JPF Home Page Forums Lyric and MP3 Feedback Lyric Feedback Forum 2 You're So Cold

Howdy ya'all. I am finally back from an incredible experience at the songwriters seminar out in CO. Will write up a full report, but wanted to share a song with you that came out of an assignment there. We were assigned to work with two people we did not know and had never written with..and given 2 hours to come up with an entire song...lyrics and music. The two guys I ended up with were an interesting mix. One was a 20 year old guy who played guitar and did not write lyrics. The other was a guy my age who also played guitar but who had been in bands all his life. We started with a lyric of mine and this was the result. Because we were trying to accommodate the younger fellow's interests, we tried to go with something a bit edgy. This song ended up being a real intriguing blend of major and minor chords. I actually got up the courage to sing it in front of the pro songwriters. Yikes! They liked it, however, so I didn't feel too bad afterwards. Ed is going to be sending me a copy of it with the music so I may get to post it later. I still would like to make a couple of changes in it though.

You're So Cold
(c) 2002 Lyrics by Bobbie Gallup, Matt Murphy & Ed Skibbe ASCAP

Are you keeping something from me
Afraid to tell the truth
If you don't feel the fire
I don’t want your excuse

If you’re just going through the motions
That's worse than walking out
All I get is icy indifference
And I'd rather live without

CHORUS
You're so cold
It burns me
And turns me into someone I don’t know
I don't feel ashamed
I won't take the blame
Cause you froze
Quit tryin'
And now my fire is dyin' you're so cold

What happened to the passion?
Can the fire return?
Guess we forgot to feed it
And ashes will not burn

Now we're worse than strangers
We can't even co-exist
Something's gotta change here
Cause fire and ice don't mix

BRIDGE:
Don't know what to think or feel
But I can tell you this:

CHORUS
You're so cold
It burns me
And turns me into someone I don’t know
I don't feel ashamed
I won't take the blame
Cause you froze
Quit tryin'
And now my fire is dyin' you're so cold

You're so cold

Wells....maybe i'll be the first to comment... ..hi B.G. this looks Tight,
Crisp Writing , to the point...only thing
i would have loved to see but..don't think it
detracts.... is a smoother lead into the first chorus...and in doing so..would mess
up your..hook...

Glad you had a "great" time...hope to hear about it......

Kaley

Bobbie, I'm only commenting on this because of the whole "seminar" thing. which it sounds like you enjoyed and I'm sure everyone else will be thrilled with. but this lyric just...isn't much. to me, I've never seen any reason to mess with those workshops. just buy some good records. but if y'all feel material like this warrants joining and up and spending $$$ on it, more power to you. maybe the tune is good.

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Hey Bobbie!

Glad you had a good time - can't wait to see your FULL report.

This is pretty good for a quick write, but there's a little polishing you could do here and there. Kaley pointed out the lead in to the chorus:

All I get is icy indifference
And I'd rather live without

All I get is icy indifference
Which I can live without

But I really want to see something about cold/ice/snow/freeze/etc in the last line leading into the chorus.

The chorus seems a little clunky to me as written, but since it was written with music to go, it probably works fine.

The 'bridge' sounds more like the last two lines of a verse leading into a chorus. Without the music, I can't be sure. I won't get into the bridge thing though - you know what I'm talkin' bout...

Solid otherwise and a bit of a departure for you I think. Ahhhh....doesn't it feel good to stretch?

BTW, that wasn't THE Matt Murphy was it? Matt "guitar" Murphy?

hobes

This is pretty cool; pardon the lame pun. Nothing wrong with branching out your style...it's good for ya. I liked everything except the 'cause you froze' line in the chorus...just a nitpick. I wonder about the genre for this one...it almost has to be a style that's very self aware...not straight ahead country or even folk seems right for this...maybe rockabilly or alternative. Anyway, just some thoughts...at least .01 cent worth. Nice writing.

