JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Songwriters Read This One ASAP

Well since Rob won't be coming back (based on his own word, let's see if he actually keeps it), I went ahead and deleted the long list of links and the fake graphic that shows something that can't actually be done in reality on our end. But we'll leave this post so that anyone searching for these idiots will get to read their responses (and refusal to answer any questions) and all their attacks. If someone reads this and STILL does any business with Rob or Bob or any of those folks, they only have themselves to blame.

Brian

LOL I tried Robert.
Kicking myself I didn't use hot 'N spicy actually.
I used it in one of my New Orleans songs recently, but it totaly escaped me this time.
Musta been the wrong box I typed it in.
Well said Mike.
First time I have ever heard the word Commonwealth used in relationship to anything but Britain and the colonies actually.
Its a bum post nobody learns anything out of.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

So, I've read the Songwriters Radio Services contract (which could use some help on its legal language, btw). Let me see if I've got this straight. Paying $15 to SRS entitles me to a registration number. That registration number in itself does nothing for me, but it DOES entitle me to pay another $50 to a song broker ("upload fee") who then, presumably, promotes my music to satellite radio stations, so long as I do it within 30 days of registering and paying the $15. The contract does not provide a location for SRS, the people I'm signing the contract with, nor does it state which state's laws govern the execution of the contract. It doesn't provide a name of a responsible party for SRS anywhere in the contract. I'd say this contract is nothing more than a submission form attached to a $15 payment. It does not have the elements required to be a legally binding contract.

So, next, I want to know how SRS is, who runs it and where they're located. The contract doesn't disclose it, which is disturbing, but the site surely must.

No individual's names on the "About Us" page. No physical address on the "Contact Us" page. So I'm not sure who SRS is.

So, SRS would like me to sign a contract with a party that has no physical address, no contact phone number, no responsible party's name, and no disclosure of the company's principals (owners/directors)? Just send $15 off into the ether for what?

This is not evidence of a business-savvy organization. If you want to represent yourself (or SRS, whoever they are) as legitimate, get more elements of legitimacy in the website. Also remember to check your spelling and grammar. The site's main page is atrocious in its poor use of English. Show some pride in presentation. If you (or SRS) can't spell or write, contract out the web page content to someone who can.

Oh... and insulting the board owner is generally considered a marketing faux pas in most reasonable business circles. In this context, the board owner is actually your 1st level of introduction to the rest of us. Insulting the contact point doesn't usually leave a good impression on the people you're being introduced to through him. Just common business sense.

-- James


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You can really only please one songwriter at a time. Might as well be yourself! :^)


Samples of my music at www.soundclick.com/jamesmitchell.htm

OK, I went back to this site because yesterday when I was there, I spent about 20 minutes or so nosing around before I went back and posted my earlier comments.


First off, these folks have the people skills of a gnat....but when you dig into their site more, there is a bunch of good stuff there. So take some time to read through their stuff. You don't HAVE to use their service.


(They do have a tremendous disdain for the PROs which come through loud and clear, and they do make some pretty strong statements so be prepared for that)


In a nutshell for Question 2)

What they want is songs they can upload to a worldwide library only the industry can access. If the industry finds the song appealing, they will find the money to make your product go.


IT DOES TAKE MONEY. IN FACT $600 per song, and they want 5 songs with 2 versions of each song. One is without a vocal track. From what I could see, it looks like $4,500 total (with 10 songs you get a discount) to upload then it seems like there's a recurring 100 per week for promotion. IF the song proves popular (they claim the upload is test marketing) they are prepared to find the money to produce and market and distribute.


Your "blood" pays for the master, meaning you'd have to put up a fair amount of money, but its money you would not spend if the "test marketing" indicates you shouldn't. Only with positive test marketing data do you go forward.


IS IT A SCAM ONLY FOR THE $4,500 plus promo fees? I can't say. But taking their advice (if it is legit) means you own your own masters (you produced them remember) and they handle the rest. NOTE ON FEES... there so much stuff, there may be more to pay....or I could be wrong ..but this is what gleaned from the ton of info.


In summary, you enter into an arrangement whereby you are executive producer of your own material. You produce (according to their criteria) material for upload, and wait and see if it "hits" with the industry types who use their music database (it is distributed via satellite). If it "hits" you go into full scale production with some marketing data behind you to help the financiers make up their minds. It appears that beyond providing the masters, no more money is needed from you. They claim that because it has generated market interest, they can find the financing.


Note that though it seems to be a rational business model, I have no idea if it is legitimate or not.


But it may be that a someone who meets some very practicqal criteria (you'll find them....they speak to your "business readiness" ) will find investigating this more fully is worthwhile.


Now please don't use this post to riff onto yeah but what if they..... because that is entirely unproductive. All I wanted to do was answer Q2....what are they offering, and what is the cost....

