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In Rev. 12:9, Satan is called ��the ancient serpent�the one deceiving the whole world.� This has been true since the Garden of Eden, when he deceived Eve into believing she would not die if she ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.
We can see the results, especially in the fruits of fraudulent religion over many thousands of years. Worship of lifeless idols made with human hands. All in vain. Human sacrifices and countless other atrocities in God�s name.
Lies are a counterfeit form of communication that spread in much the same way as the truth, but with a seemingly higher rate of infection. Winston Churchill once said, �A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth gets a chance to put its pants on.�
Have you ever been disappointed by a news report that days later was exposed as a complete lie? Or sat down to watch a TV show where plotlines and characters seemed designed to promote an ideology rather than deliver entertainment?
This is neither a partisan nor a new complaint. This phrase appears in the poetic liner notes to a Bob Dylan cd: �Dishonest garbage in popular magazines�. The cd�s title? World Gone Wrong.

In the late 1960s through the 70s, promotion and tolerance of illegal drugs was a staple of popular music. Several notable singers and musicians died as a result of this ideology. Songs and movies of that era romanticized or even glorified outlaws.
�Every cop is a criminal and all the sinners, saints�. Sound familiar? It�s from Sympathy for the Devil, recorded in 1968.

Yet, as a form of communication, lies are most effective when they have speedy conduits, preferably many of them. Not only that, but recipients, willing recipients, who then pass on the lie.
The Apostle Paul put it this way: �For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. They will reject the truth and chase after myths.� (2 Tim. 4:3,4)

Modern media outlets and electronic forms of communication are too numerous to mention. Anyone who wants confirmation of what they wish to believe can find it in seconds on their phone. But what is true today may not be true tomorrow.
In most cases.

Notice these verses written circa 60 AD: �It was near the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius, the Roman emperor. Pilate was governor over Judea, Herod Antipas was ruler over Galilee, his brother Philip was ruler over Iturea and Trachonitis; Lysanias was ruler over Abilene, Annas and Caiaphas were the high priests�� (Luke 3:1,2).
The verses are very specific regarding times and places, as well as names of rulers, both political and religious. Factually, those verses have stood the test of many centuries.
Why?
Because Jesus said, ��your word is truth.� (John 17:17 New King James Version)

Although the Bible began to be written nearly 3500 years ago, it is completely reliable today, both as history, and as a spiritual diamond mine. A small example is in Romans 16:23: �Erastus, the city treasurer sends you his greetings.�
Romans was written by Paul in the Greek city of Corinth. A large Latin inscription in the pavement by the Corinthian theater reads: �Erastus, in return for his aedileship laid the pavement at his own expense�.
An �aedile� was one elected to oversee city finances.
Details like this give us confidence that what the Bible says about Jesus Christ is accurate, as well. The one spoken of in John 14:6 as ��the way, the truth and the life�.

If Churchill had actually said that, he would have said, "trousers." (Although his mother was American, mind you)

I don't think the fact that Paul knew who the aedile was is an indication that what he was writing on non-aedile-related issues was the truth . Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson correctly identify numerous people in government positions.

To be clear, I'm not saying that he wasn't writing the truth, just that this is not a particularly strong piece of evidence regarding anything more than that the bible (or at least the parts you cite) was indeed written by real people in a real historical context and not just made up out of thin air. I don't think it says a lot either way about the truth of the theological message. The Koran also references plenty of real historical people, places and events.

That's a fair point but it is an indication that what was in the rest of his letter was true, and his living audience received it that way. The same with Luke and events recorded in three other accounts of Jesus' ministry, crucifixion and resurrection. The Roman census recorded by Luke actually caused Jesus to be born in Bethlehem, fulfilling Micah 5:2, written hundreds of years before. No other collection of holy writings can point to prophetic fulfillments like that in conjunction with secular history. See Luke 2:1-7 and the amount of detail provided there.

The account of Erastus is VERY strong evidence that the ancient letter of Romans is truthful.

