JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Ambiguity vs. Clarity

Ok, so here’s a question. How important do you guys feel clarity is in a song? I understand, from a balladeer tradition it’s essential. But I think of so many of the songs I grew up on & it amazes me how many of them don’t really make any sense at all. “Stairway to Heaven” is a great example. It’s one of the most popular & overplayed songs of all times, but it really doesn’t say a damn thing. It eludes to a whole lot, it has great imagery, but it doesn’t really mean anything. “Roundabout”, by Yes; same thing, it sounds great but what the heck are they singing about,

“in and around the lane
mountains come out of the sky
and they stand there
one mile over we'll be there and we'll see you
ten true summers we'll be back
and laughing too”

The Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, Tons of Bob Dylan, David Bowie, The Grateful Dead, and many other bands I grew up on wrote songs that “feel” like they tell a story, and sort of do, but sort of don’t.

Granted, I realize that most of the people I grew up listening to were so high they had to scrape these people off the ceiling with a rake to record these songs. And I know times (and market forces) change. But I think there is a certain strength to writing like this: it allows the listener to decide what exactly the song means & makes it more personal because the listener is superimposing their own personal experiences onto the song & it really doesn’t matter what the songwriter meant.

What do you’all think ?


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Be who you are & say what you feel because those that mind don't matter & those that matter don't mind.
-Dr. Seuss

This is a topic that has always fascinated me. Some of my favorite songs (Beatles were masters at this) are in the category of "danged if I know what its about - but I know its about something".

My own theory is that even the writers don't know what they are about. In other words, I don't think they have a concrete idea and then ask themselves how to make it vague. I think it actually comes to them that way. A lot of intuition and stream of consciousness. I also think its a major skill or gift. (Since I don't have it, I'm not sure which it is.)

What's interesting is that this kind of writing can have meaning to other people, probably meanings that never occurred to the writer.

Another thing I find interesting is to see how various artists have moved in and out of this style. The Beatles started out very concrete and moved into it. Springsteen started out with stream of consciousness lyrics (know that's not a good descriptor but I'm drawing a blank) and became more concrete. Dylan seems to have moved into, then out of, this kind of songwriting.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Interesting topic though! Sad to say, I see fewer of these songs as the years go by...

Scott

I write country music, and country music has always had a fixation on the deliberately concrete. It's one of the things I enjoy about the genre. (Like a lot of my generation, I got over stream-of-consciousness stuff in the '60s--mostly, I think, by eliminating consciousness altogether.)

What I try to do in the stuff I write is use very concrete imagery to get across points that a wide audience will understand (or, alternatively, needs to understand). And do so in a way that a wide audience will remember. Sort of Platonics--with a twang.

And I guess I've worked in that "box" long enough to get spoiled. The material by Dylan, the Dead, and suchlike '60s icons that I like best are the ones that do the same thing I'm trying to do.

Joe
www.soundclick.com/bands/7/joewrabek_music.htm

I have this conversation with my writing parteners at least once a week. I write mainly for film and tv trying to get placement there as it's impossible to crack the mainstream. I purposely write vague not as extreme as "Roundabout" or others greats.
Just a little loose so it's not to specific this way it fits more movie themes and scenes.
I call it the art of writing vague but still emotional and with some originality.
I also love the straight at you songs boy this is the hardest kind. "Midnight Train To Georgia" and thousands of others. Like I always say "Piano Man" doesn't need no video.
Seals Grammy winning song and in Batman Forever
"Kiss From A Rose" Love that song still can't figure out what he's saying.


Peace
Sub

Here's another angle on this. The Beatles wrote some very "poetic" obscure songs. Their first songs, though, were things like "She Loves You, yeah, yeah, yeah." Not very obscure. The first Bob Dylan songs were things like "Don't Think Twice It's Alright" which I didn't find obscure at all. Then came the drugs. Not that everyone writing obscurely were "druggies" but they were definately writing "psychedelic" lyrics. Of course, I'm sure Yes, the Grateful Dead, and Led Zeppelin weren't doing drugs, but they may have been influenced by those who were.

Audiences changed. Lyrics changed. People didn't want "I love you" they wanted their minds blown. They wanted Mc Arthur's Park melting in the dark; excuse me while I kiss the sky; alligator lizards in the air; lucy in the sky with diamonds; sunshine superman; itchycoo park; and an endless array of musical devices designed to make the hippies go "Wow, man! What a trip!"

Not that every unusual lyric or artistic display is or was drug induced. Hieronymous Bosch's Garden of Earthly Delights amazed me with it's trippy, sometimes futuristic images when I admired it at the Prado; El Greco painted some other worldly stuff; Van Gogh; Dali; and writers like Lewis Carroll and Samuel Taylor Coleridge stretched the mind. But Western and especially American popular music, built mostly on down to earth images and ideas, was changed forever by the psychedelic experiment.

Or at least, that's what I've read...I can't seem to remember it.

All the Best,
Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

Dang if I know, I'm still trying to figure out Louie, Louie.

Led Zeppelin and The Grateful Dead weren't doing drugs??????

