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Originally Posted by John Voorpostel
Nope FD...it depends on which liar you listen to.

and Steve, Marty has come a long way from being Trump's shill.

That's inaccurate. Unsurprisingly.
I didn't like Trump the person when his show was popular. Thought that he was insufferable.

But then he ran for president, and some of his political leanings aligned with mine.
As I explained over and over and am now doing over again....I was then given a choice between a guy who seemed nutty, full of himself and pointlessly chaotic and a lying old parasite who was cashing in on the establishment machine.

I voted for Trump.
Nothwithstanding all the chaos and hell that came with him, he appointed some great SCOTUS people and made a real effort to control the border between my state and the cartels. Personalities aside, that is what truly matters to my life.
Now I am for DiSantis. "Trump with a brain." Yale, Harvard, Naval submarine commander, exemplary governor.

BUTT.....

If the only choice is once again Trump versus Biden or Harris or Hillary or Bootigig (sp) or Newsome or Bernie or AOC or Michelle Obama or other as-yet undetermined inept libtardanian freak-show...I will pull for Trump. A known freak show who gets pretty good results when the smoke clears.
Fortunately, you and Steve cannot vote in this country. You all can celebrate your liberal policies as you watch your lovely but uninhabitably cold country continue to descend into degeneracy as a result of the policies that you hold dear. Good luck with that.

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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
it's party first, details later.

FD,

You are steadfast in promoting this idea, and I would say by and large, you're right, to a degree, especially these days. But what about Independent voters, Independent politicians? Aren't the Independent voters choosing their candidate based on which one is more in line with their particular issues? And what about intangibles like personal appearance and media savvy? Some elections are swung based on how well a candidate uses media. Happened with JFK, apparently also with Trump winning, using Facebook to his advantage.

And so it would seem to follow that there must be many voters who are at least occasionally a little "independent" minded though are registered D or R? Or is your contention STILL that NO registered R or D is EVER independent minded in any election? That's like what........every voter in the USA to zero?

That would be a score of something like:

Always vote along party lines: 175,000,000 people
Those who SOMETIMES vote for a candidate outside their registered party affiliate who embodies specific beliefs and particular policies that matter more (to the voter) than their own party's candidate's beliefs/policies: 0

If you find you have a "theory" and no matter what information pushes against it you find a way to "make it work" so that your theory remains untainted in your mind, perhaps take a step back and try to understand "confirmation bias" and how our minds can trick us into ignoring facts or at least bending them to make them fit our theory:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

If you find your mind is immedietely trying to make "Independent minded voters" fit your idea, you may have a particular shade of confirmation bias. Nothing to be ashamed of. We all do on something or other.

I think if you just qualify your usual blanket statement a bit, it can withstand more scrutiny.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 03/11/23 06:19 PM.

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Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
But what about Independent voters, Independent politicians? Aren't the Independent voters choosing their candidate based on which one is more in line with their particular issues? And what about intangables like personal appearance and media savvy? Some elections are swung based on how well a candidate uses media. Happened with JFK, apparently also with Trump winning, using Facebook to his advantage.

Mike

Agreed Mike.
The winning votes come down to many things, but the "independents" can be the tie-breakers.

Because I like you, I will share some Marty-think concerning that. Society is polarized without a doubt, moreso than any other time that I can remember in my life. (Was not alive during the Civil War).

The polarization comes down mostly to identities. Black & white & brown & this and that. People talk about this issue and that issue, but mostly it is identity politics and "conservative" versus "progressive" identification.

"I am and you're not."

To my view this current de-cohesiveness started the day that the OJ verdict was read. Obama promised relief but made it worse. The divide is so strident that it sorts people left and right .....whether they like it or not.

In an atmosphere like this, the fringe right and left are lunatics, angry lunatics and some wannabe anarchists.
The strident left and right are immovable and agitated.
The center left and center right are not immovable but kind of frozen as to what to do or how to feel because events continually happen that screw up any vision of a better world that they subscribe to.

In the dead center cluster the "independent voters" (tie-breakers) who make up their mind "based on the issues."

The Marty-ism...
In this hot and polarized atmosphere, if someone does not know who they are going to vote for months before an election....they are hopelessly lost and oblivious to what is happening around them....yet they DECIDE some close races.

What am I? Strident-Right-Light with "carve-outs" regarding abortion, religion and gay marriage.

Thank you Mr Speaker. I yield the floor to the gentlemen from Canada. wink Am headed for the gym and dinner.

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Good stuff, Marty. I especially like your quick-and-dirty breakdown of voter affiliation by degree. I can imagine this as a Copi Diagram where there's some overlap, especially from centrists to dead centrists (haha) as there's a bit of fluidity in how peoples' affiliations can change over time, but you nail it "as a snapshot" in any one given moment in time.