As far as the media is concerned, (represented by you as Tucker and Hannity), they have promoted an overwhelming amount of hoaxes and false narratives in just the past 10 years, resulting in polls that show very little confidence in the media. Christianity exploded in its early years, despite persecution from Rome and the Jews, showing strong confidence in the Apostles' and others' eyewitness testimony about Jesus. (Acts 2:22, 32, 1st Corinthians 15: 3-8)

How many people do you know would testify under penalty of beheading that Jussie Smollett was attacked after midnight, in below zero temperatures, in Chicago, by two guys in MAGA hats who just happened to have a noose?

Regarding the Koran, the Bible was written over a period of 1500 years by 40 different authors and yet still displays a remarkable thematic unity. No other book can claim that. Furthermore, Islam is an Abrahamic religion, which is a confirmation of much of the Bible, not a refutation of it.

That's all I'll say on that subject publicly, because frankly, I've got a family to care for. And the fact that people feel free to criticize The Bible is a strong argument in its favor.

You could also read Matthew 7:15-20. Then ask yourself when was the last time Wheel of Fortune gave away a free trip to Mogadishu? Or Kabul? Or Baghdad?

Well, the most essential difference between the Koran (didnt know you could spell it that way), is that The Koran states that Jesus was taken down from the cross, or that he was ascended into Heaven Bodily. Those are some essential details, and an entire religion can be made out of that one basic difference.

Your comment about modern media can also apply to The Bible, anybody who wants to find truth in it can, anyone who doesnt want to wont.

Same could be said for Scientology.... that wacko religion.

What puzzles me is why did the Bible stop being written. Didnt anything happen in the last 2000 years worth writing down?

Find worthwhile truth in the Jussie Smollett hoax. Your objections are clearly answered in my previous posts.

The New Testament was written by contemporaries and eyewitnesses of Jesus' ministry, death and resurrection. As already stated, Micah states where the Messiah would be born hundreds of year prior. Luke records it along with historical details. Luke 2:1-7. The Koran was written hundreds of years later. George Martin's testimony of Sgt. Pepper's recording sessions are more trustworthy than those that might be written hundreds of years from now, especially if they significantly contradict his account. Any detective would agree. Your logic is flawed and you have nothing to bolster your claims. Until you produce it (and I don't mean a link), your posts here mean little.

Most of the distrust in the media is the result of deliberate attempts to sow that distrust in a largely successful effort to obliterate the very concept of truth. It's the most fundamental problem of our times because it undermines efforts to tackle the biggest problems we face, such as climate change, disease, migration and the preservation of democracy, but that's not really what you started out discussing here. I don't know why you have to be so aggressively dismissive toward FD. His remarks on this subject are every bit as valid as yours.

Thats just Couchs way of being a good Christian. It's a bit like his songs, the only answer is "Wonderful"

He takes it personally as If im out to get him.

God created doubt , just as he created wisdom and faith, and jealousy and humility, and beauty and knockers, Im just utilizing one of HIS gifts.

The more you know about God, the less you know. Im not knocking his writing, im not even knocking his arguments, im just giving another side of the coin.

Jessie Smollet is one thing, The Covid crisis is another. We still got morons telling people not to take the vaccine, and the pandemic is still going on, yet something two thousand years ago is as perfectly clear as a bell.

Perhaps asking God for some insight is not such a crime is it?

Gavin, I've answered all of FD's objections over and over again on all these topics. That's the opposite of being dismissive. Furthermore, he shows up on many of my posts with no objective other than to argue and has done this for nearly 20 years across more than one website.

I answered your questions, which you didn't acknowledge.

I disagreed that the same comments can be made about the Bible as the media and gave a solid example. Find worthwhile truth in the Jussie Smollett hoax.

The media has promoted dozens of hoaxes in just the last decade.

Brett Kavanagh.
The Covington kids.
Numerous race hoaxes.

That's why they're untrustworthy.