Corey

Hi, Bobbie! Welcome Back! I like this one. Lots of visualization involved. The story is clear and to the point. I think it's neat that you were assigned strangers for partners, and were able to come up with this as the result! Good job on this! Roy

P.S. Did you get a chance to read the male perspective to a miscarrige before the old board blew up? Roy

What a way to do a comeback Girl.
This is real good.
The go into0 the chorus got me too but feel a 'Cos, or something twix the two will do the trick.
And talking twixes Bobby. Twix The Dawg doing the lean some music and you getting the grunt up to sing in front of your peers. I gotta say I sure is proud to know you two.
Highest regard awards here Guys.
Graham


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http://artists3.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Graham_Henderson/

Hi Kaley,

Thanks so much for dropping by to check this out. Been way too long since I was here and posted/commented. Whew. I was getting rusty. I actually think we sang a bridge word leading into that first chorus...like "cause", but I just didn't get it down on the lyric sheet. We were in such a hurry to finish before the time ran out. We were the first of several groups that had to perform ours, so it was a bit nervewracking to say the least.

Appreciate your kind comments.
Thanks..
Bobbie

Hi Couch,

Thanks for taking time to check this out. I hope I never get to the point where I can no longer learn something from others in the business. This seminar was certainly no exception. The real benefit, however, was making some great connections with folks on the inside of the "industry". I am writing a synopsis of the seminar so I can share what I did glean with other JPF'rs. Appreciate your perspective, nonetheless.

Bobbie

Howdy Hobes,

Thanks so much for checking this out. I sort of agree on that second half of the first verse. Originally, I had it written as:
IF all I get's icy indifference
THEN I'd rather live without. Minor word change, but the guys wanted it this way..so I let it go even though it changes the meaning quite a bit. As far as putting something about cold/ice, etc in that last line..it is already in the line above it (icy indifference), so not sure it is needed in the last line also. It follows the first half of that verse that has the fire part in the 3rd line also.

This was the first time I have ever tried to write music and lyrics at the same time. It was an interesting experience for me, not being an accomplished musician. Some things that seem weird lyrically sound just fine with the music...and I learned how to let go and let the music make things work. You are so right about the stretching part. It did feel good. Was really fun to have input into the music part also. Just wish I was more trained in that area. Guess I will have to get going with my music lessons too. <G>

To be honest, I have no clue if this Matt is the one you were talking about or not. He was a darn good guitar picker, that is all I know...but quite young, probably no more than 21 at most.

Thanks once again for the read and remarks.
Bobbie

Bobbie, my point wasn't that I(or anyone else) have nothing to learn from "people in the business". I showed the opposite when I suggested learning from records, which I do every day. my point was that from what I've seen, little of value is learned at those workshops about songwriting. if you disagree, please point out what the lyric contains that shows your new knowledge, I may have missed it.

I have no doubt there is considerable shmooze value involved in attending. still, there are many new writers out there and i think it's worthwhile to present an alternative viewpoint to all the workshops, seminars etc. that writers are told they must shell out cash for to become decent writers. even if it's an unpopular statement I say...buy some good records, watch classic movies that feature great storytelling and learn from those. it's my guess if you have talent, you'll learn just as well from those as you will at any song mill. if you don't have talent, it won't matter either way but at least you'll have saved a buck.

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Howdy Corey,

You hit precisely the line I don't quite like yet myself...the cause you froze thing bugs me still. If you or anyone else has an idea for that, I would sure appreciate it! This one is not cast in stone yet...just in ice. As for the music, I am gonna say it is somewhere between an edgy rocky sort of country and alternative rock. It would all depend on who sang it I guess. It honestly could go several directions with different arrangements. As for self aware..<G> I have no clue what that means...but it sure sounds good to me. LOL Thanks much.

Bobbie

Hi Roy,

You are right. This was a very interesting and enjoyable assignment for me, especially since I didn't have the musical background that my two partners had. We all had to really give and take..and the result, while not perfect, was better than any of us figured we could come up with in the limited time we had. I must have missed the big miscarriage while I was gone. I wasn't able to access JPF at all while I was away for 10 days. Ya'll will have to fill me in in what I missed. Thanks for checking out this song and sharing your thoughts on it.

Bobbie

Howdy Graham,

Thanks so much for your most kind comments on this. As I said to Kaley, above, I think we did sing a lead in word like "cause" between V1 and the chorus..I probably just missed it on the lyric sheet. As Ed said when we were bashing this out..all those little words get added or deleted in the production anyway, so we were not overly concerned with them at the time. I am well aware, however, that some of them can totally change the meaning of a song. Heck, I sang this in front of 6 pros who have sold more than 30 million songs/cds EACH..LOL and I actually didn't barf! LOL By the time we did this exercise, it was like one big happy family...and it actually felt good..even though it was still scary for me. The two keyboardists (Angela Kaset and Will Robinson) challenged me to tackle my piano demon..and I came home to find a great Casio keyboard waiting for me! I am already picking out Christmas Carols on it (sight reading the notes from the book)...so perhaps there IS hope yet.