Beyond this its caveat emptor, so do whatever due diligence you need to either move forward or not. I did do a google search as well, and they do not come up with the same kind of "credible links" as BMG, Sony etc. Mean something? maybe.


Ciao


-30

[This message has been edited by John Voorpostel (edited 10-25-2005).]

My understanding it that would be $3,000 John.
You state $600 per song for five songs, not per copy of song. five times $600 is $3,000.
Lucky one of us is a numbers man eh Cobber.
Graham


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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

From my understanding, each song has two copies. One is a full rendition, one lacks the main vocal track. Hence 5 songs becomes 10. In addition, a volume discount applies, so that it becomes $450 per song.

But I could be wrong the way I read it. In which case its 5 songs (volume discount at $450 = $2250

Logic says a song is a song and that each song needs both a vocal and a backing only version should not make that into two songs.
I didn't see the discount bit John.
Graham


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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

Does the $100 per week for promotion look like it's per song? If so, we're talking another $500 - 1000 a week in costs to play in this game with the recommended 5 songs and 2 versions of each.

It seems like this could get very expensive very quickly.

- James

[This message has been edited by JamesM (edited 10-25-2005).]

Actually, reading some of the contracts and conditions on the site, I believe it is a real can of worms fed on confusion and as such, is not worth wasting any more time on.
Just5 too many conflicting points to be real.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

Nice to see you're still on duty Sergeant Cobber


Yes its not a "clean site", seems to repeat itself, and its hard to distil its essence...


But as I said, they appear to have the people skills of a gnat, and that could certainly translate into poor communication\marketing skills.


Actually my biggest worry is that for a company that claims to be one of the world's 6 main general lincensors, on par with Sony/BMG, Vivendi\Universal etc, and one that claims a long history, a google search turns up mighty little in the way of credible references.

-30


[This message has been edited by John Voorpostel (edited 10-25-2005).]

Can you imagine deciding to go with their services and then have to deal with those people skills they just displayed here and on their own website?
They'd be continually screaming at you while you're continually writing more checks and taking it up the . . .

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www.JavaMusiK.com

[This message has been edited by JavaMusiK (edited 10-25-2005).]

Anyone who would pay these guys 45 cents let along 4500 dollars to do ANYTHING needs to be examined by mental health care worker. Even with John V's careful explanation, it has to be one of the biggest wastes of money I have ever heard of. Seriously. The idea that they can do ANYTHING for you that will get you that money back and a reasonable return on the investment consistently for everyone paying them is a joke. They can't produce any success stories, except of course a very nice living for a bunch of people who like to use fake Military titles in their names.

No wonder they didn't want to explain what they do and how much it costs. Because anyone with common sense (and I am shocked that John would not find their service laughable on all levels) should see through it as nothing but a confusing mess that serves to make them a lot of money with no responsiblity back to you in return. The fact that they don't even supply names and contacts and address of all the principle players when they give you a contract screams scam.

Add to that their anti semitic rantings and their obnoxious and unprofessional conduct here when folks simply asked them a question and you've got probably to worst scam on every level we've ever seen here in 8 years.

Since Rob said he wasn't coming back, lets see if he and his minions can even be honest about that. I suspect the answer will be no. Scammers hate nothing more than being exposed for what they are.

Brian

Question - Is this service the same as 'Bibb Promotional Services'?

I don't know nite Piano.
How many chips. I mean pips, does the boss of that one have?
On his shoulder that is.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

[This message has been edited by Graham (edited 10-26-2005).]

Brian I'm surprised by your statement that I've somehow been bamboozled by this. (no not your exact words....)


All I said in favour of these guys is that their offering had a practical business foundation. You own the masters, (isn't this a huge advantage??), and you test market before putting a bunch of cash into production, distribution and marketing. So spend $10,000 before you spend a whole bunch more.


That to me is a solid, practical, business approach. But of course that test marketing can be done other ways too, for example, playing a song out live will tell you the same thing...faster and cheaper...and you may even get paid for it.


As for the rest, their diatribes, anti semitism and scant results from a google search scare me away.


Ciao

John,

They want your money. They aren't interested in helping you get your songs airplay. The charts they talk about are fabrications formulated in their basement most likely.

The truth is, they don't give a rats ass about your songs or anyone elses. Their entire scheme is designed to make you think that they do.

You're probably right Greg. From what I saw on Google, the only references come from their own site, their satellite upload site, a couple of "self posted" link sites, and some BBs like JPF where, not surprisingly, people were left with a bad taste in their mouths.

This does not reflect the operation of a company that likens itself to a major player.


Again, all I wanted to do was answer question 2). In no way is this meant to support these people. Its just they were not forthcoming with the information, so I dug it out.


BTW, I see from various postings you're beginning to make some impact out there. I wish you the best with that.