His comment about the Koran's account of Jesus' death wasn't valid at all, as I clearly pointed out. Neither of you responded to what I said.

I expected questions when I started posting these articles and I'm prepared to answer them as I think I've demonstrated.

FD just wants to argue and I'm not obligated to always answer like he's a daisy. You can read Jesus, Paul and Peter's debates for yourselves in the Gospels and Acts, which I'd recommend you'd do. At least then you'd be objecting to a book you'd read.

So you post for praise, without anybody analyzing what you write? Get outta town.... I thought you were looking for commentary, not accolades, cause frankly your arguments are weak.

You have never addressed my objections, you simply say because you said so. The Bible is the only source you use. what if The Bible is wrong? Then you have nothing, whereas we still know The Moon is up there.

Spirituality will never be based on fact, they are incongruent. If somebody says have faith in me, you base that on how believable their story is, or their devotion is. How many generations removed from the anonymous people who wrote The Bible is it now 40? say 50 ?

Covid, today

You know alot about the Bible, more than I do, no doubt about that.

But nobody here thinks you are convincingly "winning" this debate. I know... it's not a debate, its you citing facts

ahhh Geez

Why on earth would you think I hadn't read the Gospels and Acts? You're just being a jerk. If you are a Christian and not just someone who likes to try to strut his knowledge of the scriptures, you could start with some humility and maybe even a little cheek turning toward others, including FD in this instance. Whatever your previous encounters with him may have been, there was nothing in his response here to provoke your reaction. You are just perpetuating the ill feeling.

I replied to your reply. Do you really need me to specifically acknowledge that you answered my questions? That's weirdly needy. I'm going to ignore your ridiculously selective list of "hoaxes." They are what I would expect, so, rather than risk injury with a forehead slap, I will content myself with a wry chuckle, a muttered mild expletive and an eye roll.

Cause he takes it personally as I said, if somebody doubts what he wrote, thems fighting words. It then calls into question his authority. Have you ever seen him once admit he's wrong about anything? it has never happened.

He doesnt even consider WHY there might be a ongoing battle, he just sees it as the enemy never ceases.

But no matter what the topic, he is right. and if you continue with your point then out come the insults.

Fairly predictable, but this bit wasnt very good anyway.

Some of his songs are ok, some stink. What are you gonna do?

The fact that religion and politics have become so muddled together, and have made adversaries of us all, is yet proof of the validity of God's prophetic Truth; And of the insidious nature and influence of that ancient serpent, the "Father Of Lies" Satan, who's name actually means "adversary".

For this reason, I won't bother to comment on your use of conservative Christian spokesmen as examples of harbingers of "hoaxes and false narratives"... But I will remind you that Satan didn't just tempt Eve with "The knowledge of both good and evil". He did so by convincing her that such knowledge would make her "As God", which of course was an appeal to her human vanity... and Adam was no wiser.

These articles have nothing to do with my knowledge of the Bible. Which is minimal, I assure you. Had I wanted attention, I'd have posted in the General Comments section.

Whether my list of media hoaxes was selective is irrelevant. It was accurate and by no means exhaustive. There was the Dan Rather hoax. Brian Williams ' apparent delusions, NBC killing the Harvey Weinstein story, Amy Robach on tape complaining that ABC killed her Jeffrey Epstein story. And that's from memory before my morning coffee at 6AM.

Their motivations might have been political but my reasons for listing them weren't. The Bible, though written 1000s of years ago, is far more trustworthy than the modern media. The Bible honestly and frankly depicts its characters, the media does not.

My experience with FD absolutely informs how I treat him. How could it not? His posts on my topics at Toonsmith were so obsessive, my wife thought he was a creepy stalker. There's a reason he's been banned and has to change his name periodically.

Let's try this...the next time I post here, he could just not show up.

But that will likely not happen. He doesn't know anything about the Koran but he'll Google something on Wikipedia so he'll have something to argue about.

Let's see which of those two scenarios plays out.