You made me laugh with "strident-right-light" smile

I think I am center left, but I flux a bit. And I can sometimes vote based on just "liking" or "not liking" a candidate as a person, too. I voted for Perot in '92 haha. This was my main problem with Trump: he scored very low with me on "character" and I think character is an important quality in a Prez.

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 03/11/23 07:26 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
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SP wrote

Fortunately, you and Steve cannot vote in this country. You all can celebrate your liberal policies as you watch your lovely but uninhabitably cold country continue to descend into degeneracy as a result of the policies that you hold dear. Good luck with that.

Always remember, Marty, we always get to look down on you from up here....Canada's democracy standing in the world # 12 USA #30 LOL


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Hey Marty .... best country to live in the world #3 Canada ....USA # ah can't find it

Corruption rating... Canada # 14 USA # 24

Type of democracy.... Canada full USA flawed

Last edited by VNORTH2; 03/11/23 06:23 PM.

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Some more stuff

Most peaceful country .... Canada #12 USA #129


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But
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
it's party first, details later.

FD,

You are steadfast in promoting this idea, and I would say by and large, you're right, to a degree, especially these days. But what about Independent voters, Independent politicians? Aren't the Independent voters choosing their candidate based on which one is more in line with their particular issues? And what about intangibles like personal appearance and media savvy? Some elections are swung based on how well a candidate uses media. Happened with JFK, apparently also with Trump winning, using Facebook to his advantage.

And so it would seem to follow that there must be many voters who are at least occasionally a little "independent" minded though are registered D or R? Or is your contention STILL that NO registered R or D is EVER independent minded in any election? That's like what........every voter in the USA to zero?

That would be a score of something like:

Always vote along party lines: 175,000,000 people
Those who SOMETIMES vote for a candidate outside their registered party affiliate who embodies specific beliefs and particular policies that matter more (to the voter) than their own party's candidate's beliefs/policies: 0

If you find you have a "theory" and no matter what information pushes against it you find a way to "make it work" so that your theory remains untainted in your mind, perhaps take a step back and try to understand "confirmation bias" and how our minds can trick us into ignoring facts or at least bending them to make them fit our theory:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

If you find your mind is immedietely trying to make "Independent minded voters" fit your idea, you may have a particular shade of confirmation bias. Nothing to be ashamed of. We all do on something or other.

I think if you just qualify your usual blanket statement a bit, it can withstand more scrutiny.

Mike

Indepndents would not be concerned with if Trump is a good man or not. Only the side that has him on their team, will.

In other words, he's an Ahole if you are Dem, he's a real straight forward man if you are Republican. Others put up with him, know he's an Ahole, but defend him anyway. And Vica Versa

Some exceptions, but i wasnt refering to independents, i was speaking largely about people here. Not many independents here.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/11/23 06:44 PM.
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Even more stuff
Best cities to live in the world Forbes 2022 Toronto #8, Vancouver #5, Calgary#3

Last edited by VNORTH2; 03/11/23 06:45 PM.

VNORTH2
VNORTH2 #1185166 03/11/23 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by VNORTH2
SP wrote

Fortunately, you and Steve cannot vote in this country. You all can celebrate your liberal policies as you watch your lovely but uninhabitably cold country continue to descend into degeneracy as a result of the policies that you hold dear. Good luck with that.

Always remember, Marty, we always get to look down on you from up here....Canada's democracy standing in the world # 12 USA #30 LOL

As long as you brought up physical location Steve....you get to puff about because you sleep next to the 800 pound gorilla. Our location to you provides you with the foremost first line of defense in the world. Life would be very different for you Canadians if not for waking up to find yourself next to a guardian gorilla. But dont get too cocky about it.

#14 vs #24? ... is that truly something that provides bragging rights? Ps...I know the US is corrupt and getting moreso every day.

There are a lot of good things about Canadian society but you people with dual citizenships (Libtardanians) are making inroads and steadily undoing your own good fortune. And patting yourselves on the back all the while. Open thine eyes and see.

Always glad to be of help.
Marty

Ps. Vancouver is beautiful. Spent a week there vacationing with the wife. Loved every day.

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Originally Posted by Sunset Poet
Originally Posted by VNORTH2
SP wrote

Fortunately, you and Steve cannot vote in this country. You all can celebrate your liberal policies as you watch your lovely but uninhabitably cold country continue to descend into degeneracy as a result of the policies that you hold dear. Good luck with that.