Thanks again,
Bobbie

Hi, Bobbie! Welcome back! I'm glad the workshop was a success. This sounds like a rock thing to me. What kind of music did you guys end up with? Couple of nits. I didn't read all the comments, so if I repeat, sorry. I'd say "If all I get is icy indifference/Then I'd rather live without". The chorus doesn't read very smoothly, but since you have music, it probably works. The "quit tryin" line, I wasn't sure if he's saying I won't take the blame because you quit tryin or if he's saying, if you don't feel it, just stop trying and leave. I'm not crazy about "co-exist". Just doesn't sound like something this guy would say. That's all! I'm amazed you could come up with a whole song in 2 hours. Writing in the same room with someone is something I've only done once, and it's a very different experience. Can't wait to read the info on the workshop!

Erica

Graham henderson of Roar Radio fame uses and recomends Casio keyboards.
In the hope they will make him rich enough he can aford a Korg.
Tyhey do a great Job for the money Bobbie. What model you got?
And yep I agree with the words to go thing.
I was singing and sang it so i said it.
Regards.
Graham

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http://artists3.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Graham_Henderson/

Bobbie,

Not a bad collab with two strangers under duress! LOL

I, too, stumbled on the last part of the chorus. Could be just the way it is printed here. If the music's not TOO etched in stone, the following reads a little smoother to me:

You're so cold it burns me
And turns me into someone I don't know.
I don't feel ashamed
I won't take the blame THAT you froze.
You've quit tryin'
And now my fire is dyin'
You're so cold.

It was my thought that FROZE was to be the companion rhyme to KNOW.

As you're wont to say, keep or sweep.

Greg

Howdy Ricki,

Thanks for dropping by. The line you suggested was exactly what I had started with in the lyric..and I let the guys go with what they wanted. I was trying not to sabotage the exercise by obstructing progress, ya know. The chorus actually is very smooth with the music. I'm not sure I understand the question regarding who did the freezing here, but the way it sings, I thoought it was clear that whoever is not singing it is the one who stopped trying. Wouldn't make any sense any other way IMO. You are SO right...that writing under a tight deadline, in the same room with two people you do not know..who are more musicians than lyricists is a very interesting experience. It was very rewarding just to be able to complete a song. There is always time for polishing any rough edges. It was fun..and I also learned a lot from just doing it this way. Thanks so much!

Bobbie

Hi again Couch,

From my years teaching at the university, I am well aware that everyone has different styles of learning. Some learn best by listening, some by actively participating in doing, some by watching others, and every combination thereof. Fortunately for you, you have figured out your own best style of learning..and I commend you for that. However, many other people need different things. I personally love to read as much as I can on a subject, then discuss it with people more knowledgeable than myself. Listening to music and reading liner notes ranks right up there for me also as I continue to study and absorb as much as possible. However, I have found that I learn best and most by accessing a variety of different avenues to music...and simply listening to music on my own is not sufficient to understand the ins and outs of the "business" side of music...which is where I am at the moment. To point to a specific line in a lyric and say "I learned that at this seminar" would be a tad ludicrous. It was simply a new experience for me, and only one of many that I had at this seminar.

Your choice of the word song "mill" is quite indicative of your disregard for learning in such a forum, but that is fine. Since this seminar had 6 pros and only 20 amateur writers for three very intensive days of sharing, I would be hard pressed to agree with your assessment, especially given that you were not there to draw such a conclusion. Those who did participate all indicated that they plan to attend future seminars (which will feature different pro writers). I did not pay to participate since I was one of the organizers and considered "staff" for this event. Some of the amateurs included several individuals who make a living playing music full time. One of them was Quinn Loggins who is the son of Dave Loggins. However, a key point is that no one told anyone they had to shell out money to do anything. This opportunity was made available and people who chose to participate did so. It remains my belief that you get from any experience what you put into it. This was a VERY different format from any other workshop/seminar, etc than I have ever participated in before. I am just glad that this opportunity was made available to me. I love education...and I am not a solitary learner. I prefer this type of situation. Good thing we are not all alike I guess. As the pros said...being successful in the music business these days is only about 20% talent. If you do not have talent, no amount of listening to records and watching movies is going to teach you either. Guess it all depends on what you are willing to invest in your own development and career progress.