So only people who will say GREAT can show up.

What a Jabroni. Bring your wife to the forum, since she is such an astute observer of the forums.

Anybody who challenges Couchgrouch's posts are "Stalkers" See the arrogance in that?

For either they see the masterful thought process, or they are just trouble makers .

And he still doesnt comprehend WHY somebody would want to get up in his face, cause he insults and degrades anybody who doesnt allow him to be the authority on all things. Remember his ramblings about Covid? He told several people here they had a bad cold and didnt have covid, and insisted that it was a hoax and a cult, and he was so wrong but hell still claim he was right

As far as stalkers you might have the wrong guy, i still talk to people on the site and they all enjoyed me, i made it fun for them is what Im told. And there isnt anybody who doesnt think you're a total tool. Many people got tired of you berrating anybody who didnt worship your work, and that is why you had more people NOT worshipping it. Once i logged off a forum im done looking at it till the next time, its not a part of my life.

Your arguments are based on the BIble. You just said The Bible is more trustworthy than anything today. How? Because its so long ago nobody knows what really happened, and therefore it must be true? Your eye witnessess...so the PEOPLE who WROTE the BIBLE, say they were eyewitnesses.

Hey Couchgrouch...how do you know what happened in the bible really happened?
CG I said it before and Ill say it again... cause it says in that very BIBLE that they saw it.

Ive explained it over and over again, people saw it!

Somebody also said they saw Smollet get attacked...

Not sure if this was in response to me, Tony, but I would hardly call Hannity or Carlson Christian LOL. I chose them as extreme examples of liars being able to correctly name contemporary public figures. I could have chosen others, but they are the most obvious and egregious and familiar to everyone.

Well... Let's just say I've heard them profess their faith more often than you Gavin...

What's worse though professing faith and being a bser, or not professing faith at all?

Yes, I'm sure they profess it all over the place. It's convenient for them to do so and good for ratings in their target demographic. Their behavior speaks otherwise, as does that of a lot of that target demographic.

Alot of Christians probably dont trust those guys, it's more that they are happy legislation might be writ based on Christian beliefs, more than them actually proving to be good Christians. They all knoew what Trump was about.

Remember when Bill Oreilly claimed God inspired him to write the book Killing Jesus?

Gavin, Carlson and Hannity identifying government officials was hardly the point I was making and that's more than obvious. Yours is a straw man objection.

When Carlson or Hannity write similar accounts of a Messiah who heals the sick, raises the dead, teaches unlike any other, is crucified and Himself raised by God., and those accounts are rooted in contemporaneous events that people aware of them
are inspired to live and die for that Messiah because they find those accounts trustworthy, THEN you'll have an analogy.

What you have now is a false equivalence.

Furthermore, if Hannity and Carlson are the liars you say they are, that only goes to MY point...compared to The Bible, the media isn't trustworthy.

The only reason The Bible seems trustworthy, is because there is no way to google what actually happened, whereas you can with just about anything anybody says today.

Horrible comparsion.

https://www.nytimes.com/1981/02/15/nyregion/a-miracle-worker-visits-north-jersey.html

https://unsolvedmysteries.fandom.com/wiki/Reverend_Ralph_DiOrio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMTAZDBC6_o

I post these two pieces for a reason, I didnt see Father Ralph when he came to NJ in 81, I saw him when he was in Brooklyn sometime in the 90's.

I went with a friend, a Jesuit priest and myself. We were very interested and heard lots about him. There have been reports by people all over the world that he had healed them of various ailments. I remember going and feeling a tremendous sense of peace, he seemed llke the real deal to me, he was a priest so not a civilian making money, at least not that much.

And he never claimed to have any power at all, he always gave the praise to Jesus and said he was just an instrument.

