that.

For example. Lets say 10 songs were entered and 3 were nominated. Lets say your song finished 8th. Would knowing you finished 8th tell you anything? No. Because you don't really know how good the competition was. If 9 of the 10 songs were grammy winning multi platinum zillion selling songs, you might feel good about beating 2 of them. If only 4 of the songs were any good and 6 were terrible.. it would be a different story. Even with having access to the lyrics, unless we ranked them, you wouldn't know what beat you, or why. Maybe it was the topic. Maybe it was the length. Maybe it was how you typed it on the page. Maybe it was that you were from TEXAS. Who knows. In the end, all we know is that a certain number of lyrics will appeal to a mass of people. And those will get nominated. Those that don't can ask why, improve them, ignore the results, or simply celebrate that some great lyrics got exposure when otherwise they would not have and hope that next time around, it will be you. And so you'll cheer those nominees on just like you hope they'll cheer you on the next time.

Time for me to drive to Arlington, VA for the show. I'll check in late tonight or tommorow morning before the DC show.

Brian

Hi guy's

How's every one doing? I just sent in my votes for the lyric's awards. It was not easy either. I have been following this contest since it started. Reading over all the entries. You know I thought I had a
pretty good lyric, but after reading the other's I don't know if I stand a chance or not. Good luck to every one out there I think what brian and the other's are doing for folks like me is great. I visit the web site often this is the first time I have
ever taken part. unless you count posting my lyric. Thank you very much for the chance to do so. I hope jpfolks is around for a long time. Thank you again
Lee Davis from siler city
(daddy lee)

My take on knowing where our lyric stood: Because this is more of an emotional response, how we feel about the lyric,personal taste, and a response to our own experience as well as what might be universal and well written, indicates that knowing our final place in the end is not as important as seeing the final choices of our peers and judges - we can do our own comparisons and learning from that. The entries that survive the judging panel and their reasons for selection will be indicative of how audiences may react
to the various themes and a learning experience by example for all. After the contest, we could post our lyric for critique if we want constructive feedback.
I am down to 11 top choices and 11 contenders from a very lengthy list. But, suprisingly enough, my top 7 are still at the top of the list. Whether these will equate to anyone elses' top 7 remains to be seen.
But, there is a saying that the surest way to loss of self esteem is through comparison; and, I would not like to think that a great opportunity to participate and learn resulted in stopping someone from continuing to take a risk and post their work because we posted everyone's standing and the scores were destructive. Jeannette

Really good point Jeanette; agree wholeheartedly with you and Harriet.

Folks,

Brian hasn't said much about this but I did want to make a point.

Brian and I were discussing the possibility of a lyric contest in some depth several months ago. Most nights before I went to bed there would be a two or three page email from Brian noting the obstacles to be overcome, the purpose and objectives of such a contest, the possible benefits to be gained, the organizational responsibilities and manpower requirements. I would retire with my mind filled with new thoughts and ideas.

I'd awaken in the morning, stumble to the computer and find two or three more pages from Brian, answering questions, posing others, issuing challenges, etc. All written clearly, succinctly and in a manner that was easy to follow.

He was planning this then, and is pulling it off now while maintaining a hectic travel schedule as well as coordinating and managing the best darn songwriter site on the web...and he is pulling it off on a much broader scale than anything we discussed.

I promise you, no decision he has announced was made without careful deliberation or in a capricious manner. Brian always gives a straightforward answer to a question...it just may not always be the answer that we, as individuals, want to hear.

I am tickled to death to see this contest become a reality and to see so many new names entered. A special thanks to Pete and Blake for their work on this.

dawg

Thanks Blake; Eloquent as always, Dawg. Jeannette

Mike,
(2.) You're talking "song"; we're talking "lyric". There's also a mp3 feedback forum if you want to get an opinion as to song execution...
Personally, I feel no need to justify [in specifics] why I choose one lyric over another, and wouldn't respond if pressed. If such "ranking" in the also-rans were to be available, I'd request that my votes not be divulged to such a list; anonymous or no. For me, that's not constructive. Minutely examining the actual 5 nominees should be all that's needed [by way of example of a "good" lyric].