Ciao

Absolutely... this business "model" is bogus from head to toe... what radio station or satellite service is going to bother listening to your uploaded song, assuming they can even find it amongst the myriad of songs (supposedly 25,000, according to VMG's own numbers)?

Here's what happens, oh gullible ones... you pay them the various fees and such to get your song "uploaded"... voila, within a week or so you see your name on their bogus atlantic satellite chart, probably somewhere within the 2000's... then next week you see it in the 1500's and they tell you it seems to be a 'mover', so keep spending that $100 a week or so 'promotional' money... assuming they can get you to spend enough $100 bills, your song climbs and, gee, maybe even gets into the top 100!!! Now you're ready for the big kill, the ExP (executive producer) deal.

Ask yourselves this... who is going to play your music, beside local college radio and some mom-and-pop Euro-country stations, when
a) Nobody knows you from Adam
b) You don't have product to sell in the brickfront stores
c) You don't have high-five to mid-six figure budgets to do the promotion that the current Billboard 100 stars and their labels have?

Wake up!

The kicker to all this is, once you start shelling out the money, and you notice nothing seems to be happening beside your name on that chart (e.g., no producers or labels or promoters or agents are calling you), heaven forfend you start asking questions!!! This puts you automatically on the 'turkey list' and makes you part of the 'idiot element', and when nothing happens after that it's because your questions "queered the works".

Nice racket... give me money, and don't you dare ask how I spend it or what sort of proof I can show that I've earned it.

Sorta like being married! (but without the home cooking)


[This message has been edited by RobertK (edited 10-26-2005).]

Greg, (AC1)

I experienced that very concept from Loggin's Promotions. They took the fee for radio promotion despite the fact we had no business trying that part of the music industry. Their charts were published by them in association with another name to throw people off the scent. I checked though, and found out who the partners were.

Meaningless charts that had us in front of McCartney for Run Devil Run! At first we thought, "man, we're going someplace", then it came to us, "man, we're just sending checks and getting no sales, no calls, no stations even having us on the air that were supposed to be on.....what the hell is this for". For them.

As long as the fees came their way, the unrealistic promotion continued, or we thought it did. Our fault for not seeing all that, just like it would be the fault of people who jump on this current topic bandwagon.

Good points Greg!
John

I've found through my own research that you need to know the people you're dealing with in radio. Otherwise you're throwing money out the window with no return on investment.

I now have some things in the works that may prove very fruitful and I'm not paying up front for it. I'll elaborate when it comes through or falls apart. Too early to tell at the moment. No, I'm not trying out VMG, nor any other radio 'promotions' people at the moment.

Jody

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Music That Makes Your Soul Happy!
www.jodywhitesides.com

I would think if you are spending money to get airplay, you become part of the problem rather than a vicim of it.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

John,

Thanks for sharing your experience. Not to rub salt in the wound, but it's important to also state that we tried hard to warn you NOT to spend that money back at that time. In fact, that's first how we got to know you. I bring it up because I want folks to understand that even smart and diligent people can get caught up in these scams and waste sometimes their entire live savings on these types of scam artists. These guys are among the worst I have ever seen on any level. If their numbers were correct (though I highly doubt anything they claim is true on any level) they would have raked in $4500 hundred dollars time 25,000 people, and then another $100 dollars per week of promotion times all those people for several to many weeks? That would be 112+ Million dollars plus another 2.5 Million for each week those folks paid a 100 dollar promotional fee. Do you think all that could exist mysteriously in a vacuum where there's no evidence or indication beyond their own bizarre website (and those of their cronies) that they even exist, let alone have had ANY actual successes for anyone? Imagine those numbers. It would be the biggest thing in the music idustry.

The truth is a bunch of old ladies and desperate newbies have been suckered out of their retirement and bingo money by these people and just because they might have some legit info (i.e. all scam artists surround themselves with the appearance of legit info as much as they can to help remove the stink of the fraud) they don't deserve any REAL credibility or acknowledge like the one given by John V. I think Robert K. has summed up this long post the best. Even a tiny amount of clear thinking and common sense makes this entire fraudulent scheme crumble apart. That's why Rob and his cronies are always in attack mode. And why they obviously blame people's reasonable skepticism for all the ills of the world. Keep people deluded and ignorant about what you do and how things actually work and you can keep ripping them off over and over again. Associate yourself with as much credible info and facts (that have no direct connection to what you actually do) and people will be lazy and associate the two things as if they are related (politicians do this all the time). Attack anyone question your tactics and make them part of the evil conspiracy or the uneducated masses to divert the obvious warning flags. These guys do all this like clock work and sadly it succeeds in making some otherwise nice people spend their money and get ripped off. Thanks to Robert for bring it all back to reality.