Always remember, Marty, we always get to look down on you from up here....Canada's democracy standing in the world # 12 USA #30 LOL

As long as you brought up physical location Steve....you get to puff about because you sleep next to the 800 pound gorilla. Our location to you provides you with the foremost first line of defense in the world. Life would be very different for you Canadians if not for waking up to find yourself next to a guardian gorilla. But dont get too cocky about it.

#14 vs #24? ... is that truly something that provides bragging rights? Ps...I know the US is corrupt and getting moreso every day.

There are a lot of good things about Canadian society but you people with dual citizenships (Libtardanians) are making inroads and steadily undoing your own good fortune. And patting yourselves on the back all the while. Open thine eyes and see.

Always glad to be of help.
Marty


Be careful Marty or we'll pull another 1814 on you...only this time we'll bring the marshmallows and weenies LOL


I just love how you deflect from the facts I quoted that show we are considered to be a very good country to live in and in many categories higher than the US. Instead you found the need to puff out your chest...that might be one of the reasons the world prefers Canada...just saying ...if it's liberal policies that made Canada the envy of much of the world...yeah, I guess we'll just have to suffer through it.


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SP wrote

There are a lot of good things about Canadian society but you people with dual citizenships (Libtardanians) are making inroads and steadily undoing your own good fortune. And patting yourselves on the back all the while. Open thine eyes and see.

Do you even know what your going on about here? Please don't start trying to make people believe you know anything about Canada LOL

We don't pat ourselves on the back...the world does it for us by saying how much they like us. Marty, we're known as the most polite people anywhere...we're always apologizing

This is too easy LOL

Last edited by VNORTH2; 03/11/23 07:36 PM.

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Staying out of "Canada vs USA" except to say Canada has also produced some of the world's best, most diverse recording artists and songwriters......but so has the USA, Texas in particular.

I think Texas vs Canada would make a great musical boxing match, haha...

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 03/11/23 07:53 PM.

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Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Staying out of "Canada vs USA" except to say Canada has also produced some of the world's best, most diverse recording artists and songwriters......but so has the USA, Texas in particular.

I think Texas vs Canada would make a great musical boxing match, haha...

Amen to that Michael...I wouldn't want to go up against you

Steve

Last edited by VNORTH2; 03/11/23 07:56 PM.

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VNORTH2 #1185188 03/12/23 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by VNORTH2
Be careful Marty or we'll pull another 1814 on you...only this time we'll bring the marshmallows and weenies LOL


I just love how you deflect from the facts I quoted that show we are considered to be a very good country to live in and in many categories higher than the US. Instead you found the need to puff out your chest...that might be one of the reasons the world prefers Canada...just saying ...if it's liberal policies that made Canada the envy of much of the world...yeah, I guess we'll just have to suffer through it.

Keep the marshmallows and all Steve. You need fires to stay warm up there.
I did not say that Canada was not a nice country to live in. I said that your celebrated liberal policies are downgrading Canada as you pat yourself on the back.

Things seem easy when someone is in denial.

The primary reasons Canada has the opportunity to be "the envy of the world" is because of it's relative isolation and good fortune to be nestled next to and protected by the 800 pound gorilla. You have us to thank for a great deal of your wonderful national character.

On behalf of the American people, past and present... you're welcome.

Try not to mess up a good thing by voting for degenerative liberal policies up there, and promoting them down here, where I live. Over my lifetime, I've watched such policies undo the US rankings in a lot of categories, education being foremost. Now our cities are laboratories for destructive liberal policies with no bottom in sight. Heed the warnings.

"Envy of the world?" I've never been ice fishing. I'm kinda glad for that. wink

Celine Dion is a wonderful singer. But she aint no Willy.
Could you persuade Pamela Anderson to move back?

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https://www.yahoo.com/news/pence-says-trump-endangered-family-032241007.html

Case in point. None of this matters during the presidency, it's ok to have a man like that running the country , since he is republican and in office

Now that he is not, it's ok to start talking.

That's the phoniism that is politics.

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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
https://www.yahoo.com/news/pence-says-trump-endangered-family-032241007.html

Case in point. None of this matters during the presidency, it's ok to have a man like that running the country , since he is republican and in office

Now that he is not, it's ok to start talking.

That's the phoniism that is politics.

In my opinion and that's all it is...

Pence is a decent man. He is not chaos. He wont even be in a room alone with a woman other than his wife in order to prevent chaos from finding an opportunity
.
I think his aims were Christian-right related and Trump was the only shot that he had at things like RvW. I didnt think that RvW had a one in a million chance of being overturned ever, but Pence got it done by holding his nose and saddling up with Trump. And put up with and suffered through all of the chaos in the White House.