Now, as to not voting for your own lyric? There's really very little "objectivity" in regard to a lyric. Either it makes you feel something, or it doesn't. If you honestly feel yours is as emotive (to YOU, of course) as your other 4 picks, why discount it?

Just one opinion.....

I am still narrowing down my votes to the top 5, but I just want to say thanks for your hard work in presenting this Brian! You must have a big "S" on your t-shirt because you are amazing! I can't believe you have any time at all to sleep.

[This message has been edited by braveboy09 (edited 09-06-2002).]

[This message has been edited by braveboy09 (edited 09-06-2002).]

Actually.. I have a big red hat on my chest! = )

Brian

PS: We've only gotten about 25 votes so far. Just an update.

Hey Folks,
Been going thru the songs (boy, it really takes time, but it is extremely gripping!), and i just thought i'd mention at random some of my observations. Before that, i have to say that i am quite surprised, there are so many good songs here, that i am now reluctantly leaving out some really good lyrics in order to narrow down my list of choices. That's really something, and if i had the time i would have congratulated every one of these people personally. I think that the final five will be no definitive indication of songs that clearly stood out above the rest, because most of them are just good as the other. OKay, that's done, now on to the other comments...

It's a queer thing, but it seems that Everybody Loves February. More than a couple of songs have been written in tribute to this month. Well, i don't seem to remember much about MY Februarys apart from the fact that it is usually the month given us off to prepare for our final exams in March. Not criticising anyone at all, just saying that i'm blowed if *I* ever write a tribute to February! <G>

I was also tickled to read a song where the writer calls God a 'she'. Not trying to make an issue of this, but i'm tickled all the same, like Obelix (of Asterix comics) i can only tap my head and say "these foreigners are crazy"! <G>. Have you read the Calvin & Hobbes strip where Calvin decides to call himself a "chromosomally advantaged youth" because the word "boy" is "sexist and demeaning"?

Here something to chew over. After going through half of the songs submitted, i can't count the number of times i've thanked God I was born here in India - where the stories of love forsaken, love rejected, families breaking up, thoughts of how hopeless life is, once-upon-a-time-lovers leaving for other loves...such stories are so much more rare.
In all, i think that of the songs submitted, there are more songs written on a depressing note than there are songs of the happier type. Even the songs that try to look beyond the depression seem to be struggling to find that silver lining, vainly claiming to clutch on to a hope that they themselves don't really believe to be in existence. I know, from experience, that dark thoughts make for good poetry, but i have decided that these are not lines i would pick up again. Cheer up, people!! If life can be there the way it is here, why don't you quit complaining and get with the groove?

Next. Most of the lovesongs and songs about 9/11 (as Brian pointed out) and all that were so unimpressive because we've heard those cliches a million times before. Who said you can't write about love without being different? There was one outstanding "different" song that tremendously impressed me, i would have loved to name it except the contest rules don't permit that.

Just a word to the Christian songwriters here. I am a Christian songwriter too (self-proclaimed), but some of the songs here, instead of making me thrilled at finding a kindred spirit, they made me quite ill. When you want to reach an audience, don't give them a message that whacks them on the head, give them something that moves them. If i was one of those "on the outside", i wouldn't want to hear the chant "Jesus is great", i'd want to know what in the world makes you think so. And if you've convinced me, you've moved me.

That's more than enuf for a single post, i guess i'll continue later. But a parting line, taken from jasonfromscumgrief's signature : "Never mistake lack of talent for genius"....