I watched with my own eyes several people collapsing, which they say if you truly "slain" you wont be injured, some of them made LOUD thuds when they hit the ground. Hed asked somebody, "Why have you come" "I've come because I have cancer" And hed pt his hands on them and then say they were freed of cancer. Nobody really knew

I didnt see somebody get out of a wheel chair, or suddenly reverse anything, myself, but others claim they did see people with cerebral palsy walk out normally, and cripples start walking again. Forr me I saw nothing way unusual, nor did i get the impression there was any hoax going on, he himself said he doesnt control when it will happen.

Long story short, Ive seen him three times. But to date, there is NO evidence he ever healed anybody, other than people saying it happened. I will say it oved me, and tells you ho wmuch suffering there is in this world, but the facts dont support it. Some say I dont care what any scientist says, he healed me, i feel great!

You know, its very subjective and personal. In Jesus time there was ZERO medical or scientific evidence that he healed anybody, but who can really say for sure.

It's a personal and spiritual thing. But you know Couchgrouch would scoff at this, and say it was all bologna.

But I can tell you he HAS and had millions of believers, and I found him to be at least legitimate

There is a nun named Sister Briege Mckenna from Ireland too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAazILsm9JU

Did you see giggling Kamala on TV yesterday Gavin? Man, she really stirred MY spirit... lol

This may seem a little "off topic", but I hope not...

Faith is a lot more than just believing there is a God. In fact, John says anyone who would deny God and Christ is simply a liar. Faith is more about acknowledging everything God has already done for you, being grateful for all that God provides for you now, and expecting God to keep His promises forever. Faith is a gift of Spirit, and even though we do constant battle with necessary evil in this life, all things culminate for the greater glory of God which will sustain us for eternity. I see it this way... The life we live now is the price we pay for the knowledge of both good and evil. We sin out of vain self serving arrogance and must be made to understand that we are not gods.

Well that's true. Some people believe in spirituality, but dont believe in a Deity. I dont think Buddahist believe in a Deity. Alot of people talk about the afterlife, but dont mention God.

But, If John told somebody, 2000 years later, from another part of the world, that, anyone who would deny Christ is a liar, they probably wouldnt heed his comments.

And if some Hindu said to you Anybody who would deny Krishna is a liar" You'd laugh and say oh well....

Faith is belief in something that is not proven to be true, it's not faith in something concrete right in front of you.

And its handed down from families and is strongest when their is something familiar about it.

If it was any other book, or religion, you wouldnt concern yourself with it, you just happen to believe the book that you know.

Youd have to think , that an all merciful God would still accept somebody no matter what religion they practice. And that we're all calling HIM by a different name.

He's all yours Grouch........

Japov, for the love of Zeus, would you try to see the light..ning?

I'm more a fan of Kratos

FD has problems with reading comprehension.

There's eyewitness testimony of Jesus' miracles by those willing to die for what they saw and heard.

JAPOV, consider these words of wisdom:

Proverbs 9: 8 "...don't bother rebuking mockery. They will only hate you."

Matthew 7: 6 "...don't give what is holy to unholy people. Don't give pearls to swine. They will trample the pearls, then turn and attack you."

1st. Timothy 4: 7 "...do not waste your time arguing over godless ideas and old wives tales. Spend your time and energy training yourself for spiritual fitness."



Let's see if FD can write his own series of articles based on independent research, detailing his spiritual beliefs. I don't think he's any more capable of that than he is capable of writing a good song.

He's just obsessed with me.

Fanatically so.


Let's see your articles, Fix/Bugsy/FD etc.

It's not a straw man objection. I was just pointing out that correctly referencing the name of a public figure doesn't really say anything either way about the ideas put forward by the person who does so. I disagreed with you on that point, which seemed to be the crux of your original post - correct incidental details adding to the trustworthiness of the main message. I used those two gentlemen as examples because they are two very obvious examples of liars. I probably should have realized that it would lead to this kind of diversion and steered clear.

Having said that, the analogy is a pretty good one, in that Carlson and Hannity do come pretty close to Paul and the Gospel writers in their virtual deification of their orange idol. Their ability to correctly identify public figures doesn't turn that crock into the Gospel truth.