Brian

And hey.
I learned a new word out of this too.
Watch out for my next song titled Schadenfreude.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

Luckily, that number of 25K songs allegedly uploaded to the satellite is definitely not the number of people who have been scammed, rather: if you look at those atlantic charts and see that they cover a plethora of popular songs produced in the past four decades, with a sprinkling here and there of the VMG 'stable', then it all comes back to reality.

Pepper your 'charts' with known names and big hits to give them the appearance of credibility. Then collect a few hundred from Joe Tyro and throw his song "Ain't This Exciting, Mom!" into the mix, 'place' it somewhere in the top thousand in the first week or two and away we go! We'll get you into the WORLDWIDE TOP 100, kid!!!

What next? Well... you won't be touring state fairs with Playtone's Galaxy Of Stars.

Yep Brian, I remember that time of having our ears filled with our fingers. Desperate music makers should check their desperation at the door. Makes us blind to the obvious. Hard lesson to learn, not becase it was our money, but that of our finance manager we took on with gratitude, excitment and huge hopes, (my sister). That pains us to no end.

Can't jump into anything involving paying out the nose anymore, that's for sure. (ask my recent keyboard saleman!) He couldn't understand why the punching gloves.

Glad you brought up the point you made about us so others might think even longer before doing anything involving money.

That said, radio promotion does involve paying money to get played, by many if not all artist/record labels. It's done by hiring a radio promoter to shop the song to radio. The difference between a legit promoter and one just taking the money, is the legit ones won't take just anybody on. We got turned down by a few for not having a band playing in any of the markets. BUT that was from us checking on the workings of radio promotion after we thought to be getting ripped off. (We didn't tell the other promoters our experience of our promoter until after we got turned down). Then we thanked them for being up front. They just said they "have their credibility to think about". Makes sense all around if you want to be taken seriously by stations and other artists.

ONE day,,,I hope to make all that up to my trusting sister. She still trusts me. I'm her only brother, so she says she has to.
That's love!

But I'm glad so many here don't have to go through my pain of losing another's money to know when they smell a rat. Good for all of you! Watch each other's back as always!

AND listen when TOLD!

John



[This message has been edited by dhsongs (edited 10-27-2005).]

I was'nt going to get in to this debate.
I just had to state how it amazes me that someone can pitch something on the net and not even take the care or research for what they are pitching.
I could do a better design and fluke people out more with a free site.
I am not even educated or good with grammer.
If I were to pitch something there is an interesting book I found called the dictionary.
There are scammers I have encountered that have done it better and at least have an ounce of people skills.
I must assume from the unprofessional manner displayed by this alleged col. that he (or them) are nothing more than 13 year old brats whose parents are allowing too much time around a computer. And they probably frequent sites like this thinking that the military people here will give them some kind of instantaneous respect for using military titles.
Furthermore, if biggeted posts were made in a respectable site, the administrator would throw the members ass out about as quickly as a bouncer would in a road side dive.
And finally, if anyone is that desperate to get heard, there are all kinds of free mp3 sites.
There are even dj's with stations all over the world that would be very eager to have something fresh to play if you search the sites enough. They even have some good, legitimate connections.
And they don't charge anything to play you.
College radio helped launch REM in to the mainstream. A post talked of college radio like it's a joke, but at least they have a proven track record.
There are also sites like SoundClick and cd baby that offer promos and distribution for fairly cheap.
At least if the stations don't play you and the cd's don't sell you are not out thousands of dollars, and it's a start.
There are all kinds of ways to market yourself without throwng away money to nincompacts that talk like brats.

I came to this site like many other members trying to find out about a fraud (Statue Records). This makes them look like geniuses.
Maybe the professional as hell attitude here is too much for me at times and I have disdain for "what's corporate". But people like that are the last ones you are going to fool. Especially if they are musicians trying to earn a buck.

Anyone that thinks people here are really that stupid may as well move on.
Or stay for that matter.
It is more funny than comedy central.
Especially since the author(s) of this thread are actually serious about it.

Bless all that keep reminding us and I can only pray for the souls of such low lives.


Matt

[This message has been edited by My Name? (edited 10-28-2005).]

With Freddy Frederickson?? Diane Dane??

Mr. Dooooowwwn... Towwwwwwwn!

"How did we get here, Skitch?!"

"I led you here... for I... am Spartacus!"

Well . . . I like Wisconsin!

Songcounter,
Nashville's a dying up there but VMG is doing a "Billion" dollars worth of music business, right? So why you a botherin' to come on this puny little board looking for desperate songwriter's? You don't need um, you got all the success you need, right? By the way, I've been to the VMG Web site. Sure is screwy. You must excuse us here in the "sticks". We are just a bunch of stumble bums but we're doin' the best that we can.

Now Songcounter, don't take this the wrong way, don't go away mad, just go away, and we will use you from time to time as a bad example. Yer gonna be hard to forget. Bye.