Bobbie

Howdy Graham,

Dawg's friend John from Atlanta, came up while I was gone. He is one of those gadget freaks who buys anything electronic whether or not he can use it. LOL He is not into music so he more or less gave us the keyboard. It is a Casio CTK 500. We have yet to figure out what all it can do but it will be much easier to pick out melodies than my little toy keyboard we were using. Thanks again for the encouragement!

Bobbie

Howdy Greg,

Actually, the chorus is two three-line segments with a two line internal bridge...which is a very unusual format but it works musically. The first three lines and the last three lines are the same structure. Froze is not intended to be the rhyme with know. The rhyme is actually between the last word of the third line (know) and the last word of the last line (cold). There is also an internal rhyme between burns/turns as well as tryin/dyin. Those lines flow smoothly the way they are written. The bridging two lines also rhyme..ashamed/blame. That is the best I can do to explain how this works structurally, but it was written to work the way it does. Your ear picks up the intended rhyme without the words having to be at the end of the lines (honest) LOL We as lyricists are so hellbent on making things LOOK a certain way that it sometimes is hard to imagine they can work in any manner than how we want to see them. That was one of the lessons I learned from this experience.

You're so cold
It burns me
And turns me into someone I don’t know (rhymes with cold..last line)

I don't feel ashamed (this is a different musical structure here)
I won't take the blame

Cause you froze (this segment repeats the music from the first three lines)
Quit tryin'
And now my fire is dyin' you're so cold

Hope that helps a bit.

Bobbie

Hi Bobbie,
Fun excercise. Amazing sometimes what you can come up with working face to face.
The leadin from the first verse into the first chorus. ...... I realize my initial thought would require a number of changes back down the line, (but of course I didn't notice that until I looked back at the rest of the lines)
But consider

All I get is icy indifference
As you're FREEZING me out

Yrah, might not have the meter right, but FREEZING OUT seems to be the lead-in I envision.But then you can't keep

That's worse than walking out"

hmmmmm, not much help, huh?

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Harriet

Howdy Harriet,

If you check out the structure of the two halves of that first verse, the first half has the fire in line 3. The second half has the icy indifference in line 3. Not sure we want to add a second reference to that last line. We will certainly consider all suggestions, however. Nothing is ever cast in stone. Thanks for dropping by with your always welcome insights!

Bobbie

Bobbie,

Well...heck, I`ve never been to a seminar for songwriting, and I`ve never actually sat down with any strangers to write...unless me, myself and I would count as three! I`m amazed that you`d come up with a whole song in 2 hours under those conditions. Quite possible it needs a bit of polish...but without hearing what you were using music-wise...I can`t expound further.(expound is a big word for me, by the way) Nice job. I`ll see if I can offer more after a listen. Good to see ya had fun at the seminar, learned a thing or three, and made it back home! Dano.

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www.angelfire.com/music3/danolyrics

Hey there Bobbiemeister,

I actually picked up a melody that worked for me while singing along on this so i'm sure the music is good and will work. No real nits; just one suggestion:

All I get is icy indifference
And I'd rather live without

CAUSE YOUR ICY INDIFFERENCE
I'D RATHER LIVE WITHOUT

Wish i coulda been there!

They work fine Bobbie. I have a CTK-631 which is a little bit up on yours and haven't even tried to figure out all it can do. I just learn as I need something.
When you get to the stage of pluging it into your puter remember line ine from the puter goes to line out on the keyboard and vice versa,
What is Love on my site is just my keyboard and me for the backing . Done in G and that is how it went to the recording studio when Deedee put it on her CD. Bit of eding i studio of course.
Toward the workshop thing.
I quit going to writer's workshops a few years back when I started doing music.
Not because i felt I wasn't learning anything. never been to a workshop I didn't learn something yet.
Rather it was I felt I was better served by learning more about music and we have only had one music workshop in my area ever. Which I went to.
I also forgoit to mention earlier Bobbie.
None of us should feel inhibited or nervious about getting up in front of proffessionals. They know and accept every writer isn't a performer or the owner o9f greet vocal or music skills.
They accept us for what we are Writers.
You want scary. Come to our sunday jam somenight and ge5t up in front of a room full of drunks who think every song comes out of a can and should sound like AC/DC's She's Got The Jack.Now that is scarey.
And a whole mess of fun when you are a cheeky bugger with an answer for most smart arse comments.
I usually have more fun twix songs that doing the songs the few times I get up.
Regards.
Graham