But when commanded by Trump to thwart long established procedures, he stuck with his principals and said no.
I'm not a Christian. Abortion is not a concern of mine. But I think that Pence deserves respect.

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I don't have a problem with his views. But you would not see somebody like him on the Dem ticket.

But, it wasn't the only time Trump went against his views but majority of times he shut up, fir good of party. As did repubs who supported trump

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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
I don't have a problem with his views. But you would not see somebody like him on the Dem ticket.

But, it wasn't the only time Trump went against his views but majority of times he shut up, fir good of party. As did repubs who supported trump

The inconsistency and hypocrisy of someone like Pence serving with someone like Trump is inarguable.
Pence could have declined at the outset.

The entire Trump episode is a strange world...
Trump is a highly entitled 14 year old bully that never grew out of it.
He has walked away from debt leaving lots of people unpaid and hurt
He has proven to be a serial liar.
He is a proud serial philanderer who was caught on tape bragging about his extramarital escapades a week before his election
His most famous dalliance is with a porn star and it is still in the news.

YET....

He was the champion of the Christian Right and held prayer meetings at the White house.

Personally, I think that he is no more of a Christian than me. But in his plan for the presidency the Christian-right was a piece that could not be missing.

BUT...Trump was a disrupter (useful A$$ho) and Pence saw an opportunity that might achieve some of his goals and the goals of people who endorsed him, and there was no other avenue. IMO he made a pragmatic decision and threw-in with Trump. We live in a twisted, factionalized and fragmented society. A view of that and Pence is in the eye of the beer holder.

On a brighter note DiSantis is "Trump with a brain."
And none of the porn star, Billy-bus baggage comes in the deal.

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Originally Posted by Sunset Poet
But when commanded by Trump to thwart long established procedures, he stuck with his principals and said no.

That's the problem with Pence... He knew exactly what Trump was all about, but he had his own agenda and worked against Trump. Pence is a "company man", a pro-establishment "go along to get along" puppet.

RvW was an easy win. Even the Dems were tired of the RvW argument, it never should have been a federal issue to begin with.

Everyone keeps perpetuating the notion that Trump is the "problem". But that's just the strategy of the Dems and the liberal fake media. Since their strategy is working, what makes you think they would switch gears for DeSantis?

They fear Trump now because he's "been there". He knows the names and knows the game, and no matter how hard they try... they can't get rid of him. Perhaps DeSantis is an obvious choice for VP. I'm sure THAT notion is tightening up some Dem sphincters!

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We do warm well enough on our own Marty

And while I admit you learned your lesson in 1812, because unlike other places in the world , you have never crossed our borders again in aggression, to now say Canada is what it is mostly because of our isolation and 2023tonneGorrilamonster is I expect meant tongue in cheek. Isolation yes, until recent decades as international trade and travel and communication nixed that.

But we to say are who we are because the USA has not invaded us....or because you protect us from your\our .....enemies ....which can be complex or simple .....????

As for statistics, World Economic Forum ranks US consistently high and higher than Canada in their metrics...mostly competitive environment, where they keep getting beat out by the likes of Singapore and have overtaken Hong Kong since China took it over. Canada is a meagre 13th, behind much of Europe and the likes of Japan and just behind Taiwan and just ahead of South Korea





.

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Originally Posted by John Voorpostel
We do warm well enough on our own Marty

And while I admit you learned your lesson in 1812, because unlike other places in the world , you have never crossed our borders again in aggression, to now say Canada is what it is mostly because of our isolation and 2023tonneGorrilamonster is I expect meant tongue in cheek. Isolation yes, until recent decades as international trade and travel and communication nixed that.

But we to say are who we are because the USA has not invaded us....or because you protect us from your\our .....enemies ....which can be complex or simple .....????

As for statistics, World Economic Forum ranks US consistently high and higher than Canada in their metrics...mostly competitive environment, where they keep getting beat out by the likes of Singapore and have overtaken Hong Kong since China took it over. Canada is a meagre 13th, behind much of Europe and the likes of Japan and just behind Taiwan and just ahead of South Kore

.

John
I can point out the obvious, but I can't make you accept it or stop from coming up with any argument you can to refute it.
Such is the nature of want, denial and psychological filters.

For simplicity and the sake of your own country, consider the following:

Liberal/progressive policies
Unintended consequences
cultural cohesion
personal safety

YOUR country greatly outranks MY country in cultural cohesion and personal safety. Heed the warnings and realize that you may be in favor of policies that will destroy those things. Good luck. I hope you progressive Canadians ultimately save yourselves from yourselves. In the US, I think that war is lost and just grinding towards an ending.