C ya!
Pramod

Hiya, Pramod,
I enjoyed your honesty here!
I chewed over all your points, and this is the one that mystifies me just a bit (perspective-wise). Lyrics about painful realities may [sometimes] elicit empathy or compassion, and (hopefully) make us more in touch with what folks other than ourselves have to deal with (or "have had" to deal with). I just don't find a [GOOD] lyric in that kind of vein to be depressing [per se].
Yes, there is a vast difference between self-absorbed wallowing in misery versus a thoughtful treatment of an "unpleasant" subject matter. I think it's one of the small things we Americans do to put our public in mind of societal ills and dangerously detached attitudes. (Throw the US version of the "enlightened self-interest" oxymoron in there and you get the picture. )

Hey, it's cathartic too! That's why we like singin' them blues!

This is not to say that I don't have some "happy-happy, joy-joy" tunes on my short list (as well as a couple downright silly ones). A good lyric does the deed of moving me, even if it's to giggle.

See there, Pramod? You made me think a bit! (Ouch! That hurt... I'll try and avoid it in future! )

Like Pramod and Ozone said! I think you both made very good points.

There are a lot of serious and sad subjects in these lyrics. I'm speculating that a lot of people thought that they needed a song that sounded important in order to compete. But I thought quite a few funny ones were very well done. Well, it's either "well written or badly written" like Oscar said.

Well, Pete and Sweet beat me to it. (That 'literates pretty good <g> )
They probably put it better, (and more gently) than I would have. I don't know that we should be excessively interested in any one persons opinion of what subjects we should write about since we all have our own life stories and bring our own perspective to songwriting. Yep, it's either well written or it's not

Hey guys,
I am so sorry, i don't know if i expressed myself properly when i wrote that last note. I was not giving my "opinion on what people should or shouldn't write". In fact, that paragraph focussed not on the songwriting but on life and its reflection in our songwriting, if you get the difference.
You write about your life, i write about mine. Both are honest - the level of honesty is what is responsible for the quality of the song - but *now* i cannot write songs about depression and hopelessness because i simply can't empathise with them myself. "Perspective" is grand , but it can leave you blind - how's that for a paradox? Something more to chew on....
In my note i mentioned that i thanked God that i was born in India, for the simple reason that the problems you face, we don't (or to a much lesser degree, at least), and that makes for happier songs, doesn't it? I don't mean "happy-happy,joy-joy" songs, i just mean that we can empathise with songs that believe (not in desperation, but honestly) in the silver lining.
Ozone Pete spoke of "thoughtful treatment of an unpleasant subject matter" - ah, there's the proverbial rub. I might have been wrong, but though i did identify some "perspective-building" songs, many of the others did strike me as being "self-absorbed wallowing in misery". Not that it detracts from the quality of the song - in fact, these songs are often loads better (i'm voting for them, take note of that!), but , as i said twice already, they just make me thankful I was born away from the kind of life these songs portray.
Sorry if what i said was of any provocation to anybody, it was not meant to be. I was just so tired of hearing about how hopeless life is, that i decided to tell you all to cheer up. Why, i myself cheered up considerably just by writing that note! And this one too, though now i'm scared of whom i'm going to offend next.

A living oxymoron, (moron is right, hey? <G> )
Pramod

Frustrated! That's me at the moment.....I had a rather short list of over 50 songs that I was trying to go through, and it got thrown in the trash by mistake! Now I have to go back and do it all again
So far, the thing I've noticed most often about these "lyrics" is that a lot of them aren't "lyrics".....they're poetry, and there is a big difference. To me, a lyric needs to be conversational, so the average person can understand what is being said....a poem, on the other hand, can use poetic, obscure, unsingable, undefinable (without a dictionary) words and phrases that don't have to rhyme, and it can take a week to sort out the meaning.
The other thing I noticed, being a fanatic about spelling, is that there are a lot of misspelled words and typos. In my opinion, if a person doesn't care enough about their lyric to spell the words correctly, or fix the errors, then it isn't a good lyric. If someone sent a song in this condition to a publisher, the publisher would store it in "file 13", without even bothering to read it.
Now, back to the task at hand......hope I get my vote in on time, lol.