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http://artists3.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Graham_Henderson/

Well, Dano....LOL I have to admit that some of us are stranger than others. It was somewhat intense to know we only had two hours to do a whole song...and we were not sure we could do it until it all sort of fell together at the last. Beign a fast typist..I put it on the computer so we all had a copy of it rather than trying to handwrite lyrics three times. Whew. I do hope to get a copy of the music from Ed soon and then I can get it posted somewhere where folks can listen to it. It was definitely a fun activity...if only to prove that three people could crank out something decent even if they were very different people with different styles. Thanks for dropping in on this one!
Bobbie

Howdy Blake,

Sure glad you could get a head melody working for this. Will sure give some consideration to your idea for that place in V1...although it sort of sounds like yodaspeak to say it that way. Will ponder on it, though. Thanks much!

Bobbie

Howdy Graham,

Well, at least I know that this machine is smarter than I am. LOL Doesn't take a lot, however! Workshops and seminars are not for everyone. I did not go to this one expecting to learn how to write a song. There were other things I wanted out of it..and I got those. I also had a LOT of fun.

Thanks again,
Bobbie

Bobbie, I'm under the impression that those seminars have a stiff fee. if they're free and all donations are voluntary, disregard all I've ever said about them.

but as with anything else, by their fruits you will know them. if anyone's impressed by the quality of writing that people attending those seminars put out, by all means go for it. but no songwriter I respect learned at a seminar. and as for 20% of making it in music is talent, I wholeheartedly agree. maybe less. when you posted the credits of the pros teaching at the seminar(SheDaisy etc), I looked up the songs they wrote. maybe 20% of the songs showed evidence of talent. again, I'm sure the business contacts are good and you had fun, but I'm more concerned with... the songs. however, if the classes are free, nothing is lost.

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Hi Couch,

Again, you misinterpreted my words. I did not say the seminar was free. It did have a stiff fee. I did, however, say that no one forced anyone to attend. Those who chose to go did pay the fee and felt it was worth their time and money. I did not pay the fee because I had helped organize it. The group of six pros did put on a concert Saturday night that raised over 10K which ALL went to the Summit Foundation for the Music in the Schools program. I daresay that no one who participated in the workshops depended solely on this workshop to "teach them how to write a song" since we never even talked about song "basics". The workshop was more aimed at the advanced writer, providing the opportunity to work closely with a few folks who have happened to "make it" past the gates, to get pointers on how to improve what we already do, and perhaps the chance to acquire a mentor or two. In that regard, I can say that no one was disappointed, considering that I developed and distributed the evaluation forms. You may not particularly like all the songs some of these folks have written. That is certainly an individual taste thing. However, millions of other folks do seem to like them, and in the music business, money talks. I do know that I wish I had written such songs as WALKAWAY JOE (Trisha Yearwood), SOMETHING IN RED (Lorrie Morgan), I KNOW HOW HE FEELS (Reba), DO YOU LOVE ME THAT MUCH (Peter Cetera), LONG AS I LIVE (JMM)..and the list goes on. As one of them said to me during the seminar, "the only difference between you and me (referring to myself) is that you just haven't started getting checks yet and we can help change that." There are tons of excellent songwriters who never make it inside those doors. I am the first to admit that as much as I believe in my own stuff, I need all the help I can get to make it past all the barriers that the industry puts up. These folks can help you get past those if they like you as a person and also think you have "the right stuff".

Would it have been worth a lot of money for the opportunity to work for 3 days with these folks? I guess that is up to the individuals who participated. These pros are not the typical ones you see on the seminar circuit, like the John Braheny's and Harriet Schock's of the world. That is not to denigrate their skills whatsover, because I do believe there is also an important role for such teachers, and John Braheny is coming up in June to do a seminar at the facility. However, under normal circumstances, you simply never get access to these six pros we had up there.

We each must choose the path we take to get where we want to go. I, personally, am thrilled I had the chance to take this one. Good luck with your choices also.