Your country is a de facto protectorate of the 800 pound gorilla. If we never existed and Spain/Mexico was your southern border, you may not have survived. Once again, you're welcome.

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SP Wrote

Try not to mess up a good thing by voting for degenerative liberal policies up there, and promoting them down here, where I live. Over my lifetime, I've watched such policies undo the US rankings in a lot of categories, education being foremost. Now our cities are laboratories for destructive liberal policies with no bottom in sight. Heed the warnings.

Marty, all the"good things"have pretty much all been passed into law by Liberals,for over 100 years ...why would Canadians not want to vote for Liberals...this is another instance of your lack of understanding of some basic things about us. You just may be a little bit over your head here, Marty...Canadians are not polarized in their voting ...we usually vote in Liberal Governments...we also have a multi party form of Government here, which goes a long way to reigning in the Libs when they get to be too arrogant..we love minority Govs...we will also destroy en masse any Gov that goes too far..just ask Brian Mulroney/Kim Campbell....do yourself a favour and begin to back a third party...watch how the left and the right have to pass legislation for all the people and not just their team...trust me it works

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Trump is the only reason anybody knows Mike Pence.

I think Pence is like any other Republican, who wanted a Republican in office. And in his case helped himself into the spotlight. Now it's convenient to talk.

Dems call Trump disgusting and vile which he is, but if he was Dem that would be overlooked.

Leads back to my point ...party first details later.

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Steve

Canada is a lovely and reasonably culturally cohesive community of 38.5 million people nestled north of a country of 332 million people, which has the foremost military weaponry in the world. You are a de facto protectorate that gets to operate under a protective umbrella that you don't want to recognize. The fallacy of such arrangements is that the protectorate gets to enact whatever policies it wants...and everything seems to work great...until the wrong-headedness stacks up too tall and it quits working.

As I said, heed the warnings.

My favorite city to visit in North America used to be SanFran. Now it is Vancouver. Vancouver has taller mountains, a lovelier sound and much less vagrants crapping on the streets. SanFran is a liberal bastion.

Heed the warnings

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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Trump is the only reason anybody knows Mike Pence.

I think Pence is like any other Republican, who wanted a Republican in office. And in his case helped himself into the spotlight. Now it's convenient to talk.

Dems call Trump disgusting and vile which he is, but if he was Dem that would be overlooked.

Leads back to my point ...party first details later.

Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder sometimes.

When Julius Caesar was moving south with his army, an ordinary citizen of Rome had a choice to support Julius (disrupter populist) or the Roman Senate (corrupt establishment). Both choices sucked then ...and such choices often suck now. When you find a perfect world, send me a post card. I'd like to visit.

Gotta go. Client meeting at noon today. xoxo

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Your country is a de facto protectorate of the 800 pound gorilla. If we never existed and Spain/Mexico was your southern border, you may not have survived. Once again, you're welcome.

The very essence of self importance...but then not unexpected...this may be your personal opinion, and I hope that is all it is, but I believe the vast majority of American people see Canada differently, Marty...defend your greatness, not through might and bravado, but through such things as compassion, understanding that there are different ways to accomplish things, kindness etc

Last edited by VNORTH2; 03/12/23 12:11 PM.

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Originally Posted by VNORTH2
Your country is a de facto protectorate of the 800 pound gorilla. If we never existed and Spain/Mexico was your southern border, you may not have survived. Once again, you're welcome.

The very essence of self importance...but then not unexpected...this may be your personal opinion, and I hope that is all it is, but I believe the vast majority of American people see Canada differently, Marty...defend your greatness, not through might and bravado, but through such things as compassion, understanding that there are different way to accomplish things, kindness etc

Things are what they are Steve. It is not a slam on Canada to think as I do. It is Canada's good fortune and would be the envy of many countries to have their geo/political position on the map. I get the many things that you like about your country.

My next vacation will either be Florence/Dubrovnik/Athens OR ...Old Town Quebec, NH, VT. Can't wait to come up.

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Vnorth, please don't go into a Canada is great, American sucks diatribe.

We had several Canadians on this forum and others who Always mouthed off about America, had so much interest in American politics, and you could tell they didn't like us.

Not saying thats you. But while America has alot of problems and we let clowns run it, still no other place in the world id rather live. Maybe vacation, but not live.

And you won't win your arguments here.

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I too prefer Willie to Celine but she did out sell him 4 to 1

The best female singer voted by the Canadian public was not Celine....It was K.D.Lang...now there's a voice

go figure

Steve


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I prefer Neil Young or Brian Adams.

But this is America so I'm gonna go with Bruuuuuucccee, Tom Petty.

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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Vnorth, please don't go into a Canada is great, American sucks diatribe.