You are making a false equivalence by lumping "the media" together and saying it's not trustworthy. There are liars like these two and many others, but there are honest journalists. I think you would have difficulty recognizing them, but that doesn't make them not exist.

Reading through the posts in this thread does reveal one thing. FD, with whom I have had run-ins in the past and no doubt will in the future, makes some good points, which are greeted with derision, mean spirited arrogance and malevolent taunting from the professed Christians here, who seem to take pleasure in this, presumably because they can't find a beetle to pull the legs off.

Gavin, I've dealt with this.

When Carlson and Hannity testify that a Messiah heals, teaches, raises the dead, Himself is executed then raised, then His disciples live, evangelise and die for Him, THEN you have an analogy.

Comparing the New Testament to cable news anchors supporting a politician is ludicrous.

Thanks Gavin, but I can handle this chump....

1. Bin Laden had people willing to die for him too, two of them ended up in the world trades center..You got a charasmatic guy with a word to preach, and there goes your human support. Hitler had people willing to die for him too.

Eyewitness testimony is reliable?
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/
https://www.psychologicalscience.or...timony-is-the-best-kind-of-evidence.html

I saw Elvis today, did you know that? He told me he was reading Jpfolks one day and came across this tool named Couchgrouch and said what happened to songwriting.... I SAW HIM!

There is more evidence that Father Ralph Diorio healed people then there is Jesus did. You can talk to people who claim to be cured by him, can you talk to anybody cured by Jesus?

That was embarrassingly simple.

2. I dont know who FIX is, nor do I care.

3. Still resorting to insults involving song. You write words on a paper, without the help of several people you wouldnt be able to write a song at all. and your recordings... you got 5 people against one. Keep asking Japov to record your song.... lol, as if putting words to music and melody and performing it is all "recording" it/ What did you do, write some words down?

What else ya got. Hurry though, im clearing the way for this site to be wonderful again!

Yeah'... Lol, thanks for the reminder CG. I know patience is a virtue, but my world is just too small for Dom's particular style of perpetual provocation. When tolerance becomes your weakness, then the source of your aggravation must be rebuked.

You're inadvertently arguing my point.

Hitler and Bin Laden were real people. By your argument, Jesus was, too.

I agree.

I never said Jesus wasnt a real person, im convinced of that. What im not convinced of is his miracles, and his healing the sick, and raising people from the dead.

And at very least, im not convinced of every detail of the bible being an exact account of what happened during Jesus life. Or Moses life, or whatever the story is.

Your moving the goal posts, you first argued about people willing to die for him. Lots of people have that.

Gavin.... Seriously? All I glean from this is that you're content to allow chaos full reign out of sheer hatred for Trump and all things morally Christian. Please tell me I'm wrong...

FD, your posts are really disjointed. Why are you on this topic? Write your own articles. Mention Little Steven. They'll be great.

Gavin seems to be more upset with Tucker, Hannity and Trump. None of whom I care about. He thinks they're liars? Fine. He made my point, as well. If those guys vex him that badly, he can write an article detailing their wickedness.

What either of their recent posts have to do with my article above, I don't know.

Lol, down he goes.....

You're wrong. Obviously.

He's wrong? I didnt even know what he said, but then again im sure its wrong.....

As if Trump, and letting full chaos reign are polar opposites. I think Trumps entire Presidency was chaos reigning.

He was entertaining though it has gotten quiet and boring since he left and got banned from Twitter.

Hey look, all politicians suck, but please dont link Christianity with Republican values. Its an insult to Christians and im sure an insult to many Republicans who walk the walk.

Good grief! Discussing anything with you is like wrestling with poisonous jello. I engaged with the argument you made. I pointed out a potential hole in it. That is "making your point."

I'm very familiar with the techniques you use to needle people, on full display here. I've encountered them often. Once you learn to recognize them for what they are, you can just laugh them off.