Bobbie

Well, Couch is back in full blown re-gale-ia.
Bobby, this is pretty nicely done. Is it perfect? No! Who cares? It's the result of an exercise, and for that, it's pretty good.
But what I really want to say is I am so pleased to know that some people have such a corner on the market of quality of today's music that they can dismiss it with a sweeping percentile. Damn good thing Van Gogh, and Pollock, and Picasso, and all the greater and lesser artists of every medium who did not meet some critic's vision of niche perfection, turned a deaf ear and a blind eye to the din and darkness, and went off and followed their own Muses. The world is a better, more colorful and wonderfully imperfect place for it. I am so tired of dismissive judgements. They dismiss the people who like the dismissed subject(s), and that really reduces the world to a small number of "acceptable" people and "acceptable" art. What a world that would be. What a world.

Sorry, Bobby. You got the right attitude. Learn from everyone, but not just from deep within the business, cuz everyone has something to offer if you listen closely enough. Never stop listening. And rarely dismiss.

Bobbie..

It's just like everything else..no guarantees...

Sometimes you go to one of those things and come out feeling like you've had every door opened...other times you come out saying..my goodness..I'm better than those guys !

But you don't win the lottery without buying a ticket..everybody has their own needs..gosh..let's all just make up our own minds about what works for US !

Jeez...what a concept !

Glad you had a good time Bobbie...wish I coulda been there !
It'll be fun coming down there in June and getting the chance to interact with some of the other writers on this board...I, apparently like some others, find creative involvement with other humans to be a very good thing generally !

The song...well...it's OK...I think you've done better all by yourself..honestly..but it sounds like the process was an education in itself and as such,,AGood thing !

Bob

Hi Bobbie.....

So good to see you back! It seems to me anytime you learn something that you can take with you through the years as you write and grow, it is worth the money and experience. One idea/thought/lesson stretched out over 20, 30, 40 years of songwriting and untold numbers of songs is beyond a $$$ amount. That's just my 2cents.

I like the idea of this....and glad you were the one under pressure, not me (LOL). The second half of verse 1 seems a bit like the second half of verse 2, but maybe that's just me. I still like the idea of fire and ice, though.

And good NETWORKING is worth more than a million in this business!

Good work.

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http://artists2.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Sharon_Longworth/

[This message has been edited by Sunny (edited 04-27-2002).]

Michael, I don't have any idea what you were trying to say in your post.

Bobbie, 2 words, lol...Peter Cetera. nuff said there. if all those folks that went and were pleased with the result, good for them. I do hafta wonder if that 20 year old will be any better in 5 years or will he just be turning out Big Macs. you seem to indicate that it was more helpful on the business end, though, and I can't argue with that. I'll of course, use any info you put in your synopsis to my own evil ends. take care, nice jousting with you. I actually think it's good to see two opposing opinions, but that's just me.

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Hi Michael,

Sure appreciate you stopping in with your insights. As I said in my preface, there are still things I would want to change in this, but as it was the result of a timed exercise, I don't want to change something without the consent of my cowriters at this point. But perfect? Not hardly! It was merely something I have never done before, writing a complete song, music AND lyrics during one rather brief session. We had fun, and all of us felt the end product was at least acceptable to us. One of the nice parts of this workshop was the seeming lack of dismissive judgements on the part of pros and participants alike. The general attitude was one of "how can we make improvements" and even the pro critiques were aimed at helping us fix any problems they heard or observed. It was a lot like the general attitude on this board. Few of us are critical simply for the sake of poking holes in someone else's work, but rather in helping each other improve what we have. I do try to learn from everyone..and at this seminar it was easy to do.
Thanks again,
Bobbie

Hey Bob,

Sure nice to see ya again. I have to agree with you...you never truly know in advance what you are going to gain from participating in something like this. However, I have found that if I go expecting to learn, I am usually not disappointed. I kept wishing more JPF'rs had been able to participate, but this will not be the last one of this type. The owner of Ash Street Publishing also owns this ski lodge, and this is the reason she wanted it, to put together small group songwriting workshops like this. It really was a far cry from sitting in a room with 200-2000 other aspiring songwriters, all hoping for that one magic moment when they catch the ear of someone in the business who might take an interest in them and their songs. This truly was an amazing process and experience...and the fun part is that no amount of negativeism can dissuade me or take away from what was formed at this session...the relationships that will continue.

We are sure looking forward to seeing you in June.