We had several Canadians on this forum and others who Always mouthed off about America, had so much interest in American politics, and you could tell they didn't like us.

Not saying thats you. But while America has alot of problems and we let clowns run it, still no other place in the world id rather live. Maybe vacation, but not live.

And you won't win your arguments here.

I'm sorry...did I say Canada was great? Or America sucks? I did quote stats and I have said before at JPF that there is no other country I would ever want to have as a neighbour than the USA ...I have lived in the US, have relatives in the US and have owned several properties in the US and spent much of my life travelling through your country...I only speak of American politics from in depth studying of your country for over 60 years..in fact I was planning to retire in Fort Myers Beach until I had a stroke and was diagnosed with diabetes a few years ago ...which made it not feasible to do so because of our universal health care system in Canada...it doesn't cost me anything when I get sick up here....also I'm not sure Fort Myers Beach even exists now...so sad

I can handle myself in any debate but I just put out the facts for others to digest and let them decide...what I will always push back against are opinions put out as if they are facts and are to be believed...go back to my first post on this thread at the very beginning and you will see what I mean...if we don't push back..it begins to grab hold... ergo 2020 election

Steve

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There have been Canadians who has similar thoughts to you. I did say I'm not saying it's you either.

But then folks worked my last nerve.

It's like my older brother if he called me stupid or annoying it was ok , if somebody else did there was a fight.

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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
There have been Canadians who has similar thoughts to you. I did say I'm not saying it's you either.

But then folks worked my last nerve.

It's like my older brother if he called me stupid or annoying it was ok , if somebody else did there was a fight.

Just so you understand, I have, in my entire life, never personally put down the USA and didn't do that here, and have been a staunch defender of your country and I am neither lib/con/dem/rep...which I think most people don't get that....and I have been a student of politics all my life mostly US and don't care who is in power here or there because nothing changes regardless of who is running the show..... and yes I have heard many Canadians put down the US many times...they just don't get how strong the connection is between the 2 countries at a grassroots level

....but I did think Trump was a jerk..LOL

Steve

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That's a given. His son is even worse

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LOL FD you've quoted that older\younger brother right to say things before in discussions...

Just because we might have a strong opinion about a particular issue does not mean we hate you.
Just because you are mad at your kid does not mean they are a bad person
It just means they are behaving badly, at odds with acceptable standards

Who sets those? We all do....based on our individual lives, experiences etc..


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Originally Posted by JAPOV
Originally Posted by Sunset Poet
But when commanded by Trump to thwart long established procedures, he stuck with his principals and said no.

That's the problem with Pence... He knew exactly what Trump was all about, but he had his own agenda and worked against Trump. Pence is a "company man", a pro-establishment "go along to get along" puppet.

RvW was an easy win. Even the Dems were tired of the RvW argument, it never should have been a federal issue to begin with.

Everyone keeps perpetuating the notion that Trump is the "problem". But that's just the strategy of the Dems and the liberal fake media. Since their strategy is working, what makes you think they would switch gears for DeSantis?

They fear Trump now because he's "been there". He knows the names and knows the game, and no matter how hard they try... they can't get rid of him. Perhaps DeSantis is an obvious choice for VP. I'm sure THAT notion is tightening up some Dem sphincters!

I just noticed this Tony. I don't have a direct response for you at the moment. But I did want to mention that I looked at your avatar pic and noticed a purple stain on your lips. Might wanna take care of that and shoot a new pic.

Marty

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For anyone interested, the video below is long and full of filler but seems to give a plausible overview of AI and singers.

A plausible theory of future songwriting is that millions of people who can't write, play an instrument or sing will rattle song ideas (parameters) into AI programs and generate billions of songs that will compete for attention and glory. It won't matter that there will be no humans involved in the actual execution of the song...just whether a song is appealing on some level or not.

Fd, I know that you contend that humans can never go away in this process. But I question that. Or one human in one place being recreated as a hologram surrogate in 100 others.

Time will tell.


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I'm familiar with most of the material in this video but not that Chinese singer--I don't know what the real singer sounded like but the replication was free of any robotic nuance and gave me goosebumps.

I love the video's narrator Elizabeth Zharoff's cosmic "yes" about all the possibilities of AI that sings. Just the right amount of concern for the legal implications as well.

I messed around with Holly Herndon's "Holly+" online software last year. Found it hard to get really clean results, but I honestly didn't try too hard:

https://holly.plus/

Just upload an audio file of an a cappella of your voice and it will be replaced by hers.

I love that she mentions Yamaha Vocaloid and singing synths like the popular anime recording artist mentiioned. Vocaloid has been around for over a decade and it's a software stepping stone to the current state of singing AI.