Thank you, Brian for the opportunity, and thanks to Ozone Pete and Blakeh and everyone else involved in this great project.

Bluelitenin

Pramod,

I really enjoyed your comments. I think it is really valuable to have a non-US-UK-Aussie-Canadian (I think we have very similar frames of references) giving us some quality discussion.

I also find myself always assuming (quite incorrectly in some cases) that we, as Americans, have the very best of everything.. lifestyle, quality of life, family life etc... It is great, and eye opening, to hear someone relate an opposing thought on that issue. Our politicians often lead us to believe they've handed us the best quality of life. But it's based on a definition (correct or not) that is different from what quality of life might mean elsewhere.

Thanks again for your well written viewpoints.

Brian

I'll have my votes in soon, once I've gone through my "long short list" and culled it a bit more. It's not an easy job because the quality of entries is so good.

I'd just like to take a minute to agree with Blue in that I found a lot of the lyrics were poems and not lyrics, well written, but not what I'd consider a lyric and some were so long I completely lost interest and stopped reading before the end and probably missed some good things. My votes will go to lyrics which I would expect to hear on the radio and be able to sing along with, mainly because that's where I'll hear songs that I'll want to go out and buy.

During the time that we were posting our entries, I was enthralled to hear Hal David (the lyrical side of the Hal David/Burt Bacharach team) interviewed on the radio one morning as I was driving to work. He was in Sydney for a one only performance by Australian artists of 23 of his biggest hits. He was asked the inevitable question of what he thought were the most important ingredients of a good lyric. His answer was:

1. Simplicity
2. Believability
3. Emotional Impact
4. A chorus that supports the verses

He told the story of when he wrote "What the World Needs Now", it took him nearly a year to get the chorus and it came to him out of the blue while driving one day.

Sorry to go off track a little here but these simple rules will guide my final choices for voting.

And just for the record Brian, I'm not in favour of publishing any kind of performance record of how each lyric rated but I have enjoyed the discussion on this thread (especially from our Indian friend), and the chance to offer my thoughts on how I arrived at my top five. Thanks. Judy

I've noticed alot of that too Blue and Judy. There are definite elements that define a lyric, and many of the posts just aren't lyrics. So while we need to vote for what moves us, we also need to make sure it's a lyric since this IS a lyric contest.

I've only made it through the first 100. Hopefully i'll get some more chipped off tonight and have my vote in this coming weekend.

This IS fun though!

Well, I'm getting ready to cast my final vote. One of the things I found hard about this is that because (and only because) I am forced to chose, I have to leave out some stuff I liked as lyrics. After 3 rounds I had my list down to 12 lyrics. So, to everyone in that 12, although your not going to know who you are, I salute you. Sorry I had to pick 5. And I agree with other posters, we need to pick what moves us, but included in my 12 were only entries that would make passable song lyrics (singable, some sort of form - even when thinking out of the box, etc.).

I had to throw out one of my 12 that was totally cool, it made a good lyric (although too long), and I could see it in my mind as a great song. I was singin' along. It moved me. But after carefully inspecting the chorus, it just didn't make any sense whatsoever with the verses, or any sense with the title/topic of the lyric.

Another one (although this killed me) I didn't pick for the final 5 because, while it said something interesting, the person didn't give the lyric a title.

I think I also found that some of the more original entries topic/point of view wise were not good lyrics, while some of the best written lyrics were of topics/points of view done several times before (especially in the country realm...). Which is OK, I had at least 4 of those in my final 12. Just because I liked them.

Anyway, this was fun (and a chore!) to do...

Oh ya, Pramod, I too enjoyed your comments. I agree with what Brian said. We over here always think we have the best of everything, and it's good to hear someone say - hey - not as far as I'm concerned. Diverse opinions are cool....

[This message has been edited by Liszt Laughing (edited 09-08-2002).]

