JPF Home Page Forums Musician Gear and Techniques Microphone and Vocalist Forum Condenser vs. Dynamic Mics?

Hi,
Can anyone explain in simple plain English what the difference is between a diaphragm, condenser, cardiod, or a super- hyper-cardiod microphone?

I'm not an electrician--and until this year my understanding of a microphone went about like this: "you talk into it, and the loud sound comes out the other end."

I can definitely hear a clarity difference in recordings and in experimenting with different mics. But some layman's terms here would really help me know what I'm hearing.

Thanks!

Linda


------------------
Linda Adams
Read about my novels:
http://www.alyssastory.com
Bits & pieces of music:
www.soundclick.com/lindaadams

Hi Linda,

I think you mean the difference between dynamic and condenser. Condenser microphones and dynamic microphones both have diaphragms. The diaphragm is the thing that vibrates with the sound.

To put it very simply (and without other details), a dynamic microphone does not use added electric power, a condenser microphone uses electricity, either from a battery or from another power source, to increase and enhance the sound.

Cardiod, super cardiod, and hyper-cardiod refer to the pattern of the microphone. Some microphones will pick up sound coming from in front of them and reject sound coming from behind them. The pattern of this "hot area" is often heart-shaped (hence the term "cardiod"), though I think of it as "pumpkin" shaped. Here's a website that gives an animation of the different popular patterns available:

http://www.indiana.edu/~emusic/etext/studio/studio_images/micpatterns5.swf

Well, I hope this helps.

Mike

Thank you, Mike!
Yes, I meant dynamic. Duh.
(well they both start with d... )
This makes much sense.
You're a saint.

Linda


------------------
Linda Adams
Read about my novels:
http://www.alyssastory.com
Bits & pieces of music:
www.soundclick.com/lindaadams

I used dynamic mikes for home recording for years..

Just recently switched to a large diaphragm medium cost condenser..the difference is startling..should have done it years ago..

and..yes..Mikle is a saint...he was a 'monument' for a long time but gave it up..

Have you ever seen what pigeons do to monuments?

Bob

hehe, yep Bob, I've seen it. not pretty!

Thanks for the info!
How does a larger diaphragm affect the sound? Do you know?

Linda


------------------
Linda Adams
Read about my novels:
http://www.alyssastory.com
Bits & pieces of music:
www.soundclick.com/lindaadams

Linda,

Very basically....
The condenser mic is going to be more sensitive. The patterns are generally the same and you'll find the same type of differences between them and dynamics, such as proximity effects, frequency boosts & etc.

------------------
Miltenberger Homes

"That ol' dog's so mean, he ain't done nothin' but eat nails and [naughty word removed] nickels ever since he was born"

Thank you Dak!

Can't tell y'all how much I wish I could edit that subject line to "dynamic." LOL


Linda

EDIT 1-26-07: Hahahahaha!!!! The new software means I can finally change my subject heading! whoo-HOO! Yeah!

How the larger diaphragm affects the transducing of the sound depends on the source of the sound.

If the sound is coming from a small source, like a finger cymbal, it's emanating with rather tight directional waves, if it is coming from a larger source, like the top of an upright bass, it sends out larger, flatter waves. Think of a finger cymbal dropping into a still pool of water, then think of an upright bass doing the same. The basses waves will criss cross and create complex patterns, where the cymbal will move out in tight concentric circles.

Now, as those waves reach the diaphragm, the tighter waves will actually reach different parts of the surface of a large diaphragm at different times. Think of the waves from the pond reaching a shoreline as the large diaphragm, or a small post in the water as the small diaphragm.

The diaphragm, whether large or small, still vibrates pretty much all at once, so the more complex patterns will lose some nuance on the larger surface...the "edginess" distorts a little...it sounds warmer. The smaller surface may only pick up certain aspects of the complex pattern, it can get "ring-ey" or "tight" sounding.

Generally, larger diaphragms are better on voices...more complex vibrations. Smaller diaphragms are better on tight vibrations...snares, cymbals, and so on. But, there are always exceptions, and don't forget...we're still dealing with "taste" and there's no accounting for taste.

Also there's the bounce effect within the mic itself. Dual capsule mics have a short bounce from the diapghragm of the rear capsule that tames down the proximity effect a little and makes close micing sound a little more "transparent" while maintaining warmth without "boominess."

Here's a trick, if you want to mic a voice close and it's getting a little boomy, turn the mic so the diaphragm is pointing more to the singer's ear than directly toward their lips. Keep the windscreen on so they don't see it or they'll always try to move around to sing "direct on" to it.

You could study this stuff for years and still never catch a fish in that pond.

All the Best,
Mike

------------------
You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 12-12-2006).]