I have used many VST virtual (sample based) instrument/singers over the years. The problem, other than mostly being vowel sounds, has been getting convincing "legato" singing, where the transitions from note-to-note sound realistic. Only the more recent ones seem to have figured out how to do this well.

No mention of OpenAI Jukebox, though. A project abandoned by OpenAI in 2021, but I have recently figured out how to get cleaner sounding results from it and though I couldn't recreate Pavarotti (he's missing from the lists of 5000+ singers/bands) I could recreate Andrea Bocelli singing any combination of words and it wouldn't be hard, just time consuming. I have been doing this with the AI "faux" versions of other recording artists such as Tori Amos, Jim Morrison, etc.

Elizabeth Zharoff doesn't think that singing AI will replace singers and neither do I. I think they can live side-by-side though, at some point in the future.

I DO think, though, that there will eventually be a Coke commercial with singing AI cuz there will probably be a "novelty phase" when singing AI gets really good and everyone will be awed by it for awhile 'til they move on to the next thing to be awed by, occupying about as much time and space in the human psyche as did the hula hoop in the late Fifties: we need to keep in mind that singing AI will just not matter much to most people, while "talking AI" and fake news could affect everyone.

Anyone with an interest in singing AI will enjoy watching this entertaining and informative video. Thanks for uploading it, Marty.

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Sorry that "thanking you" for uploading Zharoff's video occurred to me as an afterthought, Marty. Great video.

Thanks again.

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Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Sorry that "thanking you" for uploading Zharoff's video occurred to me as an afterthought, Marty. Great video.

Thanks again.

Not a concern Michael. Nonetheless thanks for showing concern. wink

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I wonder just how dangerous this could be in the hands of unscrupulous people, scam artist and the likes. We can no longer believe a photo any more because they can be doctored, now we can no longer believe the voice on the other end of a phone call, even if we can see the caller.. Demo singers can be put out of work, music creators, especially for ads, can be replaced by AI, even lyric writers for songs. God gives gifts to people, where are these gifts coming from and why, what purpose do they serve other than replace the gifts given to real people. Will people make idols of robots, not that making idols of people is a good thing. Will they also make robots to play sports, just where will it end.

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Originally Posted by Everett Adams
God gives gifts to people, where are these gifts coming from and why, what purpose do they serve other than replace the gifts given to real people. .

All of those thoughts, skills and talents have been mathematically deciphered, and then collectively installed into a virtual world, possibly kicking a lot of humans to the curb. I tell you what Everett...I don't have the capacity and position to make vast and accurate conclusions about civilization...but even from the limited vantage where I sit, it does not look like the human race has evolved enough to handle AI in a responsible way.

The richest and nastiest amongst us will be in the biggest hurry to gain control and use it for their purposes.

I don't know, just wonder.

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Originally Posted by Everett Adams
I wonder just how dangerous this could be in the hands of unscrupulous people, scam artist and the likes. We can no longer believe a photo any more because they can be doctored, now we can no longer believe the voice on the other end of a phone call, even if we can see the caller.. , just where will it end.

https://www.mediaite.com/news/killi...hotos-of-cops-nailing-and-jailing-trump/

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Ultimately, I believe most folks will be forced to become more critical of media they consume, which is a good thing, I think.

Remember when email was new? Scammers abounded, still do, but back then lots of gullible people lost a lot of money. Then people got wiser, got more critical, learned how to spot spam, and email providers added filters to spot spam.

Email was not banned just because some people abused it. Should AI as a tool for the Arts and Sciences be banned? Stopping AI progress seems to me like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Don't get me wrong, I agree, advanced AI will be VERY dangerous in the hands of people behaving badly, those who don't value "truth" as much as personal gain. But I also believe that Law can catch up to tech and find an approach that deals with transgressions appropriately. Also, keep in mind that tech that spots AI fakery will be advancing right behind tech. Hopefully, not too far behind!

And in the meantime, we get educated, or we get duped.

Leave it to the artists and scientists of this world to counter the bad that can happen with AI. So much more good can come from it than bad, I believe. New, wonderful art, and forms of art, cures for diseases...just sayin'...

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 03/22/23 04:24 PM.

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Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
But I also believe that Law can catch up to tech and find an approach that deals with transgressions appropriately.

Sorry for being the doubter Mike.
Look at the SEC right now. SVB is the only bank that has come to serious light so far.
Look at the in-your-face corruption by the ruling elites in the uni-party. e.g. Biden & his brother, & his drug addict son, drug addict son's ex- girlfriend / widowed wife of deceased brother...all of whom have received mystery checks from Chinese energy firms (and misc others) for only one commodity...access to special favors of our govt. ... as BIden stepped on the necks of domestic producers. When Biden is asked about it, he basically just says..."FU, you're nobody and don't matter."