Without any disrespect intended I have a question for Pramod, regarding happy, happy India. You can read and write (in English as well) which leads me to believe you were not forced into child labor, you have access to a computer and that leads me to believe you are fairly comfortable and at least get 3 square meals a day. I am guessing that most of your relatives didn't have to be picked up off the streets in India by Mother Teresa. I won't even go into the other problems of India, but don't you think your social placement and wealth status has a little bit to do with your "perspective?"

JeanB

*** And thank YOU, Judy and Pramod!

[This message has been edited by Ozone Pete (edited 09-09-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Ozone Pete (edited 09-09-2002).]

Yep, the criteria given By Judy and others is pretty much what I used. (I'm down to 7 finalists, well I may go back one more time.) I lost a lyric called "Hard Times" that I had marked on page 5 .Don't know where it went.
It might be worth noting that "lyrics" can refer to the words of a song "or" the words of a poem, tho' the reference to a song is usually given first. With the contest kind of springing from the lyric board, I expect it was generally assumed that it referred to songs but with a whole bunch of people entering that were not from the board, I don't know if that was a problem or not. I hope not
Well Jean, the same thoughts entered my mind but I thought I'd try to stay out of trouble for once. <g>

Interesting input from everyone. I'll just say on this that at this point, my favorite probably wouldn't fit many of Judy's criteria at all. I am using the simple guideline: Does it move you? to pick my 5 and the one for me that sticks out WAY above the others (I am about 50% through the lyrics) is totally unconventional, has a few flaws but also has the deepest and most interesting storyline of any lyric I have seen in a very long time. It borders very much on poetry, but could be sung in a variety of styles from Folk to Rap with equal success. In otherwords, it breaks convention, status quo and says something that fills my head with images and additional creative thoughts surrounding the subject matter, setting and mood of the piece. It's quite haunting.

I hope folks will continue to do what all of the above have in common.. vote for what they LOVE.. not what they think they are supposed to vote for using any criteria other than what moves them. Remember, there is no justification asked for or needed for your votes. This is your private chance to reward what you think is cool. It's your chance to right all the wrongs you think commercial music industry may have (or may not have as your opinion may be) held back in the past.

We've had roughly 30 votes sent in so far. And a couple of lyrics have started to collect multiple votes.

Brian

Jean,

Though I respect your feelings, this isn't the place for a political discussion off topic. The US currently has a clergy system that molests children and a church that protects and tolerates their molestors. And that is just one thing someone could bring up. Let's leave the political discussions for a different post or topic in a different time. There isn't a place on the planet that humans dwell where evil isn't done to to others.

Brian

Judy and Brian, thanks for your perspective on judging these lyrics. I'm in both your camps. On one hand, I'm inclined to reward those lyrics that are exceptional (IMHO) and which fall within the framework of a conventional lyric. Besides the other good reasons that were mentioned, creativity can really come to the fore when one is forced to work within limits. At the same time, I want to pay attention to the unconventional lyric, because if it still moves me in some way, then it is also a good lyric. We are, after all, only "hearing" half the song.

I also agree that these postings should reflect a higher level of polish than say the lyric forums. Bad spelling and editing will costs some of my favorites points off! Thanks for reading.

Sorry, Brian. (Not that sorry though because I wasn't the only one who went off topic.) You kind of made my point though. What I was trying to say (although somewhat obliquely), was that every place has problems. All people have problems. The songs we create often reflect those problems. Songs are often vehicles of change or a call for change. Songs are opportunities to see through the eyes of others.

JeanB

Hi
I am half way through reading the lyrics and must agree on what Judy says.
To me personally a lyric must be able to provoke a strong emotional jolt with simplicity, and the words should be strong, be able to communicate without being too verbose.
Also, I find many "lyrics" in here which do not have any type of structure. This is a lyric contest and not a poetry contest...
How can most of these lyrics be put to music?
I am half way through reading and I picked out 16 lyrics of which only 3 hit me in the guts....meaning they moved me deeply.
Yes Judy to me lyrics should have:

1. Simplicity
2. Believability
3. Emotional Impact
4. A chorus that supports the verses
but I should also add:
5. A moving story line which evolves throughout the song.