Bobbie

Howdy Sunny,

You are right about spreading the cost out over the lifetime of writing. In this case, there were at least two rather young songwriters, one of whom is a young gal who is just a freshman in college. I will put more in my overall report about her, but being my roommate, we talked a lot about what she wanted and where she hoped to go. I absolutely KNOW the impact this exposure and experience had on Joanna. One of the pros took a personal interest in her development and I suspect she will have a lot of doors opened for her in the future. She came not sure if music was the right choice of career for her because she was not certain if she had "the stuff" to make it in such a competitive field. With her keyboard skills and incredible vocal style, it was clear to everyone there that all she lacked was polish and someone to guide her through the pitfalls. She left with a mentor...and the assurance that she could 'do' music if she puts her commitment into it. For Joanna, this really was a life-changing experience...and one she probably could not have received in any other format. When I think of anyone telling her that this was not worth her money, it just makes me grin.

Networking works for most of us if we let it. I think it would be tough to make it in the business these days without it. Thanks for your thoughts on the song.

Bobbie

Hi Couch,

You are just as welcome to utilize any information I choose to share as anyone else here...for whatever purposes you wish. For me, learning is a win-win situation, and I choose to share what I learn with anyone else who feels they can learn something from me. As far as Peter Cetera, I have no idea what your comment meant although it apparently was intended to be some sort of a slam. In this case, you missed the dunk part because I have been a fan of his since his days with Chicago..and I still enjoy his music, although I do not often hear him because I generally listen to country music these days. I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion, regardless of how divergent.

Bobbie

Hi all. Just delurking to offer a few thoughts. I had been wondering how this thread had gotten to 38 replies, and after seeing couchgrouch's usual contrarian response, I can see how. Now, believe me, I disdain couch's harsh point of view as well as anyone, but I've gotta say, he's absolutely right-- this lyric sounds like a committee job, and it's decent at best.

And more importantly, as a message to lyricists in general-- as a fellow lyricist, if you have the basic talent, you can develop your skills on your own. You don't need workshops filled with equal or lesser talents to "hone" it for you. I've seen your better work on here, Bobbie, and it's clear to me to have the skills needed to succeed on your own, no matter how commercial you want to go. You're good, period. Whether or not you think you need help, you mostly don't.

"Pal Hondo" and "For All The Good It Does" aren't the best lyrics in couch's ouevre, but seriously-- a good look at them will let you learn more than any seminar by so-called professionals will ever teach you.

Period.

Anthony

Anthony...

The last paragraph in your post is laughable...no..... tragic !

Bob Young

To say that we can learn that much from looking at two lyrics by someone as unknown and unproven in the commercial world as we are is at best ludicrous !

My goodness young man...wake up !

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 04-28-2002).]

I ain't sayin' nuthin' Anthony.
Mutter mutter Mutter.
Graham

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http://artists3.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Graham_Henderson/

Thanks for having more gumption than me Bob. And tact. You beat me there because i deleted my first two messages out of deferance to the post having seen posts stuffed by non value, uninformed. opiniated dribble such as that offering.
Regards,
Graham

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http://artists3.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Graham_Henderson/

Hi Bobbie: It sounds like you enjoyed the seminar and had a good experience networking
with some of the pro writers.Its not easy having a two hour deadline....and having to
write with people you've never wrote with before.I think you did well.Looking forward
to hearing more about it.

Take Care...Dave

Hi Bobbie, How do you generate so much controversy?. Must be an accident. <g>
Well I'm just going to critique the lyric and stay out of the rest other than to say you 3 did pretty good. Did one of those once. To me it's more of an experience than any expectation of turning out a chart song.

Agree the last line before the c could lead in better but dont see that it needs and more cold references.
Mainly. I have trouble with the last half of the c. Don't care for the "froze" line especially. Seems the "cold part has been covered plenty. The "quit tryin' line could be misleading as to whether the singer is saying the singee quit trying or if they're "telling" them to quit trying.
"Ashamed" --been no reference to any reason why they "should' feel ashamed. anyway --poss rewrite last part of c just to look at

I didn't cause the pain
I won't take the blame
For lies you told
You quit tryin'
Now my fire os dyin' , you're so cold

Pretty hard to do much changing on real short lines without changing melody. Seems you need another word in next to last line. Looks like you could do without "and" in last line and maybe slip a note from last to next to last line

Pretty good lyric under the circumstances,Doesnt seem like the hook-title's been overdone

A lyric is only half a song and sometimes not the better half. The thing that a lot of people have missed is that Bobbie and her partners created a SONG, not just a lyric.