Yes, I could write an "article" as you suggest and post it here, but what kind of a pompous ass would do something like that?

Hmmmm.... If Moses had just buried his books in the desert with the ark of the covenant, and a sand storm uncovered them today, I wonder how they would be received...

If the Romans had succeeded in wiping out the early Christians and Christ was just a myth for the last 2000yrs, but the gospels were just uncovered in the old city of David today, I wonder how people would react...

Gavin, saying cable news anchors deify Trump didn't poke a hole in anything other than your credibility as a thinker.

If you're THAT upset with those guys, write something on it. Or you could prove that they deify Trump with direct, unedited quotes. Which you can't do. Your argument is preposterous on its face.

Again, I don't care about Trump, Hannity or Tucker. If you feel compelled to prove they deify Trump, do it someplace else and take FD with you.

And what exactly are you compelled to be doing here Couchgrouch?

I dismantled your eyewitness testimony argument into shambles, gave you PROOF as to why its not reliable, and you still say the earth is flat.

You have zero proof for anything in the Bible, its all faith. If you believe it, believe it, God bless you. But dont try to argue with educated people about the science and archaeology of it, its not there.

As I wrote above, once you lose your arguments then you attack the person. It always comes down to "He cant write"

Yeah, write an article...only to have him try to demean the writing of it.

This tidbit sucks, most your writing on this kind of stuff sucks, the only thing it does is invite conversation.

But you dont want conversation, your works are not designed to make anybody think, they are designed to be doctrined and praised.

You really are a lame little man. You been writing 30 years, nobody cares, one boring song after another retire already.

That's absolutely pathetic. A) Obviously they do "deify" Trump, although that was just an aside and not really relevant B) Whatever they think of Trump has nothing to do with the observation that pointed to a hole in your argument - it was that correctly referencing the aedile of the time, while certainly lending credence to the idea that the letter was composed by a real person in a real historical context does not say anything either way about the theological arguments Paul makes. Your argument is, to borrow an image you will recognize, built upon sand, at least in that respect.

And there you go with that needling technique again, zeroing in on my supposedly being that upset with H & T. You have no obligation to honestly respond to the actual point I make, and misrepresenting it is, I suppose, just you doing that thing you do. The way this thread has gone, who cares? I could keep this thing going, but arguing with you is like shooting a particularly corpulent blowfish in a very tight-fitting barrel. It would be too easy. There is no sport to it, and the bile you contain will just splatter on me. Better to take my shotgun and go home.

I commend CG for illustrating the prophetic relevance of the Bible today as an accurate historical account that has validated itself for more than 3000yrs. The fact that we still debate it's contents is not only a miracle in itself, but only serves to further his premise that the Truth has always been met with adversarial disdain. I would only add that the freedom to enjoy this debate is indeed threatened by "evil in high places" who use the media and misinformation as a weapon against civil discourse. Which, again, is prophetic Truth.

The Devil must be laughing...

If you look back through this thread, you will see where the disdain actually started. Questioning the premise of the original post is not adversarial disdain. I found it interesting enough as an idea to think about it and engage in debate. No disdain. Even FD's posts don't fall into that category until it all inevitably descends into the personal rather than being on topic. Despite what you may think, not everyone is "out to get the Christians." In fact, I don't know anyone who is, even friends who are atheists. You see enemies where there are none, which makes for some powerful songs, but probably isn't so good for your blood pressure

Gavin... Normally you're really on top of things despite your liberal leanings lol. CG mentioned several times that you and Dom were not addressing his initial post/article. So, I did.

I'm beginning to sense some real bad blood between you and Grouch... You wanna' talk about it?

Truth is the opposite of Fiction--But fiction is a heartbeat away from whats true, if you change the names to protect the innocent! Beware!!!!

Mackie

This Japov character, I tell you...