That's an interesting description, Mike. I hadn't heard the part about complex waves vs simpler waves. It kind of makes sense when you figure that Lab Measurement mics are almost always small diaphram. Some of the best (most accurate) mics have very small (1/4" or so) diaphrams.

Just to add to what Mike said, larger diaphram mics also tend to have a bigger difference in the tone of the sound that reaches the mic from the sides and back than smaller diaphram mics. It's called "off-axis" coloration, or the change in the tone resulting from pointing the mic slightly away from the source.

Smaller diaphram mics tend to sound better if the source is wide and receiving sound from "off-axis" such as a choir or big band. They will provide less sound coloration.

You might conclude from all of this that smaller diaphram mics would always be preferred, but technical accuracy is not always the most musical sound, or the sound you want captured.

For instance, just because of that effect (off-axis coloration), large diaphram mics often sound more focused. That doesn't necessarily mean more accurate, just different. They have a certain "in-your-face" or larger-than-life type of sound that just isn't there with most smaller diaphram mics.

Larger diaphram mics also are much harder to get to a flat frequency response. Almost all large diaphram mics have a peak in the frequency response somewhere in the range of 8-10khz. This is another reason why small diaphram mics are generally more accurate. They also have a peak in their response, but because of the physics involved, it's usually in the range that only dogs can hear. Therefore, they have a flatter frequency response in the critical range of 20-20Khz.

Large diaphram mics are generally used for lead vocal tracks because they have those two characteristics: 1. that "in-your-face" sound, and 2. a peak in the high frequencies that gives "air" or a sense of presence to vocalists that is often flattering on a recording.

Hi everybody!

So--if I just bought a Shure Beta 58 "Dynamic Supercardiod" mic today, that's a good thing for recording my vocals, right?

Sounded great in the middle of Guitar Center--
It was a sweet deal-- but now I'm wondering if I needed the condenser model instead??

Linda

The Beta 58 is a good mic for recording your vocals, if you are happy with the results.



If you are happy with the mic you have, then you didn't "need" the condenser model.

I am curious though, how did you audition the mic while you were at GC?

Nice Mic. Good Job.
One slight correction Linda. The Beta 58 is a cardiod pattern, not a super-cardiod.
If is does well on your voice, great. I happen to like it better than the SM58.
You will be able to use it for other than vocals as well, just keep in mind that different mics do better in different situations than other mics in the same situation. You have to choose which one works best for you in any given situation.
See, now you've given in to the dark side and you will acquire more mics as time goes on, you get more experience and you find more needs. It's a given.
Here's a great animation that will show the differences in polar patterns.

Dak,

The SM 58 is a cardioid. The Beta 58(A) is a supercardioid.

Several years ago I suscribed to STREOPHILE MAGAZINE. Included in the suscription was a Test CD. The CD has a test of 15 different microphones of which you can listen to. The Title of the test is WHY HI FI EXPERTS DISAGREE. As you listen you can hear the differences in each Mic as the text is read by Gordon Holt, a writer at the time. The differences are audable. To be able to select the perfect Mic would require a lot of testing to be sure. The best Mic for someone may not be the most expensive or the one with the best test results. A Mic can pick up each flaw in a voice that a lessor Mic would help Mask.

If I were going to purchase a Mic I would start with a good, but not overly expensive Mic and go from there.

Dynamic Mic's are generally for live performances and Condensor Mic's are generally for Studio use.

There appears to be mics designed for various applications such as vocal, instrument, drums, etc, etc, etc, of which may not work any better than another mike in a manufacture's line.

You're exactly right, my bad. I grabbed the wrong spec sheet.
The eyes are going bad, I guess.....:(

Hi everyone, thanks so much for your comments. They all make sense.

I went and got the Shure Beta 87A last night--condenser--so I could try out the difference. I'm sold. There was no contest in the recording quality.

So... since I can't return the brand-new Beta 58A, is anyone here in the market? I paid $140, barely used a couple of hours. I could still use it for going out live--but my guess is the 87 will be OK live.

Linda

The manager-guy there let me sing into the PA system for a minute. Though he said he really wasn't "supposed to..." So I don't want to get him in any trouble.
Wishing I'd remembered dynamic vs. condenser for recording the first time I was there, though!

Linda

Linda, IMO a dynamic will generally be better for live stage work in most instances so if it's not a burden I would keep it for that purpose. It can also be used in conjunction with the condenser for recording so it's not like you've made a bad move in buying the beta 58. Because dynamics are normally less sensitive they don't have as much of a problem with feedback and other un-wanted noise and sound than a condenser in live on-stage work, particularly in a noisy environment.

Thanks Dak--that's good to know!
Linda