The law isn't functional any more. It's just words on pages somewhere.

"Tech" doesnt fear and obey honest politicians who strive for the common good. For 2 reasons....

#1 They buy them and tell them what to do, leaving them to contrive various lines of $hit with skillful lying that politics requires. That's the actual core skill set for a congressman or senator anymore.
# 2 Like Santa Claus and the Easter bunny, honest politicians who strive for the common good do not actually exist. They are narcissists who like limousines and the celebrity lifestyle and want to cash in.

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Originally Posted by Sunset Poet
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
But I also believe that Law can catch up to tech and find an approach that deals with transgressions appropriately.

Sorry for being the doubter Mike.
Look at the SEC right now. SVB is the only bank that has come to serious light so far.
Look at the in-your-face corruption by the ruling elites in the uni-party. e.g. Biden & his brother, & his drug addict son, drug addict son's ex- girlfriend / widowed wife of deceased brother...all of whom are receiving mystery checks from Chinese energy firms. When Biden is asked about it, he basically just says..."FU, you're nobody and don't matter."

The law isn't functional any more. It's just words on pages somewhere.

"Tech" doesnt fear and obey honest politicians who strive for the common good. For 2 reasons....

#1 They buy them and tell them what to do, leaving them to contrive various lines of $hit with skillful lying that politics requires. That's the actual core skill set for a congressman or senator anymore.
# 2 Like Santa Claus and the Easter bunny, honest politicians who strive for the common good do not actually exists. They are narcissists who like limousines and the celebrity lifestyle.

I don't disagree with any of what you say.

Like I said, I believe Law can catch up to tech, meaning, it's not there right now, for sure. I'm an optimist because I use AI in a "good way" and think there is more good than bad that will come from it. But again, I am admitting to having a vested interest.


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Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Like I said, I believe Law can catch up to tech, meaning, it's not there right now, for sure. I'm an optimist because I use AI in a "good way" and think there is more good than bad that will come from it. But again, I am admitting to having a vested interest.

Sorry Mike. I genuinely appreciate you and your desire to see the best in a situation...but sometimes there is no best. This country is in that place. And if the national debt + the everything bubble causes a major contraction....aint seen nothing yet.

We can hope for the best

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We're good, Marty.

Originally Posted by Sunset Poet
And if the national debt + the everything bubble causes a major contraction....aint seen nothing yet.

True, but sometimes when problems reach "critical mass" those problems are met with more force. Sometimes not. With each new advancement in tech and AI, so many more nuanced complications are added to the mix, and it's hard to SEE those problems, let alone know how to deal with them.

Part of my optimism comes from knowing there's "no stopping progress" without a form of tyranny, or amendng The Constitution, or both. IOW, part of my optimism is also just "wishful thikning" if I am honest, cuz I don't want to be in that head space that you seem to inhabit: fearing that (more) bad stuff is going to happen and there's nothing anyone can do about it, if I am reading you correctly. wink

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 03/22/23 05:28 PM.

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Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
We're good, Marty.
Part of my optimism comes from knowing there's "no stopping progress" without a form of tyranny, or amendng The Constitution, or both.

Or the collapse of an economic system that glues everything together. The mismanagement of the US treasury started with W and it has not played all the way out yet. Obama was a fairly level headed steward but it stagnated under him. Trump + covid made it a runaway train with the temporary illusion that stability had been achieved. And now Biden is George III and the debt is 32 trillion. Things wouldnt be any worse if we picked a random 8 year old for president.



Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Part of my optimism comes from knowing there's "no stopping progress" without a form of tyranny, or amendng The Constitution, or both. IOW, part of my optimism is also just "wishful thinking" if I am honest, cuz I don't want to be in that head space that you seem to inhabit: fearing that bad stuff is going to happen and there's nothing anyone can do about it, if I am reading you correctly. wink

Mike, there is my head space and there is the reality that would go on if I had never been born. Things are as they are.
We agree that trend line of civilization's progress is an ascension. But it pauses now and then. Had the Roman Empire not devolved into feudalism and there not been a pause to the renaissance, there might have been a man on the moon centuries ago.

I don't want the last few years of my life to be lived out in a broken down world, but the reality is that there are pieces in place making that a possibility. And the nations possessing the most destructive military machines to ever exist have entered a new era of tension between them.
I hope your optimism prevails. I' m wary.

It's important to identify problems correctly to fix them. Someone can believe that a pit bull is actually a pony, but that will end poorly if he or she tries to actually mount and ride it.

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