It was also an exercise in learning to blend styles and thought. Collaborators have to learn to give and take in and that 2 hour exercise was a great opportunity to do that. Even better was the opportunity to do that in "real time" as a team. Not just adapting each other's ideas but creating as a team.

When it comes to creating, developing a sense of humility is essential. "All artists stand on the shoulders of another".

Creators need to have a well developed ego and sense of pride to be able to put their work before others BUT an overdeveloped ego or "God's Gift To Art" syndrome only gets in their way and obscures creative vision.

There really isn't a "good" or "bad" song. There are songs that speak to us, that move us, that help us to enjoy life, that helps gives expression to our own thoughts and feelings etc.

Either we like it or we don't. That is what this board is about. We respond to the style, contents, idea etc.. We let the writer know how it affects us. If enough people are truly engaged by the song, then it has possibilities. If the song does what it was supposed to do, then it is a success. If not, a revaluation is in order.

This particular song, like any other has strengths and weaknesses. It is quite possible that where the lyric appears weak, that is the place where the melody is strong. Hard to tell because the lyric is only half of what was produced.

Anyway, off my soapbox. I liked the so cold it burns me idea. Like dry ice. Cool.


Sis

Oh MY GAWD!!! Anthony... hasn't anyone ever told you, "DON'T FEED an already overindulgent, self-consumed, over inflated ego"? Geesh...

And to personally address the source of my irritation, let me set the record straight, I believe you have a rare talent, and I believe you know you do. It makes you a very disagreeable and pompous character. But I wish you luck.

And now FINALLY, Bobbie... I WISH I could have attended this seminar. You were able to spend time with folks that not only know about writing, but about the business as well. That is a rare opportunity and as long as you had fun, came away feeling satisfied, fulfilled, and with a deeper understanding, then it was all time well spent.

Good on ya Bobbie!!
Tink

[This message has been edited by TINK (edited 04-28-2002).]

Tink, please point to an example of my "self-absortion". knew you couldn't. my post had nothing to do with telling people not to educate themselves. my post was ALL about educating yourself...just with a more inexpensive, and IMHO, more effective method. as far as personality is concerned, read your own post...you come off as a ranter who has trouble expressing herself, not a good trait in a writer.

Bobbie, as for the college gal who was told she had what it took to make it in music and was able to make up her mind, great. however, to me this reveals a wishy-washy heart. after all, what if she'd been told she DIDN'T have what it took, would she have packed it in? not if she had the fire of an artist. it's my contention if she had that fire in the first place, she wouldn't need to be there, or need to pay others(however well meaning) for validation.

as far as Anthony's post, I appreciate the compliment, but I can't be seen as unbiased. nevertheless, I'd say this about several of Corey's songs, too. commercial success is not a foolproof gauge of talent. I'll go out on a limb and say there's lots more to be learned from Bob's songs than MC Hammer's. I think what Anthony meant is, that if you took a blind taste test...you didn't know who wrote what and how much it sold, some of my stuff might be worth a 2nd look. I pay no attention whatsoever to sales and marquee names when I look at lyrics or music. of the songs Bobbie quoted above, Walkaway Joe was pretty friggin' good. Long As I Live was extremely simplistic and corny. the others i couldn't find. why anyone would be angry at someone who initiates a discussion like this on a MUSIC board, I have my theories but i'll keep them to myself. may the quality of everyone's work support their opinions. so it goes...

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[This message has been edited by couchgrouch (edited 04-28-2002).]

Something about the tactless approach to initiating discussion is what makes me rant. I guess I should apologize... but something about reading this series of threads caused a kneejerk reaction... some things are better left unsaid. (Apparently I don't say them well anyway... )

if you took a blind taste test...you didn't know who wrote what and how much it sold, some of my stuff might be worth a 2nd look.

Just wanted to quickly point out, yours is not the only material on this board worthy of a second look. But opinions are all relative...

Carry on...
Tink

Tink, please point out what was tactless about my initial post on this thread. (not to say I'm never tactless, to me, bad lyrics are hell and I've jumped in without thinking and said so. saying a famous person's lyrics are crap is no sin. saying a poster here lyric is crap is uncalled for, even if the lyric is horrible. no one here needs to feel stomped on) Anthony brought my work into the discussion, I mentioned Corey's lyrics which I think are very good.

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