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bc

Both devices are writer tools.
Thing is, not to use one where the other woul;d get the desired job done better.
inuendo is one point.
It works great where there is mainly an entertaiment factor going down.
Only rarely will it do it's job with the majority if it is a mesage song, as some wil get it , some won't, and some will get someting unintended out of it.
i find having the wonder factor in anything that is desperatly trying to say something, is a bad choise.
Songs like Bob Young's Suger Cake, is a fun song and part of the fun is having some not see the bend in it.
Hope FM regulartyly play songs that are in fact against moral code issues stated in their Constitution as not to be discussed or played, simply because nobody in programing has figured what they are in fact (as stated by the writers of these song), about.
Plainly stated cases most times work in all issues.
And bent ones are a whole lot more fun.
Decide the target and go for it.
Graham



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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

I like songs that says what it means and means what it says.If I want to scratch my head to figure out what the lyrics mean,I'll read poetry.

Everett

R.E.M. and U2 are also masters of this writing style. Lots of imagery and metaphor. The songs are a bunch of pieces strewn together.
R.E.M.s song "Man On The Moon" is about the comedian Andy Kauffman, but it's really difficult to know that unless somebody tells you. Then when you listen to it again armed with the new meaning, the song lyrics start to make sense to you. I can't imagine that it would be easy to write like this. But it might be a little like writing analytical poetry.

I write some songs that are pretty concerte, but seem to write more that are vague/meaphorical/downright convoluted.

Sometimes I don't know what I'm writing about, but it evokes a feeling. And the bottom line is, that is what art is SUPPOSED to do: evoke a feeling.

Does it matter if you can tell exactly what the writer is getting at? No. Not to me. All that matters is that I feel something.

It's a song, not a short story (although it CAN be both). You have the sound of the music and the SOUND of the words that can evoke something in you.

I think people tend to get down on one style or the other because they aren't good at it or just don't "get" it.

I am not the greatest story song writer, but I can appreciate the great ones.

But I like when there is room for each listener to get something of THEIR OWN from my songs. Where I, as the writer am not telling the listener what to think/feel, but just letting them react.

I think the (receptive) listener gets a whole lot more out of a song like that... make it a part of themselves.

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Hop On Pop, the band

My 2 cents
(Quote)I think the (receptive) listener gets a whole lot more out of a song like that... make it a part of themselves.)
Seems to me that the nation's "thinking process" has become a lot more shallow than it used to be. The "receptive" part above is I think the problem with "vague" songs. Most people don't seem to want to "think". They want to be "entertained". Look at the "news" on TV. It used to be news, now it's mostly entertainment. The majority, especially the younger ones, don't even know who their government officials are.They know all about the entertainment programs though.
The "sensational" stories are what get all the air time. Not serious news.
The main part of what I write is country, so there the majority tell some kind of a story.
Wy

I dunno Wyman I think the same argument could be made in the 50’s in some ways. Yet there were beatniks in the 50’s putting all kinds of abstract stuff to jazz noodeling, and that contributed to what happened in the 60’s.

But there have always been vague lyrics and some of them are really entertaining.

Let it rain, let it pour,
Let it rain a whole lot more,
'Cause I got them deep river blues.
Let the rain drive right on,
Let the waves sweep along,
'Cause I got them deep river blues.

My old gal's a good old pal,
And she walks like a water fowl,
When I get them deep river blues.
Ain't no one to cry for me,
And the fish all go out on a spree
When I get them deep river blues.

Give me back my old boat,
I'm gonna sail if she'll float,
'Cause I got them deep river blues,
I'm goin' back to Muscle Shoals,
Times are better there I'm told,
Cause I got them deep river blues.

Let it rain, let it pour,
Let it rain a whole lot more,
'Cause I got them deep river blues,
Let the rain drive right on,
Let the waves sweep along,
'Cause I got them deep river blues.

If my boat sinks with me.
I'll go down, don't you see,
'Cause I got them deep river blues,
Now I'm gonna say goodbye,
And if I sink, just let me die,
'Cause I got them deep river blues.

Let it rain, let it pour,
Let it rain a whole lot more,
'Cause I got them deep river blues,
Let the rain drive right on,
Let the waves sweep along,
'Cause I got them deep river blues

I’ve always loved Deep River Blues, but it doesn’t tell any concrete story. There’s a bunch of nautical references, a sexual innuendo, and no real story – line. It may be a story about a man losing his woman, it might not, all in the eye of the beholder. Still one hell of a tune.


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Be who you are & say what you feel because those that mind don't matter & those that matter don't mind.
-Dr. Seuss

I like a good mix of surreal, abstract lyrics and logical, concrete lyrics. Sometimes to me an abstract lyric can capture an emotion better than a concrete lyric in that instance.

On a tangent, to me the present kings of abstract lyrics, the kind that try to involve you with emotional words and phrases, but when you actually listen to the songs they don't say much at all: Coldplay.

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A convertible ride. A big blanket on the sand and a warm sun. www.nicholasalan.com

Another great thread. I've always adhered to minimalism in my writing whenever possible with the idea that the listener should apply interpretation, the way they see the song.