Since I believe I read somewhere that the deadline for sending in votes is October 31st, I am taking my time.

Ingrid

Hi, Ingrid-

Double check Brian's Voting Guide under this topic because I believe the voting deadline is the end of September, not October.

And only thirty days hast September...

Ouch thanks re deadline....I will double check again!
I got to rush then...I was taking it easy!
Thanks again
Ingird

Brian,
Despite my trying to quantify why my choices are what they are........I really am going to vote for those I think are cool.
Why I think they're cool is kinda unimportant!
...and there ya be!

Taste as a result of nature or nurture? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I didn't find it too difficult to whittle down to a final 8, but now I'm stuck. I think I have a tie between all 8. I only wish there was a place for "honorable mentions". When I pick the 5, I will be excluding 3 very praiseworthy song lyrics. I think that's too bad. But, I understand about the rules. Thanks to everyone who participates in the voting. It is a big chore and deserves a pat on the back for reading all of the lyrics. I found 3 of my final 8 in the last 37 entries.
sonny

To Pramrod and Brian!
I apologize for my tone and for going off topic. Also for the poor choice of words I used that seemed to slam India and Pramrod. I apologize for that too. I hope you will forgive me. Thank you.

JeanB

[This message has been edited by JeanB (edited 09-09-2002).]

1. Well, first of all, I finally made my 5 final choices out of 7 best and 7 contenders. I guess I agree with most of what has been said as far as criteria.
2. I ALSO LOST ONE called Hard Times, which initially struck me - but could not find it to review again -where did it go?
3. This response is for Pramrod: I totally agree that a level of honesty is the key to good lyrics.
And, having worked in India and Africa and Canada (with it's many cultures), I know that it will be a matter of point of reference and perception as to how honesty, emotion and empathy are viewed.
In some cultures, there is a tendancy to promote a positive view to encourage people to rise to the challenge, and sometimes to promote fairy tale endings. In other cultures it is important to hide the truth, in some it is important to rally people to an important cause, and still others the tendency to spill it's guts for the world to see.
How we view and deal with humor, sorrow,death, justice, abuse, relationships, social issues is different in all cultures.
The important thing is, we all have a plan or a process for dealing with those issues.
From my own experience, I can say that I have not been able to write about the death of my son - 20 years later - and until I can write the sorrow out of that experience, I will never be able to write about it objectively. But, some people truly believe that they have dealt with the issues and can now write about it objectively and universally. Not, that they are trying for sympathy or catharsis. Your point is well taken in that perhaps they have not yet reached that point, BUT they have made a start. In each of us there is at least one good song. When the stars line up we will write it. I sincerely hope that you will write yours, as I hope, someday, to write mine. Namaste, Jeannette

I read all the lyrics.
I am down to 7. I cannot toss out two...it's a shame to have to make a choice!

Ingrid

[This message has been edited by ibfl (edited 09-10-2002).]

It did take time, and it wasn't easy but it was fun and definitely required a lot of thinking about what makes a good lyric. Starting early and reading them all each time there was a complete page posted helped. After submissions were closed, it was fairly easy for me to make the first pass of rereading to mark the top 10%. Then to go trhough that again and cut the number in half, and then again down to 12.

Staring at the top 12 for a few days on and off, I found the top three easier to identify - a lot harder to knock out the rest to select the last two. Not because the two I selected aren't the most deserving but because everyone of my top twelve seemed like a great lyric.

Anyway - looking forwarded to showcases in the next two weeks and results afterward.

Hey All,
Just to make a small correction - the name's Pramod not Pramrod...:-) Just by the way, (and this is way off topic), the word "Pramod" in Sanskrit means "entertainment". I ain't nowhere close yet!
C ya!
Pramod

Sorry, i forgot to say this:
Namaste, Jeanette! :-) And thanks for those comments, they really made sense!
C ya,
Pramod