"There seems to be some bad blood, care to talk about it....":

Who is creating the bad blood? JAPOV. Just by saying that you know you are trying to start things. Cut it out already. lead by example, if believing in God gives me your sensibilty and your take on things, then I dont wanna believe in God. What kind of guitar you have? MAYBE ILL TAKE THAT....

Often times, people who believe are not happy, Ive seen very happy Buddhists and Monks who practice meditation, but rarely do I see somebody who preaches the bible being happy. Isnt it supposed to be Good News? That's what the word Gospel means, Good News.

All there seems to be are arguments, finger pointing, my God verse your God, it doesn't add up.

If you really believed The Gospel, you probably wouldn't be arguing with anyone, and smiling all the time, and loving your enemy, and loving Muslims and all people. But instead you're here, wasting all this inspiration with us idiots.

Do we really believe or is it a life line, a safeguard in case something goes wrong?

And why are we afraid of dying, why would anybody wanna live in this toxic dump, when they can be with God forever? In eternal peace, yet we stay here, shovel piles of snow, deal with the heat and humidity, argue with people online.

Read one devastating story in the news after another? Does any of that make sense? It can only be attributed to... we're not exactly sure what comes next...so no more bsin ourselves...

Gavin, sometimes insults are the only language people understand. They are powerful but then you dont trust that person any more. If he says what he really thinks when he's angry, but doesn't when h'es not, that just means he's not telling us what he really thinks most of the time.

I have an uncle who has his entire life said whatever he was thinking, with no regard of how it might hurt somebody. He once insulted a guys wife...'Thats Your Wife? You gotta be kidding me, you can do better than that lol. the guy just sat there in shock .

But who is to say who is right or wrong there, you're thinking it anyway, he feels its dishonest to not say it. In the interest of peace, we do need our filters, otherwise people would be brawling in the street every minute of the day.

But there is something to be said for sheer honesty, cause that's what you really think anyway.

LOL, no I don't want to talk about it. It might require you to take notes while I lie down on a couch and you never know what you might find on one of those.

What got me a little irritated here, apart from the dismissive tone of his remarks, is Couch's repeated insistence that I did not address his initial post when I clearly did. It's a tactic I have encountered many times before and it's why I likened a discussion with him to wrestling with jello. In discussions like these, at a certain point, it becomes useful to look beyond what someone is saying to how they are trying to make you feel by saying it. I used to let this kind of thing get me down, but it doesn't work with me any more. I might respond in kind, but I do so with a smile on my face.

I got the points, Gavin said basicly even if Paul could be proved to have written those letters, it wouldnt mean that what the letters said were true. Even if he believed it himself 100%

I could prove somebody authored a book, but i may not be able to prove as to what they said happened, happened.

I can prove OJ wrote the book. "I want to tell you" Does that mean the book is true?

We see alot more of the questioning today, because its become popular sport to immediately think who ever said something or wrote something is up to something. And we have all these tools to help us break that down. And we still have biases, some people swear by somebody, some people swear AT somebody.

The reason you dont see modern media controversy about the bible is because its so long ago anyway. There was no way in the previous thousands of years to make a real dent in it, the internet has changed the game.

And If Jesus were alive today, and doing his ministry today, he'd get some press and covergae for sure, but youd have everybody, and probably couch and Japov saying it was BS

We just didnt have that capacity when this stuff was written, and didnt for the thousands of years following it.

Im not denying Jesus lived, and I have no way to deny He was the son of God, there is just no way to prove he was either. Just cause somebody wrote HE IS THE MESSIAH, doesnt make it true.

Oh Lord, I already know I'm going to regret this redundant conversation with DomDom. Please stop me! Amen

Wheeeww, that was close!

Its only a matter of time before Japov shows up in a thread. You can set your watch to it....

Grouch does have an "air" about him, I'll give you that! He really reminds me of someone else I used to argue with a lot lol...

Dom........ Just tell me what I can do to make you happy.

....oh, I'm sorry... I thought this forum was about "Creative writing"..I guess not...you four guys go back to what you were doing...my apologies...

Ha! Now don't you start!