Doesn't always work and I try to be flexible. A story told too tightly can sometimes be just too constricting. But, on the other hand...

RICE

In my own personal opinion, I think that writers too often try so hard to be artistic that they don't make any damn sense. I forget what song I was listening to the other day, but I think it was some rock song my boyfriend had on. I listened...REALLY listened, and REALLY tried to "get it." And I turned to my boyfriend and said, "what the hell is he talking about?" His response? "I don't have any idea."

My philosophy? I don't mind some ambiguity, but if you are going to be symbolic and artsy, you better make sure your symbolism makes sense. Plain and simple. Our job is to entertain, not to baffle and leave people scratching their heads.

Plus, I think a lot of times artists and writers don't make sense on purpose just to see what people have to say about the true "meaning" of their songs. But I won't play their little mind games.

Gena

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Are you ready...?
www.soundclick.com/genalewis
genalewis@juno.com

Good advice for professional songwriters.
But for those of us who are simply following our muse: I don't think any of us are INTENTIONALLY confusing, unless we're making a point.

I try to stay true to myself and to my art. If people don't get it, that's fine with me. I have a 9-5.
But I don't think it makes my songs any less valid than a professional's. In some ways, it makes them more valid. More pure expression, rather than market-driven.

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Hop On Pop, the band

Gee. I always figured that song was abaout a bloke's love for his boat and how the fish always bite good for him when the tide is running.
Or about trying to quit the needle.
Now I have to think again.
i do claim there are a minimum of three options to any qustion, so now i have to find the third one at least.
Like it because it sounds good so guess it don't matter what it says.
or anybody says it says.
everybody knows words don't count for anything if they don't sing well.
Graham

Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

I understand everything about songwriting except the Greek part. Which part do you want me to explain to you? Oh, that part. Well buddy it's all Greek to me.

Ya camr to the right place Cobber.
having ben raised in Melbourne which, is said to have more Greeks in it than Athens, greek is my second language, so fire away, and i'll exlain it for ya Roy.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

lol im glad i dont have that particular problem.all my songs are sad ones for some reason.somebody told me they feel like slitting their wrists after listening to a few i knew there was a small niche out there for my writing somewhere even if its an emergency room at the hospital lol

hummmmmm.......number one question I get is what does that mean.
Answer: hell I don't know.
I tend to be very pragmatic in everyday life and nebulous and observational in my writing and art. I guess I just want to paint a broad picture. Not make judgements, but rather create an environment that can accommodate al ot of different folks.
Don't do it on purpose though, it just comes out that way.

Here's one that people tend to ask about. To me it is very clear. But you just never know what someone else will think.

ON MY WAY HOME
Lyrics:
On my way home, I met a man made of stone
tears were falling from his eyes, he was shaking
his fists at the sky,
He said don't come around here, don't come around here
it has not been safe for years,
don't come around here.

On my way home I met a woman by the side of the road,
she was dancing round and around,
lightening was crashing to the ground,
she said don't come around here, unless you are
willing to face all your fears, don't come around here
it has not been safe here for years and years.

On my way home I was weary, I felt so alone,
I sat down and started to cry, and a million lonely
people passed me by.
I said don't come around here, don't come around here, if there's anything in life you
hold dear, don't come around here.

On my way ome, I was on my way home, .......

Best, Liz

P.S. I gave up on the debate a long time ago. Art will be art. It tends to have a mind of it's own anyway, and if you are open as an artist, just let it out however way it want to get out.
If however you are a technician or crafter, doing work for hire etc...then you pretty much have to tow the line, and give the client what they want.

And on the other hand who's to say, just abouut anything can become a hit regardless of clarity.
I mean McArthur Park....come on...what the heck were they thinking, and what does it mean..

The only clear image I retain out of "MacArthur Park" is of the cake being left out in the rain. And it does make me recall the Sixties (which in upstate New York didn't happen till the Seventies--we were a very developmentally delayed area). Yep, I had friends who did things like that. Might erven have done it myself (but I don't remember).

Joe
www.soundclick.com/bands/7/joewrabek_music.htm

Huh? I don't understand the question.

I had a poetry teacher who fumed when we used words with implied value judgments --- like "ambiuous," "vague," and "obscure" --- for poems that were dense in metaphor.

He insisted we use the word complex. (Hey, teach, it's poetry. I'll use the words I need. But he, of course, had a point.)

I don't think it's necessarily true that the public has lost it's taste for the complex. U2 is still one of the biggest --- probably the biggest --- band out there.

The problem is there're writers writing songs dense in metaphor because they have something complex to say, and there're writers writing stuff dense in metaphor to obscure that they have nothing to say.

A lot of good songwriters --- including many in the country vein (Steve Earle, Neil Young) --- can write with primarily concrete imagery, then, in verse three, give you one perfect metaphor that devastates, or pull away the curtain and show you the whole song had been an extended metaphor all along.

I find that my best songs are of that type --- trying to cut through the forest with one perfect metaphor, rather than building one metaphor upon another. Maybe I'm sublime. Maybe I'm lazy. Maybe I'm just creatively limited.